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BaronDG
24-10-2006, 13:13
Just remembered where I got my notions of craft-worlds being rather small. Nowadays people think the populations number billions and tens of billions and I never felt comfortable with this.
I prefer to see the eldar as a small remnant, not only compared to what they used to be but also compared to what we, as modern day earthlings, think of as big.

Anyway, it's from the old harlequin fluff: ... every eldar on Saim-Hann came to the talaclu hall. Even the Ancestors in the Infinity Matrix watched through the craft-world's internal sensors.

That would hardly be possible with those kind of numbers, would it?

And I also know that this fluff is probably out-dated and changed...

Slaaneshi Slave
24-10-2006, 13:23
My master believes he has eaten so many Eldar souls that there can be no more than a few hundred thousand Eldar left on each Craftworld, maybe half a million at the top limit. He goes on to say that there will be exceptions to this, some with many more, some with a lot less. He says that is a hell of a lot though, when you consider each and every one of them is trained in the use of a shurikan catapult.

Hellebore
24-10-2006, 14:03
Just remembered where I got my notions of craft-worlds being rather small. Nowadays people think the populations number billions and tens of billions and I never felt comfortable with this.
I prefer to see the eldar as a small remnant, not only compared to what they used to be but also compared to what we, as modern day earthlings, think of as big.

Anyway, it's from the old harlequin fluff: ... every eldar on Saim-Hann came to the talaclu hall. Even the Ancestors in the Infinity Matrix watched through the craft-world's internal sensors.

That would hardly be possible with those kind of numbers, would it?

And I also know that this fluff is probably out-dated and changed...


Well, that fluff can also look ridiculous.

Think about it. How big is the largest modern stadium?

http://www.worldstadiums.com/stadium_menu/stadium_list/100000.shtml


Even if the eldar have better eyesight etc than a human, that 'hall' would still only be a bit bigger than the largest one today, at 250,000.

say for a second the eldar had a hall that had a capacity 2 or even 4 X that.

That is still only a 500,000-1,000,000 capacity.

There is NO WAY that that population could survive 10 THOUSAND years of warfare.

That population is just not sustainable for even a couple thousand, let alone TEN thousand.

Hellebore

Slaaneshi Slave
24-10-2006, 14:06
My master wishes to tell you that in his 10,000 years in this Universe he has never seen the Eldar go to war as you would recognise it. He says they attack surgically, annihilate the enemy with overwhelming firepower before they can respond, then flee the field before retribution can arrive.

Hellebore
24-10-2006, 14:17
My master wishes to tell you that in his 10,000 years in this Universe he has never seen the Eldar go to war as you would recognise it. He says they attack surgically, annihilate the enemy with overwhelming firepower before they can respond, then flee the field before retribution can arrive.

I'm glad to see that the eldar succeed in avoiding ANY casualties, and have done so for the last 10,000 years.

They've certainly done a better job than their tabletop counterparts.

I've depopulated several craftworlds during my games.

Hellebore

Frecus
24-10-2006, 14:17
Let's suppose there were, indeed but 500,000 eldar on a craftworld.

The way I see it, craftworlds are ghost towns. Small in comparison to a planet, but still big enough to easily hold 5 million eldar, ten times the current populace.

That combined with my belief that there are still a couple dozen of craftworlds left, leads to... maybe 25.000.000 craftworld eldar left. Not too bad I'd think... Considering there's probably the same amount of eldar pirates, and dark eldar, and maybe even exodites.

Still, compared to the billions upon billions of humans, that singlle billion looks a bit bleak...

To go back on the eldar before the fall, considering there was probably ten times the number of CW eldar, and those eldar being... maybe a tenth of all eldar... 100.000.000.000 eldar roughly.
Hmm... That makes the fall quite hard for those CW eldar left... Losing 99.25% of your people to chaos and death...


Anyway, that's my 2 cents on eldar populace.

Frecus
The glade wanderer
Madwarrior

Slaaneshi Slave
24-10-2006, 14:27
I'm glad to see that the eldar succeed in avoiding ANY casualties, and have done so for the last 10,000 years.

They've certainly done a better job than their tabletop counterparts.

I've depopulated several craftworlds during my games.

Hellebore

My master never said they take no casualties, but that they simply do not fight the way your corrupt Imperium does, and so take very few in comparison. He says that if they are caught in a corner they die very easily though.

InquisitorMatticus
24-10-2006, 14:36
Craftworlds, IMO would be as big as a smaller planet. I always thought the wierd looking thing in the sky on the cover of the 2nd ed codex was a craftworld. That looks pretty big to me. That doesnt nessasarly mean that eldar populate every inch of it. It just has the abillity to you know make very large spacecraft.

Slaaneshi Slave
24-10-2006, 14:38
My master wishes you to know that the Eldar have been in their steel balls for over 10,000 years, and their population has been in decline ever since then. He goes on the speculate that as much as 75% of most Craft Worlds would be empty.

IJW
24-10-2006, 15:00
My master never said they take no casualties, but that they simply do not fight the way your corrupt Imperium does, and so take very few in comparison. He says that if they are caught in a corner they die very easily though.
I don't think accusing Hellebore of being part of the Imperium is going to go down too well...

stompzilla
24-10-2006, 15:05
There are at least as many Eldar as there are people these days. 6 billion at the least.

However, in the 41st Millenium that's a drop in an ocean and declining all the time.

Slave, your master must have forgotten Haran or the Haranshemash (World of blood and tears) as it is now called. Oh, and Tallarn.

Chaos was drubbed both times though, so i can see why he/she/it wouldn't want to bring them up ;op

lapis_lazuli
24-10-2006, 16:20
I've depopulated several craftworlds during my games.

Casualties on the tabletop aren't necessarily deaded - they might be badly injured or simply knocked unconscious, and in any case later evacuated. The rulebook says as much - it's nice to see GW covering their arses against precisely this kind of debate! ;)

Hellebore
24-10-2006, 18:53
I don't think accusing Hellebore of being part of the Imperium is going to go down too well...

Well, I DO moonlight as a space wolf every now and again:o


I know that the 'deaths' on the table aren't necessarily 'real' ones, it is the only thing that consoles me when ever I have to 'bury' my 500th artist for the game:eyebrows:


I don't quite understand how a population tens of thousands strong could be viable.

That is the biggest problem with the concept of a dying race.

Also you get into relativism - dying compared to WHAT?


The imperium has a population in the 1000 trillions, dying compared to that is still 500 billion.

So when we establish just exactly what dying means, the minimum genetically viable population, and attrition rates for the last 10,000 years, we can make a more accurate estimate.


