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View Full Version : Crusades; Commanders and Forces involved



Aun'aart'al
23-10-2006, 20:45
ok so, lets say the Imperium has to retake an entire subsector (for whatever reason your mind can fathome), what sort of ranks for the CO's would be involved? How high would it go? Also, what sort of forces would be involved? (a little more detailed than saying SM, SoB, IG, etc. but like, rough numbers)

malika
23-10-2006, 21:00
Depends on how well the subsector is defended and which forces are available. I assume that an entire Space Marine chapter with several IG regiments, a demi legion of the Adeptus Titanicus and of course elements from the battlefleet.

But it all depends on the world and the number of enemies involved. I assume a normally defended (and populated) world would require a billion or a bit more to take in effectively with the tactics the IG uses.

Aun'aart'al
23-10-2006, 21:06
ok lets paint a picture for the subsector;

It's chaos. Traitor Marines attack wherever they please, Orks loot, pillar, plunder, and attack in Waaagh!s that increase each time, and the subsector is attempting to secceed from the Imperium. The subsector has a Forgeworld in it and has a number of industrial worlds, and is considered to be very religious, compared to its surrounding subsectors. The Traitor Marines are only numbered at roughly 800-1200 but are not in any given/focused area, but the Ork presence is strong. Defences are dwindling across the entire subsector, with its own fleet heavily battered and in need of desperate repairs and rearmament.

hope that helps with any numbers

Sojourner
23-10-2006, 21:14
There would probably be a Warmaster in command or at the very least a Lord-Marshal. At least one Imperial Guard Army Group per world contested, with associated transport - let's say ten. Army Groups consist of maybe six to twenty Armies; each of as many as fifty divisions. Let a division be 100,000 men; that gives you half a billion soldiers.

This is; to say the least, a rather large engagement.

Minister
23-10-2006, 21:18
Assuming, as is likley with this level of conflict, that a Crusade is declared a Warmaster will be appointed.

For a Sector crusade, the Imperial Navy commitment will most likley be multi-battlegroup in scale and commanded by either a Fleet Admiral or Lord Admiral. Guard forces would also be extensive, but what with the GW ambiguity over just how many troops are deployed the best that can be said is "a lot". Marines are likley to be sought out, and for a full-scale Crusade at sector level at least two chapters' worth would be likely. At least one Titan Legion, likley more if it can be wrangled.

Aun'aart'al
23-10-2006, 21:20
There would probably be a Warmaster in command or at the very least a Lord-Marshal. At least one Imperial Guard Army Group per world contested, with associated transport - let's say ten. Army Groups consist of maybe six to twenty Armies; each of as many as fifty divisions. Let a division be 100,000 men; that gives you half a billion soldiers.

This is; to say the least, a rather large engagement.

so would you agree if I were to say.. as many as 10 Astartes chapters, a few SoB crusades (religious crusade part), possibly an Inquisitor (Hereticus? maybe even Xenos and Hereticus?), and anywhere in the area of 50-100 different Imperial Guard regiments (catachan compared to Cadian are 2 examples). Possibly a Legio (but at least a Demi-Legio, right?), supported by a handful of Skitarii legions.

and then fleet-wise would you then also agree that perhaps anywhere from 1/4 to half a battlefleet would be in the crusade force, with enough transports for the army, and perhaps about 3 BB's and its escorting SC's? maybe more?

is that about accurate? sorry if its overkill, dont have a clue what the numbers would be

malika
23-10-2006, 21:40
10 Chapters? thats a whole lot! Heck Space Marines are not that common! Perhaps elements from 10 chapter, but not 10 whole chapters. I would expect a way larger role for the Imperial Guard and Navy in this.

The Inquisition might send in small specialised forces to deal with Chaos and the Orks, so see a minor presence of both the Ordo Xenos and Malleus. But yeah most of the work would be done by the IG and IN.

Aun'aart'al
23-10-2006, 23:22
10 Chapters? thats a whole lot! Heck Space Marines are not that common! Perhaps elements from 10 chapter, but not 10 whole chapters.

oh my apologies, I thought others would see that I implied only parts of 10 chapters, like what happened with Armageddon. 3 companies here, 1 company there, etc.


I would expect a way larger role for the Imperial Guard and Navy in this.

well the Imperium does have an excess of cannon fodder :rolleyes: however I'm still confused as to the naval presence, as in; what sort of numbers? (I dont play BFG, I'd like to, but cash is a problem atm)


The Inquisition might send in small specialised forces to deal with Chaos and the Orks, so see a minor presence of both the Ordo Xenos and Malleus.

can you define "small specialised forces" ? when it comes to the Inquisition, my knowledge is uncomfortably limited

downundercadet07
23-10-2006, 23:37
Small Specialized forces would be around fifty men. Naval presence, probably three fleets with at least a dozen capital ships each. Escorts to taste.

Aun'aart'al
23-10-2006, 23:45
Small Specialized forces would be around fifty men.

(because sarcasm isnt a "don't do" in the rules, taly-ho! :D )

now down, because your reply about the "specialised forces" was just so informative, I think I'll give you a cookie :rolleyes:

seriously though, like what? some commandos of some sort? sabateurs, assassins, help me out here. With this entire thread, details are now the icing that goes on that delicious cake


Naval presence, probably three fleets with at least a dozen capital ships each. Escorts to taste.

oohh ok, so this thing could have a fleet presence of;

12-36 capital ships
- 11-33 cruisers (various classes)
-- 1-3 battleships (various classes)

20-40 escort vessels (various classes)

VetSgtNamaan
24-10-2006, 02:28
Well considering it took Lord Militant Slaydo quite a number of years to get the crusade to free the Sabbat worlds. Considering he was made warmaster in 755 and he had first drawn up his treatise in 732.

The opening attacks of the crusade involved almost 1 billion guardsmen along with massive retinues of artillery and armour, 6 chapters of the Adeptus Astartes along with the titans of the adeptus mechanicus with which he had brokered a cooperative pact.

Belisarius
24-10-2006, 02:45
agree with over a billion guardsmen and at least elements from 10 to 12 chapters (by elements i mean a company or strike force sized detachment) disagree with the small specialized units from inquisition. the reason being if several worlds were trying to succeed it could quickly be declared a war of faith by the inuisition in which case u would see a number of SOB fighting units involved. Even if it isn't a war of faith one can expect a number of sob orders the hospitilars for example being used. of course a number of inquisitional covert units would be used, assassins and the like as well as Inquisitional forces to weed out the compromised populations on planets where chaos had even a little say even a little thus the thought of breaking away. Look at the units involved in the weeding out of the population of armageddon after the chaos incursion as well as medusa V when the survivors of Medussa 4 came there. The Imperial tendancy towards genocide is well documented and one would assume they would follow the same pattern as the nazi invasion of russia with special action units following in the wake of the crusade to weed out the elements they found undesirable. just my two cents

Aun'aart'al
24-10-2006, 03:14
ok so so far Ive got this (and please correct me if I'm wrong anywhere, or if you disagree with anything)


anywhere from 5-10 Space Marine chapters (varying contributions)
4 Battlebarges tops
as many strike cruisers as neccessary
500 million to 2 billion Imperial Guardsmen
as many support vehicles as neccessary (transports, munition chimeras, etc.)
Imperial armor (artillery, tanks, etc.)
12-36 cruisers
1-3 battleships
maybe a secretive Grey Knight detachment (squad or 2)
CLASSIFIED number of Inquisitorial forces (but they're definately there?)
a Demi-Legio or up, possibly even 4 different Legio's (max?), supported by Skitarii legions
3+ Orders of Sisters of Battle (varying contributions)
CLASSIFIED number of Imperial Assassins (varying Temple contributions)


that about accurate everyone? :confused:

oh, and one more thing; what sort of ranks would be for each Army Detachment? (I understand the crusade force would be broken up into like "1st Army," "2nd Army," etc.)

Voronwe[MQ]
24-10-2006, 17:14
It'd be accurate, although I would have to complain about the Space Marine chapters.

Aun'aart'al
24-10-2006, 23:39
the amount of Space Marines could total only 2000, probably less. Armageddon alone had I think somewhere in the area of 10,000 Marines (if I remember the number correctly, I'd have to double-check)

Voronwe[MQ]
25-10-2006, 12:51
Still, the most important factor is, as always, the humble guardsmen. 2 billions might be considered enough, but actually I would take that as a minimum thumb-rule.

Xisor
25-10-2006, 16:18
ok so so far Ive got this (and please correct me if I'm wrong anywhere, or if you disagree with anything)

It won't be a correction, just my take on things...

Adeptus Astartes Assets
Portions from several Chapters. Enough for:
8 Battle Companies
3 Reserve Companies
1 Scout Company
1 Veteran Company 'force'

To transport this lot, I'd suggest anywhere up to:
<=6 Strike Cruiser
<=12 Escort Squadrons (looking at about 18 RSVs/Escorts each)
1-2 Battle Barges (Alternately an extra 2-6 Strike Cruisers)
[Note this fleet at minimum of 4 SC, 12 Escorts, 1 Barge could safely carry the above in numbers of Marines and Drop-Podables and Landers, but their vehicle supply would be extremely limited]

Imperial Guard Assets
Plenty.

As Sojourner says: At least one Imperial Guard Army Group per world contested, with associated transport - let's say ten. Army Groups consist of maybe six to twenty Armies; each of as many as fifty divisions. Let a division be 100,000 men; that gives you half a billion soldiers.

Sounds about right. Incorporating into that an impressive amount of Tank Regiments (going with a 5:1 Ratio with 5 being Russ/Artillery/Scout Vehicle regiments and 1 being Superheavies in the form of at minimal: platoons, at most regiments). Assume the vast bulk of 'Infantry' regiments are made up of Mechanised Infantry regiments then it's not difficult to believe that you'll have *more* than enough at a time.

Adeptus Mechanicus Expedition
1 Legio Titanicus
0-3 Demi/Quarto Legio Titanicus
0-2 Centurio Ordinatus (simple, single Ordinatus vehicles)
1 Legion of Skitarii for every Titan accompanying the force
Sufficient Chapels and Colleges of the Cult Mechanicus to initially re-populate the Forgeworld alone once victory is achieved.

I propose a breakdown of at least:
18+ Warlord Titans (they're going after a Forgeworld...)
12 Reaver Titans
6-10 Warhound Titans
2 Ordinatus Hulls (Doesn't really matter what ones...they're all nicely powerful)

Giving a safe estimate of 40 Skitarii Legions. Into the Skitarii Legions I'd also account for equivalent amount of Knights. Putting a ball-park figure out I'd suggest 30-35,000 Tech Guard of some form or another.
[Note: As they're after a Forgeworld, these numbers may be 'up' slightly compared to a standard 'arbitrary' crusade]

Imperial Navy and Adeptus Mechanicus Transport Assets
I'd put a round figure of 40 invididual 'small' Transports of some form or another in amongst all that. On top of that, I'd account for at least 12 Heavy Transports as well as 12 Heavy Tankers (essentially heavy transports, but ferrying raw fuel)

Additionally, I expect a sizeable contingent to be available to be transported aboard Imperial Navy Warships.

Imperial Navy Component

Fluffwise (i.e. more to what 'should' be there as opposed to 'what'd be the strongest BFG fleet) I'd expect:

1 Ramillies Class Star Fort
2 Battleships. Probably 1 Oberon, 1 Apocalypse or Emperor.
2 Grand Cruisers (1 Vengence, 1 assorted other [may be a second Vengence]
4 Battlecruisers (1 Mars, 1 Tyrand, 2 Armageddon)
18 Line Cruisers (6 Lunar, 4 Gothic, 2 Dictators, 3 Tyrants, 3 Dominators)
8 Light Cruisers (6 Dauntless, 1 Endeavour, 1 of Defiant or Endurace Class)
36-44 Escort Squadrons (assume 30 Cobras, 35 Swords, 20 Firestorms and a mix of other variants)

I'd say that's a fairly sizeable crusade force. Especially considering the size, and stuggle faced by Battlefleet Gothic during the 12th Black Crusade (or the Gothic War as we know it), it's an immense amount of Imperial Starshippery. However, this is what is desired, knowing the Imperium, we'd get half of it, most of them with skeleton crews...

Inquisition and Assorted Other 'Secretive' or 'Officio' Deployments

Inquisition
X Inquisitor Lords
Y Inquisitors
where Y>>X

4 Squadrons of Inquisitorial Rapid Strike Vessels/Escorts
Sufficient companies of Inquisitorial Storm Troopers and assorted similars to fully endow the above squadrons.
3 Inquisitorial 'Blackships'
1 Grey Knights Strike Cruiser
Demi-company or less of Grey Knights
2 Deathwatch Strike Cruisers
2 Squadrons of Deathwatch RSVs/Escorts
Enough Deathwatch Marines for several (3-4) independent Strike Teams of a larger potency than the 5-10 Man Strike teams we 'know'.

