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AngelofSorrow
24-10-2006, 04:51
One of the most devastating spells in the game is released by this Terror causing, Wizard spiting abomination.
how do you use yours?
how have you seen it used?
how do you avoid/destroy it?
how do you protect it?
What kind of Items do you give the priest who commands it?

For me personally I have never had to fight one. Although i use one quite regularly.
I've found over the 2 years of playing with it that most opponents will fear it over anything else in you list. which give you a great edge.
I usually deploy mine in the center of my battle line letting my opponent advance toward me and hopefull it will do its job.

I usually offer it no protection as in my experience it does a great job defending itself. If it casts any fast cav or flyers that are preparing a charge will hopefully be devastated before reaching the casket. Also it has the best warmachine crew you could ever ask for 2A S4 great weapons and killing blow take that Dwarven cannon crew:evilgrin:

The priest I have on it is never my hierophant and is always given the golden Ankrha.

Well thats all from me. how about you guys.

ardude
24-10-2006, 08:09
on a hill if there is any, block of tomb guards/skeletons in front if it will do :)
and the priest will have staff of reaving ( and if he's the hierophant coller of shapesh)
if there isn't a hill I mostly just put 2 scorpions next to it, the threat is enough :p
also placing a chariot unit next to it might work, blocks of skeletons won't as he needs line of sight.

Alathir
24-10-2006, 13:07
I verse TK alot... so thats where my knowledge and experiences come from.

I think it is never good idea to put a high liche on the casket, a liche will do fine. High Liches are wasted as they become severely limited and if they leave for any reason it instant crumbles.

Sure, the guards are nice... and better than almost all other war machine crew but they still have yet to hurt any of the people that attack it... plus they have to lineup so the attacks are just directed against the liche and then the other guards will just fizzle away.

I'm a firm believer that the true damage dealt by the casket is purely psychological... the amount of times I've seen players, myself included, kill themselves over whether to let that Tomb Prince charge or save the dice for the casket which could potentially be worse is devastating and works extremely well in the TK general's favour. Anything that lets your other priests and kings do more is great.

The main enemy of the casket is magic resistance, anything in the enemy with MR 2 that can see it essentially shutsdown the whole thing, which is annoying. Thats how I remove the threat of the casket, as a wood elf player I can just take a unicorn, throw it in sight of the thing and I'm set. Destroying it is never problem, its just getting to it is where the effort lies as any TK player worth the sand he walks on will do well to protect it. The liche on it will usually be carrying the Staff of Ravening as well which can remove the threat of light cavalry and skirmishers, even at strength 2.

StormCrow
24-10-2006, 13:17
how do you use yours?
I put it in the middle of my army (preferably on a hill) flanked by two big blocks of skellies
how have you seen it used?
see above
how do you avoid/destroy it?
Alathir has previously used glade riders, an alter kindred highborn, and treekin to destroy it
how do you protect it?
I usually give the liche on it the staff of ravening...it's usually enough to stop elves getting too close. That and surrounding it with skeletons
What kind of Items do you give the priest who commands it?
The three items i've used on it are the staff of ravening for extra protection, the collar of shapesh for survivability and the plaques to make sure the spell gets through at least a couple of times per game.

Alathir
24-10-2006, 13:20
Even with my Elven leadership... Stormcrow's casket in one turn single handedly turned the game his way... I was winning at the time but then the casket wiped out my 2 spellsingers and wardancer noble... which shut down my magic entirely ... so annoying.

Ophidian
24-10-2006, 13:34
Last time I faced the thing I was playing as Lizardmen - skirmishing skinks have no place to hide...

Managed to hold it off until turn 4, then - boom - half the army dissolves...

Von Wibble
24-10-2006, 20:15
I always include one in my TK army in 2500pt games.

Strengths - vs Ogres it really helps to stop 1 dice spell attempts.

War machines die all the time to it, as do knights. I have killed 6 Chosen Chaos Knights with it before (in addition to damaging several other units). Against Dark Elves, i have seen it kill 2 bolt throwers, and 2 sorceresses in one turn - though the latter could have been avoided by putting them in units...

However, where I really gain is that my opponent knows all this. So he almost always saves 3 dice to dispel it. As most armies tend to have 5-6 dispel dice and 2 scrolls, (roughly), thats a lot of incantations I get for free!

Priest on the casket gets a scroll and (depending upon opponent) Enkhil's Kenopi or another scroll. Never make him the Hierophant as that is the equivalent of painting a big target sign on the whole thing.

Deploy on a hill near to a large block of skeleton archers. They can protect the casket, and mean the priest's incantation is in range of something. Of course, other units may well also be near - that depends upon your army and your plan.

To deal with it - flyers/ fast cav are ideal. Deploy them facing away from the casket, and then it gets 1 shot at killing them. Obviously have backup units if the casket is that much of a threat...

