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George
27-10-2006, 03:52
Hey everybody! I got the Battle for Skull Pass set last week and I've been having a lot of fun with it, so I did some research, decided I wanted to go Dwarves, and have bought two battalion sets, which works out to 48 melee units, 32 ranged units, and two artillery units. I was thinking two warrier units, a thunderer unit, a quarreller unit, a canon and an organ gun. I'd also have 12 warriors, 10 thunderers, 8 miners and a canon from the Skull Pass set, along with one Thane character and one Dragon Slayer Character. Does anybody have advise for how to go about fleshing this out, or have better ideas? Thanks!!

Atzcapotzalco
27-10-2006, 04:16
Myself, my favourite dwarf units/artillery pieces are flamecannons for mass destruction of infantry blocks, bolt throwers as cheap reliable artillery, and ironbreakers for crushing your enemies under gromril boots. As an aside, I would advise you to consider slightly larger missile units with shields and command groups-unlike most missile troops dwarfs can still put up a good fight when they have to, and you should take advantage of that.

heretics bane
27-10-2006, 15:49
plenty of big units of warriors/longbeards, i prefare organ guns over bolt throwers as organ guns can dissamate units and causes many panick tests, a dwarf lord with shiled bearers gives you soem added punch

mfran00
27-10-2006, 16:23
Blocks of 20 dwarfs with shields. 2 units of 10 thunderers. organ gun. Cannon.

And from there you can do what you want. :)

George
29-10-2006, 05:54
I was sort of leaning toward the two units of warriors, two units of thunderers, one cannon and one organ gun idea. 20x and 10x sound like good solid numbers for the warrior and thunderer units. I also have a couple of Thanes and a Dragon Slayer. What about going 19x with the warrior units and having the Thanes deploy with them?

Latro
29-10-2006, 06:41
Units of 20 Warriors (or 19 with character) work great in 1k battles. If you're planning on going for 1.5k or larger battles, I would strengthen them to 25 (or 24 with character). That way you can take the charge from strong enemy units (heavy cavalry and such) and still have maximum ranks the following round.

- a BSB is also a very important part of a Dwarf army, especially in larger battles since you rely on taking the charge and not breaking

- get a Dragonslayer ... no army should leave home without it's own Snorri :D

- save the expensive runes for larger battles ... having more Dwarfs on the battle-field is better

TheWarSmith
29-10-2006, 06:52
Good advice on the runes. Keep in mind that dwarves are good at combat without spending 125 points on a kitted dwarf lord. I personally suggest a runelord. He's still got punch to him, and you can take the anvil in bigger games.

10 thunderers and 20-25 warriors/longbeards is pretty common. 12 miners(6x2) is really good.

As for warmachines, flame cannon is almost always a must IMO. It's infantry killing power is insane, and the panic check is key. Organ guns are useful too, but I'd take a flame cannon first.

BlazeXI
29-10-2006, 14:40
The miners are not so great unless you play a gunline army. Against armies with no artilery with Dwarf's movement of 3" they are basicly useless.

What I would do with 2 battalions and battle for Skull Pass minis:
You have:
12 warriors with axe and shield full command (BFSP)
10 Thunderers full command (BFSP)
8 miners (BFSP)
Cannon (BFSP)
48 warriors/longbeards (Battalion)
32 ranged dwarfs (battalion)
2 artilery (battalion)
1 Slayer
1 lord

What I would do with 2 battalions and battle for Skull Pass minis:

Lords/heroes:
untill you buy other minis the BFSP Slayer will have to act as a dragon slayer, the plastic lord as lord/thane (not a great model) and if you are not using the miners their standard bearer could act as a BSB.

Core:
I'd leave the 12 strong BFSP warrior unit as an auxiliary unit (I use a small unit of 10 warriors with great weapons in that role - just do not use the standard and musician, as it would be expensive points-wise)

divide the 48 warriors into 2 units, one as warriors the other as longbeards. One has to have great weapons.