Adepta Sororitas

(I honestly don't know)

Adeptus Arbites

4-6 Punisher Class Strike Cruisers
4-6 Spaceborne Precincts (for the Strike Cruisers!)
8-16 'Deployable' Precincts to be put on liberated worlds

Officio Assasinorum

Z Operatives where X<Z<Y (pertaining to the Inquisition)

Officio Sabatorum[/b]
(I again, don't know)


For the purpose of splitting the fleet

Maximum overall split of 6 'Divisions' each supported by foremost an Arbites Punisher Class Cruiser or Inquisitorial vessel (even a single Cobra). Though these'd be present, I highly doubt the Adeptus Arbites or the Inquisition would allow a Crusade fleet to split off [i]without some form of presence.

Anyway: That's what I'd ideally like for taking a sector. Not for fighting a game of BFG, but thematically...If I was writing a campaign, that'd be what's applied for. I'd get less than half of it (all disjointed), but we'd have to make do...

Xisor

Voronwe[MQ]
25-10-2006, 18:18
Still, I think that two billion guardsmen should be needed for taking a system, even though you have the support of the other elements of the crusade.

Aun'aart'al
25-10-2006, 18:28
2 billion Imperial Guardsmen is a lot of Guard though, and chances are (unless its a major hiveworld), supported by the thousands of tanks, and the orbital bombardment the Imperial Navy could call upon, chances are the army would have enough to break up and deploy on seperate worlds. If there are 50 worlds in a subsector, and you're sending 2 billion/system, thats 100 billion Imperial Guardsmen! :eek:

Voronwe[MQ]
25-10-2006, 18:47
2 billion Imperial Guardsmen is a lot of Guard though, and chances are (unless its a major hiveworld), supported by the thousands of tanks, and the orbital bombardment the Imperial Navy could call upon, chances are the army would have enough to break up and deploy on seperate worlds. If there are 50 worlds in a subsector, and you're sending 2 billion/system, thats 100 billion Imperial Guardsmen! :eek:

Who ever said that there was one world per system? Of course you 'recycle' them, so the number of Guardsmen required stays pretty low (2-6 billions), but the focus of the crusade remains fixed upon a few systems at a time, with colonially assigned PDF/Imperial Guard regiments sent in along with arbites to protect and occupy the newly-conquered worlds behind. Considering that reinforcements can, in sizeable numbers, arrive from other systems in a few weeks, you are able to conquer three systems without any warning at a time before moving on.

Xisor
25-10-2006, 20:05
If, as I understand it, the Subsector is taken by Chaos, not occupied, but pretty much 'gone over' to Chaos, then I sincerely suspect that a 'handful' of 1 Billion Guardsmen is quite sufficient.

Look at what you have with you to do the killing:
Titan Legions and Starships

You only need to actually get down to the planetside when the enemy force is immovable or you want to take something intact. Cityfighting probably isn't a problem considering you've a sizeable portion of Adeptus Mechanicus equipment and personel with you: Pre-fab (Flatpack!) Hive Cities anyone? :eek:

This is the Imperium, not the UN. It's likely going in and killing everyone for contact with Chaos. The worlds can be settled with reassigned portions of the fleet and late-comers to the crusade (other personel transports).

When it comes down to it, you could take a system with a couple of thousand Guardsmen. The Imperial Guard only 'really' fights in trench-lines in very silly circumstances. If you're looking at a crusade/invasion fleet you may well have all the manpower you want, but you might not have all the logistical and material support needed to shift them.

Killing the enemy and the populace is a simply better solution all round.

And considering you're going to have:
Titans
Variety of Starships
Space Marines
Inquisitiorial Black Ships and RSVs with suitably trained extermination Storm Trooper folks
Adeptus Arbites
Skitarii

as well as however many Imperial Guardsmen you need...major forces really shouldn't be a problem if we go with the provisio that we don't get bogged down into a long war from the outset.

Newly conquered worlds are 'conquered', IMO, after the fighting is over with tons of Adeptus Ministorum and general Transport vessels assigned through the Adeptus Terra moving around shipping bucket upon bucket of humanity to the new worlds in a steady but constant flow...

Hence why you'd only need 1 Billion Guardsmen. Sure, 2-6Bn would be a fantastic asset, but with 1 Billion Guardsmen from regiments who's doctrines are not 'March at the enemy' i.e. Warmaster Z. Brannigan style, you really could take worlds with that kind of assetry.

Belisarius
26-10-2006, 02:11
you are forgetting that in a lot of cases they want the resources or infrastructure taken as intact as possible. While you are correct in determining the power and strenght of orbital bombardments and the like a planet is not truely occupied until you put boots on the ground. Bomb them from above all you like but unless you are virus bombing as shown in galaxy in flames you are unlikely to get them all. heck even in galaxy in flames those in deep shelters lived and it is reasonable that some of these planets have such fortifications. another point of intrest is orbital defenses in orbit and planetside. you enter low orbit to bombard and you are a target for the planetside orbital defenses such as missle silo's lance batteries and defense laser silos not to mention space/atmosphere capable fighters and bomber squadrons. Yet another consideration is the fleet potential of the enemy. Sure you can send in a massive armada all at once after one planet at a time but a few incidents with "fire" ships or preseeded mine fields would make for a very difficult time. as a gothic player i understand this. Furthermore simply bombing said planet depositing a few troops and moving on you run the risk of an enemy space raid swooping in doing the same and retaking the planet and severing your supply lines. Again some planets can be useful staging points and as such you want a lot of bootsw on the ground to hold it. in the premise for this engagement it mentioned planets that were on the brink in which case you want to put boots on the ground to support loyalist forces as simply bombing theat planet could turn your allies into enemies and seed the way for possible betrayal. While your synopsis on the destructive power of the fleet is accurate and effective the following combinations make it more likely for the inclusion of 2 billion guardsmen to attack 30-40 planets not to mention how many moon and asterriod bases and for boarding and taking space docks and stations to be used as staging areas.

Xisor
26-10-2006, 07:40
you enter low orbit to bombard and you are a target for the planetside orbital defenses such as missle silo's lance batteries and defense laser silos not to mention space/atmosphere capable fighters and bomber squadrons. Yet another consideration is the fleet potential of the enemy. Sure you can send in a massive armada all at once after one planet at a time but a few incidents with "fire" ships or preseeded mine fields would make for a very difficult time. as a gothic player i understand this. Furthermore simply bombing said planet depositing a few troops and moving on you run the risk of an enemy space raid swooping in doing the same and retaking the planet and severing your supply lines.

Looking at the vastness of the fleet I propose, a planet will be securely taken, or we'd be dealing with another Dark Crusade's worth of fleet. Unless there is a Segmentum HQ world, I suspect approaching with a fleet will be quite a bit easier. Not only that, but we'd have Nova Cannons, the most fantastic seige weapon...ever.

Given the population of the starships too, it's really not impossible to take a planet. There'll be a recolonisation fleet about too. All that is required of our armies is to exterminate the enemy, with or without the structures/infrastructure intact. If there's a few pockets of resistance...the armada we have can cope. Only the major battles are required to be fought, everything else, as seems sensible, would be over rather quickly when we apply the Titans.


in the premise for this engagement it mentioned planets that were on the brink in which case you want to put boots on the ground to support loyalist forces as simply bombing theat planet could turn your allies into enemies and seed the way for possible betrayal. Allies into enemies, all very well...but not if they're dead. Okay, that's trivialising your point...

In seriousness, the Imperium is not worried about exterminating populations. They repopulated Armageddon after the 1st War (Logan Grimnar was up in arms...). If this sector is as crucial they may as well do the same.



While your synopsis on the destructive power of the fleet is accurate and effective the following combinations make it more likely for the inclusion of 2 billion guardsmen to attack 30-40 planets not to mention how many moon and asterriod bases and for boarding and taking space docks and stations to be used as staging areas.

Very true. It's, obviously, not as simple as we make out. But, a competent commander shouldn't find it too difficult with those resources. I keep saying it but: Titans

Most armies just cannot fight them.

Xisor

Gen.Steiner
26-10-2006, 08:49
To be honest, if you're assuming a ground landing, then you're definitely looking at more than a billion Guardsmen just to take one world.

Think about it - assume the PDF is at roughly similar tech-level to the Guard (albeit without much of the shiny stuff, e.g. super-heavies - although the Forge World might be supplying traitors with them). Now assume a small population of about 6 billion people.

Let us then assume that 10% of the population is in the PDF - this is a heavily militarised world in a sector at war, after all.

That makes 600 million soldiers.

To guarantee a successful assault, you require a minimum of 3x the enemy numbers.

That is, 1.2 billion troops.

Let's then say, even with Titans etc, that the crusade Guard contingent is 2 bn strong, to cope with casualties from disease, desertion, death and maiming.

So you're looking at 2 billion Guardsmen... to conquer one world. At a time. Yet Crusades fight on more than one world at a time! I would suggest a minimum of TEN billion Guardsmen for the Crusade as a whole, in order to enable combat on more than one world in more than one system within the sub-sector/sector.

Redskull
26-10-2006, 09:27
That makes 600 million soldiers.

To guarantee a successful assault, you require a minimum of 3x the enemy numbers.

That is, 1.2 billion troops.

Thats some tasty All-American Math you got there fellow...

(sorry just had to bother somebody in the morning before i go to work)

Voronwe[MQ]
26-10-2006, 09:31
Gen.Steiner is absolutely correct. His estimation of the situation is realistic, though I would almost consider 12 billion as a minimum requirement, but that's just me. :D

The_Patriot
26-10-2006, 09:31
Sisters Hospitaller would be part of the forces in significant numbers for post combat recovery of wounded troops. They could also function as medics at forward aid stations as support for all the troops. If any force has suffered severe losses of medics/doctors the Sisters would be deployed on the battlefield in support of other units like an IG platoon or Space Marine force.

Sisters Dialogous would be present to sift through information such as enemy texts etc... since that is their specialty. They would also be used as code breakers to break enemy codes protecting their communications regarding movements.

Sisters Famulous would be part of the campaign HQ force to provide for a diplomatic resolution for anything from getting personal armies of nobles from other planets to fight to getting nobles on the planet to be assaulted to switch sides and support the invasion of Imperial troops. Also these Sisters would be invaluable source of covert information due to the network they have established from working with the noble families.

Militant orders would be used to secure any churches, holy shrines, and other areas deemed important by the Ecclesiarchy. Depending upon the number of sites needed to be secured will determine how big of a force used. Since all of the worlds of the Imperium have a church the Sisters of Battle would be deployed to retake the site and no other units due to there could be relics held within a vault that the Ecclesiarchy cannot entrust to other units. For holy shrines, the size of the force used would be significantly larger as such holy places should be held in the hands of the Imperium and to prevent defiling. Grabbing an important site would be a big morale booster for the other forces involved, especially the Imperial Guard.

Arbites would be the last forces used and only in mopping up operations once the battle area is secured. They would provide security for inside of the areas retaken and to establish law and order.

Lostanddamned
26-10-2006, 09:32
To give you an Idea:



Third War For Armageddon

Ground Forces
Space Marines

Angels Of Fire - 7 Companies
Angels Of Redemption - 4 Companies
Angels of Vigilance - 6 Companies
Black Dragons - 9 Companies
Black Templars - 3 Crusades (we can assume these are in fact, fighting companies)
Blood Angels - 1 Company
Celebrants - 10 Companies
Celestial Lions - 10 Compaines
Exorcists - 12 Companies
Flesh Tearers - 5 Companies
Iron Champions - 7 Companies
Marines Manevolent - 2 Companies
Mortifactors - 10 Companies
Omega Marines - 9 Companies
Raptors - 5 Companies
Relictors - 10 Companies
Salamanders - 6 Companies
Silver Skulls - 7 Companies
Sons of Guilleman - 6 Companies
Space Wolves - 5 Great Companies
Storm Giants - 5 Companies
Storm Lords - 2 Brotherhoods
White Scars - 3 Brotherhoods

Total - Approx 14300 Marines

Imperial Guard Regiments

Ash Waste Militia - 5 Regiments
Command Guard - 5 Companies
Hive Militia - 120 Regiments
Ork Hunters - 5 Regiments
Steel Legion - 25 Regiments
Arphista Penal Legion - 1 Legion
Asgardian Rangers - 2 Regiments
Cadian Shock Troops - 15 Regiments
Catachan Jungle Fighters - 3 Regiments
Death Korps of Krieg - 5 Regiments
Elysian Drop Troops - 14 Squadrons
Jopall Indentured Sqdns - 17 Battalions
Krourk Ogryn Auxillia - 2 Regiments
Minervan Tank Legions - 3 Legions
Monglor Ogryn Auxillia - 1 Regiment
Mordian Iron Guard - 6 Regiments
Noctan Strike Forces - 6 Regiments
Ocanon Phalanx Troops - 11 Regiments
Pyran Dragoons - 10 Regiments
Salvar Chem-Dogs - 6 Regiments
Salvar Chem-Riders - 2 Regiments
Semtexian Bombardies - 9 Batteries
Storm Troopers - 18 Companies
Zouvan Skirmishers - 4 Brigades

Total - Zoggin' Millions.