Otherwise, I would just get into combat as fast as possible. That way you can't see it and can't be hurt.

The 1 time I lost my casket was to a cannon shot (a very lucky cannon shot as i am sure you are aware). The vps he gained from that shot won him the game. Grrrr

Question - the plaques surely don't affect the casting value of the casket? It casts spell seperately to the priest... (btw I hope I'm wrong there!)

Freak Ona Leash
24-10-2006, 20:17
Hm...well, the only tactics Freak could think of would be put it on a hill, protect it well and roll high numbers. Isnt that much more to it he thinks...

Tobias
24-10-2006, 20:19
@Alathir, about your unicorn, I might be wrong here, but does MR only work against spells directly used against the unit.

Inquisitor Maul
24-10-2006, 20:31
@Alathir, about your unicorn, I might be wrong here, but does MR only work against spells directly used against the unit.

IIRC, it's a spell that targets every unit it can see so a single dispel is enough and any unit that have MR and is targeted by it can add their dice to the pile.

Just my two cent

CauCaSus
24-10-2006, 21:22
Hmm, never thought about that before. Gives the Ring of Darkness a purpose in my Skaven army all of a sudden. Or another argument for fielding a Screaming Bell.

StormCrow
25-10-2006, 01:43
Question - the plaques surely don't affect the casting value of the casket? It casts spell seperately to the priest... (btw I hope I'm wrong there!)

Well the description for light of death says it's cast just like an incantation, and the description for the plaques says you can reroll the dice used for any incantation of the priest...so i just put 2 and 2 together and thats what i came up with. I have been wrong before but i dont think this breaks the rules.

Ponyking
25-10-2006, 08:27
I was thinking about the effectivness of the CoS yesterday and wanted to check how good it really is. Anyone done any calculations on it? I did against leadership 8 and I must say that I am impressed. In the near future I'll check out other leaderships if the urge strikes me but for now suffice it to say that the casket will do 1.55 wounds per unit looking at on average at LD8. Chances of getting a few wounds then is quite nice I'd think and, as we all know, the castket is a lot more usefull against many units and in larger games.
One thing that strikes me as nice about the casket is that unless they save their dice and dispell it(in which case you will have more normal magic getting through) they will have to hide some units from LoS to the casket. This should make it easier for you to set up flank charges when stuff is in LoS of the casket.
I gotta say though that I have never used the CoS nor do I play TK yet so my advice is purely theoretical as of now. I play my first TK game this sunday and I haven't decided wether or not to use the casket yet.

DeathlessDraich
25-10-2006, 09:35
1) MR:
Chronicles 2004; "Q: What happens if an enemy with MR is in LOS of a Casket...?
A: Where there is more than one unit with MR, only one unit can add their (MR) dice (to dispel), usually the unit with the highest MR"

I've used the Casket with a variety of experienced players.

My only addition to the many good contributions, is the Casket is nearly always destroyed by combat especially by single characters - Alter Nobles, Jaguar Warriors, skitter leapt assassin who sneak past battle lines.
I tend to move my priest away from the casket just before this happens

The comical thing for me is the Terror it causes in player facing it for the first time and not just his army.

A player experimenting with Zombie pirates, never played them again when the Casket easily knocked out half his army!

Von Wibble
25-10-2006, 17:57
Well the description for light of death says it's cast just like an incantation, and the description for the plaques says you can reroll the dice used for any incantation of the priest...so i just put 2 and 2 together and thats what i came up with. I have been wrong before but i dont think this breaks the rules.

Yeesss, but the Casket is a unit joined by the priest and therefore its incantation is not the priest's.

Or, to put it another way, a character with a swrod of might doesn't give the unit he is with +1S.

As I said last time, I could be wrong. I hope I am.;)

DeathlessDraich, your reply implies to me that if just 1 unit with MR is in range, the whole army effectively benefits from its bonus to the dispel roll. Am I correct in this? :eek:

If that is correct, suddenly every tomb king opponent is going to have a MR item in their army, and make sure it is in LOS. Best anti casket tactic yet - too good in fact. Brets and Khorne would practically ignore the thing. So I hope I've misunderstood you there.

CauCaSus
26-10-2006, 01:56
Well, if you've got A chance to dispel the spell and a unit with MR is targeted I guess you could add the MR dice to the mix. I'd be really happy about this since it gives my small, low Ld (I play Skaven) units a chance and it gives a certain magic item thats NEVER had a reason the be fielded a chance, but I can see how some armies (Khorne, Brett (apparently) has pretty much neutered a powerful-but-fragile item in the TK army.