I once did some simple maths on the size of a craftworld.

I assumed that a single eldar would require 5X5X5 metres of space (VERY small).


500,000 eldar would thus requre 125 cubic metres of space X 500,000, excluding the biodomes, factories, passageways, shrines ad nauseum, and assumes the walls between each eldar's quarters have a thickness of 0.


100,000,000 eldar would require 12,500,000 cubic kms of space.

Which could be in all sorts of configurations: 900X400X31 km for instance.


Hellebore

manicmarine
24-10-2006, 22:53
there are more eldar than space marines... as for the numbers in a single world i would thing judging by the art work of them and bsg background that they contain millions of eldar. However some are alot smaller they are no exect figures that i know of

Reflex
25-10-2006, 00:45
I don't think accusing Hellebore of being part of the Imperium is going to go down too well...

ROFL!!!

well i think that Ulthwe must hale like 1 billion freken eldar, everytime they got to batlle, well you know what happens when you get masses of infantry with weak armour (Guard *cough*).. :p

after i searched high and low i came to the conclusion that there are about half a million to 2 million ealdar left on each craftworld.

but all this fluff is open to interpretation.

Kage2020
25-10-2006, 03:59
I prefer to see the eldar as a small remnant, not only compared to what they used to be but also compared to what we, as modern day earthlings, think of as big.
Fair enough. Intepretations vary, of course. It really depends on what lens you wish to see the Eldar through. Personally I vary from the incredibly small remnant to the "reasonable" remnant. It all depends on how much "dying race" twoddle I've had rammed down my throat by whatever BL novel that I'm reading at the time! ;)


Anyway, it's from the old harlequin fluff: ... every eldar on Saim-Hann came to the talaclu hall. Even the Ancestors in the Infinity Matrix watched through the craft-world's internal sensors.
And there are so many ways that such 'fluff' can be bypassed.


My master believes he has eaten so many Eldar souls that there can be no more than a few hundred thousand Eldar left on each Craftworld, maybe half a million at the top limit.
I disagree. While the number varies considerably for the above reasons, I would think it is entirely reasonable to have a population in the high hundreds of millions. After all, that is at least consistent with the image as not...


Even if the eldar have better eyesight etc than a human, that 'hall' would still only be a bit bigger than the largest one today, at 250,000.
To be fair, though, that is where this numbers game can get a bit silly.


but all this fluff is open to interpretation.

Oh yes. And that isn't even the half of it.

Kage

Lothlanathorian
25-10-2006, 06:21
I always pictured Craftworlds as being huge, like GIANT!!! But, due to a low birthrate, the Eldar have been dying slowly. So, it isn't that there aren't 3 or 4 billion on a Craftworld, it's that they don't breed enough.

Sekhmet
25-10-2006, 06:32
In the 2nd deathwatch book, they enter Ulthwe. And it's huge. It has a space dock inside of it, able to house capital ships... although they cheated by creating a webway-like structure inside ulthwe to save space.

Lothlanathorian
25-10-2006, 06:33
Craftworlds, IIRC, were built to house the population of entire planets, weren't they?

Slaaneshi Slave
25-10-2006, 07:48
I disagree. While the number varies considerably for the above reasons, I would think it is entirely reasonable to have a population in the high hundreds of millions. After all, that is at least consistent with the image as not...
Kage

My master suggests that if you wish to judge numbers by artwork, then there must be billions of Imperial Space Marines, since there is always a sea of them in artwork.


Craftworlds, IIRC, were built to house the population of entire planets, weren't they?

My master believes this to be incorrect. He shows a passage in Slaves to Darkness which states that Craftworlds housed the "Important" people and those who hadn't fallen to the lure of His brothers (Tzeentch, Nurgle, Khorne). He says the passage shows them leaving the planets of the Eldar before His glorious birth. This means they cannot be planet sized, or house a planets population. He says they are pretty damn large though, since they absorbed the smaller City Ships.

weltenspringer
25-10-2006, 09:51
My opinion is that there are enough Eldar left to survive for another 10x10k years.
This stuff about "dying race" is only fluff for Players who wants to have it like that.
There are so many Exodite Worlds, huge Craftworlds, Maiden Worlds, even Croneworlds and Dark Eldar.
Sure, compared to the Empire is it rather small, but not dying at all. Hey here in germany we have a populution of 80 Million. And what do the scientist say? They say that we are a "dying race". Yeah, sure. When will this happen? Do i still have time for diner before it happens?

From this point of view you can even say that mankind is a dying race.

Back to topic:
Craftworlds are huge, like little Planets, and they are growing. Why? Because they need space for living and everything else. So you mean the Bonesingers keep the whole Craftworld growing without needing the extra space?
Hard to believe.
So there must be some Population on a Craftworld, at least some Millions, otherwise it wouldn´t work.

Just my 2 cents...

P.S.: By the way....a Imperial Stardestroyer (Star Wars) needs 65k Crewmembers (according to fluff). Ok, wrong univers, but just to compare.

P.S.S.: Sorry again for wrong spelling and so forth....i guess i need to improve my english a little bit :/

stompzilla
25-10-2006, 10:37
Your english is much better than a lot of native speaker i know!

Voronwe[MQ]
25-10-2006, 11:53
indeed, this is very true.

Xisor
25-10-2006, 12:17
A quick note on Hellebore's comment on 'gentic viability' for the race.

A cunning concept, introduced in Xenology, is that Eldar Genetics have not changed in millions of years. They don't, it seems, naturally mutate. They're not a product of 'evolution' as we understand it.

I'm happy to believe that the Eldar are a 'viable race', theoretically, even with only a few hundred beings...perhaps only one male and one female.

Craftworld Size as I catch it, is this:

Many many kilometres long (hundreds?) and wide, populations well into the millions each. Multiple craftworlds, probably a couple of dozen 'largish' ones.

Iyanden, the Ghostworld Craftworld would be down to the hundreds of thousands. And it was one of the biggest...

Of course, I also think there'd be dozens of proto-craftworlds, vessels of magnitude only a fair few times (~x5)the size of largest Battleships, Hulks and larger Space Stations.

Even still, I'm quite happy with the idea that Craftworld Eldar constitute only around less than a billion individual Eldar.

Dark Eldar, on the other hand, I'm happy to see at roughly the same level(~1 Billion). I'm also, however, happy with the idea that there is more than one 'Dark City'. Dark 'Townships' to be accurate, permeate the Webway in places. So long as they don't interfere with the Webway itself, or the Harlequins, I imagine they're roughly left alone.

I'm happy to see the Dark Eldar population increasing...surrogation chambers.