10 BFSP Thunderes with command - do not change anything
32 shooty dwarfs: make one as a standard bearer and one as musician; you have 30 left; make 20 crossbowmen and 10 thunderers. This way you will get more or less an even selection of either. You could either go with 4 units of 10 dwarfs (2 crossbows, 2 thunderers) or only 2 units but with bigger numbers

If you really like the miners you could convert the BSB from one of the shooty units but then you will have a total of 41 ranged dwarfs.

Now you have the BFSP cannon and two cannon/organ gun sets.
I would build one of the sets as a cannon the other as an organ gun.
Most games are played with 2 rare slots. As some people have mentioned earlier the flamecannon if a fun machine that is effective. Leave one slot for it.

A quick check and without runes the models you have are enough for 1948 points and over 2500 if you max out on runes.

You still will have to add some other units later, like Flame cannon, hammerers, lord on shield to name a few. But for core you have more than enough.

George
29-10-2006, 15:06
Wow, guys! Thanks for all the advice!

What do you think about Bolt Throwers? They seems pretty useful to me, but I haven't played many games and I don't know how they actually play out compared to the other artillery machines of Dwarves.

Latro
29-10-2006, 16:03
Bolt Throwers are very good:

- they are a 2 for 1 special choice ... very important with all the great special choices Dwarfs have

- you can buy about 2 Bolt Throwers compared to the price of the other war machines (with the runes they usually have)

... with Engineer upgrades they are very effective. Two of them are a serious threat, four of them are deadly.

Nanozzo
29-10-2006, 16:15
where i can put engineer in war machine crew!
i prefer organ cannon to flame cannon if you can 2 of this!
flame are good agaist army like ogre Kingdoms or caos beast with r&f with more than 1 wounds!
I prefer my characters with great defenfive power not offensive ones cause the low mobility!
i use them to attract animies and stop them in a challenge!
you can create the best conbination of protective divicies with your runes!
your R&F are the best shield wall of WHFB!
Only agaist heavy cavalry you may fear samething

BlazeXI
29-10-2006, 19:06
Bolt Throwers are very good:

- they are a 2 for 1 special choice ... very important with all the great special choices Dwarfs have

- you can buy about 2 Bolt Throwers compared to the price of the other war machines (with the runes they usually have)

... with Engineer upgrades they are very effective. Two of them are a serious threat, four of them are deadly.

Of course bolt throwers are great buy. For 120 points you get a nice pair of warmachines with BS upgrade (engineers) taking only one slot. But take them when you face opponents with lots of ranks. Agains Beasts or Woodelves they are not so great as against Orcs and Goblins or Skaven. Agains those Goblin Hewer is mandatory as well.

George
29-10-2006, 20:59
I have a question about how engineers work. I know that Master Engineers are characters, but if you just want to add a plain old Engineer to an artillery unit, do you just say that one of the crew is an engineer and jack up the points accordingly?

BlazeXI
30-10-2006, 06:57
I have a question about how engineers work. I know that Master Engineers are characters, but if you just want to add a plain old Engineer to an artillery unit, do you just say that one of the crew is an engineer and jack up the points accordingly?

As the Army Book states:

"You may add an Engineer equiped with light armour and hand weapon, who acts as a unit Champion in all respects at +15 points"

So effectively he becomes a 4th crewman.

This option is only valid to traditional Warhammer warmachines like Cannons, Bolt throwers (2 BT in a battery = buy 2 Engineers) and Stone (Grudge)Throwers.

Machines unique to Dwarfs, like Flame Cannon and Organ Gun do not have that option.

Atzcapotzalco
30-10-2006, 08:52
One more point about bolt throwers-as well as being cheap and fairly reliable, they also have no chance of exploding. While lacking quite the same destructive power of their rivals they are definitely worth at least considering.

George
30-10-2006, 16:08
So maybe it would be wise to go two bolt throwers instead of a cannon, and maybe nix the organ gun to throw a couple of thanes into the army, and maybe give shields to all the close combat units?

BlazeXI
31-10-2006, 10:23
So maybe it would be wise to go two bolt throwers instead of a cannon, and maybe nix the organ gun to throw a couple of thanes into the army, and maybe give shields to all the close combat units?

