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Seth81
23-10-2006, 13:34
Anyway, new army list. I'll update the first page aswell.


1500pt Tzeentch
Heroes

Exalted Champion of Tzeentch (100)
Mark of Tzeentch (70), Spell Familiar (15), Halberd (4), Shield (2)
=191pts

Exalted Champion of Tzeentch (100)
Mark of Tzeentch (70), Berserker Sword (40), Shield (2)
=212pts

Core Units

12 Warriors of Tzeentch (168)
Mark of Tzeentch (20), Champion (12), Musician (6), Additional Hand Weapons (36)
=242pts

12 Warriors of Tzeentch (168)
Mark of Tzeentch (20), Champion (12), Musician (6), Additional Hand Weapons (36)
=242pts

Chariot of Tzeentch (120)
Mark of Tzeentch (20)
=140pts

Chariot of Tzeentch (120)
Mark of Tzeentch (20)
=140pts

5 Marauder Horsemen (65)
Musician (6), Flails (10)
=81pts

5 Marauder Horsemen (65)
Musician (6), Flails (10)
=81pts

6 Warhounds of Chaos (36)
=36pts

6 Warhounds of Chaos (36)
=36pts

Special Units

3 Screamers of Tzeentch (99)
=99pts

Total = 1500pts


The beserker champion will go in the chariot, and the other one will probably go in the second. Not sure. Depends how many cannons ect and if he can be used better elsewhere.

The warhounds shall just ask as meat shields for the warriors or whatever needs protecting from shooting/magic missiles.

The marauder horsemen will be flanking units but could also hunt war machines if needed to.

Screamers will do the same as before, march block/warmachine hunt.

I'll combind charges from the chaos warriors and anything else still above unit size 5.

I was considering throwing axes for the horsemen but for 20 points I'd probably get 1 round of shooting killing 2 models on average per unit.

10 Power Dice. 4 Dispel Dice.

The Beserker mage will hope to get Yellow/Orange fire. I'll try to avoid swapping out spells for red fire as it's not a stable spell and I prefer spells I can still cast in combat. So not magic missiles.

C&C Welcome.

DesertDirge
23-10-2006, 14:35
I actually love this list.. though if the scremers and charriots preform bad you might have problems.. but I wouldn't change anything.

Seth81
23-10-2006, 15:37
Thanks. If the enemy focuses on the chariots/screamers then he's ignoring the warriors. Which when combind with the exalted champs will rip apart most things.

Seth81
23-10-2006, 17:58
Bit of bumpage.

LemonPotato
23-10-2006, 18:13
Looks like a really nice list although I think that it is a bit OTT on the magic items, I would suggest that you drop the power familiar (come on you get enough dice) and also dropping the blasted standard and using these points to take another unit of screamers as war machines could be a big problem for you since you have expensive chariots.

Hope this helps,

LemonPotato

der_lex
23-10-2006, 18:15
All my comments on your old list still stand. Any army with war machines will tear this list to bits before it ever gets in combat.

EDIT: I actually hadn't seen your rather rude response to my comment in the previous thread yet. As I said, I don't like telling people to completely overhaul their list. But if a base concept doesn't work, it doesn't work. Do you think more experienced players have never tossed out a list because it simply isn't any good? Try and consider that before you throw a hissy fit over some well-implied advice.

Seth81
23-10-2006, 19:21
Looks like a really nice list although I think that it is a bit OTT on the magic items, I would suggest that you drop the power familiar (come on you get enough dice) and also dropping the blasted standard and using these points to take another unit of screamers as war machines could be a big problem for you since you have expensive chariots.

Hope this helps,

LemonPotato

Screamers are 0-1 units and the power familiar is there for an extra dispel dice...and the power dice is always nice.


All my comments on your old list still stand. Any army with war machines will tear this list to bits before it ever gets in combat.

EDIT: I actually hadn't seen your rather rude response to my comment in the previous thread yet. As I said, I don't like telling people to completely overhaul their list. But if a base concept doesn't work, it doesn't work. Do you think more experienced players have never tossed out a list because it simply isn't any good? Try and consider that before you throw a hissy fit over some well-implied advice.

Well could you prehaps post up some suggestions as to what I should do? Instead of saying scrap the whole thing it's crap. I understand certain lists just don't work, I myself have scraped countless lists but I feel this one works.

If an enemy just takes the bear minimum core units and fills the rest with warmachines he'll be screwed over 9/10 times.

Saying warmachines will rip it to bits could be said about any army. Chaos less so then others.

Prehaps I'd listen more to your points if you showed you understood the forces strengths aswell. Players need to see strengths within their forces that they might not have seen as much as they need to see it's weaknesses.

Don't take it personally, but you have to take anything anyone says on Warseer with a pinch of salt.

der_lex
23-10-2006, 22:55
Firstly, I gave you some suggestions on how to improve the list in the other thread, ie add at least one cavalry unit to your army, but you have simply chosen to ignore it. I've never said 'it's just crap'. I don't mean to put down anyone's list, I merely try to help them improve it, which should be the reason why you posted it on here in the first place, right?

Still, you asked me to elaborate, so I shall.

The strengths of the force: Assuming they use the maximum amount of dice possible per spell that they cast (as they should), you have two casters who will be able to get off two spells each per turn with the dice you have.

Each of your Chaos Warrior blocks can take on and beat just about any single unit that opposes them.

The weaknesses:

Don't overestimate your dominance in the magic phase. Tzeentch magic is great as an alternative for the shooting that Chaos lacks, or to weaken your oppont as your army closes in for the kill, but it won't win games all by itself. Also, don't expect to actually get off more than two spells in the first two turns. When facing Tzeentch, any opponent will take at least two dispel scrolls and will have enough dice to dispel one spell per turn. You'll probably end up just casting the notroiously unreliable Red Fires, or whatever spell your opponent deems negligible for that round.

The army is too slow. The Screamers will do fine against war machine crew (although that's still debatable if they come up against Dwarves), but they won't be able to do anything against enemy missile troops, who will have a field day shooting at the Chaos Warriors slugging slowly towards them.
Assuming that you get two spells off per turn (as I mentioned before, I assume your enemy will dispel one with dice and the second with the inevitable dispel scroll), you still won't be able to take out a shooting unit unless you are extremely lucky in your red fire die rolls (the more dangerous spells will be dispelled). You can send your chariots at the shooters, but they are very vulnerable to charges if sent out alone, and tned not to get enough kills in by themselves to end combat in one turn.

The army is too small. You only have five units on the field. Your opponent doesn't need '9/10ths war machines' to seriously cripple your list. Two war machines are enough to put a big hurt on your army. In only one turn, an empire or dwarf player can destroy one chariot with a cannon, and put a big dent in one Chaos Warrior block by lobbing a stone/mortar shell in the middle of them. If he hangs back, he can do the same on turn two, while you're not even in close combat range yet.
Even if he doesn't have war machines, he will in 90% of the cases have more units than you, and those four ranks of Chaos warriors will be useless if flankers deny their rank bonus. Unless you're playing opponents who are too stupid to use combined charges, or field any cavalry, of course, but I doubt that.

My old suggestions still stand, but I know you don't intend to listen to them.
Let me give you some advice that you can use on your current list.

- Drop the power familiar. You already have more than enough magic dice. Use the free points to give your Chaos warriors either extra handweapons or halberds, or they'll never get enough kills in to win combats. They're elite infantry, they're not meant to be used in huge units in prolonged combats, since that gives your enemy time to flank them with one of his other units. You want combat to be over quickly, so you want to get kills in.

- Drop the spell familiar and the enchanted shield, and give that Champion a Berserker sword and put him in a chariot. He now has a great armor save thanks to the chariot, and the chariot base size will give him plenty of extra attacks. Combined with Yellow Fire against those nasty cannonballs or orange fire to ensure all those attacks actually hit and wound, you have a nice killing machine on your hands.


Is that analysis sufficient for you? It's probably still not what you want to hear, so you'll still take it with your 'pinch of salt'. Feel free to prove my opinions wrong, though. If you manage to win against at least five different opponents with this list, I'll gladly admit that I've underestimated it. Until that time, don't ask for advice until you're prepared to actually listen to it.

Von Wibble
23-10-2006, 23:13
Just to add to Der_lex's point on the magic front, as a regular opponent of Chaos, Tzeentch magic heavy doesn't scare me as I know there are a couple of spells I HAVE to dispel, and then I can let the red fires and even blue fires through and shrug it off as shooting.

Undivided armies with lots of power dice from mark of Tzeentch on the other hand do scare me, as the same power dice now go into lots of horrible spells where I have to dispel them all! I can't afford to let the beast cowers or unseen lurker through, and thats before the horrible slaanesh spells come into the equation (especially titilating delusions and luxurious torment -D6 s3 hits every turn on one of my units plus maknig it frenzy so it wastes its time charging hounds for just CV6 is plain exploitative)

I would keep the spell familiar - a magic domination plan can be ruined by poor spell rolling, and the familiar helps to prevent this for just 15pts.