Harlequins...???

Exodites a few thousand each world, with a good hundred odd (minimum) populated worlds.

A valuable perspective to take into account with the Eldar is that they are probably not constantly at war. Constantly taking losses, perhaps. Often a hell of alot compared to what they had when they left, pre-fall. But generally, for the whole race, they're always falling in numbers.

Xisor

Kage2020
25-10-2006, 16:15
My master suggests that if you wish to judge numbers by artwork, then there must be billions of Imperial Space Marines, since there is always a sea of them in artwork.
Perhaps your "master" might also realise that "image", in this case, refers to something more than the artwork?

Kage

Mr Zephy
26-10-2006, 11:23
So does anyone have a figure of how many cm one would be in a bgf game (i'm not thinking about blowing one up, honest...)

Kage2020
26-10-2006, 11:44
Isn't there an image of one that was modelled a while back?

Kage

foehammer888
26-10-2006, 13:40
Isn't there an image of one that was modelled a while back?

Kage There were rules in one of the old BFG magazines, for a "small" craftworld. The model was just the submarine from the TV show "seaquest" with a bunch of eldar bits glued on.

The "dying race" concept has more to do with the fact that the eldar are no longer the dominant race in the galaxy, and breed slowly, and less to do with how many of them there are. If you breed at a rate of 1 new eldar an hour, and 1.5 eldar die each hour, you are a dying race. There could be 10 of you or 10 trillion of you.

Eldar craftworlds were originally ships to house servivors of the fall, but have expanded and grown drastically in size since the fall. As many have said, its all a matter of perspective. If the Imperium of the 40k universe were suddenly reduced to only the planet of Terra, mankind would be a dying race, but their would still be 10 or 20 times as many humans as their are on the planet earth today.

Considering a craftworld must survive frequent wars, and much more of its surface/interior would be "habitable" than your average planet. Earth, for example, currently easily accomodates over 6 billion (some countries more and less populated than others) and only the non-water surface of the planet between certain latitudes is inhabited. Thus, it is completely feasible that a craftworld much smaller than a planet could comfortably hold billions of eldar.

Compared to their pre-fall galaxy spanning empire, that would still be a "dying race".

Foehammer

Slaaneshi Slave
26-10-2006, 13:45
Eldar craftworlds were originally ships to house servivors of the fall, but have expanded and grown drastically in size since the fall.

Foehammer

My master asks you to check your information before you post, the Craft Worlds were around long before the Fall was even seen coming.

The Judge
26-10-2006, 18:37
They were trading vessels, weren't they?

*searches for 2nd Edition codex*

malika
26-10-2006, 19:06
Trading vessels, but also the concept of many vessels merged together by the bonesinger came up here.

Hellebore
27-10-2006, 00:51
My master asks you to check your information before you post, the Craft Worlds were around long before the Fall was even seen coming.

There is a quote about them being built with great urgency just prior to the fall though, from the 2nd ed codex.

Whether either of these concepts is true, the fact is that craftworlds are huge.

I would put a small one at ~1000 km long, 700 km wide, and 400 km deep, producing an internal space of 28,000,000 cubic km, or 28,000,000,000 cubic metres.

Say we 1/2 that to accommodate engines, forest domes, industry etc, that gives us 14,000,000,000 cubic metres of space to store eldar.


If each eldar is given a living space of 5x5x5 metres, that is 125 cubic metres.

14,000,000,000/125= 112,000,000 eldar

Of course, we could have to remove some of the cubic space as walls and corridors etc, but even 1/2 the above for that gives 56,000,000 eldar.


Again, it all depends on how people perceive 'dying race', in what context they are applying it and whether a craftworld with low numbers could be viable with 10,000 years of intermittent conflict.

Also, the eldar race was virtually annihilated in the Fall, yes?

They had an Empire spanning the Galaxy, from the Eye of Terror down to the southern rim (where all the exodites live). How many billion eldar were there when the fall occurred?

Their empire had existed unmolested for millions of years, they could have had a population in the billions of trillions, because back then, they WEREN'T a dying race, and the whole 'elves have few kids' concept would have no meaning - they would have had huge populations.

Even if 99.9999% of that population was killed off, that would still leave a pretty big chunk.

Pre fall population: 1,000,000,000,000,000

99.9999% mortality
00.0001% survive

1,000,000,000,000,000X00.0001%=100,000,000,000

Depending on Pre-Fall numbers, and the actual death toll (which may have only been, 95%, making a HUGE difference), you could end up with hundreds of billions of eldar alive today.

I actually think there are more eldar alive at the moment then there are tau, simply because the tau have only been expanding for a couple thousand years, and haven't had the time to breed to huge numbers.

Hellebore

downundercadet07
27-10-2006, 01:36
I always view the "dying race" bit in a less literal light. Eldar are constantly declining. First they lost their immortality, then they lost their ability to reincarnate, then they lost their empire and most of their population, then the greatest surviving concentration of them was nearly eliminated, then they lost their most powerful seer... etc. etc. etc. For the eldar, their can be no victory, since there can be no victory without sacrifice. Or something.

Kage2020
27-10-2006, 03:29
My master asks you to check your information before you post, the Craft Worlds were around long before the Fall was even seen coming.
While the whole method posting is quite amusing - and normally quite on character - perhaps the "method" should be dropped for the purposes of politeness?

<shakes pom-poms>

Go Hellebore!

</shakes pom-poms>

(There is, after all, only so far that one can go! :D)

Kage

Hellebore
27-10-2006, 14:07
While the whole method posting is quite amusing - and normally quite on character - perhaps the "method" should be dropped for the purposes of politeness?

<shakes pom-poms>

Go Hellebore!

</shakes pom-poms>

(There is, after all, only so far that one can go! :D)

Kage


I'm getting an image of Indiana Jones with pom poms (to use an archaeological cliche - you could envisage me as Alan Grant from Jurassic Park too:rolleyes: ).

I too like the eldar.

I'm just not an eldarphile(TM) like you Kage:D

Would you believe that my favourite Fantasy race is the Dwarfs?