Ponyking
26-10-2006, 18:50
neutered? come on, it's not that bad, almost no one would use MR items unless they are built in and lvl 1-2 brett sorc only gives 1 die, it's not the end of the world. Khorne could be hard but that goes for any army that pays for a good magic defence, khornes is just more dice and other armies rely on scrolls.
In general any army with 2 wizards and 4 scrolls, about equal to 8 DD for the first 2 turns, will be able to stop your key spells but some will go through if you have TK+TP+LP+LP+CoS(9PD, could add Staff of Ravening as well). The question is wether you are going to face that in every tournament game. I doubt it, and even if you did it wouldn't be too bad as against a scroll army you would have to hang in there and against you will no doubt only have to fight half his army if you are ok att utilising sacrificial units.

Von Wibble
26-10-2006, 20:15
That argument assumes tournament play. I play games where both players know who they're facing. Against TK the mr2 items available to a lot of armies would suddenly come out to play every time. Even mr 1 translates to effectively +1 dispel dice, for a lower cost. I agree neutered is a strong word, but there is certainly a severe effect in non tournament style games.

Btw a fair house rule on mr could be to allow the extra dice, but use different colour dice. If the initial dice dispel the casket all well and good. If the original dice plus the mr dice fail, the casket gets through as normal.

But if the spell would only have been dispelled by the mr (eg casting value 9, 2 dice plus mr 1 used, 2 dice score 7, mr scores 3), then the unit with mr is immune, but the rest of the army is affected as normal.

Ps the amulet of the purifying flame regularly makes it into my he army on a unit champion. Would that deduct 3 from the caskets roll? Nasty if combined with the banner of arcane protection on a unit (tk are undead so it does get used!) - effectively a 2 dice rolloff where the he player gets +3 and only needs to tie. Oh and +1 to dispel!

AllTheWayUlthwe
26-10-2006, 20:35
I do have a question about the Casket and when it is hit by a cannonball. If the path of the cannonball goes right through the Liche, that is behind the casket, does he get hit? I guess I need a lesson in the cannon rules for hitting a warmachine crew.

Any of you that can help a brother out?

As far as my casket, I love the fearfactor my opponents have. I have yet to make back a 1/4 of the cost of the casket back , as far as kills made by it. But the fact that I can get the majority of my incantations off due to my opponent holding dice back, then WHO CARES! The Casket has always been a surprise thing for me. I have never taken it and hinged my battle plan on whether it was going to kill the enemy or not. When it does go off, it is like a nice little surprise for me.

BTW, I really hope that the players we all face off against don't realize that the odds of killing things with the casket are really low. I might kill one or two models of a Elf or chaos army, a few more of a empire or lizard men and a few more than that of goblin and udead. The rub is that the armies that face off against the casket should do thier damnbness to stop my incantations rather than trying to stop a casket that may only really affect 1 or 2 units in his army. But, I hope they keep freaking out over it.

Ponyking
26-10-2006, 21:30
Well, I'll be testing the casket against wardancers this weekend, they are MR1 right? See how it goes. Something I was thinking about before was using a unit of light horsemen to block LoS for a unit with MR in order to get the spell of easier. this might be a better option than giving them free Dispel Dice. Light horsemen are Fast cav so it's no problem keeping them single file next to the casket and then moving them up 8" and free reforming to block the 1 units LoS.

StormCrow
26-10-2006, 21:52
I do have a question about the Casket and when it is hit by a cannonball. If the path of the cannonball goes right through the Liche, that is behind the casket, does he get hit? I guess I need a lesson in the cannon rules for hitting a warmachine crew.

Any of you that can help a brother out?


i will help a brother out!

it's just like any other warmachine, if the cannonball hits the casket and crew you have to randomise the hit. on a 5+ it hits the crew and then your liche is pasted. on a 4 or less it hits the casket and nothing happens.

Von Wibble
27-10-2006, 17:26
Well, I'll be testing the casket against wardancers this weekend, they are MR1 right? See how it goes. Something I was thinking about before was using a unit of light horsemen to block LoS for a unit with MR in order to get the spell of easier. this might be a better option than giving them free Dispel Dice. Light horsemen are Fast cav so it's no problem keeping them single file next to the casket and then moving them up 8" and free reforming to block the 1 units LoS.

Nice plan - as long as the casket isn't on a hill. All units can see and be seen by units on a hill, and wardancers get 360 degree sight.

DeathlessDraich
27-10-2006, 19:32
DeathlessDraich, your reply implies to me that if just 1 unit with MR is in range, the whole army effectively benefits from its bonus to the dispel roll. Am I correct in this? :eek:

If that is correct, suddenly every tomb king opponent is going to have a MR item in their army, and make sure it is in LOS. Best anti casket tactic yet - too good in fact. Brets and Khorne would practically ignore the thing. So I hope I've misunderstood you there.


Yes, that tactic is sound. If one or more of the units has MR and LOS to the Casket, then its MR can be added to the dispel dice used.
I think Storm Crow or someone mentioned this.

