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Western
25-10-2006, 07:17
I know it's not really a hard list, not a huge amount of magic defence (aside from high magic, fortune is fickle, drain magic, etc), but I like the feel of it, I think it'll be fun to play. The mage and Prince will probably both be with the White Lions, the comander will either go with the silver helms or spear elves (if I desperately need some staying power there), then again I could always nobly kamakazi him into a unit and hope he holds them up for a round or two (perhaps going for a flank in the meantime :angel: ).

I'll probably be holding off on a few of the non-hero models, until i see some previews of the new HE releases :)

Prince 233 (beast and high magic are the lore sets I like for the prince)
ring of fury
gem of hoeth
jewel of dusk
dragon armour
enchanted shield

Mage lvl2 170
seer, silver wand
(I like all the lores, though i'll be choosing more 'middle of road' spells. Which ones i'll pick depends on the opponent, for this mage the lores I dislike the most are fire, shadow, death. Heavens, metal, high and beasts are my favourites.)

commander 145
dragon armour
shield, lance
barded steed
lionguard

20 spear elves 238
standard, musician

5 silver helms 165
shields, heavy armour
full command
ellyrian banner

10 Archers 126
musician

2 chariots 170

6 shadow warriors 90

20 Whitelions 360
full command
banner of sorcery
amulet of purifying flame

2 bolt throwers 200

2 eagles 100

Total 1997

Tutore
25-10-2006, 08:13
I like the "mood" of the list, I´m sure you´ll have many problems winning with it unless you play a very good battle. There are only two infantry units....but I understand you. I also play with lists like that hoping to win. 50% of the times I also actually win!
The presence of magic, however, risks to create too many possibilities to your army, without a true strong point. You risk to be dispelled each turn spending a lot of points on magic without a result.

Teach
25-10-2006, 09:45
As Tutore. Nice list but look into your wizard.
With only one wiz you will not get the spells off. Lose the jewel of dusk and those dragon armours. Get some scrolls. Or cange your prince in a wizard.
White lions are very charakterfull.
Have fun

DesertDirge
25-10-2006, 13:43
I like the list but is doesn't have a main roll.

Tobias
25-10-2006, 15:00
I know it's not really a hard list, not a huge amount of magic defence (aside from high magic, fortune is fickle, drain magic, etc), but I like the feel of it, I think it'll be fun to play. The mage and Prince will probably both be with the White Lions, the comander will either go with the silver helms or spear elves (if I desperately need some staying power there), then again I could always nobly kamakazi him into a unit and hope he holds them up for a round or two (perhaps going for a flank in the meantime :angel: ).

I'll probably be holding off on a few of the non-hero models, until i see some previews of the new HE releases :)

Prince 233 (beast and high magic are the lore sets I like for the prince)
ring of fury
gem of hoeth
jewel of dusk
dragon armour
enchanted shield

HE HAS JEWEL, IF HE HAS A BAD SPELL YOU'VE GOT 2 USELES PD, GIVE HIM SILVER WANG AND THE OTHER MAGE THE JEWEL, HE ONLY CAN CAST 2 SPELLS A TURN ;)

Mage lvl2 170
seer, silver wand
(I like all the lores, though i'll be choosing more 'middle of road' spells. Which ones i'll pick depends on the opponent, for this mage the lores I dislike the most are fire, shadow, death. Heavens, metal, high and beasts are my favourites.)

commander 145
dragon armour
shield, lance
barded steed
lionguard

NO ANTI MAGIC!

20 spear elves 238
standard, musician

5 silver helms 165
shields, heavy armour
full command
ellyrian banner

10 Archers 126
musician

RATHER GET A SECOND SILVER HELM UNIT

2 chariots 170

6 shadow warriors 90

20 Whitelions 360
full command
banner of sorcery
amulet of purifying flame

MAKE THEM A UNIT OF 14 FOR FLANKING PURPOSES

2 bolt throwers 200

2 eagles 100

Total 1997

I would change you charachter set up take 2 mages and 2 commanders

Incoming
25-10-2006, 16:07
I think commanders aren't really that good, maybe remove one for more troops or another mage would be better.

Western
26-10-2006, 10:23
I can't help it Tobias as bad as the archers are it just doesn't feel like highelves without a unit of archers, I really like Phoenix guard and Seaguard as well but the list would be even worse with those choices. Anybody ever been able to make Phoenix guard work well?

Tobias
26-10-2006, 10:35
No, Seaguard are holy, Seaguard are great! Believe me! they rule! I´ve been able many times to use them well :)

Western
26-10-2006, 11:02
No, Seaguard are holy, Seaguard are great! Believe me! they rule! Ive been able many times to use them well :)

Using them as a paperweight? :evilgrin:

Tutore
26-10-2006, 12:50
I never use Seaguard because of their high cost. I used Phoenix Guard in many battles (when someone buys the miniatures, he has to use them!) with good and bad results.