Hellebore

heretics bane
27-10-2006, 14:50
well it is stated that many eldar died and greatly reduced there popultion, ok so theres billions of eldar and a good chunk die so that would leave about 6 billion left(its seen as small to the 40k universe), and hellebore dwarfs rock!!

cav da man
28-10-2006, 22:55
whenever somebody says the word craftworld i think of the death star.
Anyway, thats more or less how i see them as big floating balls of stuff.
Ok lets move onto my own personal interpretation of *dying race*, basicly the eldar cant have a population as small as the word dying suggests, it would make them not a threat just because they cant kill enough people fast enough. I estimate their population at a fraction of the imperium but still a couple hundred billion or more. Craftworld populations that are not in war begin to go up, the dying race part comes in when casualties happen and their reproduction cant churn out enough bebez so there is a net loss. Sometimes they lose alot sometimes they dont, the ones that lose alot go to sulk in the corner and then marry their cousins until the population is at a good enough level again.
Back to the death star idea, maybe some craftworlds go boom. Lots of eldar in one place make such a pretty target :) and then everybody gets to enjoy the fireworks....

Inq. Veltane
28-10-2006, 22:59
I've always thought that Craftworlds should number their population in the 100s of millions but a quote in the new Codex makes me wonder if this should be reconsidered. A craftworld is described as "A living being with a hundred thousand minds". That would probably support a 'small craftworld' hypothesis and give a total Eldar population of just ten million or so. That really would be a dying race.

Overlord Krycis
28-10-2006, 23:24
could be that those are the minds of the Eldar in the Infinity Circuit....
But I see your point.

Inq. Veltane
29-10-2006, 00:03
I'd expect there to be more eldar in the Infinity Circuit than alive though so by that reasoning the craftworld would be even smaller. I still think a hundred thousand is too small really though.

cav da man
29-10-2006, 08:32
it does seem quite small but then again, if the populations were small but there were a large number of the worlds themselves that might equal it out. That and being seperated from each other might add to the dying effect people seem to want

Inq. Veltane
29-10-2006, 09:36
I'm pretty sure though its been stated that there are between about 70 and a hundred craftworlds. That leaves the entire eldar population being less than somewhere like (modern) England. Of course it would explain why the eldar only strike rarely and in dire cirucmstances and why they often are forced to mobilise civilians. A swift strike at a strategic point, discerned by the Seers, rather than a protracted war does suit the eldar and explains why there are few 'grand wars' in the Eldar background. Even those are spoken of taking the focus of the entire Craftworld and being a matter of life and death.

There would probably still be as many Aspect Warriors as there are Space Marines (the less eldar the higher the percentage who are, by necessity, on the Path of the Warrior) but still...its a very different picture of the eldar to that which I used to hold.

Iracundus
29-10-2006, 11:23
GW doesn't use very good numbers in its background particularly when it comes to population. For example, I believe the "apocalyptic" 3rd war of the planet Armageddon involved less troops than World War 2. GW has a habit of using of using ten thousand or perhaps now hundred thousand when what they really want to communicate is an atmosphere of "myriads" (ie lots). I'd use that quote from the Codex as less of a true literal reading.

It should be apparent that from big battles like Iyanden vs Kraken that craftworlds have to number sizeable populations. Eldar aren't supposed to be that superhuman that a tiny population can stave off one of the two main branches of a Hive fleet. Compared to the trillions upon trillions of teeming humanity or orks, a few billions is indeed a dying race.

Kage2020
29-10-2006, 12:26
Of course, when it comes to the War in Heaven timeline they were definitely not afraid of using big numbers! :D Again, it comes down to intepretation. For example, a fairly developed craftworld Eldar colony has, for me, 900,000. Of course, that's subject to continual change since, well, it varies as a function of my overall image of the Eldar's position in the 40k universe.

And that last is where we get to the crunch. I can perfectly accept a monumentally small (ha!) population for the Eldar as long as you move further and further away from the wargame representation. That is, they essentially use the same weapons, principles and conventions of military science as all the other races, there is no real technological discprenacy, etc. Oh yes, and the wonderful idea that Guardians go into battle wearing, if I may use a common analogy on the various boards, paper armour. For a race that has purportedly dwindling numbres for one of numerous cited reasons (casualties in war, just plain 'ole mortality rate over birth rate, no new souls or whatever) they seem happy enough to send in their civilians in something only marginally more advanced than a Flak vest.

In short? Wargame Eldar? Biiiig numbers for population!

'Fluff' Eldar? Smaller numbers for population!

Kage

Inq. Veltane
29-10-2006, 12:34
Isn't that exactly the same as for Space Marines, Sisters of Battle, Grey Knights and so on though Kage? There are only maybe 20,000 Sisters in the entire Imperium and yet on our tables they die in vast numbers and carry pretty 'standard' weapons and equipment. Marines die to the vast number of Plasma weapons out there and so on.

99% of battles should be against poorly equiped GEQs, it is only because we play 'rare' battles every week that we have a distorted perspective. The D6 system also forces the differences between technology levels to be obscured. A Guardian's armour is really far superior to that of a Guardsman but looks exactly the same. Advantages like less weight and greater mobility are really downplayed on the tabletop but really ten Guardians should be more than a match for twenty guardsmen... If you took it to Inquisitor scale they would be.

Kage2020
29-10-2006, 12:53
Isn't that exactly the same as for Space Marines, Sisters of Battle, Grey Knights and so on though Kage? There are only maybe 20,000 Sisters in the entire Imperium and yet on our tables they die in vast numbers and carry pretty 'standard' weapons and equipment. Marines die to the vast number of Plasma weapons out there and so on.
Not the same thing that I was referring to, since one can drag out that quote about how difficult it is to bring Eldar to battle. I'm also aware of the granularity of the system and how the abstraction can result from multiple justifications. That still doesn't really cut it, though. Broadly speaking the Eldar are "balanced" with the other armies because of "Wargame Balance", the idea that it wouldn't really be fair to represent the supposed technological supremacy that they have. This feeds back into the army lists.

One might consider Wraithguard as an example. The Eldar are are a "dying race", yet they have the ability to put souls into artificial fighting machines. Thus, there is little reason that they could not field an army of the beggers (given how relatively durable the Waystones are). So the fix? Give it a funerary aspect (it's practically necromancy!) and add in the Wraithsight fudge and, whammo, you're back to the Theme of the Eldar: an advanced, dying race. Bingo.

Wargame Balance and Theme. Ultimately these rely upon the justifications that result from the wargame, which I don't monkey around with. Indeed, my own bias tends to rank the wargame as behind artwork in terms of good 'fluff' information. That's my own bias, and everyone has a different personal ranking system, which is all fine.


If you took it to Inquisitor scale they would be.
LOL. Given the Inquisitor system? I'm not too sure about that! ;)

Kage

Shallowain
29-10-2006, 13:49
I've always thought that Craftworlds should number their population in the 100s of millions but a quote in the new Codex makes me wonder if this should be reconsidered. A craftworld is described as "A living being with a hundred thousand minds". That would probably support a 'small craftworld' hypothesis and give a total Eldar population of just ten million or so. That really would be a dying race.