AngelofSorrow
27-10-2006, 19:42
Yes, that tactic is sound. If one or more of the units has MR and LOS to the Casket, then its MR can be added to the dispel dice used.
I think Storm Crow or someone mentioned this.

Only the highest MR can be added the others are wasted you do not accumulate several MR against the casket.

DeathlessDraich
27-10-2006, 19:44
i will help a brother out!

it's just like any other warmachine, if the cannonball hits the casket and crew you have to randomise the hit. on a 5+ it hits the crew and then your liche is pasted. on a 4 or less it hits the casket and nothing happens.

pg87 Cannons: ...in the case of of ... and war machines and their crew, in which case any model touched by the line drawn by the bouncing ball is hit"

Therefore if the cannon ball bounces through the liche priest he may be hit.

However
TK 33: "...treat the Casket as a warmachine with the following exceptions...Any hits from shooting .. Hits on the crew are randomised ...

Therefore the cannon ball hit must be randomised among 2 guards and the priest. This is equivalent to a 3+ Ward Save effectively so he has some protection.

Makaber
28-10-2006, 00:09
Dude, you need a tactica for the Casket? Just place it somewhere!

CauCaSus
28-10-2006, 01:17
But wardancers are immune to psychology and therefore immune to the Casket, am I right?

Alathir
28-10-2006, 01:56
Nah, it isnt a fear based thing like casper isnt suddenly out and about, its a whole bunch of tormented souls tearing through people... people dont get an armour save against it I believe. So yeah, Wardancers are vulnerable against it... however, their MR can help out, plus you can get lucky with their 6+ ward save.

I was the first to mention the MR tactic? Wow, I feel important.

CauCaSus
28-10-2006, 23:03
I thought it worked like the banshee's scream that also doesn't affect models immune to psychology...

Oh well, I won't argue, I have neither army books here with me :p

StormCrow
28-10-2006, 23:17
it's just a horrendous magic missle, not psychology based

English 2000
28-10-2006, 23:20
I does affect immune to psychology stuff. Says to in the TK book.

My tactics:

With my VC - summon zombies in front of the casket facing away from it.
High Elves - amulet of purifying flame combined with my natural +1 to dispell
Brets - Holy Icon (MR3),
Pretty much everyone else - use my d.scrolls until I can get some fast cav in front of it facing away (gotta love that free reform) or in the case of my beastmen, ambushing unit charges it.

Ponyking
29-10-2006, 07:34
I think this brings to the surface an interesting thing. As I like to play tournaments and play in a generally competetive environment I like my games to be all around fair in the sense that I do not make my armylist based on what my enemy will have/will be likely to have, i.e I do not tailor my armylist. I make my army based on my own strategy, with backups and failsafes for things I might not have thought of, and not based on how to counter the opponents strategy since that leaves me more open to feints and such.

This makes me feel that arguments against the casket that goes along the lines that "but my opponent will only bring loads of MR" are not applicable. If someone is afraid enough of the casket to bring countermeasures that are specifically targeted against to every game they are going to be lack in other areas.

Beacuse of this I'd like to hear tactics against opponents that are not tailored against the casket and tactics that these opponenst can use against the casket.

English 2000
29-10-2006, 15:02
I think this brings to the surface an interesting thing. As I like to play tournaments and play in a generally competetive environment I like my games to be all around fair in the sense that I do not make my armylist based on what my enemy will have/will be likely to have, i.e I do not tailor my armylist. I make my army based on my own strategy, with backups and failsafes for things I might not have thought of, and not based on how to counter the opponents strategy since that leaves me more open to feints and such.

This makes me feel that arguments against the casket that goes along the lines that "but my opponent will only bring loads of MR" are not applicable. If someone is afraid enough of the casket to bring countermeasures that are specifically targeted against to every game they are going to be lack in other areas.

Beacuse of this I'd like to hear tactics against opponents that are not tailored against the casket and tactics that these opponenst can use against the casket.

Well for starters, any of the things I mentioned above will still be useful against pretty much any army you end up facing.

Summoned Zombies, fast cav, Holy Icon, Ambushing Beastmen are all things that I regularly take anyway so I think you asked your question after I had already answered it :)

AngelofSorrow
29-10-2006, 19:11
Dude, you need a tactica for the Casket? Just place it somewhere!

Oh that sounds like a brilliant idea so you would just place it somewhere. Like where it can't be seen. Please if you are not going to contribute anything useful stay off my thread.

English 2000
30-10-2006, 02:50
AngelofSorrow, I just read your sig. That's one of the BEST sigs I've seen anywhere. I laughed my ass off!!

...oven mitts doctrine...

Morentez
31-10-2006, 11:08
3 words
In 500pts

Nuff said :cries: