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gukal
26-10-2006, 18:55
This one has my head spinning ...

Assume:

1. You've just declared two separate charges by two independent characters against a nearby group of enemy skirmishers.
2. The nearest enemy skirmisher is the same for each charge.
3. The models are arranged as follows:

S...S....S....S
...S...S....S
......S



C1........C2

S=Skirmisher; C=Character

How should the charges be resolved?

We know that multiple charges against the same arc of a unit are "moved in simultaneously" and "must try to bring as many models into the fight as possible." (BRB 23)

We know that a skirmishing unit "does not have a specific facing" (BRB 65) until it engages in close combat.

We know that when skirmishers charge skirmishers the nearest friendly skirmisher is moved into base-to-base with the nearest enemy skirmisher and that the battleline is then formed running perpendicular to this charge movement. (BRB 67)

Would you move both characters simultaneously and split the frontage of the nearest enemy skirmisher?

If so, you'd get roughly three enemy skirmishers into combat. This doesn't feel like maximizing.

S.S.S
.C.C.

If the two character are side by side in contact with the nearest enemy, you get a maximum of four similarly sized bases into combat. This has the feel of the correct answer.

S.S.S.S
...C.C...

If you really really try to maximize enemy models, you could fudge it to get up to six similarly sized enemy models into combat. This, however, deemphasizes the requirement to move into contact with the nearest enemy.

S.S.S.S.S.S
...C.......C...

In any event, how would you determine the orientation of the battleline? I suppose you could use the vector of the first declared charge. However, this easy solution fails to account for the vector of the second simultaneous charge.

Alternatively, would you resolve the two charges separately because until the first charger move into base to base, there is no common charge arc to force the simultaneous move. In such a case, even though they charged from roughly the same direction, the second charger could end up in the flank of the enemy skirmishers.

I welcome all thoughts.

- Gukal

mageith
27-10-2006, 02:24
We know that a skirmishing unit "does not have a specific facing" (BRB 65) until it engages in close combat.

We know that when skirmishers charge skirmishers the nearest friendly skirmisher is moved into base-to-base with the nearest enemy skirmisher and that the battleline is then formed running perpendicular to this charge movement. (BRB 67)

Would you move both characters simultaneously and split the frontage of the nearest enemy skirmisher?
....

In any event, how would you determine the orientation of the battleline? I suppose you could use the vector of the first declared charge. However, this easy solution fails to account for the vector of the second simultaneous charge.

Sounds like a can of worms.

You maybe found the death knell for peg and flank tactic vs. Raiders and other skirmishers.

"When two or more friendly units are charging against a single enemy's front flank or rear, they are moved simultaneously..." (23)

So is what the skirmisher has ALL front or is it not any of the above?

"A skirmishing unit does not have a specific facing..." (65) Is this the same as no front, flank or rear? No, see page 8 for explanation of facing.

FLANK & REAR CHARGES......because an attack from an unexpected direction gives you an advantage... (20) This pretty likely fluff, but skirmishers cannot be attacked from an unexpected direction, can they? At least not initially.

Rule: "A charging unit's position at the start of the movement phase determines whether it charges in the front, flank or rear of the enemy unit.[/b] (20)

Is this helpful? Maybe. If a skirmisher is said to have no front, flank or rear, then according to the above rule, it cannot be charged at all ("determines") because we have to charge in one of the zones. Obviously not helpful.

Or at the very least prohibits the second charge from being completed. If we say the skirmisher has NO ZONES until ranked up, the 2nd charger couldn't possibly be in any of them at the beginning of the movement phase. Not much more helpful.

IF we say the skirmisher is ALL FRONT ZONE, then the multiple chargers all must end up in the same Front zone when the simultaneous charge is made.

To follow the rules exactly would present a hardship, however for multiple chargers in many if not most cases. Since the chargers must stop when the reach the closest skirmisher. there must be enough charge distance for them to make wide arcs so they end up both facing the same direction and parallel and with an even frontage, since there is no allowance to re-adjust the chargers once they've reached their skirmisher target.

In short, the rules aren't really very helpful here since they are contradictory and largely impossible to follow. So in the end, probably nothing will change and skirmishers can still be pegged and flanked as before because it works.

Mage Ith



Alternatively, would you resolve the two charges separately because until the first charger move into base to base, there is no common charge arc to force the simultaneous move. In such a case, even though they charged from roughly the same direction, the second charger could end up in the flank of the enemy skirmishers.

Yep. Same as before. Except its not a charge arc that's important, but the charged arc, that is, the zones of the charger and the position (not charge arc) of the charger that determines the proper zone.

If GW said the zone was determined when the unit charges, that would have been helpful and probably more like people play it. For example, a unit in the frontal zone of a unit makes a normal move or a march move and goes into a different zone. Then magically he attempts to charge the different zone, a zone he was not in at the beginning of the Movement phase but was in at the beginning of the Magical Phase Charge. Again, I imagine most people play it that way anyway.

Oh well, Mage Ith

T10
27-10-2006, 06:23
Skirmishers getting charged by multiple units simply isn't covered by the rules. Well, apart from the rules that say "we couldn't cover everything". :) In this case you are left to work out the situation in a friendly manner with your opponent.

Of course, a standard way of working this out will save a lot of time. Here's my suggestion:

1) Determine which chargers are in reach of at least one model in the target These chargers *will* be brought into contact with the unit. The rest suffer failed charges as appropriate.

2) Align the battle line based on the charge of one of the charging units, preferably the one the unit would have fled away from if they selected the Flee reaction, ignoring those units that fail to reach any target models.

3) The remaining chargers starting to the front of the battle line are arranged side by side as close as possible.

4) The skirmishers are then rearranged to maximise contact with the chargers to the front.

5) Now that the target unit has been arranged into a regular formation the remaining chargers are moved to its flanks and rear as appropriate.

Reasonable?




I welcome all thoughts.

- Gukal

Is my tongue is disolving my mouth?

-T10

Shaitan
27-10-2006, 09:30
I find the T10's suggestion very reasonable.
I believe that's how I and my friends play it...