My suggestions have been made on what you have (BFSP and 2 Battalions). I would give shields to those units that have hand weapons. If you arm a warrior unit with doublehanded weapons the shields are only useful when you approach your enemies shooting line.
As Dwarfs more often wait for the enemy and shoot at them the shooty regiments benefit grately from hand weapon&shield combination (4+ save in hand-to-hand combat, without the shield it is only 6+).

Melchor
31-10-2006, 10:30
So the Engineer is an addition to the crew? Making it 4 strong right? Good to know, I thought it was an upgrade. Looking at the entry it seems you're right.

George
31-10-2006, 13:18
Yeah, I wasn't sure about this either, whether it was a simple addition or an upgrade like making one of your warriors a veteran.

Latro
31-10-2006, 13:28
Which is another reason why Bolt Throwers are a pretty good deal ... having an extra crew member makes the unit almost immune to all shooting and magic missiles: killing fout T4 models after randomising is very hard to do.

George
31-10-2006, 16:30
Okay guys, thanks for all the advice on artillery and units. Can we talk about characters now? I have a couple of thanes from the BfSP sets (traded a friend my gobbos for his dwarves) and a couple of dragon slayers. Right now I'm trying to figure out a good 1k army that can act as a core to add to for larger-point armies, and so far I'm thinking a unit of warriors, another unit of warriors (or maybe longbeards?), two units of thunderers (or maybe one of thunderers and one of quarrellers?), and at the very least two bolt throwers for artillery. What do you guys recommend for characters? And maybe you guys could tell me a little bit about what runes you like to use for your characters and units and why?

BlazeXI
01-11-2006, 11:11
What do you guys recommend for characters? And maybe you guys could tell me a little bit about what runes you like to use for your characters and units and why?

In a 1000 point army you are allowed only up to 3 helo level characters. As Dwarfs are more magic resistant than other armies I would not consider a runesmith. I take usually a Lord, BSB and maybe a Dragon Slayer in 2000 points battles. So in a 1000 point battle a Thane as General and maybe and a BSB should be enough. You need more Dwarfs, and their characters are pricey!

The good thing in a 1000 points game is that you can anticipate that you will not see Ueber Characters in your opponents army.

A thane is allowed 75 points for runic items. Your plastic thane has a shield (so Marster Rune of Gromril = 1+ save - is out of question - waste of points for shield). I'd go for Rune of resistance (25p reroll failed armour saves) and rune of stone (5p +1 armour save). For 30p you get a character with 2+ armour save from shooting (4+ gromril armour, +1 shield, +1 rune of stone) and a 1+ in hand-to-hand (hand weapon and shield combo). On top of that you get a reroll of a failed save:evilgrin:.
That leves you with 45 points for your Magic Weapon. +1A (25p rune of fury) and +1S (20p rune of cleaving) and you have a nice general for a 142 points.

Melchor
01-11-2006, 12:08
I think that if you give him any runes on his weapons, he loses the +1 bonus for hand weapon/shield in close combat. As his weapon becomes a magic weapon and therefore loses any bonuses it would normally have.
But that can easily be countered by adding another Rune of Stone for another dirt cheap 5 points.

I like that Thane configurationby the way, it's hitty and can take some punishment in return as well. I'll keep that in mind.

How about including a Dragonslayer as well? Don't give him any Runes (as he'll lose the Slayer Axes if you do), and send him out to tie up enemy units. Make him fight challenges if you can and you'll tie the enemy up nicely.

I've heard that a BSB is pretty much compulsory for dwarves, as you must be able to receive charges without running away.
I plan on giving mine a Master Rune of Gromril for a 1+ save. You might want to give him some nice choppy runes as well, but that drives up the cost.

BlazeXI
01-11-2006, 12:23
I think that if you give him any runes on his weapons, he loses the +1 bonus for hand weapon/shield in close combat. As his weapon becomes a magic weapon and therefore loses any bonuses it would normally have.

Yeah, i forgot about it. Nevertherelss, a roll of 1 always fails, so not a big problem then.



But that can easily be countered by adding another Rune of Stone for another dirt cheap 5 points.

No, as multiples of this rune have no further effect. I beleive it is a change to the previous Dwarf Army Book



How about including a Dragonslayer as well? Don't give him any Runes (as he'll lose the Slayer Axes if you do), and send him out to tie up enemy units. Make him fight challenges if you can and you'll tie the enemy up nicely.
Yes indeed.



