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Rikkjourd
26-10-2006, 10:40
Having studied the new O&G book I have come up with a few questions I need help to clarify.

1. Wollopas One hit Wounda is one use only. Shall I assume that it functions as a magic hand weapon with no bonuses the turns I don't use the ability, thus preventing me from using a great weapon in other turns? Or shall I regard it as "one use only" in the sense that I can ONLY use the One Hit Wounda when I actually use the strength bonus? In the latter case I can use a great weapon in other turns.

2. I noticed that goblin big bosses don't have the option to ride a normal spider. However, I had planned to model a big boss in a spider rider unit for war machine hunting against dwarves sometimes... So my question is, if I put a wolf big boss in a spider rider unit, will they lose the wall crawler ability? I guess they would, but I might have missed something.

3. The Amulet of Protectyness gives the bearer the same save and ward save as the model who caused the wound. If I give him something better of his own, would he be able to use it? I know that you may choose the best one in the case of several ward saves, as stated in the BRB. I don't know if this item overrules this or if I may choose. The same question goes for normal armour save too, but AFAIK that doesn't have a reference in the rule book (since armour save normally is added up, ward saves are not).

blurred
26-10-2006, 11:15
1. I believe you have to use the One hit wunda even though you are not using (or you have used) the special ability.

2. No idea.

3. You must use the enemy's saves. That's why I never buy any kind of armor to my warboss. Fighting characters = good, fighting RnF = :cries:

;)

Avian
26-10-2006, 11:27
1. He must use it, but it has no special effect in other rounds (apart from negating some ward saves, etc.)

2. The unit does not lose it, but neither does the character benefit from it, so in most cases when you move through difficult terrain you will be slowed down (it is debatable if the unit can move at full speed if the unit is within the terrain and the character is outside it.) A better idea is to mount the guy on a Gigantic Spider.

3. You MUST use the enemy model's save, regardless of whether it's better or not. Thus you don't give it to a model that has or can have a good save.

T10
26-10-2006, 11:30
1. The weapon still counts as a magical weapon even if it's effect is not in use or applicable. A sword that wounds Dwarfs on 2+ is still a magical weapon when used against Dryads.

2. Odd, that. But yes, the wolf does not have the Spiders' special movement ability. The consequences may not explicitly stated, but it seems reasonable to assume that the most restricitve movement rules apply to the unit.

3. In the case of multiple available ward saves you always use the best ward save. It would not be unreasonable to assume that the same goes for armour saves. You should not add up the armour saves.

Edit: Hm. The item is rather explicit in that you use the attacker's saves.

-T10

Rikkjourd
26-10-2006, 12:15
Thanks for your fast replies guys! To sum it up:
1. Must use at all times.
2. Lose move through terrain, better to use a gigantic spider or put in a wolf rider unit.
3. Must use enemy's save, since magic item is explicit and overrides BRB about ward saves.

DeathlessDraich
26-10-2006, 12:19
Q3. Amulet of Prot.

The rules for the usage of magical items have not been changed as far as I can see.
Only magic weapons pg 121 "...must be used".

The Amulet is a Talisman and does not have similar restrictions.
The player can opt not to use Talismans or Enchanted items and probably magical armour although this might cause problems.

The Amulet's use is phrased as "when the bearer is wounded he counts as having etc" - no 'must'. Therefore he does not have to use the Amulet if he doesn't want to.
This might be debatable but my interpretation is he can opt Not to use the amulet when he is wounded and simply use his armour.
blurred: the amulet could be better tha expected!

Avian
26-10-2006, 12:24
I believe you are wrong. A player cannot choose to not use magic items, or Chaos players with the Helm of Many Eyes would choose to not use it when not in combat to avoid taking Stupidity tests. Only if the item gives you a choice can you choose to not use it.

In the case of the Amulet, the case is clear: the bearer counts as having the same save as whoever it was that wounded him. No option there, the item effectively negates the bearer's own armour and ward save.

Rikkjourd
26-10-2006, 12:24
Hmm, good points. Just as I thought I got it all cleared up, you come along and start it all over again! =)

A little OT: I just realized that it won't matter that much to me, since I plan on giving it to a goblin warboss, which other than that only would get LA + shield. That makes it a kinda small probability that he would be better off with his own gear...