This "100k minds" thing might refer to the farseer and warlocks guiding the craftworld. I consider them to be at roughly 1% of the population of an entire craftworld, so it would sum up to be populated by about 10 Million Eldar on average

Kage2020
29-10-2006, 14:03
Hmmn... A good point, although I would imagine that they have less Farseers than "active military" (i.e. Aspect Warriors). If you take a look at modern England as an example of this, only around 0.3% of the population are in active military service (i.e. <200,000 with a population of around 64,000,000).

(And, for the old soap box, I would personally not take the stance that Seers are the rulers, or at least singular government, of the Craftworld. But there we go.)

Kage

Inq. Veltane
29-10-2006, 15:35
Warlocks certainly aren't 'rulers' of the Craftworld in any way. The idea of a hundred thousand Farseers is, frankly, rediculous (the Path of the Seer is the hardest and only a few become trapped on it. I'd say that well under one in ten thousand Eldar are Farseers... That would require a total population of billion. Which I guess some argue for but I do think is excessive. I still find the idea of a world of maybe 25 million the most plausible but that really requires ignoring the quote altogether, simply taking 'a hundred thousand' to mean 'a lot'. Would a seasoned Inquisitor really be that imprecise though?

Shallowain
29-10-2006, 15:38
You misinterpreted something. there would be not 100k Farseers, but farseers AND Warlocks, with about 1 in 1000, mybe 2000 being a farseer. Warlocks are definitely NOT stuck on the path of the seer. If you compare them to aspect warriors the Warlocks are the regulars and the farseers are the "exarchs".

Inq. Veltane
29-10-2006, 16:14
But Warlocks do not guide the Craftworld at all. They have absolutely no leadership function which is why it can't be 'Warlocks and Farseers' - there is no reason to include Warlocks. Bonesingers are closer to being part of the 'mind of the craftworld' than Warlocks do.

max the dog
29-10-2006, 17:11
If you take a look at modern England as an example of this, only around 0.3% of the population are in active military service (i.e. <200,000 with a population of around 64,000,000).


Kage
Take that to another level. In most 20th century militaries only 1 out of every 9 service members is actually a front line solgier who goes into combat. The other 92% just support the grunt in the trenches. Using those stats it would still give each "small" craftworld about as much front line combat troops as there are in 10 Space Marine chapters. If there are 100 craftworlds there are about as many front line Eldar combat troops as there are Space Marines.
Even for a dying race that's been 99.999999999% wiped out from it's maximum numbers that's still a potent force if used very carefully.
The Eldar armies may not be able to go out on any vast campaigns like the IG, Orks, Nids, etc... but they can at least survive a good defensive fight on their own terms.

Kage2020
29-10-2006, 18:11
Warlocks certainly aren't 'rulers' of the Craftworld in any way. The idea of a hundred thousand Farseers is, frankly, rediculous (the Path of the Seer is the hardest and only a few become trapped on it.
Agreed with regards to the Warlocks, though it is perhaps a mistake - or an over-exaggeration, perhaps - to suggest that the Path of the Seer is the "hardest". It is definitely the one that many, if not most, Eldar feel that they cannot walk until they have walked many other Paths and Ways. As such, the rule is that the Path of the Seer tends to be walked at the later stages of the life of an Eldar.

Of course, in exceptional circumstances it might be that an Eldar is "destined" to be a Seer, or is so strongly drawn to that Path, that it is the first that they walk. One might consider Auric Stormcloud from Farseer an example of this exceptional circumstance.

With that said the rule, or the average situation, does present one interesting point at which one might argue that the Eldar Seers are "leaders". That is, they are on average the eldest and the Eldar might offer up roles of authority to: (1) those that are willing to take them on; and (2) those that have the wide range of experience to draw upon.


I'd say that well under one in ten thousand Eldar are Farseers...
Personally I don't have a real basis to draw that on, since ultimately as with all these kind of questions it depends on just how many Eldar you see as existing.


...but that really requires ignoring the quote altogether, simply taking 'a hundred thousand' to mean 'a lot'.
What about another Eldar quote that talks about the Eldar "singing songs of lament" since before humanity "crawled out of the oceans", with people taking that to mean that the Fall of the Eldar was actually ten million years ago rather than ten millennia?


Would a seasoned Inquisitor really be that imprecise though?
Yes, I would imagine so. The 'fluff' is kind of created that way. :D


You misinterpreted something. there would be not 100k Farseers, but farseers AND Warlocks, with about 1 in 1000, mybe 2000 being a farseer.
Or, going with that direction of argument, how about it refers to Seers and not just two small sections of the Path of the Seer?


Bonesingers are closer to being part of the 'mind of the craftworld' than Warlocks do.
Not really. Bonesingers might shape the skeletal framework of the craftworld, but they are as much a part of the Path of the Seer as the Warlock. Just what you think that means in terms of leadership is left to your own interpretation.


In most 20th century militaries only 1 out of every 9 service members is actually a front line solgier who goes into combat.
Which is why I have the premise of "Houses"; rotating social constructs that definite "activity" for the Guardians. Darned good point, though, and I didn't know the figure.


The other 92% just support the grunt in the trenches. Using those stats it would still give each "small" craftworld about as much front line combat troops as there are in 10 Space Marine chapters.
Again, that depends on the numbers of the total population of a Craftworld that you believe in.

Kage

Hellebore
30-10-2006, 01:13
Except our ancestors 'crawled' from the seas over 350 million years ago - unless you subscribe to the aquatic ape theory ;)

Not even the 60 million years of the Old One theory copes with that.

Hellebore

Kage2020
30-10-2006, 02:42
Bugger. I was just thinking about hominid development, to be fair, and the fact that most people try and fit that into the War in Heaven schema. It's amazing what you'll accidentally post when you're multi-tasking. :D

Kage

pantera
30-10-2006, 02:53
Man, this thread has taken quite the interesting turn. As far as my knowledge of fluff goes, warlocks are in no way leaders, not in the craftworld at least. The field of battle is a different matter, and I dont really see them as leaders there either... more as a boost for a squad, or necessary support. Warlocks are warriors, they are former aspect warriors who have since turned to the path of the witch (in a nutshell). Although they aren't cc monsters, they still bring their former experiences to a new level. Farseers are more akin to exarchs, as they essentially are warlocks who are trapped in the path of the seer, and whos powers of divination have brought them to an even higher level. Then there are bonesingers, and Id assume there are seers that follow medicine and sundry other paths.