Adepta Sorotis

Order Of Our Martyred Lady - Equivalent 3 Companies
Order Of The Argent Shroud - Equivalent 7 Companies

Total - 1000 Sisters Of Battle

Adeptus Mechanicus

Centurio Ordinatus - 4 Ordinatus
Legio Crucius - Demi Legio
Legio Ignatum - Legio
Legio Invigilata - Legio
Legio Magna - Quarto Legio
Megio Metalica - Demi Legio
Legio Tempestor - Legio
Legio Victorum - Legio
Skitarii - 14 Regiments

Total - 4 Ordinatus, 5.25 Legio of Titans, 14 Regiments Of Skitarii

Departmento Munitorum

2 Engineer Corps
1 Pioneer Corps

Total - 3 Corps

Adeptus Arbites

20 Precincts
12 Punitive Battalions

Total - A bunch of Policemen.

Officio Assassinorum

A Classified Number of Agents

Total - Some

Officio Sabatorum

34 Agents

Total - 34 Agents!

Ordo Xenos

2 Kill Teams

Total - 10 more Marines

Templars Psykologis

15 Disruption Squads

Total - 15 squads

Fleet Forces

2 Apocalypse Class Battleships
1 Emperor Class Battleship
1 Oberon Class Battleship
6 First Line Cruiser Squads
9 Second Line Cruiser Squads
12 Light Cruiser Squadrons
36 Escort Squadrons
43 Bomber Strike Wings
67 Interceptor Strike Wings
14 Space Marine Battlebarges
103 Space Marine Strike Cruisers
An Unknown Number of Thunderhawk Gunships

Bear in mind this is the force massed by the Imperium to defend a single planet.

Conclusion: 1. an attacking Imperial Crusade is HUGE! 2. This Took way to long to type.

Voronwe[MQ]
26-10-2006, 09:32
Yes, though don't forget that Officio Medicae personnel takes care of the lion's part of wounded.

The_Patriot
26-10-2006, 09:36
;1033770']Yes, though don't forget that Officio Medicae personnel takes care of the lion's part of wounded.

Officio Medicae personnel are the normal medical units used by the Imperial Guard and Space Marines as well as running hospitals for civilians. The Sisters Hospitallers are a supporting unit to them and can fill in when the Officio Medicae has suffered severe casualties.

Gen.Steiner
26-10-2006, 09:38
Thats some tasty All-American Math you got there fellow...

(sorry just had to bother somebody in the morning before i go to work)

Heh, even if you use the Real Billion of 6,000,000,000,000 people...

My sums still work. :p


;1033767']Gen.Steiner is absolutely correct. His estimation of the situation is realistic, though I would almost consider 12 billion as a minimum requirement, but that's just me. :D

I was tempted to put 12, but thought that ten was a nicer number. :)


Conclusion: an attacking Imperial Crusade is HUGE!

Yep - around 10,000,000,000/10,000,000,000,000 Guardsmen, as many Space Marines as you can get, ditto for AdMech forces and AdSor.

I'd imagine that there'd be a LOT of Skitarii et al, given that they're reconquering and resanctifying a Forgeworld.

Xisor
26-10-2006, 10:38
I really have to disagree. You do not fight the entire planet all at once.

12 Billion people? No.

Remember: We're not looking to take the planet & population, we're looking to exterminate them.

We do not send the Imperial Guard against an equivalent force, we send Titans against they're main forces and use IG to hold the line. When we're spearheading an assault against a well defended position, we subdue it with Titans and drop Pod in some marines to strike at the HQ, take on their elites or try something equally interesting. Once that's done the Baneblades, Russ Companies, Mech Infantries move in against the disoriented regiments.

Of course our forces take casualties, but we are not looking to ever fight a significant force equally 'overall'

If we've only half a billion guardsmen against a world with an army of hundreds, we adapt tactics so we only take major losses if:
- Our plans are dire
- We're totally outthought(ie an ambush)

Given that we're attacking with a force consisting of hig-end Imperial special forces, and fighting with an IG force which is similarly equipped, but generally quite superior to almost all PDF forces this shouldn't be a problem.

We can stand better for an assurance of victory with dozens of men for every one of theirs, or we can think it out and fight with a dillapidated force consisting of seventeen ice-fighter regiments, fourteen pathfinder groups, twelve heavy artiller regiments, eighteen seige regiments, half a platoon of drop troops, several dozen penal regiments and maybe a regiment or two who're suitable for any of the worlds we're to fight upon.

We're not looking to seize the populations, we're looking to exterminate. They're tainted by Chaos. Conducting sufficient door-to-door Inquisitorial purges would take a lifetime, simply exterminating all inhabitiants is alot easier. Especially with daytime-rechargable lasguns...

Xisor

Voronwe[MQ]
26-10-2006, 15:02
Exterminating a whole population? Have GW's focus on Chaos 'heretics' infested people? We're not, I repeat not here for some dogmatic, idiotic, intolerant, illogical ends; we're here to conquer. You must fight the over huge majority of a planet's surface if you are to succeed, and none-knows how many specialist groups are included in these 12 billion. 12 billion was pretty much the same as I estimated for Imperial forces on Armageddon during its third war.

Some points you raised are undoubtedly interesting, but I want you to think of the whole thing again.

Xisor
26-10-2006, 16:50
Not a chance.

The defences of Armageddon were to defend perhaps one of the most important worlds in Segmentum Solar from perhaps the greatest Ork Waaagh! seen since the days of the Emperor himself. I don't think 12 Billion is a safe amount for a generic crusade into a generic chaos-rebel subsector.

Exterminating populations infected by Chaos and cults of unbelief are perfectly feasible. If you turn up and the entire Sector is gone over to Chaos with nowhere and no-one remaining holed up to defened the virtue of the Emperor, then why are we trying to conquer these people? To bring them back from the depths of Chaos? :rolleyes:


You must fight the over huge majority of a planet's surface if you are to succeed

Succeed in what? Capturing an already-mutated Hive? A planetside Warp rift? I see nothing to suggest that my perspective is wrong or requiring significant 'from the ground, up' (or 'from space, down' to be more accurate) thinking other than that you (Voronwe[MQ]) are claiming it has to be done.

Xisor

EDIT: I'm wrong in part, it seems. My evaluation was of a Sector gone over to Chaos. If it's
1) A heavily religious subsector trying to secede from the Imperium
2) Got the support of it's Forgeworld in this
3) Plagued with Orks
4) Got twelve hundred Chaos Space Marines running about willy nilly
then it also probably has
1) A corrupt religion that is driving it away from the Imperial Creed and into the arms of Chaos Space Marines. With those I highly imagine there's a serious threat of massive Chaos uprisings. CSMs tend not to attack alone.
2) A rogue Forgeworld. Oh my lordy...
3) A plague of orks
4) Plenty of Chaos cultists, Daemons etc

My initial assessment was wrong, but generally speaking I'm quite convinced that my solution still fits the problem. And fits it well.

The_Patriot
26-10-2006, 16:58
I have to side with Xisor on this one. The Ecclesiarchy would declare exterminatus so fast it would make your head spin turning this into a Holy War. Planets would burn and detachments of the Inquisition would be deployed to ensure that everything has been burnt to the ground. Of course, this is after the space bombardment. :D In this case, the bulk of the fighting would be done with Ecclesiarchy troops using lots of inducted Guard and Marines.

The only planet that could be deemed worth saving is the Forgeworld if it produces the only version of a vehicle in the entire Imperium. Ad Mech would be sure to want to capture that planet intact, so there wouldn't be an orbital bombardment prior to the deployment of Inquisitors.

Xisor
26-10-2006, 17:09
I have to side with Xisor on this one. The Ecclesiarchy would declare exterminatus so fast it would make your head spin turning this into a Holy War.

Thanks. You also raise an interesting point: Only Inquisitors can invoke Exterminatus on Imperial worlds, but can a Warmaster do it against a decisively alien/enemy world?


The only planet that could be deemed worth saving is the Forgeworld if it produces the only version of a vehicle in the entire Imperium. Ad Mech would be sure to want to capture that planet intact, so there wouldn't be an orbital bombardment prior to the deployment of Inquisitors.

I strongly doubt there'd be Inquisitors deployed. A Forgeworld is a sovereign world of the Adeptus Mechanicus, the Adeptus Terra, and even the Emperor himself, has no business there without invite from Mars.

Of course, that doesn't stop the Inquisitors and other branches of the Imperium trying, but the Adeptus Mechanicus are very jealous in this aspect, and would probably aim to take the entire world single handedly. I suspect the Adeptus Mechanicus contingent would there for increase substantially depending on how close to the Forgeworld the crusade fleet moves...

Xisor

The_Patriot
26-10-2006, 17:16
Thanks. You also raise an interesting point: Only Inquisitors can invoke Exterminatus on Imperial worlds, but can a Warmaster do it against a decisively alien/enemy world?

The worlds would be still classified as being Imperium from the Imperium's point of view. Thus, it would be a War of Faith issued by the Ecclesiarchy with the stipulation of exterminatus being the means of bringing the planet back into the fold.


I strongly doubt there'd be Inquisitors deployed. A Forgeworld is a sovereign world of the Adeptus Mechanicus, the Adeptus Terra, and even the Emperor himself, has no business there without invite from Mars.

Of course, that doesn't stop the Inquisitors and other branches of the Imperium trying, but the Adeptus Mechanicus are very jealous in this aspect, and would probably aim to take the entire world single handedly. I suspect the Adeptus Mechanicus contingent would there for increase substantially depending on how close to the Forgeworld the crusade fleet moves...

Xisor

Even the mighty Ad Mech tremble before an Inquisitor. ;) No department of the Imperium is safe from the prying eyes of an Inquisitor and with documented proof of a Forgeworld going rogue is enough to put the world on the list to be destroyed. The only thing that can save that world from that list would be if it produced a rare tech and was the sole producer of that tech. A die hard Inquisitor would not risk being the blame for losing such an important piece of technology; since such an action would be essentially spitting on the knowledge given to mankind by the glorious God-Emperor. ;) Such a thing is blasphemy to the Imperial Creed.

Gen.Steiner
26-10-2006, 18:05
Respectfully, I disagree.

Sure, let's declare exterminatus. You know what that does, right? It destroys the world, and they're usually then declared Perdita and not re-settled.

This is a Crusade to retake the planets - and planets supported by a rogue Forgeworld. Xisor, you keep banging on about Titans - the enemy has Titans of its own!

Space Marines are all very well, but Guardsmen take and hold ground. And on an inhabited, defended, fortified world, that requires numbers. Then factor in the fact that you're not fighting one world at one time - you're fighting on lots of worlds, all across a sector.

Yes, you could just annihilate every world in the sector - but then you're losing their factories, raw materials, and their support. You're talking about the Imperium, which evacuated Medusa V rather than simply destroying it, because they decided they needed Medusa V's promethium.

Exterminatus is used extremely sparingly. The majority of the time, worlds are attacked by the Imperial Guard. Taros, for example, which wasn't destroyed from space, because of the mining facilities.

I also question the Ecclesiarchy being able to declare exterminatus, which is the purview of Inquisitors only. You could argue that an Inquisitor was 'convinced' by the Ecclesiarchy to declare exterminatus, but IIRC it needs to be sanctioned by at least a meeting of other =][=.

Finally, the point remains that your Warlord Titan, standing in area X, cannot affect the rebels in area B on continent Y...

...whereas with 2 billion Guardsmen you can put 6 million to area X and seven million to area B. And you can raze the ground as you go.

Voronwe[MQ]
26-10-2006, 18:19
Exactly, Gen.Steiner, though I can understand Xisor if the whole population 'has' to be exterminated, though then with billions of guardsmen, Inquisitorial and Ministorum forces, virus bombings of specific areas if necessary, sparse ortillery bombardment, firing squads of the Adeptus Arbites, enforced death camps, sterilisation and neural lobotomation of population along with live spacing etc, though one should not waste specialised (and thus expensive) Titan ammunition for such tasks, since a las-shot or a bullet in your neck will as likely finish you effectively, too.

The reason for this would be total and utter physical as well as psychical corruption - be it by Chaos or genestealer cults, though the gritty Imperium of mankind have some rather dystopian values which broadens the field of possibilities...

Even if all traitor legions would drop and dance hula-hula somewhere, I still don't think it'd be worth exterminating the population. And certainly not Exterminatus Extremis.

Exterminatus is an inpragmatic solution which requires re-terraforming of the planet in most cases, and should never be considered, albeit a major part of a hive fleet drops on a planetary surface, then it doesn't even need consideration....

As for Titans, they are only used in groups of twelve to twenty for battleline purposes only, and, as always, many small are always far more effective than a few big and/or mighty...

Xisor
26-10-2006, 18:21
Respectfully Gen. Steiner, had I been suggesting the straw-man arguments you suggest then you make sense in your rebuke.

I am not, however, proposing Exterminatus, nor that Titans act as brilliant defences, or world-pacifiers. Look through the thread and you'll find I never did.

I am proposing extermination of the enemy. Not simply beating, or beating into submission or into retreat. Or even just routing them. I'm proposing an elaborate and careful extermination of all combatants. Not a Virus Bombing, as I'm sure some of the worlds have a perfectly nice ecosystem that can recover from Chaos, in time.

And yes; I do keep banging on about Titans. Given that we're approaching with ideally a rather immense Battlefleet we can largely pick and choose exactly where we fight Titans and where we attempt to Lance them from low orbit.

Also: I'm fully (as much as anyone can be of fictional entities) aware of the capabilities and simple limitations of Titans, there's no need to be patronising. I did not suggest they hold the Worlds. In truth I proposed the exact opposite: guardsmen hold the objectives, Titans clear them.

