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T10
25-10-2006, 07:38
This is the situation:

My unit of Trolls was joined by a Goblin Big Boss on a Gigantic Spider and were engaged in close combat with some Chosen Warriros of Chaios. The Goblin got himself killed and the Spider passed it's leadership test. The unit lost combat got run down.

This did raise a couple of questions that we fortunately(?) did not need to address at that time.

Can the Spider stay with the Trolls?
I saw nothing to indicate that it would have to *leave* the unit, but I seem to recall that it would not normally be allowed to join without a character.

It seems reasonable to assume that the Spider would be restricted from leaving the unit in the same manner as a character - e.g. not during combat, charges or compulsory movement.

Can the Trolls use the Spider's Leadership?
The Gigantic Spider has a Leadership of 7, but it seems odd that it should be allowed to take on the role as the unit's leader.

-T10

Gorbad Ironclaw
25-10-2006, 08:04
It's the same with a daemonic steed and having it's rider killed.The spider isn't able to join the Trolls, it can only do so as long as there is a character.

What I'd do was to resolve the combat phase, then move the spider out of the troll unit as it's own separate unit. It's not dealt with in the rules, but that seems to be the thing closet to the effect of other rules

T10
25-10-2006, 08:07
And on the Leadership issue?

-T10

Gorbad Ironclaw
25-10-2006, 08:15
Well, as the Spider would be evicted from the unit at the first possible moment, it shouldn't really come up. But else I guess I'd just use the highest leadership. It's what you do everywhere else.

Multifarious
25-10-2006, 10:23
It would look hilarious though.

Thug: Ugh....What we do next? Where da puny squeaky wun?
Argh: He...gone?
Giant Spider: Chitter-Chitter...Chitter...Squaak. (Translation, go and attack that enemy over there)
Thug: You heard Da boss.

NakedFisherman
25-10-2006, 13:45
He's allowed to stay in the unit. He's just not allowed to join or leave the unit.

I'd say the Trolls can use the Spider's leadership. He, after all, has the highest leadership of the unit.

Trolls are likely to just follow the Gigantic Spider's lead when he (well, probably she) runs off to fight stuff.

Festus
25-10-2006, 13:57
Hi

He's allowed to stay in the unit. He's just not allowed to join or leave the unit.
Nope, it is not allowed to stay: Only characters can join units, units may not merge during a game, not even units of the same type. The spider without character is a monster and may thus not stay with the unit.

cf. p. 58 BRB, right column, *The Monster Model*: Mosters always fight on their own. They may never from units with other models, as long as they are not ridden by characters. (Translation from German BRB)

NakedFisherman
25-10-2006, 14:15
cf. p. 58 BRB, right column, *The Monster Model*: Mosters always fight on their own. They may never from units with other models, as long as they are not ridden by characters. (Translation from German BRB)

Form, join, leave -- they are the same thing. It is a one-time action.

If you consider each turn to recalculate when a character 'joins' a unit, then perhaps it's best to specify in your house rules when this time occurs. That is the time that the monster must leave the unit.

The ambiguity stems from the lack of a time when a monster leave the unit (perhaps as soon as the character dies is simplest) and the sentence 'Monsters always fight on their own', which has little meaning in the rules.

I'd be inclined to just have the monster leave the unit as soon as the character dies.

Festus
25-10-2006, 14:19
...and the sentence 'Monsters always fight on their own', which has little meaning in the rules.
... apart from the meaning that a Monster may never be part of another unit, joined, left, right, or whatever. Rules is rules, and those are very unambiguous.

Festus

Atrahasis
25-10-2006, 15:32
... apart from the meaning that a Monster may never be part of another unit, joined, left, right, or whatever. Rules is rules, and those are very unambiguous.

Festus

The sentence "Monsters always fight on their own" is clearly false, regardless of its place in the rules. We all know that monsters DO NOT always fight on their own, sometimes they are ridden by characters, and sometimes by non-characters, and sometimes they join units (when ridden) or are part of units on their own (Monsters and Handlers).

Unless you are suggesting that a ridden monster is not a monster?

There is no mechanism in the rules (or permission, if you like) for a monster to leave a unit when its ride is slain, and therefore it cannot be done.

We can only do what the rules say we can do, after all.

Festus
25-10-2006, 15:42
Hi

Which monsters fight in units and are not ridden by characters (or explicitly part of a unit, as in their bestiary entry: Salamanders, and/or considered ridden: Hydra)?

Festus

Atrahasis
25-10-2006, 15:48
Hi

Which monsters fight in units and are not ridden by characters (or explicitly part of a unit, as in their bestiary entry: Salamanders, and/or considered ridden: Hydra)?

Festus

I was referring to Hydra, and as you can see they do not fight on their own, so the sentence "Monsters always fight on their own" is false.

Regardless, there is no permission/mechanism given for the spider to leave the unit, so it can't.