But this bring us back to the point of who actually leads craftworlds? I can't see in being solely farseers, as they'd all view different paths for the future. Biel-Tan is governed by exarchs. But what kind of council or government leads most craftworlds? Farseers, autarchs and exarchs? Some other form of hiarchy that has yet to be touched on? Now what this has to do with craftworld size, I dont know, but this is some interesting s@#t.

Kage2020
30-10-2006, 11:26
Well, the whole "leadership" issue is a traditional wrangle, but as one can see it is tied up with numerous facets of Eldar culture.

Kage

cav da man
30-10-2006, 19:13
why dont we focus on the actual sizes of a craftworld, if they did in fact have only 500,000 eldar then it would be smaller than many cities. It really would be based around their way of life, if an eldar didnt need so much space then they could maybe fit several billion on a small planet sized craftworld. Then again if they need their personal space then you wouldnt fit many and the craftworlds would be smaller anyway with less eldar to do jobs and to support.Maybe they started out smaller and were added to by people who arrived.

Kage2020
30-10-2006, 22:30
why dont we focus on the actual sizes of a craftworld, if they did in fact have only 500,000 eldar then it would be smaller than many cities.
Not necessarily. The size of the craftworld is linked to the population of said craftworld and the population density of the same. And that comes down to preference and interpretation, once more. And, therefore, the arrangement of living space, etc. My personal opinion is that population density is remarkably low...

Kage

Rockerfella
31-10-2006, 10:52
Hi. This is my first time posting on this forum (or any for that matter) so go easy on me.. Please? :)

Surely the premise that a craftworlds physical size is directly proportionate to its poulation size isn't entirely true? Look at Iyandan. I know this example could be argued as an exeption to the rule, but I thought i'd just throw this one in and see if anything else came out.

Craftwords after all have been classed as 'living' entities in several fluff entries in the past. We can infer through fluff, literature and general common sense that these vast mobile 'moons' are simply uber HUGE!!. Unfortunately, being rather new to this whole forum thing, i cant remember or prove to you guys where i actually saw this piece of literature. But i remember reading a piece decribing craftwords as 'dwarfing any Imperial Ship, space station or orbital city by many many times'.

Another interesting question for me is, 'just how much firepower could a Craftworld bring to bear if need be?' For a craftworld to take on and defeat (yeah, i know, JUST) one arm of a hive fleet takes sum whollop? Thoughts on this?

Anyways! Cheers!!!

Kage2020
31-10-2006, 18:37
Surely the premise that a craftworlds physical size is directly proportionate to its poulation size isn't entirely true?
Of course it is not, though that isn't directly suggested in the above replies. Rather, there are mediating factors that determine any function that relates size to population. Hence the mention of population density, i.e. the physical size of a craftworld is proportional to the population, with the population density acting as a variable.


Craftwords after all have been classed as 'living' entities in several fluff entries in the past.
Indeed. However, assignation of 'life' to something that might not traditionally be thought of as "alive" in, say, the sense of humans, eldar, fauna or whatever, can be problematic. Consider, for example, fire.

That's not to say what you're saying is wrong, just that it should be tempered with the realisation that analogies are often drawn between a craftworld, wraithbone core as the skeleton, Bonesingers as - erm - lymph nodes (! ;)), but they are not alive in the biological organism sense.

Well, kinda. ;)


But i remember reading a piece decribing craftwords as 'dwarfing any Imperial Ship, space station or orbital city by many many times'.
Don't worry about that. Normally someone will pop up with the bit of 'fluff' that you're after within a few posts or so. In this case, I don't think that it is necessary. The size of the craftworlds is generally accepted to be "very large"!


Another interesting question for me is, 'just how much firepower could a Craftworld bring to bear if need be?' For a craftworld to take on and defeat (yeah, i know, JUST) one arm of a hive fleet takes sum whollop? Thoughts on this?
A lot. And don't forget that you're going to have it split between two types: physical damage, i.e. weapons science, and their psychic abilities. Imagine, for example, the Eldar "teleporting" a vortex torpedo into the heart of a ship. Or creating a local stasis field of reasonable size in front of a ship and see as the ship tears itself to pieces as it rams it... Etc.

The possibilities are quite substantial, especially if the Eldar are capable of pooling their total psychic energy and singularly focus it. Of course, this is not something that BFG would like to get into! :D

Kage

Rockerfella
31-10-2006, 22:06
A lot. And don't forget that you're going to have it split between two types: physical damage, i.e. weapons science, and their psychic abilities. Imagine, for example, the Eldar "teleporting" a vortex torpedo into the heart of a ship. Or creating a local stasis field of reasonable size in front of a ship and see as the ship tears itself to pieces as it rams it... Etc.

The possibilities are quite substantial, especially if the Eldar are capable of pooling their total psychic energy and singularly focus it. Of course, this is not something that BFG would like to get into! :D

Kage

Wow, thats amazing. I never really considered that the Eldar would use such tactics. But, having reflected upon their 'vast technological supremacy' then this type of warfare seems utterly plausible. What you said here makes me think of the quote about the stars living and dying by the very Will of the Eldar. I imagine they would be a very very tricky obstacle for ANY other race to deal with in those terms.

Aside from gaming reasons, this type of warfare appplied by the Eldar could explain why although 'relativley' few in number, no one has yet either attempted, or succeded in eliminating the Eldar threat for good. Can i ask your opinions on this? I'm assuming on the galactic scale, they must still pose a substantial threat to Imperial interests, and the interests of other races too?

Kage2020
01-11-2006, 11:24
Thus the problems and inspirations of reading through GURPS Psionics, to point out that the inspiration derived from RPG sourcebooks and sci-fi/fantasy literature. :D It does, however, tend to give them a dimension that is not normally covered by the wargame (either land-based or BFG), which is more directly focussed on military technology... ;)

Kage

Rockerfella
01-11-2006, 11:52
I guess its hard to imagine how powerful the craftworlds really are. Its interesting to me that there is so little in terms of craftworld artwork. I've only ever seen one piece of craftworld art that depicts the craftoworld in its entirety. I'm not even sure if this was official GW art. It wasn't really that impressive either. Sort of a ball of weirdness with sails.

I've always imagined craftworlds to be fatter in the middle, and taper out at the front and the back, with huge spires, towers, domes.. a smooth-ish underbelly. Looking at it from the front i've always imagined them to be much wider that a view of them from the sides woudl initially suggest. If i could competently draw this, i would. ;o)

Dear me... i'm rambling utter nonsesne... again.

Voronwe[MQ]
01-11-2006, 12:04
Your description makes sense.