Tobias
27-10-2006, 17:49
... I never had bad results with LSG! Believe me they are great

English 2000
28-10-2006, 22:51
I would drop the archers and beef up the Silver Helms.

It only takes one foor volley of fire or a magic missile to render them useless.

I echo the comments about taking two mages and two commanders. That's what I do with my HE and it works very well.

Lord_Byron
29-10-2006, 15:27
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the Radiant Gem of Hoeth and the Ring of Fury both enchanted items? I don't have the army book, but I think the prince may be illegal.

Von Wibble
29-10-2006, 17:50
Lord Byron is correct. The gem is too good not to take as it gives a combatty + magic character so the ring will need to move.

I would lose the archers and bolt throwers. 326 pts gained. Get a Loremaster commander, mounted, with lance and barding. Get 4 more Silver Helms. That gives a unit which can break through a lot - if backed up with a chariot. That leaves about 100 pts.

Seer I don't particularly like. Change it for the Ring of Fury. With Silver wand and Chaneller that should make a reasonable wizard.

Jewel goes to the prince as already suggested. Sword of Might or some kind of weapon could help with providing a little more punch.

Lion Guard commander is leading the spearmen? Must be as I don't think stubborn is good for cavalry. I would lose Lion Guard - reason being that White Lions are better off as a rare choice. Reaver Bow would be a useful replacement - a commander with this is imo better than a rbt so you get some shooting. That frees up a special choice for some ellyrian reavers.

You have enough shooting in this army to deal with fast cavalry and you
have annoyance troops by the bucketload. This should enable you to funnel units into your killy white lions, of course using the silver helms and chariots to negate one significant threat whilst using eagles to deal with another. There aren't many armies with 3 units capable of handling prince led white lions (and shadow warriors + reavers could prevent another unit from doing this...)

Lack of magic defense is a risk (maybe switch magic items around so you have a scroll), and lack of numbers even more so. This army will not forgive mistakes as much as some. Option 2 could be to replace the archers and rbts with another unit of spearmen and a commander (you may have to trim down teh white lions for this) - which gives an army with more numbers but less flexibility.

Tobias
29-10-2006, 20:16
@Von wibble ... First you sa he's got to drop the archer and bolt throwers and after that you say enough shooting? I say too less.
And Loremaster and Radium Gem aren't that usefull, that one pd they get is wasted points now. And you want to give the prince 2 PD what happens if he gets a sucky spell. that a big no. IMO, I don't know if you used it with much effect I only did with 6th.

I still say for your charachters 2 lvl 2 mages and 2 commanders, first do something what that info, then we'll se what's more to change

Von Wibble
30-10-2006, 17:28
Wrong, wrong, wrong. The power dice is used on bears anger or a D6 magic missile, or walk between worlds. All great uses (D6 S4 hits is about on a par with a rbt after all). All of these are the first spell in the deck so it doesn't matter if you roll poorly - you either get a great spell or a good one. And its not just a power dice, its also a dispel dice and a fighty character for less points than a mage.

A level 2 mage gives 1 extra power dice, and probably a dispel scroll. A loremaster gives 3 S6 attacks and costs about 50pts less. For me the greater flexibility of the loremaster wins every time. I like characters who can adapt to any situation they are in, especially when I get an extra few troops to help.

On shooting - shadow warriors plus ellyrion reavers plus reaver bow IS sufficient for the purposes I have outlined. I said enough shooting to deal with fast cavalry. Against anything else the rest of the army is designed to nicely kill it.

The archers and bolt throwers meanwhile do provide a little more shooting but are also easy vps. Which can't be said of any of the rest of army if the changes I have suggested are adopted.

English 2000
30-10-2006, 21:42
(D6 S4 hits is about on a par with a rbt after all).


RBT has double the range, 360 LOS vs 90 for a Mage (new rules mean you're mad to have him running around between units) and won't miscast.

RBT is armour peircing so therefore better at killing armour, can't be dispelled and has the option of a single shot so has more flexibility.

I'll choose the RBT over a d6 S4 magic missile any day.

The only thing that the magic missile has over the RBT is it gives me the ablity to say "I cast magic missile"

:P

Dogskills
31-10-2006, 01:02
Wrong, wrong, wrong. a D6 magic missile, or walk between worlds. All great uses (D6 S4 hits is about on a par with a rbt after all).


Ehe you cant dispel RBT..

English 2000
31-10-2006, 01:51
Ehe you cant dispel RBT..

I already said that ;)

Tobias
31-10-2006, 15:46
Wrong, wrong, wrong. The power dice is used on bears anger or a D6 magic missile, or walk between worlds. All great uses (D6 S4 hits is about on a par with a rbt after all). All of these are the first spell in the deck so it doesn't matter if you roll poorly - you either get a great spell or a good one. And its not just a power dice, its also a dispel dice and a fighty character for less points than a mage.