Festus
25-10-2006, 16:12
I was referring to Hydra, and as you can see they do not fight on their own, so the sentence "Monsters always fight on their own" is false.
Hi
Well ,from a rules perspective, it is not false, (and it is just part of a sentence :( )as those are the general rules, whch are overridden by a unit's special rules. In the case of the Hydra, this is the rule *Controlled*, with character ridden Monsters it is the rule on p.58, directly after the part you quoted... :eyebrows:


Regardless, there is no permission/mechanism given for the spider to leave the unit, so it can't.There equally is no permission for the Monster to be part of the unit, as only characters may be parts of other units.

Festus

Atrahasis
25-10-2006, 16:28
There equally is no permission for the Monster to be part of the unit, as only characters may be parts of other units.

Do you have a quotation to support your position?

Festus
25-10-2006, 16:31
Do you have a quotation to support your position?
Why, do you? Oh my god... now he is asking for a quote of a thing of which I say that it don't exist... What else? Pictures of flying invisible monkeys??? :rolleyes:

Atrahasis
25-10-2006, 16:56
Why, do you? Oh my god... now he is asking for a quote of a thing of which I say that it don't exist... What else? Pictures of flying invisible monkeys??? :rolleyes:

The burden of proof is on you to show the mechanism/permission for the spider to be ejected from the unit.

There is NO RULE saying that monsters cannot be part of units. There are rules saying that they cannot JOIN units, but joining is an action and not a state.

We can only do what the rules say we can do.

mageith
25-10-2006, 17:15
Form, join, leave -- they are the same thing. It is a one-time action.

If you consider each turn to recalculate when a character 'joins' a unit, then perhaps it's best to specify in your house rules when this time occurs. That is the time that the monster must leave the unit.

:) I think a house ruling is required on this one. Either that or a (hated) dice roll.

Monsters can't join. Monsters have no rule to leave, do they? And monsters can't form up except under certain circumstances (mostly being ridden).

This actually came up in our last game and we just left the monster in the unit. We didn't consult the rules. I did ask whether reactions could be tested and was happy to find that is now immediate because at least that makes sense.



The ambiguity stems from the lack of a time when a monster leave the unit (perhaps as soon as the character dies is simplest) and the sentence 'Monsters always fight on their own', which has little meaning in the rules.

:) There's no ambiguity. There is just no rule. The monster can't be there but there is no mechanism for him to leave.



I'd be inclined to just have the monster leave the unit as soon as the character dies.
OK. I agree in theory. But how?

Let's say the monster takes up four places the middle of a unit. Now he's got to go. Where?

On the leadership issue. I'd so no. Even if the monster is physically in the unit, he's no longer part of the unit.

Gorbad Ironclaw
25-10-2006, 17:54
OK. I agree in theory. But how?

Let's say the monster takes up four places the middle of a unit. Now he's got to go. Where?

If it wasn't in combat, I'd just let the player move the monster out of the unit using it's normal movement. If in combat, I'd place it in combat such that it maximised contact.

mageith
25-10-2006, 18:29
If it wasn't in combat, I'd just let the player move the monster out of the unit using it's normal movement. If in combat, I'd place it in combat such that it maximised contact.

That's a lot. Losing the rider is a gain for the loser in most cases.

Let's say a unit of 20 rank and file with a 4 space monster is 5 wide. The monster moves during combat. The frontage is how 7 wide. The unit still has full rank bonus and two more infantry models may attack.

OTOH, a unit of 16 will lose a rank bonus but will gain more attacks and more frontage.

In addition, in both cases who is fighting who changes which may or may not be signficant.

In addition, it may result in sliding ;) if players decide maximization is in effect.

In other words, this opens up lots and lots of question and mutual decisions that need to be made.

In addition engaged units can't disengage.

I'd just leave things as they are until normal events allow the units to separate. This still leaves the question of rank bonuses open though.

There is no good and logical solution.

T10
25-10-2006, 22:22
There is no good and logical solution.

So it's just down to working out an acceptable solution with one's opponent. Fair enough. Personally, I'd take the monster's current state into account.

If it passed it's monster reaction test, thus behaving normally for the rest of the game, I'd suggest the monster leave the unit under the same conditions that would apply if the character was still alive. E.g. while the unit is not under compulsion to move, or charging or fighting or what-ever.

If the monster is subject to the monster reaction tables, it seems reasonable that it would leave the unit to pursue it's new behavioral pattern, menaing that the unit should not voluntary perform actions that would deny the monster the opportuity to leave.

If the moster is under compulsion to remain stationary, it seems reasonable to allow the unit to leave the monster rather than vice versa.

-T10

sliganian
26-10-2006, 17:48
'Scuse my Noobieness, but isn't the real issue this:

The Character on the Monster COULD NOT have joined the Trolls in the first place?

Problem solved. :)

Atrahasis
26-10-2006, 20:06
'Scuse my Noobieness, but isn't the real issue this:

The Character on the Monster COULD NOT have joined the Trolls in the first place?

Problem solved. :)

No. Only characters on flying monsters/chariots are prohibited from joining units.

Characters on foot or a non-flying mount are permitted to join units.