As a non-descript and perhaps poorly equipped PDF commander I'm pretty sure I'd much rather fight a few fully outfitted Mechanised Companies with Fire Support, Ogryn Reserves and perhaps some Russ Squadrons than a single Warlord Titan.

The_Patriot
26-10-2006, 18:29
What I said was true regarding how things would play out. The Ecclesiarchy would declare the worlds to be excommunicatus and declare them to be heretics. With such declaration, there is the War of Faith that accompanies it. Under the War of Faith all citizens on said world are to be killed with the cleansing fire of the Emperor. It wouldn't take much for the Inquisition to see that the War of Faith is true and to help the Imperium would declare an exterminatus. Since the Church has already declared them to be heretics it's a matter of rubber stamping the order to use orbital bombardment by Inquisition and Imperial Navy ships.

As I said a Forgeworld would be saved by the sheer fact it houses the technology of the God-Emperor and would be spared the exterminatus.

Voronwe[MQ]
26-10-2006, 18:33
Exterminatus Extremis are used extremely sparsely, and how much GW might na&#239;vely think it is 'cool', one shall not believe it is common practice at all.

Xisor
26-10-2006, 18:47
Clarification Time

Extermination is not necessarily Exterminatus

Extermination of the population of a world is not 'Exterminatus'

I am proposing that the vast majority of the populations are to be put to the torch, in one form or another.

Titan Stuff

I also never suggested Titans be used for routine cleansing of populations. I did propose that Titans be used to swiftly and utterly smash larger formations of PDF.

Titans also make excellent spearheads for a Take and Hold mission. You bring a hell of alot of Guardsmen or Skitarii with you to reinforce and hold the position.

Inquisitors and the Adeptus Mechanicus

The might Adeptus Mechanicus quivers before no-one. The Inquisition can ask all they want of the Mechanicus, but it is only on good grace and due to ties and clauses to the Emperor and Terra that they comply, not because they are bound by the strictures of an Inquisitor. Inquisitors will understand this, and therefore not require to be shown around the various Libraria of Mars. Trying to get access to Adeptus Mechanicus facilities on any Forgeworld by flashing an Inquisitorial Rosette or Seal (not the pinniped kind) would be the first and foremost way to find yourself turned into a Servitor (or worse) fairly pronto.

Xisor

Gen.Steiner
26-10-2006, 18:53
Alright, Xisor, as you reckon that had you "...been suggesting the straw-man arguments you suggest then you make sense in your rebuke", I'll tackle your arguments head on rather than obliquely...


I really have to disagree. You do not fight the entire planet all at once.

No? So you allow the enemy to move his troops around freely? Surely you realise that the fewer drop-sites you have, the less initative you sieze. With more troops, you can do more - surround the capital city, advance in several directions, isolate enemy military units, and make contact with the resistance (if it exists). The more men you have, the more options you have.


12 Billion people? No.

Remember: We're not looking to take the planet & population, we're looking to exterminate them.

Fair enough - and the more men you have, the easier that is. It's cheaper to do an Auschwitz or dig a hole and shoot captives into it than it is to level a city with Titans, etc. Fighter pilots, tank crews and the like will have a field day attacking refugee columns, and bio-chemical warfare units can pump toxins into hive cities.

Remember - we are looking to recover the planet. We don't want to say "The enemy are dead, but the world is a smoking ruin."


We do not send the Imperial Guard against an equivalent force, we send Titans against they're main forces and use IG to hold the line. When we're spearheading an assault against a well defended position, we subdue it with Titans and drop Pod in some marines to strike at the HQ, take on their elites or try something equally interesting. Once that's done the Baneblades, Russ Companies, Mech Infantries move in against the disoriented regiments.

I never said that you would send the Guard against an equivalent force - I said that the more men you have, the easier it is to seize a planet. Look how hard it was for the Germans to take Russia, with millions of men - and look how easy it was for the Russians to steamroller through Germany and take Berlin (during which battle, for one city, they deployed more men than Operation Barbarossa had).

A disoriented regiment doesn't make an easy target. Remember, the enemy has its own factories, its own air force, perhaps even its own navy. What do you do when a super-heavy unit is attacked by SSBMs? What happens if your Titans and Space Marines are deployed against a ruse de guerre? What if your intel is wrong and the enemy isn't where you thought they were?

The more men you have, the better you can react to these issues. So you drop Space Marines on the enemy GHQ... only for the Marines to discover that the GHQ has moved, and this site is a decoy. Simultaneously, the enemy launches a counter-attack in force using super-heavy tanks and localised air supremacy against your armoured and mechanised regiments. You're outnumbered, outmanouevered, and have no immediate reinforcements - all of which could have been avoided with more assets!


Of course our forces take casualties, but we are not looking to ever fight a significant force equally 'overall'

In Iraq, for example, the US armed forces are fighting a disparate guerilla force which has nothing like the capabilities of the US... and it's taking a steady drip-drip-drip of casualties. In Afghanistan, the USSR took massive casualties, and lost, to a guerilla force that was extremely ill-equipped (apart from the Stingers).

The more men you have, the more casualties you can afford. Remember - you're fighting on LOTS of worlds, not just one, and if you have 500,000,000 men which take casualties on each world, that adds up fast. Suddenly you've not got enough men to sieze the rest of the sector and the Crusade bogs down, then it begins to fail as the Orks renew their attacks, and BAM, you're removed from command by the Inquisition... if only you'd had more men!


If we've only half a billion guardsmen against a world with an army of hundreds, we adapt tactics so we only take major losses if:
- Our plans are dire
- We're totally outthought(ie an ambush)

An army of hundreds of what? Hundreds of millions? Hundreds of billions? And what happens when the citizens attack you as a guerilla army? Space Marines don't hold ground, after all... or rather, they shouldn't. Oh, and the Orks - what happens if an Ork Waaagh! appears and starts attacking you in space, and then lands troops on the ground to get you - in addition to the insurgents, the CSM, the daemons (possibly), the enemy titans, the enemy super-heavies and Dark Mechanicus creations... your tactics will work if nothing unexpected occurs.

And that's a fatal mistake to make if you're a military strategist.

Speaking of which, are you guarding your lines of supply? With so few men, you'll be pushed to protect them properly, which will leave you open to being cut off, surrounded, and destroyed. Whereas, with two billion men attacking this planet, all your lines of supply can be properly secured.


Given that we're attacking with a force consisting of hig-end Imperial special forces, and fighting with an IG force which is similarly equipped, but generally quite superior to almost all PDF forces this shouldn't be a problem.

You're assuming here that the renegade Forgeworld isn't supplying the enemy, and furthermore that there'll be no unexpected events. Oh look - the traitors have innovated and created an excellent hand-held anti-armour weapon! Now you're taking more casualties than you thought, and you can't attack the next world without a serious re-supply, but you can't, because you haven't taken the forgeworld, and you've already sealed the deal with the AdTerra and the rest of them. Woops!


We can stand better for an assurance of victory with dozens of men for every one of theirs, or we can think it out and fight with a dillapidated force consisting of seventeen ice-fighter regiments, fourteen pathfinder groups, twelve heavy artiller regiments, eighteen seige regiments, half a platoon of drop troops, several dozen penal regiments and maybe a regiment or two who're suitable for any of the worlds we're to fight upon.

Half a platoon of drop troops!? HALF A PLATOON!? HAHAHA!

Seriously, the force you propose is enough to threaten maybe a small country - but a world? No. Half a platoon of drop troops is literally laughable. Why not try inserting a regiment... and another two behind enemy lines, and a fourth in another area six thousand miles away, and yet another to capture a refinery, perhaps. Half a platoon will simply get shot down and wiped out.

You're not thinking like the Imperium - more is better, and they have more Guardsmen than they really know what to do with. Why use 500,000,000 men and have to plan very, very carefully, and take no risks at all... when you could supply billions and be certain of victory.


We're not looking to seize the populations, we're looking to exterminate. They're tainted by Chaos. Conducting sufficient door-to-door Inquisitorial purges would take a lifetime, simply exterminating all inhabitiants is alot easier. Especially with daytime-rechargable lasguns...

Xisor

Exacly - and the more men you have, the easier it is to do. 500,000,000 would take years to exterminate a world - 6,000,000,000 v 500,000,000? Try 6,000,000,000 v 2,000,000,000 - that's six people for every one soldier, rather than 12 to one in the first - your - scenario.

Seriously, Titans etc are all very well, but at the end of the day it's the dog soldiers who'll win the day.

Voronwe[MQ]
26-10-2006, 19:07
No? So you allow the enemy to move his troops around freely? Surely you realise that the fewer drop-sites you have, the less initative you sieze. With more troops, you can do more - surround the capital city, advance in several directions, isolate enemy military units, and make contact with the resistance (if it exists). The more men you have, the more options you have.

Exactly. Since only a fool would view a whole world to be the size of Europe (in which case it would be possible), and the hostile capabilities completely inferior to one's own. Initiative was the main thing I thought of when I wrote that one must fight over almost the whole world to succeed.

No sarcasm intended towards you, Xisor. I've already got one warning of the =][= for 'aggressivity' when I meant it jovially, so I think I should make myself clear on this point.

Xisor
26-10-2006, 19:46
No? So you allow the enemy to move his troops around freely? Surely you realise that the fewer drop-sites you have, the less initative you sieze. With more troops, you can do more - surround the capital city, advance in several directions, isolate enemy military units, and make contact with the resistance (if it exists). The more men you have, the more options you have. Again, it's straw-man after straw-man. I never suggested allowing the enemy free reign. My plan hinges very heavily on fighting with orbital supremacy. If you've orbital supremacy then it is very much the case that you simply cannot just move troops around freely.

Of course, I freely admit my plan works better with a whole lot more troops, but that's not my case. The point I'm aiming at is that you don't need that much (12 Billion) to take them on. Given the size of the fleet I've proposed, and that it's now a Subsector I think I'm taking on rather than a Sector, and that Battlefleet Gothic struggled against a Black Crusade with less ships and a (presumably) more coordinated enemy. I'm simply disputing that we require anywhere near as much as you suggest.


Fair enough - and the more men you have, the easier that is. It's cheaper to do an Auschwitz or dig a hole and shoot captives into it than it is to level a city with Titans, etc. Fighter pilots, tank crews and the like will have a field day attacking refugee columns, and bio-chemical warfare units can pump toxins into hive cities.

Quite, I entirely agree. But i'm not proposing we send Titans, Marines and Robots around to cleanse folks. Assuming the Dempartmento Munitorum recognise the needs of the Crusade then we'll already be arriving with light (ie not full-on Virus Bombs and Cyclonic Torpedoes) bio-chemical warfare units.


Remember - we are looking to recover the planet. We don't want to say "The enemy are dead, but the world is a smoking ruin."

Again, I don't recall mentioning I wanted to destroy the infrastrucure of the planet. Did I miss that?


I never said that you would send the Guard against an equivalent force - I said that the more men you have, the easier it is to seize a planet. And I'm saying it can be done with less than you're proposing. Weight of numbers makes it easier, but it's also the case that having twice as many men doesn't by default make it twice as easy.


A disoriented regiment doesn't make an easy target. Remember, the enemy has its own factories, its own air force, perhaps even its own navy. What do you do when a super-heavy unit is attacked by SSBMs? What happens if your Titans and Space Marines are deployed against a ruse de guerre? What if your intel is wrong and the enemy isn't where you thought they were?

Again, the plan hinges on Orbital (at least) superiority. The stages are quite critical to the planning. With the size of fleet we have it is quite a gamble, but one I'd generally take (offhand), to simply destroy/neuter the more massive surface/orbital defences from low/high orbit.

If I go with the incorporation of 'our intel is wrong', perhaps I should consider 'what if the crusade fails?' Of course not, we all know that. An initial plan simply isn't going to incorporate all the necessary back ups, counter-plan ideas etc.


The more men you have, the better you can react to these issues. So you drop Space Marines on the enemy GHQ... only for the Marines to discover that the GHQ has moved, and this site is a decoy. Simultaneously, the enemy launches a counter-attack in force using super-heavy tanks and localised air supremacy against your armoured and mechanised regiments. You're outnumbered, outmanouevered, and have no immediate reinforcements - all of which could have been avoided with more assets! But how do you know that what I'm proposing isn't enough assets? The argument, as it stands, isn't a case of 'Xisor your plan is flawed' but simply 'What if...'. The afore-proposed 12 Billion Guardsmen would not necessarilly mean that you aren't hopelessly outnumbered when you arrive. If we really have to be abstract about it: when do we decide what is a safe number?



In Iraq, for example, the US armed forces are fighting a disparate guerilla force which has nothing like the capabilities of the US... and it's taking a steady drip-drip-drip of casualties. In Afghanistan, the USSR took massive casualties, and lost, to a guerilla force that was extremely ill-equipped (apart from the Stingers).

The upside (if entirely inhuman!) part of my proposal is that I don't intend to 'just be fighting the enemy army formations'. I don't see how this shoots a hole in my plan. Having an even larger force doesn't mean it'll be wielded better at all.