And the spell gets dispelled, and your hero is easy to kill, magic missile isn't good because you want a hero in cc, And what if you aren't in cc you have 1 useles pd, and it is a fighty charachter without armour. I'm sorry even a commander would kick a prince like that.

A level 2 mage gives 1 extra power dice, and probably a dispel scroll. A loremaster gives 3 S6 attacks and costs about 50pts less. For me the greater flexibility of the loremaster wins every time. I like characters who can adapt to any situation they are in, especially when I get an extra few troops to help.

Does loremaster do that? Really, did you know you need to roll to cast the spells, and they can be dispelled, more flexible, nope not, it was only good when you could have d3 re rolls

On shooting - shadow warriors plus ellyrion reavers plus reaver bow IS sufficient for the purposes I have outlined. I said enough shooting to deal with fast cavalry. Against anything else the rest of the army is designed to nicely kill it.

It's not, they can be ignored to easy

The archers and bolt throwers meanwhile do provide a little more shooting but are also easy vps. Which can't be said of any of the rest of army if the changes I have suggested are adopted.

Easy VPs? Really, they are great.

Von Wibble
31-10-2006, 18:13
English 2000 - I only meant it is on a par in terms of hitting power. I agree with the other points.

Tobias -

Your first point is valid - the extra power dice will be wasted at times. But tbh I tend to buy the ability for the dispel dice and potential extra spell every now and then. Also note Bear's anger has a range so can be used whether or not you are in combat - only really not useful on turn 1 if the enemy is aggressive, turns 1-2 otherwise.

Note the gem btw can be combined with armour - you seem to be under the impression that is not the case.

Your 2nd point is not valid. I said more flexible than a mage. Remember that in the army you advocate 2 fighters 2 wizards. I advocate 1 fighter, 1 wizard, and 2 fighter/wizards. The comparison is between a loremaster and a mage.

The loremaster is more flexable than the mage as he can cast spells nearly as well and can provide punch to the unit he is with. 3S6 attacks comes from a charging commander with lance. A charging mage has 1 S3 attack. Compare that to losing 1 power dice its a definate improvement. Thats before you throw in the 50pts saved.

Claims that the loremaster is vulnerable are true -if you let him be attacked. Personally, I don't - he is in the middle of a unit with a 16" charge range. Unlikely to be charged (unless I make a mistake - but that's my fault) and good enough in hitting power to kill anything he charges without being struck back (he isn't going to try to charge a bloodthirster after all). He should face at worst a single attack from an intantry man all game if played right. Thanks to his high WS that i can live with.

I always use a Loremaster. Not once have I lost one in combat where it wasn't through the unit running away/the attacks wouldn't have killed an armoured commander.


I don't follow your 3rd point. What can be ignored easily?

Tobias
31-10-2006, 19:24
Yup, and with bots the loremaster and the gem, you have 2 ignore power dice with the jewel makes it 3!

The Commander is on a steeds, so bears anger was models on foot I thought? And magic missiles don't mind when you're in cc. But what list do you use?

The shooting in the list can be ignore easily, with LOS etc and S3 aint that much, most of the time you move than shoot at an enemy at long range is - 2 on shooting.

And a mage can get bears anger too, so he'll be a fighter too, only one that can do more at long range. I know for sure that versus every army I play you face, your lvl 1 mages would be useles and your shooting can be ignored and with the lack of magic even screens would survive and units won't be powered down.
(and I know about the gem but you only mentioned loremaster)

Von Wibble
01-11-2006, 17:21
The shooting is not ignored easily by fast cav. Thats all I want to shoot. The rest of the army can happily deal with the rest.

If you look at the suggested list plus my suggested changes, there is a unit of shadow warriors (short range), Ellyrian reavers (short range) and reaver bow (high BS). Fast cav tend to have t3 and little armour. So why can all those shots be ignored?

I mentioned the gem as the prince has it. He is also on foot so can use bear's anger which has a range so could be cast even if he isn't in cc. And I concede that the dice is sometimes wasted.

Mage with bears anger will not be able to reliably give the 3S6 attacks on charge, and will need to be on foot so can't help teh cavalry. He might be fighty and shooty, but won't do much good in teh role I have suggested for the loremaster, (for whom i would usually have portent of far to help prevent silver helm rubber lance syndrome. With combat expected in at least 3 turns thats not imo a wasted pd).

Tobias
01-11-2006, 20:47
The her o on steed can do bears anger(not the prince)
Well the shooting, youmave most of the time long range,hitting on 5's with S3, can be ignored
Your lord can be ignored too, much points on foot.
The only good thing about loremaster etc etc are the extra dd