I've heard that a BSB is pretty much compulsory for dwarves, as you must be able to receive charges without running away.
I plan on giving mine a Master Rune of Gromril for a 1+ save. You might want to give him some nice choppy runes as well, but that drives up the cost.

You may either equip him as that or with all runes being inscribed on the banner. There is this splendid rune of guarding for 30p that gives you a 5+ ward save. Remember you have a 4+ save for Gromril armour on top of that.

Nevertheless, remember that Dwarf characters are very expensive and you are limited to 1000 points for your army. So if you fully kit out the General (as I did) and you proceed with fully kiting out the BSB (165 points or more if you choose a pricey banner combo) You are left with less than 700 points and only 2 minis...
For such a low points game I would not go for elite infantry. Just warriors, crossbowmen, thunderers, bolt throwers and a cannon (something to hit hard).

Latro
01-11-2006, 14:04
Okay guys, thanks for all the advice on artillery and units. Can we talk about characters now? I have a couple of thanes from the BfSP sets (traded a friend my gobbos for his dwarves) and a couple of dragon slayers. Right now I'm trying to figure out a good 1k army that can act as a core to add to for larger-point armies, and so far I'm thinking a unit of warriors, another unit of warriors (or maybe longbeards?), two units of thunderers (or maybe one of thunderers and one of quarrellers?), and at the very least two bolt throwers for artillery. What do you guys recommend for characters? And maybe you guys could tell me a little bit about what runes you like to use for your characters and units and why?

I tried an army very close to what you're describing and it worked very well for me:

Thane (Great Weapon, shield, Rune of Stone)
Thane BSB (Rune of Stone)
Dragonslayer

2x 19 Dwarf Warriors (Standard, Musician)
2x 10 Thunderers
2x Bolt Thrower (Engineer)

There's plenty of things you can change according to taste, but I think the overall set-up of cheap characters, 2 combat units, 2 missile units, warmachine(s) is a very effective one.

Atzcapotzalco
02-11-2006, 20:27
Overall I'd say it's pretty hard to go wrong with dwarf heroes, espescially without enemy lords in play.
With their combat stats and gromril armour a thane can get by pretty well with just a rune of stone and shield or great weapon, and the battle standard bearer can fight just as well as any other thane. If equipped with heavier runic equipment, they can become truly deadly, and one of your best sources of genuine heavy punch in combat.
Dragon slayers are a good cheap lone fighting hero-their slayer abilities make up for their inability to wear armour or join a unit. Unlike a thane, I'd say it's rarely worth getting them a runic weapon, since only an expensive one is much better than their slayer axes.
The only doubtful option would be the runesmith, who sacrifices a lot of a thane's fighting ability for the minor bonus of a single dispel dice-in my opinion rarely worth taking at all, and definitely not in 1000 points where your extra dispel dice should be sufficient.

George
03-11-2006, 16:13
Thanks for all the advise, guys! Once I get all my dwarves put together I'm going to try the 2x warrors, 2x thunderers, 2x bolt throwers with a couple of thanes and a dragon slayer and see how it goes. My friend's just starting Orcs and Goblins, so we should have some fun battles.

Latro, I read your battle report thread and thought it was fun to read. I think I learned a bit about how to handle my dwarves too. Do you guys have any general advice for how to handle my new army?

smokingmonkee
03-11-2006, 17:49
I've also landed a bunch of dwarves. I'm wondering what your opininons are on Master Engineers?

Dr.Diemer
04-11-2006, 10:25
A grudge thrower with a Rune of accuracy (reroll scatter dice = 55% chance of "Hit") and a Rune of penetrating (+1 strength making it S5), seems very good on paper but how is it in real game/life?

I've noticed that none of you has recommended grudgethrowers.

snurl
04-11-2006, 10:42
Grudgethrowers are a cool, characterful artillery piece for a Dwarf Army.
That being said, I think that they are a bit too inaccurate to be a first choice, especially in a less than 2000 point army. Dwarf troops are expensive and few, and you don't have points to waste on weapons that miss more often than they hit.(personal experience)

I like Cannons a lot, an organ gun is very good against skirmishers, but for the cost versus results a bolt thrower is the way to go. Add an engineer and a rune of penetrating and you have a very powerful artillery piece.