The more men you have, the more casualties you can afford. Again: Xisor =! Stupid (debatable)



Remember - you're fighting on LOTS of worlds, not just one, and if you have 500,000 men which take casualties on each world, that adds up fast.

I am? I thought what I was proposing was my plan? When did I suggest we split the fleet into an attack against lots of worlds simultaneously? I note that I'd rather avoid the fleet splitting past a division of roughly six assets. From there, I'd hope each individual asset would account for at most one system, and probably only to about four systems at a time (short of dedicated fleet-hunting engagements).

I don't see why I'd be engaging world after world of billions of people. It's a generic subsector with a Forgeworld.

Let's say twelve populated/strategic systems:
1 Forgeworld
3 Mining
2 Agri
2 Uninhabited
1 Small Hiveworld(a big problem) or Large Civilised world (again, a big problem overall)
3 'Civilised through Feral' worlds

I'm not sure, offhand, which the first I'd pick to go against would be. I'd, of course, need to weigh all the information we have about them, which we do not have at the time.


Suddenly you've not got enough men to sieze the rest of the sector and the Crusade bogs down, then it begins to fail as the Orks renew their attacks, and BAM, you're removed from command by the Inquisition... if only you'd had more men!

Subsector.

Orks would indeed be a problem though. Much of my plan so far was not against Orks, but Chaos worlds with the Orks as a minor threat/hassle in the background, like the Orks of the Cyclops Cluster.


An army of hundreds of what? Hundreds of millions? Hundreds of billions? Should have been hundreds of millions, but anyway.


And what happens when the citizens attack you as a guerilla army? Space Marines don't hold ground, after all... or rather, they shouldn't. You fight them as you do a guerilla army. I'm not well versed in the specifics, but I suspect no-one is seeing as I do not believe we (as a race at this time) know a sure-fire method of eliminating guerilla armies.

A first suggestion on my part would be to deploy a few guerilla armies of our own, and simply deal with the losses. Many Marine Chapters are known for highly effective Guerilla fighting...


Oh, and the Orks - what happens if an Ork Waaagh! appears and starts attacking you in space, and then lands troops on the ground to get you - in addition to the insurgents, the CSM, the daemons (possibly), the enemy titans, the enemy super-heavies and Dark Mechanicus creations... your tactics will work if nothing unexpected occurs.

Sigh. This clearly (if it is, then everything has been seriously underestimated and the Crusade is largely doomed regardless) not the prevailing case for the subsector. Not 'will work if nothing unexpected...', but 'will work better if nothing unexpected...'.

Why stop at 12 Billion and two Marine Chapter equivs when we could apply 100 Billion and Seventy Chapters?


And that's a fatal mistake to make if you're a military strategist. And once more: Xisor =! stupid. I've no intent of simply programming the crusade for one plan of action and sending it at the enemy whilst making no provision for changes. What I am doing is outlining the first and initial plan. The 'ideal' plan if you wish...


Speaking of which, are you guarding your lines of supply? With so few men, you'll be pushed to protect them properly, which will leave you open to being cut off, surrounded, and destroyed. Whereas, with two billion men attacking this planet, all your lines of supply can be properly secured. So 12 Billion overall means I can successfully secure myself against this unknown, potentially overwhelming, potentially better-all-round, potentially superiorly equipped, undefined enemy? Better than I can with 2 Billion Guardsmen?

I understand that with more men, then it is clearly more secure (not necesarily proportional by default), but I don't see where the strict "2 Billion is not enough 12 Billion is" approach is coming from (unless I've read that wrong, in which case this argument could be circular).


You're assuming here that the renegade Forgeworld isn't supplying the enemy, and furthermore that there'll be no unexpected events. :wtf: I am? Where did I lay that down? Exactly and precisely tell me where?

Of course the Forgeworld will be supplying the worlds, just like many Forgeworlds will probably have supplied the start-up fund for my Crusade. So?


Oh look - the traitors have innovated and created an excellent hand-held anti-armour weapon!
That beats the next mans plan as much as it beats mine. So, unless I'm entirely mistaken I'm being told that: "If something happens that beats me, I'll be beaten by it?"


Now you're taking more casualties than you thought, and you can't attack the next world without a serious re-supply, but you can't, because you haven't taken the forgeworld, and you've already sealed the deal with the AdTerra and the rest of them. Woops!

:wtf: Again, the exact same can happen with 12 Billion as it can with 2 Billion.


Half a platoon of drop troops!? HALF A PLATOON!? HAHAHA!

Read the damn suggestion. What I was suggesting is that I understand the Crusade will likely be far tougher than I'm laying it down to be. I ask for 2 Billion, and I propose that I get that lot. That's the first instance of my detailing the 'second iteration' of the plan: when things start going wrong. And they typically start at the beginning: with the Adeptus Terra.


Seriously, the force you propose is enough to threaten maybe a small country - but a world? No. Half a platoon of drop troops is literally laughable. Why not try inserting a regiment... and another two behind enemy lines, and a fourth in another area six thousand miles away, and yet another to capture a refinery, perhaps. Half a platoon will simply get shot down and wiped out.
:rolleyes:

Yes, it is indeed laughable. But, if you were the Warmaster, you'd applied for your 12 Billion Guardsmen alone (where, precisely, is your fleet? to ask a question[note this is in direct parody of your own questions: clearly you would have a fleet, you simply haven't specified it]) and then recieved the forces I list there, how do you move forward? Do you turn around to the vast beuracracy of Terra and say "I wanted more" after 50 years of waiting in the first place, or do you simply re-arrange your initial plans and make do with what you're given/can blag extra.


You're not thinking like the Imperium

Oh I'm not, am I?



- more is better, and they have more Guardsmen than they really know what to do with.

No, no they don't. They have more humans than they know what to do with. They, as of the 13th Black Crusade era, outputting Guardsmen and ships and munitions at full capacity, and are still being beaten back in almost every larger case.


Why use 500,000 men and have to plan very, very carefully, and take no risks at all... when you could supply billions and be certain of victory.

I really do suspect I'm thinking more in lines of the Imperium than yourself. Why? Because the Adeptus Terra does not throw bucket after bucket of men at the enemy. They throw as much as they can afford, and as they have available. I'm proposing that 2 Billion is an upper maximum for an 'average' figure of Guardsmen. Sure, it's not a world away from 12 Billion, but it's still a suggestion. They'll suffer more than the 12 Billion will, but not as much as if we had 100 Billion. Or a gazillion. :rolleyes:



Exacly - and the more men you have, the easier it is to do. 500,000 would take years to exterminate a world - 6,000,000,000 v 500,000? Try 6,000,000,000 v 2,000,000,000 - that's six people for every one soldier, rather than 12,000 (!) to one in the first - your - scenario.

Again, in the numbers game that's all very well. But Crusading isn't a numbers game. 12,000 to one is all very well, but if I've an infrastructure of the form of a suitable fleet (and the one I propose is vastly superior to what I'd expect, but it's not necessarily even enough to do the job) then I see no problem with fighting 12,000:1, so long as I don't need to fight them all at once...

A crusade also takes a long time, and I don't imagine the world's populace to be exterminated in a week. I'm not sure of the time frame, but applying soldiers against a force 6:1 is quite feasible...providing the entire planet doesn't fly a Marauder and drive a Baneblade individually...


Seriously, Titans etc are all very well, but at the end of the day it's the dog soldiers who'll win the day.

Is it? Is it really? How, precisely, do you judge that? Will all those dog soldiers win without a fleet? Will they even get near them without a fleet? What if the Adeptus Terra fails to assign Shadowswords and Laser Destroyers, and happens to leave your fleet short of any lances? And you get a force of Space Marines with no landspeeders? How do you propose to take out those enemy Titans?

Of course, that's me being pedantic. Combined arms across the forces of the Imperium will win the day. Titans are "easily" used to try and smash large formations in spearhead roles. I've proposed nothing different. Nor did I you'd win the crusade with them. But if your enemies are fighting in the form of 6 Billion Strong armies filled with Leman Russ regiments and Super Heavies from the local Forge-o-Mart then perhaps a Titan or two will be of immense value.

If it turns out that I've to fight a force consisting soley of guerillas then we adapt our tactics...

Xisor

Voronwe[MQ]
26-10-2006, 20:06
Aha! I understand that your proposed tactic relies mostly on relatively complex plans heavily dependant of rapid redeployment and reactive, aggressive moves. It is interesting, though then it is also a master tactician's (and, speculating that you commands on global scale, also strategist's) 'dance of war'. Complex plans have a tendency to fall apart, but if you (assuming you have deployed over the majority of the planet's surface) are relatively 'independent' of continued supplies, are able to keep going and focusing on the right things and hitting where it hurts, then it would be an extremely succesful one.

malika
26-10-2006, 20:12
I would definately keep the Space Marine numbers at a certain minimum, there are only a million Space Marines in the entire Imperium. So I doubt there would be tons of chapters fighting there. The equilavent of a single chapter might be present, not even a single Space Marine. During the Macharian Crusade not a single Space Marines was deployed, everything was done by the IG and other elements of the Imperial military.

Xisor
26-10-2006, 20:29
The equilavent of a single chapter might be present, not even a single Space Marine. During the Macharian Crusade not a single Space Marines was deployed, everything was done by the IG and other elements of the Imperial military.

Macharius did have a rather impressive force of Guardsmen, however. Quite something entirely from the kind of ragtag ad-hoc deployments brought together to defend Cadia and Armageddon...


;1035063']Aha! I understand that your proposed tactic relies mostly on relatively complex plans heavily dependant of rapid redeployment and reactive, aggressive moves.

No, not really. My plan first and foremost relies upon attaining orbital supremacy. I don't know about anyone elses plan (since it seems to be only mine going under the analytical microscope), but the resources I've proposed back up the style you go on to propose just as much as it would if I had 12 Billion Guardsmen at my disposal.



;1035063']are relatively 'independent' of continued supplies, are able to keep going and focusing on the right things and hitting where it hurts, then it would be an extremely succesful one.

Indeed, but I don't see how the forces I propose decisively cannot do this any less than anyone elses...

I also don't see how you arrive at this statement. My proposal accounts for having 'not' enough resources to do everything such that you take the subsector in a matter of weeks. The question, of course, is what do you need to do that?

12 Billion Guardsmen? 2 Billion all light infantry with a a significant proportion of heavier troops?

If my 2 Billion consist of 1.5 Billion disposed directly towards being deployed and becoming independent, then a force of 0.5 Billion tactical reserves (i.e. applied as you percieve my plan in a reactive dance of war) is almost competent. It'd be a long war, but there's no real cause for saying whether any battle would go in my favour as a decisive victory as opposed to falling on it's face...

Xisor

malika
26-10-2006, 20:32
Macharius did have a rather impressive force of Guardsmen, however. Quite something entirely from the kind of ragtag ad-hoc deployments brought together to defend Cadia and Armageddon...
True, but Cadia and Armageddon were more oriented so that every Marine player could join in so GW would make money ;) I think that the Imperial Guard would have a way bigger role in these things normally. On retaking a subsector or even a sector I assume you would see many kinds of IG regiments from the surrounding sectors. I assume that the Warmaster would pick his forces wisely and go for that.

GW focusses too much on the Space Marines since they are the poster boys, but most of the work gets done by the IG I think.

Aun'aart'al
26-10-2006, 22:01
this has somehow turned into a near flaming thread, certainly not what I intented for this thread :eyebrows: we're all civilised people here, I'm sure, so let's discuss this sort of topic in a civilised manner, without resorting to laughing at another for what they post, or calling another person what you think they are

excellent points are being made, as well as excellent arguments. I suppose it's up to me now then to get this thread back on the nice track.

How many (in your opinions) super-heavy tanks would be included if a renegade FW is being involved? and for the sake of argument, let's make a comprimise for the number of Imperial Guard, to say.. 50 billion Imperial Guardsmen being part of the Crusade force coming into the sector. So now theres no need to argue anymore! :p lol


Arguing over the internet is like competing in the Special Olympics; Even if you win, you're still retarded.

Now with keeping that in mind, let's get this discussion going in the right way again :)

So, how many super-heavy tanks would be involved, if not could be involved in the whole of the Crusader force,

What are the ranks for each Army division. As in, what ranked officer would be in-charge of each army, and what sort of military resources would be under his command? I'd prefer this broken down into as much detail as possible (me luvvers details! :p )

because the Mechanicus has strong needs to be apart of the Crusade, what sort of Naval assets would they provide? do they have cruisers of their own classification? If they do I havent found anything in the BFG rulebook, however fluff-wise it would make sence.

A colonising fleet has been brought up several times. What sort of fleet would this be like? as in, what would the composition be like? mostly transports? or would they have some protection amongst them?

10th clancannach rangers
26-10-2006, 22:04
There are only 1 million marines in the imperium, and limited numbers of titans. What the imperium does have is an almost neverending supply of people, who can become guardsmen. This means that the imperial guard is its main resource and battle winner. As is often said it holds the enemy in place while the shiny stuff hits it. Therefore there needs to be enough guardsmen to deal with all enemy on the world.

Also it seems to be assumed that the other worlds in the sub-secter are sitting and watching while one world is getting annhilated. Surely the crusade will not be able to take 1 system without other troops coming to help.

malika
26-10-2006, 22:18
Dont forget that the Imperial Guard as elite units such as Stormtroopers or other elite factions from regiments such as the Karskin. (sp?)