Hellebore
01-11-2006, 12:16
I've always disliked the GW interpretation of a craftworld's appearance - a really big spaceship is so boring. ;)

I would like to see something totally wierd. How? Well for a start, the gravitic technology the eldar possess would allow an almost Escher construction to their craftworld, rather than just a single plane, the craftworld could be dozens, all controlled by their own gravity field.

I don't see why having multistory domes is necessary, when you can have people living at completely different geometries to each other.

I can't find a picture, but the planet Quintessa from Transformers: The Movie has a vague appearance to what I am thinking of as it consists of lots of metal rings like giant ribbons wrapping around oneanother and merging into each other.

Hellebore

Iracundus
01-11-2006, 12:21
Only 2 of the major Craftworlds have ever been depicted. Iyanden in its entirety in the old Doom of the Eldar boardgame, and a sketch by Jes Goodwin of Biel-tan which is the one with the sails. In the new Codex there is also a partial picture of a section of Biel-Tan in close up detail.

The Craftworlds all seem to favor lots of towers and dome bulges/blisters. They appear to be individualized custom designs, either by original intent or as a result of gradual accretion and growth over the centuries. From the depictions and artwork in the Codex they are also rather densely urbanized with forests of spires and towers. With such construction density and the fact each Craftworld maintains fleets, armies, docks, etc... I'd keep their population estimates in the millions or billions.

Rockerfella
01-11-2006, 12:21
Wow, it did? hahahah! And i'm NEW to this too!!! *calms down*

Ever seen the introduction to the film 'Spaceballs'? In this scene, spaceball 1 ( a massive, and i mean MASSIVE) ship starts to glide slowly past the camera. I always kinda picture a craftworld in this sense.. a never ending mass of spires, towers and domes, with twinkling lights that glow all over its surface. I'm sure theres a small description of a craftworl in some of the fluff in the Necron Codex.

There's a Farseer type doing his thing.. the towers are described as 'sleek' if memory serves.

Iracundus
01-11-2006, 12:22
That's a description of Alaitoc but there's no picture of it.

Rockerfella
01-11-2006, 12:24
Only 2 of the major Craftworlds have ever been depicted. Iyanden in its entirety in the old Doom of the Eldar boardgame, and a sketch by Jes Goodwin of Biel-tan which is the one with the sails. In the new Codex there is also a partial picture of a section of Biel-Tan in close up detail.



Would love to see these.

Doom of the Eldar boardgame? Never heard of that! *shakes head*

The pic i've seen is of a roundish construction, with rather incongrous sails that sit at the front. Could this be Jess Goodwins work?

Cheers for the info! :)

Rockerfella
01-11-2006, 12:25
That's a description of Alaitoc but there's no picture of it.

Ahhhhh, there you go. Thats right. Thanks for the refresh.

Iracundus
01-11-2006, 12:34
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/13506

You can get the general gist of the shape of Iyanden even if you can't see the details due to all the pieces on the board. The swirling thing is the main Webway gate at the rear of the Craftworld. The front is the Spear of Light fortress at the upper left.

Rockerfella
01-11-2006, 12:46
hahaha!! Brilliant!!!

Thats superb! So.. its froma 'birds eye view' of sorts. DO you have this game?

The spear of light fortress... i wonder what significance this has to teh craftworld as a whole? Well, its fair to say its large. Are those 'domes' forests and woodland areas it seems?

Kage2020
01-11-2006, 15:06
I guess its hard to imagine how powerful the craftworlds really are.
Intimidating perhaps, but not hard to imagine.


Sort of a ball of weirdness with sails.
You might be talking about Goodwin's original Biel-Tan image from WD127 days. I've never been fond of the depictions of Craftworlds, though perhaps the best I've seen - even though I still don't like the appearance of the craftworld - was done by Magelord over on 40kOnline. You can also see examples of it in the Artwork forum of the Anargo Sector Project Forums (http://forums.anargo-sector.net).


I've always imagined craftworlds to be fatter in the middle, and taper out at the front and the back, with huge spires, towers, domes.. a smooth-ish underbelly.
I've never been fond of the whole spire-thing either, i.e. the spindizzy-esque approach of a "flying city". For me, it would be more organic, and more akin to the Edenist habitats from Hamilton's "Confederation" of the Night's Drawn trilogy (etc.).


Well for a start, the gravitic technology the eldar possess would allow an almost Escher construction to their craftworld, rather than just a single plane, the craftworld could be dozens, all controlled by their own gravity field.
Another point that I would agree with and, at the moment, utilise. That is, I perceive a honeycomb structure to craftworlds, with each three-dimensional hexagon having its own (fairly) independent life support system, gravitational fields, etc. Ultimately while they are designed to operate independently, at least for a short period of time, the "doors" are usually left open thereby allowing the utilisation of different pressures to simulate breezes, etc.


I don't see why having multistory domes is necessary, when you can have people living at completely different geometries to each other.
Again, indeed. The "multi-story dome" is something that I see as a structure within the larger hexagonal dome.


From the depictions and artwork in the Codex they are also rather densely urbanized with forests of spires and towers. With such construction density and the fact each Craftworld maintains fleets, armies, docks, etc... I'd keep their population estimates in the millions or billions.
Either that or, once again, they are exceptional representations and not the rule by far.

Kage

Rockerfella
01-11-2006, 15:14
[url=http://forums.anargo-sector.net/Anargo Sector Project Forums[/url].

Kage

I'm sorry, i cant seem to get this to work... *bah!!!!*:(

Voronwe[MQ]
01-11-2006, 15:20
A honeycomb structure of craftworlds sounds to be a very appealing idea to me. And add a bit of depth where GW misses it...

The infrastucture would then be compromised mainly by tunnels clad with a thick anti-gravitic layer which allows cylinder-shaped vehicles with advanced gyroscopes and internal gravity generators/plates to pass smoothly and at high speeds.

Wolflord Havoc
01-11-2006, 15:35
"Thats not a moon......." Obi Wan Kinobi

Rather large, big I would say, not too be sniffed at, impressively massive.

I would say definatly the size of a small moon - we are talking 'death star' proportions.

I have to agree that the blanchesque style drawings do not work for me.

I think of a craft world as a sort of large ever changing space 'reef' that is linked with massive areas of webway so that it is many many times larger than it appears in realspace.

In fact thinking about it, eldar tech would mean that the shape of the craft world is immaterial and the ever changing shape of the craft has 'more' to do with the whims of generations of bonesingers than any practical design needs.