A Grudgethrower is just a stone thrower. It would have been cool to have a rule like "if you fire a stone with a grudge against ______, and it hits, then it does an extra D6 wounds" or something similar.

Latro
04-11-2006, 17:04
Latro, I read your battle report thread and thought it was fun to read. I think I learned a bit about how to handle my dwarves too. Do you guys have any general advice for how to handle my new army?

Thanks! :)

Most important thing for a succesful Dwarf army: ... deployment.

The moment you see your opponent's army, you should start planning your strategy to take him down ... and it better be a good plan because the typical Dwarf army doesn't get the chance to make drastic changes during the battle itself (3 inch movement you know :( ).

Most important things to remember during deployment:

- field of fire, for missile units and warmachines obviously
- angle, to divert and delay enemies after a succesful charge (keep this in mind also when deploying missile units)
- mutual support, especially when using flee-reactions

... in short, because of your lack of options when it comes to re-deploying during the battles, your units need to be in the correct place for the entire battle (so you basicly need to plan the entire battle ahead when deploying).

The Thnikkaman
05-11-2006, 00:04
dr diemar - a grudge thrower with a rune of accuracy is an excellent warmachine. The part which is most liable to stuff up is the player's guesses. This is something that you get better at as you play more games. Mine are either spot on or waaaaay short. But believe me - no war machine is better at destroying elite infantry blocks in one go.

except perhaps a grudge thrower with a rune of accuracy AND penetration. Kill those weak beardless elves and hu-mans on 2+. And big cavalry blocks too. None of this cavalry with ranks nonsense.

Having said that, the other war machine i don't leave without is the organ gun, purely for the autohits and potential 10 s5 armor piercing shots. although its almost always 2 or 4...

I've recently been trying out a cannon with a rune of forging (seems an obligatory rune for it). I have to say its been working wonders, most usefully when deployed near a side edge of the table for the enfilading shots. In one game it destroyed two chariots in one shot, and in another it shot at a giant, overshot and killed the night goblin shaman loitering near it. I was hoping to get the giant, shaman and a bolt thrower in that one shot, but I'll take it :D.

George
13-11-2006, 00:59
Here's a question: Is it better to give warriors great weapons, or give them hand weapons and shields?

Atzcapotzalco
13-11-2006, 10:25
Hand weapon and shield. A great weapon with the accompanying 5+ save is just asking for trouble.

The Thnikkaman
13-11-2006, 10:40
I personally give them both. Sure it's expensive, but it's also very flexible. I've found my dwarves get charges off more than i originally thought, and for those times great weapons are the go. When being charged, however, depending on the opponent, it's a different story.

Although a large number of players say dwarves are about denying kills to the enemy and beating through static combat res, you wont outnumber and outrank all opponents. In the end it often comes to the unit gaining some kills to break the opposition. Against any decently armoured unit, a normal dwarf's S3 isnt going to cut it. Plus you can't rely on your characters to do the killing, especially if its in a challenge with a tooled up enemy character.

virre
13-11-2006, 20:04
I have recently seen alot of terror and fearcausing units in small games because of that walking death spell and for dwarf units autobreak isnt nice (atleast not when your ironbreaker unit whit a bsb and a lord gets charged by those damn riders of dark elves). Well as i wasnt preparde for this my expensive unit broke and got run down.
So I would say that the rune courage (standard, immune to fear and terror) is a great pick when you battle people whit access to the death and/or shadow lore.
Well this, I guess, is only importand if you got an expensive unit whit a lord in :). /virre

Dragonknight31
21-11-2006, 21:03
I basically did the same thing you did for my 2000 pt Dwarf army with the two battalions. I run 2 5x5 units of Great Weapons and Hand weap&Sheild. Two units of 16 Thunderers (they rock) A unit of Slayers. Anvil of Doom(Fun Fun); Slayer hero (rune of swiftness is a must - he can hold up an entire unit himself for the whole game); Canon; Organ Gun; Grudge Thrower

This a a fun army for me.