The Imperial Navy would also have a pretty big role, not only in space, but also the bombers and fighters which fight on the planet.

Aun'aart'al
26-10-2006, 22:22
Dont forget that the Imperial Guard as elite units such as Stormtroopers or other elite factions from regiments such as the Karskin. (sp?)

The Imperial Navy would also have a pretty big role, not only in space, but also the bombers and fighters which fight on the planet.

I thought the Karskrin only fight on Cadia? being some sort of special unit for the planet..? As for the Imperial Navy, yes I would imagine the bombers attacking a single world would number in the hundreds of thousands, and the fighters being twice, if not triple the number (ample protection)

the Stormtrooper count in the crusader force, I would think the Warmaster would be able to get his hands on several dozen companies, if not a little over a hundred.

Also, just as a side question; what are the chances of having a female warmaster? or is the Imperium completely sexist when it comes to the title of Warmaster?

malika
26-10-2006, 22:44
I thought the Karskrin only fight on Cadia? being some sort of special unit for the planet..?
Thats what I meant to say, I assume that other worlds would have specialised elite units similar to the Karskrin as well.



the Stormtrooper count in the crusader force, I would think the Warmaster would be able to get his hands on several dozen companies, if not a little over a hundred.
I was more thinking in the lines of several regiments.



Also, just as a side question; what are the chances of having a female warmaster? or is the Imperium completely sexist when it comes to the title of Warmaster?
I think a female warmaster would be very interesting and possible to see. You might want to check this (http://anargo-sector.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1013) out, CELS is working on the concept of a matriarchical world for the ASP.

Gen.Steiner
26-10-2006, 23:57
:rolleyes:

I never called you stupid, Xisor...

Anyway, if you want me to play Warmaster so you can criticise my idea, then I shall. :D

Goals of Crusade:

To return Subsector X to the light of the God-Emperor of Humanity and to bring the Pax Imperium to the Subsector,
To liberate the Forgeworld from heresy, and ensure that the Omnissiah's creations remain as intact as possible,
To destroy treason and heresy wherever it may be encountered,
To remove the Ork scourge,
To destroy or drive off the Traitor Legionnaires,
To ensure that the planets reconquered are re-habitable;
To save as much as possible of the Subsector's infrastructure.

Ideal Forces (Space):

Imperial Navy:

2 Ramilles-class Star Forts.
10 or 11 Battleships.
20 Battlecruisers.
40 Cruisers.
80-100 Frigates.
200-250 Destroyers.
- attendant fighters, bombers, etc.

Transport for:
10 billion Guard (details to follow).
2 Titan Legions.
4 Skitarii Legions.
Supplies for same (with an eye to seizing more during the crusade).

Adeptus Astartes:
1 Battlebarge.
2 Strike Cruisers.
4-6 Escorts.

Ground Forces:

Imperial Guard:

5x 2 billion Invasion Forces, each comprised:

55% infantry: 5% light, 10% medium, 10% drop troops, 10% heavy, 20% mechanised.
20% armour - including super-heavy tanks.
20% artillery.
5% Specialised Regiments: Siege, Stormtroopers, etc.

Logistics to be supplied as usual by Adeptus Munitorium. Transport for AdMun to be provided, as usual, by IN.

Adeptus Mechanicus:

2x Titan Legions, each of:
- 1 or 2 Imperator Titans
- 6-7 Warlord Titans
- 10 Battle Titans
- 15-20 Warhound Titans

4x Skitarii Legions (each of ~1 million men).

Ordinatus - one, preferably two.

Space Marines:

One Chapter, comprised either of, well, one Chapter, or of strike forces from differing Chapters.

Ecclesiarchy:

5x Adepta Sororitas Preceptories (the level below the whole Order, right?
Red Redemptionists (unknown number - depends on the involvement of the Ecclesiarchy).

Inquisitorial Assets:

Five or six Inquisitors. Ordo and rank immaterial.
Grey Knights Strike Team (20-40 Marines) and Strike Cruiser.
Deathwatch Kill-team.
Assassins (classified, unlikely to recieve more than 3 or 4, perhaps one from each temple on standby/in stasis).
Black Ships. One or two.

The Plan:

Split the Imperial Guard into five invasion forces, each two billion strong. Assign Titan and Skitarii support to whichever force is going to attack the strongest defences. Two Skitarii legions per Titan Legion.

Space Marines, well, do their own thing, but I'd like them to hit GHQs and lines of supply, you know, the usual.

Space superiority is to be obtained within the Forgeworld system, and that system will be subdued first. Each IF will hit a different world within the system. If there are more IFs than worlds, more than one IF will be assigned to a planet. One IF will be tasked with securing space-born facilities, while its armour and artillery assets etc are used as reinforcements for other IFs.

Once the Forgeworld is recaptured, and the system secured, the IN contingent will split in two. One Ramilles and 10% of the fleet will remain in the FW system, while the remaining Ramilles and fleet will move to attack the next most important system - perhaps a Prom-producing one. The Ramilles will deploy here, and the fleet again split - another 10% to defend, and the remaining forces to accompany the five Invasion Forces on a roaming assault to reduce the subsector system-by-system.

I envisage the campaign taking enough time for the final system to be attacked using troopers from the first two systems conquered.

I would also at all times ensure that the Ecclesiarchy was tasked with securing reconquered planets. The Ork presence would be hunted down - although it's likely that they'll come to us - and engaged with vastly superior numbers, or, if that is impossible, will be defeated in a fleet-fleet engagement.

The Traitor Marines will be trailed by the Grey Knights and Space Marines, accompanied by a small portion of the IN and an Invasion Force to ensure that any TM base can be reduced as quickly as possible. If it goes pear-shaped, a Titan Legion will be brought in to assist.

That, I think, is the bare bones of my plan - slow and steady reduction of the subsector system by system, utilising overwhelming numbers and superiority in air and space.

Of course, I expect to get around a tenth of that force, so in the event I suspect that I will be taking even longer than I plan.

Xisor
27-10-2006, 01:41
I never called you stupid, Xisor...

Fair enough. I quite apologise for getting...animated...over things. I maintain, however, that a certain pair of you ( :eyebrows: ) directed arguments at me based on assumptions of what I'm saying as if I 'had' said them. And other bits were quite patronising.

In any event: moving on.


Anyway, if you want me to play Warmaster so you can criticise my idea, then I shall. :D

Smashing! Prepare to engage pedantic drive, factor seven...

Goals of Crusade:

To return Subsector X to the light of the God-Emperor of Humanity and to bring the Pax Imperium to the Subsector,
To liberate the Forgeworld from heresy, and ensure that the Omnissiah's creations remain as intact as possible,
To destroy treason and heresy wherever it may be encountered,
To remove the Ork scourge,
To destroy or drive off the Traitor Legionnaires,
To ensure that the planets reconquered are re-habitable;
To save as much as possible of the Subsector's infrastructure.[/quote]

Sounds spot on.


[b]Ideal Forces (Space):

Ideal is key for all of us. I'll do well to keep that in mind :angel:


Imperial Navy:

2 Ramilles-class Star Forts.
10 or 11 Battleships.
20 Battlecruisers.
40 Cruisers.
80-100 Frigates.
200-250 Destroyers.
- attendant fighters, bombers, etc.

First off, whilst I know it's ideal: this is an immense amount of fleet. For clairity's sake: it's quite a substantial amount over and above the range of typical sector Battlefleets (and Battlefleet Gothic was quite well equipped for a sector...)


Transport for:
10 billion Guard (details to follow).
2 Titan Legions.
4 Skitarii Legions.
Supplies for same (with an eye to seizing more during the crusade).


Given that one of the important aims of the Crusade is the recapture of a Forgeworld, I'd be very keen to seen the number of Skitarii Legions increased. Otherwise, I can live with that lot.


Adeptus Astartes:
1 Battlebarge.
2 Strike Cruisers.
4-6 Escorts.

A generous offer given the outlook of this as a 'not quite glorious shiny' Crusade. I'd propose, however, that it is 4-6 Escort Squadrons rather than 4-6 Escorts. Essentially that at least doubles/trebles the numbers, but I can honestly see a few Chapters only sending 14 Marines on board a single frigate...

(In this sense, I'm sortof unhappy with the idea that Marine Escorts typically operate in Squadrons, but for the purposes of BFG-analogy, I'll stick to the nomenclature)


Ground Forces:

Imperial Guard:

5x 2 billion Invasion Forces, each comprised:

55% infantry: 5% light, 10% medium, 10% drop troops, 10% heavy, 20% mechanised.
20% armour - including super-heavy tanks.
20% artillery.
5% Specialised Regiments: Siege, Stormtroopers, etc.

Logistics to be supplied as usual by Adeptus Munitorium. Transport for AdMun to be provided, as usual, by IN.

Nominally speaking, I'd typically have included 'Drop Troops' as part of the specialised forces. A more intricate force, especially given our previous bandying of the prospect of 'Guerilla Forces', is to put Drop Troops in with Specialised Regiments and draw up light infantry in place of Drop Troops.

That is:
10% Specialised (Incorporating not only Storm Troopers, but Seige Battalions[Seigemaster, DKoK], Grenadier Formations[Kasrkin Deployments], Drop Troops[Elysians/Harkonnians], Abhumans[Ogryns, Ratlings, Afriels, Gland Warriors etc])
10% Light Infantry
Rather than the breakdown you mention.

With respect to Armour & Artillery:
I propose a 40% Total Split on armour:
1% Specialist Super Heavies (Inc Leviathans/CI)
4% Valkyrie, Vulture and similars
10% Field and Moveable Artillery (Manticores/Basilisks)
3% Seige Artillery (Griffons etc)
2-7% Super Heavy Tanks and equipment(anything not SH is split between the rest as required used as a 5% 'buffer')
13% Main Line Battletanks (Russ', Russ Variants & Hellhounds, potentially also Ragnaroks and the like for Seige Regiments)
2% Scout Vehicles (Sentinels, Salamanders etc)

I can't see anything that's terribly, if at all, different to your disposition, I just went further on the breakdown of it.


Adeptus Mechanicus:

2x Titan Legions, each of:
- 1 or 2 Imperator Titans
- 6-7 Warlord Titans
- 10 Battle Titans
- 15-20 Warhound Titans

Oh nonono! It's sortof backwards! Reavers and Warlords (aka Battle Titans) form the vast bulk of Titans, Warhounds and Imperators are rare

That is, assuming, you want 'Titan Legions', rather than those being your specific desired overall forces. (You'd never get 'em IMO ;) )

In terms of something more akin to Titan Legion format as I'd propose they're deployed:

0-1 Imperator Titans
6-12 Warlord Titans
6-12 Reaver Titans (Reavers & Warlords should add up to ~18 together)
4-8 Warhound Titans
X Knights


4x Skitarii Legions (each of ~1 million men).

Ordinatus - one, preferably two.

Providing that Forgeworlds are very well...developed in terms of personel, I strongly suspect an increase in Skitarii Legions would be advisable. I'm going (and it seems you are too) on the assumption that the Cataphracts and Hyspatists etc are all dispersed through the Tech Guard legions in roughly suitable manner (having little in depth info on the general breakup of all this is a bit of a loss) as well as inclusion and provision for both Robot Cohorts(Legions) and Knights...


Space Marines:

One Chapter, comprised either of, well, one Chapter, or of strike forces from differing Chapters.

To further specify if not the 'ideal' setup, at least a rough guesstimate:

2-4 'Battle Companies' worth of Marines
0-3 'Reserve, First and Scout Companies' worth of Marines
Sufficient Marines to man the Ships...

My general opinion would be a conglomerate of half-companies and random squads assigned. It's a crusade afterall, it'll likely get 'token' attention at least.


Ecclesiarchy:

5x Adepta Sororitas Preceptories (the level below the whole Order, right?
Red Redemptionists (unknown number - depends on the involvement of the Ecclesiarchy).

I'm afraid I still am at a loss with the Ecclesiarchy myself. I'd propose 'Red Redepmtionists' are allowed in sufficient numbers in 'Pilgrim Transports'. It's a crusade afterall. If we go with about a million or two of them (a ship from almost every system in the viscinity of the crusade's formation...)


Inquisitorial Assets:

Five or six Inquisitors. Ordo and rank immaterial.

Quite, and I'd suggest that those'd just be the affilliated/openly recognised known ones acting in almost orthodox fashion alongside the Crusade. Of course there'd be a good handful/portion more acting in concert/against the whole Crusade too...but that's really diverging from the point[/i]


Grey Knights Strike Team (20-40 Marines) and Strike Cruiser.
Sounds good!

Deathwatch Kill-team.
I'd have suggested a fair bit more than one. Though, on saying that, if Deathwatch go up in numbers then I'm happy (given the Ork threat) to see the 'other' Marine complement drop to less than two assorted companies...


Assassins (classified, unlikely to recieve more than 3 or 4, perhaps one from each temple on standby/in stasis).
Sounds about right, IMO. Could be way higher, or significantly lower.


Black Ships. One or two.

I can sit with that now, seeing that the major threat probably isn't Chaos incarnate.