I agree with der_lex - the army lacks speed and will be outflanked quite easily thanks to its lack of numbers. Drop a chariot (10 power dice is still plenty) and take a unit of marauder horsemen plus a couple of units of hounds instead. This should help against cavalry and flankers. Also I never shoot at chariots unless I'm using cannons - so the scare factor isn't.

The army is at the end of the day a high risk strategy. It relies on luck to win which is why I would avoid it as an idea - it only takes a bad miscast or poor casting/ spell selection rolls to render the plan worthless. So teh army should therefore be able to adapt by being good in something else -thus more movement is needed.

Tobias
23-10-2006, 23:18
Good list

My advice, drop the power familiar, for a scroll and a helm of many eyes
Drop enchanted shield ake great weapon
Drop 2 warriors of each unit and make them 6 wide
Take some marauder horsemen/chaos hounds for screaning/flanking/war machine hunting

I would easily outmanouvre you, I also question the chariots, maybe drop the for marauders?

der_lex
23-10-2006, 23:24
Good list

My advice, drop the power familiar, for a scroll and a helm of many eyes
Drop enchanted shield ake great weapon
Drop 2 warriors of each unit and make them 6 wide
Take some marauder horsemen/chaos hounds for screaning/flanking/war machine hunting

I would easily outmanouvre you, I also question the chariots, maybe drop the for marauders?

Good ideas, except for the Helm. Without the psychology re-roll of Chaos undivided, there's too big a risk that you'll be stuck with a stupid spellcaster for one turn. It's a great magic item, but not on Tzeentch characters.

Seth81
24-10-2006, 00:22
I'm writing a new list now taking in all the advice, dex_lers in particular.

But btw, with 3 and 2 spells and 11 power dice I'd be casting 4 spells a turn.

Ex Champ 1 : Uses 3 and 2 dice for a spell ( or if he's got a decent one he'll use 3 or both ).

Ex Champ 2 : Uses 3/2 dice on both spells depending on what the other mage rolls. Champ 2 also has 3 spells to pick from.

Anyway, new army list. I'll update the first page aswell.


1500pt Tzeentch
Heroes

Exalted Champion of Tzeentch (100)
Mark of Tzeentch (70), Spell Familiar (15), Halberd (4), Shield (2)
=191pts

Exalted Champion of Tzeentch (100)
Mark of Tzeentch (70), Berserker Sword (40), Shield (2)
=212pts

Core Units

12 Warriors of Tzeentch (168)
Mark of Tzeentch (20), Champion (12), Musician (6), Additional Hand Weapons (36)
=242pts

12 Warriors of Tzeentch (168)
Mark of Tzeentch (20), Champion (12), Musician (6), Additional Hand Weapons (36)
=242pts

Chariot of Tzeentch (120)
Mark of Tzeentch (20)
=140pts

Chariot of Tzeentch (120)
Mark of Tzeentch (20)
=140pts

5 Marauder Horsemen (65)
Musician (6), Flails (10)
=81pts

5 Marauder Horsemen (65)
Musician (6), Flails (10)
=81pts

6 Warhounds of Chaos (36)
=36pts

6 Warhounds of Chaos (36)
=36pts

Special Units

3 Screamers of Tzeentch (99)
=99pts

Total = 1500pts


The beserker champion will go in the chariot, and the other one will probably go in the second. Not sure. Depends how many cannons ect and if he can be used better elsewhere.

The warhounds shall just ask as meat shields for the warriors or whatever needs protecting from shooting/magic missiles.

The marauder horsemen will be flanking units but could also hunt war machines if needed to.

Screamers will do the same as before, march block/warmachine hunt.

I'll combind charges from the chaos warriors and anything else still above unit size 5.

I was considering throwing axes for the horsemen but for 20 points I'd probably get 1 round of shooting killing 2 models on average per unit.