Kage2020
01-11-2006, 22:43
I'm sorry, i cant seem to get this to work... *bah!!!!*
There was a typographic, or rather the absence of a ']'. The link should have been Anargo Sector Project Forums (http://forums.anargo-sector.net/), although the link in my signature also provides a link to this (i.e. the Anargo Sector Project Wiki (http://wiki.anargo-sector.net/)).


]The infrastucture would then be compromised mainly by tunnels clad with a thick anti-gravitic layer which allows cylinder-shaped vehicles with advanced gyroscopes and internal gravity generators/plates to pass smoothly and at high speeds.
Of course, the distance between the the various 'honeycomb cells' is not determined at this stage, so they could have wraithbone fibrils carrying power, information, etc., as well as rapid transport tubes, walkways or whatnot.

Kage

Voronwe[MQ]
02-11-2006, 06:35
Some 'honeycomb cells' would be empty or 'quarantined' for cultural/traditional reasons, others would primarily be used as agri-domes, industrial manufactories, warehouse depots, artificial/natural photosyntesis circulation chambers etc.

The space between the 'honeycomb cells' I find for some reason interesting...

Kage2020
02-11-2006, 11:36
Some 'honeycomb cells' would be empty or 'quarantined' for cultural/traditional reasons, others would primarily be used as agri-domes, industrial manufactories, warehouse depots, artificial/natural photosyntesis circulation chambers etc.
Indeed. The original 'fluff' describes the industrial and, for want of a better term, warehouse areas being on the exterior of the craftworld. For some reason I see the central 'biodomes' as being larger, decreasing in size as one moves to the exterior. That exterior is defined by 'half-domes' of docks, or whatever.

Overall some might find it a tad modular, though this is in no way preclusive to the whole "exterior towers" approach.


The space between the 'honeycomb cells' I find for some reason interesting...
That's because it can be interesting, I'm sure! :D

Kage

Voronwe[MQ]
02-11-2006, 16:02
1) Indeed. The original 'fluff' describes the industrial and, for want of a better term, warehouse areas being on the exterior of the craftworld. For some reason I see the central 'biodomes' as being larger, decreasing in size as one moves to the exterior. That exterior is defined by 'half-domes' of docks, or whatever.

Overall some might find it a tad modular, though this is in no way preclusive to the whole "exterior towers" approach.


2) That's because it can be interesting, I'm sure! :D

Kage

1) I too feels like this, although a bit more complicated, with the really large domes in centre (or 'Heart', look on my short piece on the Eldar story competition entrants, where I've tried some ideas), then a decrease in size, then a slight, but in a narrow area, increase in size as specific 'warehouses' appears, and then a pretty big drop, perhaps because it has to do with food compriming-methods, advanced cryo-preservators etc. I too find that the 'bio-domes' should be greater in general, perhaps 97% of the time.

2) Caught my point, then. :D

Gimp
04-11-2006, 14:28
The fluff states that by the end of the battle between the Tyranid Hive Fleet Kraken and the Eldar Craftworld of Lyanden (which at that stage was the largest and most populous of the craftworlds) that although the crftworld one the battle its "victory was hollow indeed.Thousands upon thousands of Eldar had been killed" and that the "four-fifths of the inhabitants lay dead".

So that means that there cant be many Eldar per a Craftworld. One should also remember that fluff can be different in the game for example Space Marines in the Fluff are really powerfull but in the game an Imperial Guards men with a bayonet can kill him.

cav da man
04-11-2006, 17:04
The fluff states that by the end of the battle between the Tyranid Hive Fleet Kraken and the Eldar Craftworld of Lyanden (which at that stage was the largest and most populous of the craftworlds) that although the crftworld one the battle its "victory was hollow indeed.Thousands upon thousands of Eldar had been killed" and that the "four-fifths of the inhabitants lay dead".

So that means that there cant be many Eldar per a Craftworld. One should also remember that fluff can be different in the game for example Space Marines in the Fluff are really powerfull but in the game an Imperial Guards men with a bayonet can kill him.
In the same way that people have been killed by half inch puddles. Thats all the guardsman really is at the end of the day anyway
Numbers in GW are very bad indeed, to go with the feel they use those numbers but they dont always add up which leads to alot of handwaving and going "it's space....it's the future.....anything can happen"

Gimp
04-11-2006, 19:36
In the same way that people have been killed by half inch puddles. Thats all the guardsman really is at the end of the day anyway
Numbers in GW are very bad indeed, to go with the feel they use those numbers but they dont always add up which leads to alot of handwaving and going "it's space....it's the future.....anything can happen"

And how a Space Marine in an Assualt Squad flies into a forest and crash into a tree and die. sigh

cav da man
04-11-2006, 21:30
And how a Space Marine in an Assualt Squad flies into a forest and crash into a tree and die. sigh

A space marines dies against a tree in a forest, does he make a sound?

Necro Angelo
04-11-2006, 21:46
Yes, like "CRASH,,, "OH NO MY JET PACK IS FAILING AHHHHHHH....!!!"

Anyway, as for the size of the Craftworlds they were supposedly built in haste to escape the on-growing "Eye of Terror", from which all Eldar originally came from, and so only a proportion of the population would have been able to evacuate; they say that the majority of the craft worlds were wiped out in the psychic shockwave caused by the birth of Slaanesh, and so maybe the remnants are all that's left of their "dying race". The size of the craftworlds? You can make an assumption that they started off small, but were probably adapted and made larger as time progressed- wraithbone is very flexible stuff.

malika
04-11-2006, 22:23
I'm sorry, i cant seem to get this to work... *bah!!!!*:(


First of all, the Doom of the Eldar game can be found on the Spanish GW site, however its in Spanish. linky (http://www.games-workshop.es/warhammer40k/razas/eldars/minijocs/destinoeldar_01.asp)

Perhaps try this link (http://anargo-sector.net/phpBB2/index.php) for the Anargo Sector Project forums, the one that Kage posted doesnt seem to work on my computer either, stupid windows! its weird though since both links lead to the same forum.

But as for the Craftworlds, perhaps we can see what our artists here can come up with?

Rockerfella
04-11-2006, 23:19
Thanks for the links.

Yeah, thats a great idea, to see what the folks here can come up with, you never know, we may get someting that we all agree is 'perfect' :)

Morentez
10-11-2006, 09:43
think BFG scale... the imagine if in that format it were 15m Wide, 20m Long, and 15 metres high, with a diameter of, yep... 15m

Slaaneshi Slave
10-11-2006, 10:06
They are nowhere near that big, there is a picture of one in 2nd Ed codex along with its escorts. The capital ships were about 25% the lenth of the craft world.

Morentez
10-11-2006, 10:15
oh... woops... but how kool a ship would one that size be! lol