Additional Proposals that I feel you've missed/simply forgotten about/willfully disregarded/etc

Adeptus Arbites? Given that your splitting the force into five Invasion forces, I'd suggest a minima of:
5 Punisher Class Strike Cruisers and associated Spaceborne Precincts (they may disengage from the Crusade as required, and should generally not be factored into many plans as a strong force, soley reserve)
Transports sufficient to deploy as many Precincts (of varying pre-proposed sizes) as planets are targets of the Crusade.


The Plan:

Split the Imperial Guard into five invasion forces, each two billion strong. Assign Titan and Skitarii support to whichever force is going to attack the strongest defences. Two Skitarii legions per Titan Legion.

Fair enough. Ordinatus Deployments?


Space Marines, well, do their own thing, but I'd like them to hit GHQs and lines of supply, you know, the usual.

Again, seems fair enough.


Space superiority is to be obtained within the Forgeworld system, and that system will be subdued first. Each IF will hit a different world within the system. If there are more IFs than worlds, more than one IF will be assigned to a planet. One IF will be tasked with securing space-born facilities, while its armour and artillery assets etc are used as reinforcements for other IFs.

How would you consider, in comparison, the prospect of an Orbital Blockade of the Forgeworld, and first focusing on outlying systems with multiple Invasion forces, but bearing some entire IFs in reserve, and steadily moving through the system to the Forgeworld?

An alternate plan would be to attain/strive for immediate orbital supremacy of the Forgeworld and seize it initially, seeking to repel counter-assaults from off-world in space primarily?

Additionally, and this is a more general question: Are you sure sending non-Mechanicus forces to a Forgeworld is a wise move? Whilst militaristically it may be suitable, I suspect politically there would be immense opposition. Thoughts?


Once the Forgeworld is recaptured, and the system secured, the IN contingent will split in two. One Ramilles and 10% of the fleet will remain in the FW system, while the remaining Ramilles and fleet will move to attack the next most important system - perhaps a Prom-producing one. The Ramilles will deploy here, and the fleet again split - another 10% to defend, and the remaining forces to accompany the five Invasion Forces on a roaming assault to reduce the subsector system-by-system.

Again fair enough. My main reservation is the secure movement of the Ramillies. If the defence forces are forewarned suitably, then moving a Ramillies alongside assault fleets and IFs would be an incredibly unwieldy operation. Immense momentum, true, but it'd be a crucially vulnerable opening gambit. Would you consider any more prominent alternatives to the Ramillies as suitable (not 'just another big space station', of course they're suitable!), such as a contingent of 'Reserve' Grand Cruisers to function as a 'Base of operations' or similar?


I envisage the campaign taking enough time for the final system to be attacked using troopers from the first two systems conquered.


I would also at all times ensure that the Ecclesiarchy was tasked with securing reconquered planets.

This is, IMO, a major flaw. Though I don't know if it's simply a slip or omission. The Adeptus Arbites would surely oversee the initial security and implacement of structure upon a reconquered world? Perhaps in concordance with the Ecclesiarchy, but the lack of mention of Arbites was somewhat worrying.



The Ork presence would be hunted down - although it's likely that they'll come to us - and engaged with vastly superior numbers, or, if that is impossible, will be defeated in a fleet-fleet engagement.

Ref: The Gothic War and Orks of the Cylcops Cluster. Unless they're engaged in a Waaagh! they're intensely piratical, and probably will not be open to fleet engagements. Hunting them down with superior numbers is perhaps too ideal, and not accounting for rather obvious problems associated with Orks in particular...superior numbers often exacerbate the problem (look at Armageddon), and they'll have set up shop in the Subsector for quite a while. Getting them out of that Asteroid Belt, Nebula or massive debris field may (as in: quite likely, I'd say) be alot more difficult than a simple 'Imperial Fleet' can handle.


The Traitor Marines will be trailed by the Grey Knights and Space Marines, accompanied by a small portion of the IN and an Invasion Force to ensure that any TM base can be reduced as quickly as possible. If it goes pear-shaped, a Titan Legion will be brought in to assist.

Traitor Marine Base? Unless they've 'taken' a World, I highly doubt they'll be as easy as that (in which case it will be alot closer to that!)

My main worry for the Traitors is:
- Significant fleet presence (better Warp Nav, faster ships), probably of one of the more established 'fighty' legions: Death Guard (very serious problem- Plagues of Unbelief, Zombies), Iron Warriors (heavy armament, could pose a tremendous set back if arrayed against a single IF) or something like the Night Lords (serious harrasment)
- Untraceable/insidious chapters such as Word Bearers or Alpha Legion could be the alternative to a fleet based Legion.


That, I think, is the bare bones of my plan - slow and steady reduction of the subsector system by system, utilising overwhelming numbers and superiority in air and space.

Overwhelming numbers still really doesn't feel a sound tactic, but given the past discussion I'm fairly confident it's a simplification more'n anything. As I said: my main worries are-

- Careful coordination of Chaos, especially if fleet based
- Innability to shift Orks from their space-lairs, let alone any planets
- A lack of Skitarii/Adeptus Mechanicus focus for taking the Forgeworld
- A general lack of Adeptus Arbites...


Of course, I expect to get around a tenth of that force, so in the event I suspect that I will be taking even longer than I plan.

Quite, and I heartily agree.

It feels quite nice not to be so agitated anymore...

Xisor

The_Patriot
27-10-2006, 02:35
I'm afraid I still am at a loss with the Ecclesiarchy myself. I'd propose 'Red Redepmtionists' are allowed in sufficient numbers in 'Pilgrim Transports'. It's a crusade afterall. If we go with about a million or two of them (a ship from almost every system in the viscinity of the crusade's formation...)

Xisor

I'll reiterate my first post in this thread regarding the Sisters.

Sisters Hospitaller would be part of the forces in significant numbers for post combat recovery of wounded troops. They could also function as medics at forward aid stations as support for all the troops. If any force has suffered severe losses of medics/doctors the Sisters would be deployed on the battlefield in support of other units like an IG platoon or Space Marine force.

Sisters Dialogous would be present to sift through information such as enemy texts etc... since that is their specialty. They would also be used as code breakers to break enemy codes protecting their communications regarding movements.

Sisters Famulous would be part of the campaign HQ force to provide for a diplomatic resolution for anything from getting personal armies of nobles from other planets to fight to getting nobles on the planet to be assaulted to switch sides and support the invasion of Imperial troops. Also these Sisters would be invaluable source of covert information due to the network they have established from working with the noble families.

Militant orders would be used to secure any churches, holy shrines, and other areas deemed important by the Ecclesiarchy. Depending upon the number of sites needed to be secured will determine how big of a force used. Since all of the worlds of the Imperium have a church the Sisters of Battle would be deployed to retake the site and no other units due to there could be relics held within a vault that the Ecclesiarchy cannot entrust to other units. For holy shrines, the size of the force used would be significantly larger as such holy places should be held in the hands of the Imperium and to prevent defiling. Grabbing an important site would be a big morale booster for the other forces involved, especially the Imperial Guard.

Arbites would be the last forces used and only in mopping up operations once the battle area is secured. They would provide security for inside of the areas retaken and to establish law and order.

For the militant orders, each preceptory would be subdivided into missions with each mission responsible for a single target. A mission would range in size from 0-1 HQ, 0-2 Troops, and 0-1 Elite or Heavy Support to 2-3 full detachments depending upon the nature of the target's importance. A holy shrine will have a greater number of troops deployed over a small church. Given the amount of churches etc... each preceptory would be roughly .5 million to 1 million troops with reserves of .75 million Sisters if the worst case scenario happens. Another role that would fall these Sisters is one of purgation under the command of the Inquisition once their primary objectives are secured.

For the Sisters Famulous there would be roughly 1,000-5,000 Sisters operating intelligence networks using their contacts with the noble households on each planet. Some noble families would be more favorable to them then others.

Sister Dialogous would be anywhere from 5-15 Sisters per HQ element involved in the Crusade to function as described above in my first post.

Sister Hospitallers would be fielded as their own separate preceptory in 3 times the numbers as the militant orders.

Belisarius
27-10-2006, 03:27
xisor, i never meant any disrespect in my first post, in fact I enjoyed it I just saw things a little different as in a 40-50 planet campaign. if I gave offense i humbly apologize.
Now to go into the batle strategy that has been laid down so far. I tend to agree with xisor about the riskiness of hitting the forgeworld first. This choice comes down more to style of command than anything else. IMO the forgeworld will be the most heavily guarded and have the largest enemy fleet elements in it. i could take it in one fell sweep and have everything go fine but more likely i will be badly bloodied in the attempt as the orbital defenses combined with fleet elements will allow m enemy to shape the battlefield. Granted if it works it is one stunning victory but personally the risk factor is too high. Personally with the invasion groups that you have outlined i would target the worlds that supply the forgeworld. Forgeworlds have to import food grab the main agriplaent that supplies them or a planet that gives them a ton of resources and force them to come to you on a battlefield (space wise at least) of your choosing.
I also agree on the difficulty of hunting ork pirate bands down. however a few fat juicey prizes turning into traps should keep orks off your backs a bit. Xisor stresses arbites and while important I think that their numbers would be secondary when taken into comparrison with preachers confessors and the like. I believe the imperium more likely to turn loyalists on the planet into arbites than in importing them. The reason being they kept faith in trying times already. And as it is a crusade I think the religous groups would have a ton of sway.
You mention 5 or 6 inquisitors taking part. If this is 40-50 planet sector of space i see that number as being as high as 100. Afterall the imperium would want to make sure no traitors lurked in their midst and want to uncover any word bearer or alpha legion plot. But bear in mind if this is a 10 planet campaign I think your numbers would be correct.
anyways just my two cents worth.:chrome:

just thought of something. personally i would have a nearly a million guardsmen with a transport and a single escort per group (not a million guardsmen in transport more like 2000 in each up to a million total) hitting isolated listening posts and mining outposts on asteriods or on scarcely habited worlds say a month ahead of the main invasion force and have them hitting on a broad front. (space marine raids or even a single strike cruiser with escorts drop podding a company down and then pulling out after the initial devestation) to blind the enemy and keep him off balance from knowing where the main thrusts will come and if he is foolish forcing him to thin himself in an effort to be strong everywhere making the main thrust easier to execute.:chrome:

Voronwe[MQ]
27-10-2006, 07:01
GW focusses too much on the Space Marines since they are the poster boys, but most of the work gets done by the IG I think.

Of course, logically, and analytically, 99.98% of all things considering external campaigns gets done by the Imperial Guard, and the other two definitely mainly by Adeptus Mechanicus forces.


1) Macharius did have a rather impressive force of Guardsmen, however. Quite something entirely from the kind of ragtag ad-hoc deployments brought together to defend Cadia and Armageddon...

2) No, not really. My plan first and foremost relies upon attaining orbital supremacy. I don't know about anyone elses plan (since it seems to be only mine going under the analytical microscope), but the resources I've proposed back up the style you go on to propose just as much as it would if I had 12 Billion Guardsmen at my disposal.

3) Indeed, but I don't see how the forces I propose decisively cannot do this any less than anyone elses...

4) I also don't see how you arrive at this statement. My proposal accounts for having 'not' enough resources to do everything such that you take the subsector in a matter of weeks. The question, of course, is what do you need to do that?

5) 12 Billion Guardsmen? 2 Billion all light infantry with a a significant proportion of heavier troops?

6) If my 2 Billion consist of 1.5 Billion disposed directly towards being deployed and becoming independent, then a force of 0.5 Billion tactical reserves (i.e. applied as you percieve my plan in a reactive dance of war) is almost competent. It'd be a long war, but there's no real cause for saying whether any battle would go in my favour as a decisive victory as opposed to falling on it's face...

Xisor

1) In 'logical/actual reality', Space Marines made but a little part of the Cadian and Armageddon, but now GW focusses too much upon them. Though this does not stop us from being realistic in our accounts of these major battles. My testament that 12.75 billion guardsmen/PDF was active during the third war for Armageddon still stands, naturally.

2) Hm, I think you was a bit rash in saying that you alone wer analytical. We sees it all from different perspectives, I suppose. Orbital supremacy are of majo importance, but it won't be directly decisive of who conquers the planet in the case of a guerilla-like war of attrition. Of course it limits your enemy, but let's view orbital bombardments more in the way that Wheel of Time handles magic warfare. But now something have heppaned to the screen, causing it to lie vertically, so I'll return later.

3) Not less than anyone else, just that you have to be very competent in using them. Though if you are able to, you can likely do far more than most. I too apologise Xisor, since I suppose that 'other one' was me. :D

4) A matter of weeks is a bit unrealistically short of time, though I will not complain about it. Still, you needs far more forces than so to it, and then especially Naval airforces, armoured forces and massive Naval support. To begin with. :D

5) Hm, depends on what worlds they are drawn from and what specialised regiments on those worlds they happen to be. I would say 2.5 billions light, 1 billion engineers and 0.8 billion tank/artillery crew.

6) I would do that too, or perhaps hold back 0.6 billions and drop 1.4 on the enemies' heads.

Xisor
27-10-2006, 11:58
You mention 5 or 6 inquisitors taking part. If this is 40-50 planet sector of space i see that number as being as high as 100. Afterall the imperium would want to make sure no traitors lurked in their midst and want to uncover any word bearer or alpha legion plot. But bear in mind if this is a 10 planet campaign I think your numbers would be correct.


Well, the Inquisition only handles really serious threats, and when it comes down to it: no-one orders any Inquisitor about. Not even other Inquisitors.

The purpose of the Adeptus Arbites is (additional to upholding the strictures of the Lex Imperials) to provide an armed and competent force as a last line of defence against insurrection and invasion. In this case, having a substantial (if not actually adequate) Arbites presence in the fleet would compensate in large for not having an Inquisitor for every cult, anomaly and oddity that arises.

Remember:EYHBTIAL!

Whilst I don't think the Arbites I'm proposing would really number much over 10-15,000 strict Arbitrators (ie 'Soldiering'/line of duty Arbites, not desk-jockeys and quill-hotshots) it is enough to form an initial and suitable presence on most worlds and Crusade forces. They would not, of course, be suitable for the subjugation of an Entire planet numbering billions...
(I'm currently a fan of the Arbitrator Calpurnia view of the Arbites)

Cheers folks, I agree largely with everything, so I'll just detail the bits I'd dispute/add to. :p


;1035891']I suppose. Orbital supremacy are of majo importance, but it won't be directly decisive of who conquers the planet in the case of a guerilla-like war of attrition. Of course it limits your enemy, but let's view orbital bombardments more in the way that Wheel of Time handles magic warfare. But now something have heppaned to the screen, causing it to lie vertically, so I'll return later.

This is the main problem, IMO. Whilst it's very true that it is major, and perhaps not decisive in itself, I would propose that "The crusade cannot conquer any of the worlds for any length of time without orbital supremacy". That's what I mean by crucial. Of course, we all recognise that just having Orbital Supremacy won't win us the Crusade, but the emphasis I'm trying to push is that it is largely impossible (ie 1 in a gazillion, and you only get one chance ;) ) to win anything significant in the planet-side wars without Orbital Supremacy.

Of course, to completely contradict myself, there is the interesting tactic of inserting light infantry, Marine, Storm Trooper, sabotage(etc) and Inquisitorial units onto a world through rapid insertion and then simply 'backing off' from the world entirely. Blockade, perhaps, or more seige style where you go after crucial supply routes (blocking resupply from Forgeworlds and mining worlds for instance[we can assume that Agri worlds are only important for a super-Civilised world and up[thus also Hive and Forge]) and simply not doing anything with the vast bulk of your Imperial Guard/Adeptus Mechanicus/Armoured Astartes/Chamber Militants in respect to actions groundside on a particular world.

In this way, it's entirely possible (though the likelyhood is, to me, completely unknown) to sabotage/compromise the vast bulk of the planets security and orbital/anti-orbit defences, and have the world 'ripened' for assaulting.

I suppose it's not really a contradiction, just an elaboration on what I'd assume is a core part of most plans to attain Orbital Supremacy! :rolleyes: /:p

Anyway, I think that's enough from me for now!

Xisor

lonepilgrim
27-10-2006, 17:28
Without wanting to restart an argument, I think a lot of the estimated numbers of Guardsmen et al has been overstated. The two main sources we can turn to are The Sabbat Worlds Crusade and The Taros Campaign book.

The Sabbat worlds are an entire sector and consist of over 100 systems. The crusade was entering 'an extremely well held enemy sector, where the foe was extensively provisioned and dug in.' Warmaster Slaydo 'commanded almost a billion Imperial Guardsmen, along with massive retinues of armour and artillery. Six Chapters of the Adeptus Astartes...along with Titan Legions...' Nowhere near the 10 million+ suggested.

In the same book the assault on Fornax Aleph (which was expected to have a large fleet and significant Hive cities) consists of seven infantry regiments, 2 armoured regiments and an Astartes Chapter.

Similarly, the Taros campaign is fought against a mineral rich desert world with a population of 12 million people (in league with the Tau). 21 regiments were requested, 10 were granted and only 8 actually fought. The Imperial forces were:

IG
3 Tallarn infantry Reg
2 Tallarn armoured reg
1 Elysian drop troops reg
1 Sarennian Assault Engineers reg
1 Cadian reg

Navy
4 fighter wings
2 bomber wings
1 tactical wing

Astartes
3 companies (1 battle barge, 1 gladius escort, 1 strike cruiser)

Adeptus Mechanicus
224 Enginseer teams
12 Ordnance teams

Titans
1 scout battlegroup

Departmento Munitorum
2 Labour corp
2 engineer corp
78 supply columns

Ministorum
6 Field hospice
19 interpreter teams

fleet
1 Overlord
1 Tyrant
1 dictator
1 lunar
2 dauntless

2 sword squadron
1 cobra squadron
1 firestorm squadron

4 armed transports
5 transports
3 heavy transports
1 heavy tanker
1 behemoth

Not a lot, really. Of course, GW typically uses low figures for planetary populations and conflicts and these could be just further examples, but at least they seem consistently low :)

Gen.Steiner
27-10-2006, 21:41
Without wanting to restart an argument, I think a lot of the estimated numbers of Guardsmen et al has been overstated. The two main sources we can turn to are The Sabbat Worlds Crusade and The Taros Campaign book

...GW typically uses low figures for planetary populations and conflicts and these could be just further examples, but at least they seem consistently low :)

Yes - and this is stupid.

Do you know that little thing called WWII? That was an attempt to conquer a world. Total casualties: 37 million civilians, 25 million soldiers (of which 10 million were Soviet).

25 million dead soldiers ... during an attempt to conquer a world.

Now, increase the lethality of the weapons and then try and invade that world. Arguing that you have under a billion men to conquer 100 worlds is blatantly absurd, and I have to say that I think that this part of GW's background is so nonsensical as to be easily ignored.

Elcampbello
27-10-2006, 22:27
On the subject of the inquisition:

An entire sub-sector has gone to hell and you don't think any Inquisitors are going to turn up? o be honest I'd be supprised if all the Inquisitors in the sector wern't all over this.

Aun'aart'al
27-10-2006, 22:29
On the subject of the inquisition:

An entire sub-sector has gone to hell and you don't think any Inquisitors are going to turn up? o be honest I'd be supprised if all the Inquisitors in the sector wern't all over this.

actually it has been mentioned that the Inquisition would be involved. A hundred Inquisitor count has been suggested, as well as specific Ordos from the Ordo Malleus, Ordo Hereticus and Ordo Xeno as well

(arent Malleus and Hereticus the same?)

Gen.Steiner
27-10-2006, 22:37
(arent Malleus and Hereticus the same?)

No. Ordo Malleus deal with Daemonic infestations.

The Ordo Hereticus deals with treason and heresy - psykers, mainly. Any Daemonic appearances would, I suspect, be handed over to the Malleus ASAP.

Aun'aart'al
27-10-2006, 22:39
ah yes, then Malleus would be the Grey Knights' territory, while Hereticus would be for the Witch Hunters/SoB, gotchya

Tastyfish
29-10-2006, 01:34
Bear in mind though, the IG are the best of the best of the best - the top few percent of a planet's special forces.

On top of this, most planets aren't like Earth but either Hives or incompletely terraformed, at the very least the majority arn't really self sufficient. Its more having a concentration of power in critical regions like space ports, environmental controls etc. A few regiments of very well trained special forces could probably take on a force many times their size - especially as the defender won't often know where the battlelines are going to be in many cases.

Belisarius
29-10-2006, 04:20
true enough tasty fish but the enemy will no doubt be aware of which areas are critical to him and in all liklihood have a rapid reaction force nearby. sure you can take it with an elite unit but can you hold? Or if the object is merely to smash how quick will the RRF respond limiting the time you need to carry out said mission. having said that I would agree wholeheartedly that starving a hive world of resources is the way to go.

Voronwe[MQ]
30-10-2006, 21:21
On the subject of the inquisition:

An entire sub-sector has gone to hell and you don't think any Inquisitors are going to turn up? o be honest I'd be supprised if all the Inquisitors in the sector wern't all over this.

* Sigh *

Why must one always think of the Imperium's acts as nobly justified etc, instead of seeing the rawer, realistic things in work which rarely allows things to become hells, since more powerful forces wants something else etc...

Belisarius
30-10-2006, 23:33
because this is looking at a crusade force from an Imperial point of view in which according to their plans and viewpoint things really have gone to hell in the sector.

Voronwe[MQ]
31-10-2006, 09:31
Really? And what if they have interests in it? Mining? Agricultural? Industrial? Technological? Warp-related? Strategic in military and/or commercial views?

Aun'aart'al
31-10-2006, 09:39
well the Imperium would be interested in retaking a sector/subsector for all of those reasons, really

Voronwe[MQ]
31-10-2006, 09:43
War starts for economic reasons. Do not lose focus on that. Whatever the Casus Belli or side-reasons, the economic reasons are always underlying, whatever you see on the surface.

Gen.Steiner
31-10-2006, 13:30
Bear in mind though, the IG are the best of the best of the best - the top few percent of a planet's special forces.

Wrong. Some regiments are, but the majority are bumpkins, hive workers, the dispossessed, and those unlucky enough to be caught up in the drag net.

If you can meet the tithe with your SpecOps, all well and good.

If you can't, then you draft the chumps. The Guard varies in quality - some regiments would make the French Foreign Legion look like Cub Scouts, others would make Cub Scouts look like the FFL...


]War starts for economic reasons.

True.

Voronwe[MQ]
31-10-2006, 15:19
Indeed; there is a hell of a diversity in the Guard.

t-tauri
31-10-2006, 16:35
;1044467']War starts for economic reasons.
Religion is always a good side issue. In 40k you've always got the fact that some races (Nids particularly) are just inimical to other races.
Wrong. Some regiments are, but the majority are bumpkins, hive workers, the dispossessed, and those unlucky enough to be caught up in the drag net.
Also some rulers will have vested interests in retaining their best troops whether to retain power, to posture or defend them from local enemies. Some imperial drafts will just be met by emptying the prisons and shipping out the unemployed.

Voronwe[MQ]
31-10-2006, 18:51
Correct, t-tauri; religion was one of the side-reasons I meant. That about other races is definitely true, too.

Exactly; many have notions against using their expensively trained troops elsewhere where they will have no use for them. Prisons, unemployed and those otherwise destined for the firing squad shipped offworld are very true.

Aun'aart'al
31-10-2006, 18:56
;1045429']religion was one of the side-reasons I meant..

just look at any Holy Wars, or indeed the word Crusade



Exactly; many have notions against using their expensively trained troops elsewhere where they will have no use for them. Prisons, unemployed and those otherwise destined for the firing squad shipped offworld are very true.

look at the Last Chancers squad, or more generally, Penal Legions

Voronwe[MQ]
31-10-2006, 19:09
Ah, the Crusades. One of the most strong examples of multitude economic backlying reasons coupled with a number of religious side-reason.

Belisarius
01-11-2006, 02:03
Don't rule out political power and prestige. The crusades were a great chance for that as well founding new kingdoms

Voronwe[MQ]
01-11-2006, 08:23
Some of the reasons why many younger nobility sons entered it, true. But don't forget the fact that on higher levels, one wanted to make something with all those young sons who would not inherit much at all and open more trade lanes and opportunities to the Middle East.

Aun'aart'al
01-11-2006, 22:11
Right. Getting back to the sort of Crusade this thread is refering to :rolleyes:

how many (even roughly) super-heavy tanks would be involved in a crusade to retake the subsector that I described (first page, near the very top)?

also, what sort of reinforcements would be available - remember, only available, not what they would get - to the crusade fleet?

EDIT: just thought of this, but what sort of defenses - orbital and other - would the crusade fleet have to consider were available to the forgeworld? as in, what sort of defenses would they have to beat before they would be able to claim the world for the Imperium again?

Gen.Steiner
01-11-2006, 22:23
how many (even roughly) super-heavy tanks would be involved in a crusade to retake the subsector that I described (first page, near the very top)?

Hundreds. You're looking at probably at least three in each armoured regiment, and possibly one or two dedicated Super Heavy Tank Regiments. Skitarii and other AdMech formations would be dripping with the things.

At a top end maximum, I would hope for a couple of thousand. At a low end minimum, I would demand a few hundred.


also, what sort of reinforcements would be available - remember, only available, not what they would get - to the crusade fleet?

Whatever they can get. Most likely to be nothing except the tithes of worlds within the usual 100 light-year recruitment radius, or the tithes taken from recaptured worlds. It's worth noting that in the 21st year of the Sabbat Crusade, the Crusading armies began to get troops from the newly reconquered worlds, and were at all times throughout the crusade supported by locally raised regiments, e.g. the Urdeshi, Tanith and Phantine.


EDIT: just thought of this, but what sort of defenses - orbital and other - would the crusade fleet have to consider were available to the forgeworld? as in, what sort of defenses would they have to beat before they would be able to claim the world for the Imperium again?

Lots? :) Orbital defence satellites, bunkers, titans, warp-beasts, spacecraft, ground-to-orbit defence batteries, forbidden weapons, experimental weapons, you name it. The AdMech themselves may only have the faintest idea of exactly what the Forgeworld has on it, depending on how secretive the worlds' Fabricator Generals were and how long the Forgeworld's been established...