10 Power Dice. 4 Dispel Dice.

The Beserker mage will hope to get Yellow/Orange fire. I'll try to avoid swapping out spells for red fire as it's not a stable spell and I prefer spells I can still cast in combat. So not magic missiles.

der_lex
24-10-2006, 00:35
It'll definitely be harder to outmaneuver this list now, which was its biggest weakness. The Warhounds as meat shields are a good idea, but you should still try to take out shooters as fast as possible with the Marauders. That way you can hang back with the chaos warriors and chariots, and soften the enemy up with magic first. It can really pay off to play Tzeentch 'dwarf-style', ie playing the waiting game and making the opponent come to you. Your CW blocks (I assume you're fielding them in two ranks of six?) and chariots should be able to deal with anything that comes your way after you've blasted some magic missiles into that (don't completely dismiss the magic missile spells, they're not game-winners, but they're great at weakening the enemy).
Good call on the throwing axes, they're usually not worth their points.
Last point of advice: be very careful with using only two dice to cast a spell. This works all right for every spell up to yellow fire, but after that you'll find yourself failing to cast spells more often than you'd like (or so that happens in my experience, but maybe I just have bad luck with my powerdice).

Seth81
24-10-2006, 00:53
Well for green/blue/indigo/violet I'll use three dice even if it means only casting 1 spell a turn with one of the champions.

Most likley spell config will be.

Champ without familiar:

1 green/blue/indigo/violet spell a turn and 1 red/orange/yellow a turn.

Using 3 dice for g/b/i/v and 2 dice for r/o/y.

If end up with two g/b/i/v spells I'll either use both on 3 dice depending on what the other mage has or just 1 one three dice and give up 2 of his dice to the other mage with 3 spells.

Champ with familiar:

Same format but I'll be more likey to get r/o/y and a g/b/i/v spell.

I'd probably swap out violet fire as 6inch is abit limited and it's not that awesome of a spell anyway unless it's a goblin/skaven character.

Anyway.

Depending on how much shooting he has ( or depending on how quickly I can kill it ) I'll be able to force him to come to me and set up a few nice charges.

And yes the warriors will be in two ranks of 6.

The spell familiar champion has a halbard since if he's on a chariot he'll in effect have a great weapon but he won't stike last. 4 S6 attacks isn't bad.

The hard hitting units will be the warriors/chariots. The screamer/horsemen will harass.

The hounds will most likley die to magic/shooting. However if they don't, they'll be another flanking unit or even just a redirecting unit.

I can also use them to flee 3D6 against a charge and thus leave the unit failing it's charge infront of some angry chariots/warriors.

Thanks for the comment dex_lers.

Neknoh
24-10-2006, 05:01
There is still one major flaw in this list, Tzeentch psychollogy and reliance on Warrior killyness, I do agree that warriors can kill more than a nuke on speed, but, with only Ld 8 and a measly 12 warriors, even a Reaper Bolt Thrower will be able to cause a panick test.

Yes, I know that you are going to use your warhounds to screen, the problem here is that your warhounds will have to run up ahead of the warriors as not to panick them when they are destroyed. And then, when the first unit of hounds is destroyed, the second one will flee, and this will take it through one unit of Chaos Warriors, if you are lucky, that Hound unit is below US5, if you are unlucky, you will fail a panick test and have your Warriors flee.

And don't think for a moment that you will be able to force the opponent toward you, having a Sorceror of Chaos with a Spell Familliar and the Lore of Fire in a Tzeentch dice generating army will do that, a Shadow will boost you toward him, but tzeentch magic allone will only take out his support units and weaken his missile.

Which is exactly what you should do, take out his support units using your spells, blast any Fast Cavalry with Magic Missiles till they get the hell out of there.

That way, you will get the upper hand.

I very much like the new list you have made, however, your plan is far too complicated, I would suggest breaking it down into three or four parts:

1. Take out fast support
2. Take out casters
3. Take out slower support
4. Lock enemy main blocks in combats they can't win

Rather than "Ok, I'll start by moving this unit there and that unit there, after that, caster A will cast blabla and caster B will cast blehbleh"

Seth81
24-10-2006, 11:04
The hounds will always try to stay ahead of the warriors because of that damn LD8.

If needed I'm willing to use the horsemen as a backup screen for the warriors if the enemy is heavy shooting.

LD8 is just one of the draw backs I'm going to have to face, it's the main down side of Tzeentch in my opinion.

Tobias
24-10-2006, 12:11
The Warrior units are too easily outmanouvred and won't win cc(No they just won't)

Drop one unit, and make the other 18. Take another marauder unit onf oot to go with them.
Or Drop the chariot, for bigger warrior, THe prob nowi s you only have got flanking units ;) or they have to charge to win, but they have a lack of movement.