DeathlessDraich
26-10-2006, 18:18
I believe you are wrong. A player cannot choose to not use magic items, or Chaos players with the Helm of Many Eyes would choose to not use it when not in combat to avoid taking Stupidity tests. Only if the item gives you a choice can you choose to not use it.

In the case of the Amulet, the case is clear: the bearer counts as having the same save as whoever it was that wounded him. No option there, the item effectively negates the bearer's own armour and ward save.

We've had this debate before under 6th rules. I think the result was inconclusive. We were go again I suppose. :p

True, Helm of many eyes, Crown of Damned etc subjects the bearer to stupidity. Stupidity is tested at the start of the turn well before shooting or combat.
It may seem as if there is no decision needed to use the Helm or Crown because they have to roll for stupidity first.
However, the bearer is not intrinsically prone to Stupidity but only by virtue of bearing the magic item.
Two other interpretations are possible ( an interpretation with the same validity as the one you propose):
a) the decision to use the above magic item has simply been brought forward and once the bearer tests for stupidity he is using the item for that turn
b) or possibly once the first test for Stupidity is made, subsequent tests are necessary because he is afflicted with Stupidity.

The bearer could choose not to use the Helm or Crown for that turn and therefore do not have to roll for Stupidity. This is still in keeping with the rules as written.
Of course this never comes up because players who have given the Crown or Helm to a character would always want to use it.

The rules do not explicitly state the magic items other than magic weapons must be used. The fact that the phrase "must be used" is present in the magic weapons section and not the othe magic items section indicates that usage is not compulsory.
Under talismans the rules state "no restrictions", Doesn't this include the
restriction of non usage?

T10
27-10-2006, 05:50
I'd ask "What are you rambling about?", but it seems clear that your position is that you may choose not to use an item (weapons excepted) and thus avoid any negative effects it might convey.

Though I applaud your strength of will and courage - not many dare stand and spit Black in the eye and call him White - I would recommend pursuing this line of thought in a thread dedicated to it's discussion rather than cluttering up this one.

-T10

DeathlessDraich
27-10-2006, 14:25
It is relevant to Q3 of the 1st post. References and comparisons to Helm of the Eyes and Stupidity was started by Avian to whom I'm answering
A little patience goes a long way.
The thread initiator, Rikkjourd, finds my comments relevant and probably finds your comments unusually cantankerous.
Where is the refreshing T10 sense of humour?

woytek
27-10-2006, 14:33
Are there any items where it says that you can choose to use them that turn?

Atrahasis
27-10-2006, 14:59
Draich, can you supply me with a quotation to support your claim that (I'll paraphrase) any equipment which is not explicitly compulsory in its use must therefore be optional?

There is no rule which says "a character with a magic item may choose not to use it", only a statement that regarldess of other weaponry, a magical weapon if obtained must be used.

You are extrapolating that rule well beyond its scope.

DeathlessDraich
27-10-2006, 18:59
Yes, you're right.
There is no rule that says that "a character may not choose to use a magic item" neither is there a rule which says "a character equipped with an arcane, enchanted item, magical banner or talisman must use it" or "must always use it".

As I said 3 posts ago one interpretation is just as valid as the other.
I lean towards giving the character a choice and I recall from a previous debate you took the opposite view Atrahasis.

There is no extrapolation on my part. Since the rules for magic items expicitly forbids its non usage, then the absence of this rule for other magic items reinforces my contention that they do not have to be used. I'm not saying that this is a clear rule but at least the rules lend support to my interpretation.

There definitely cannot be a general rule which states that a magic item "must be used at the first possible opportunity"

A character chooses when he/she uses a dispel scroll, a Brass Orb, a Hail of Doom arrow or the Book of Arkan.

woytek: I don't think there is a magic item which states that you have a choice of not using it but look at the list above and consider again.
At the same time I can't think of one which states it "must be used".

Atrahasis
27-10-2006, 19:16
A character chooses when he/she uses a dispel scroll, a Brass Orb, a Hail of Doom arrow or the Book of Arkan

All of these examples give the charcter the choice in the description of the item.

Most other items say "the bearer". Whether the character chooses to use it or not, he is still the bearer.

woytek
27-10-2006, 19:18
In the book they only mention that you have to use a magic weapon instead of any mundane weapons! This means that you can't fight with a great weapon for a particular combat if you bought a magic weapon.

Since you don't have to choose between talismans or other items such rule is not needed, and therefore you may not choose not to use it. You bought it, so you use it. You can't replace it by anything else like you can do with a magic weapon.