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rundle44
27-10-2006, 10:33
i came across this idea the other day
when you choose magic items for saurus scar vet what happens if you pick
Bane head, piranha blade
because if you fight the enemy character that you choose with bane head any wounds caused would be doubled but the efects of the piranha blade are similar so does that mean the wound is doubled twice
ie 1 wound =4 wounds
any ideas as to whether this will work?

eldrak
27-10-2006, 10:57
I don't know what these specific items say but normally you double base value only, ie 1 wound => 3 wounds.

T10
27-10-2006, 11:22
The term used is "double" (meaning "x2"), not "an additional" (meaning "+1").

Last time I checked, 1 Wound x 2 x 2 = 4 Wounds.

-T10

eldrak
29-10-2006, 00:37
Well it was in some FAQ in 5th ed i think regarding Frenzy and some other source of doubling attacks that you doubled before adding other modifiers (double base value once for frenzy and once from other source would give x3 in that case). Might be obsolete now so doubling twice should indeed be x4 now.

inq.serge
29-10-2006, 11:27
It is 4 wounds.

It is a famous combo that has been known since the book was released, my first scar vet had that combo. He was a valten slayer. (also an eltarion slayer)

It is a good combo for general slayers, but if you fight daemons, use blade of reality with bane head instead.

(Liz player:"Your deamon gen. gets a wound, with no ward save, and that wound is multiplied into 4"
Daemon player:" :cries: "

Flame
29-10-2006, 11:57
Well it was in some FAQ in 5th ed i think regarding Frenzy and some other source of doubling attacks that you doubled before adding other modifiers (double base value once for frenzy and once from other source would give x3 in that case). Might be obsolete now so doubling twice should indeed be x4 now.


Your using a FAQ from about 8 years, and 2 game editions ago as a point of reference to back up you argument? :wtf:

Nanozzo
29-10-2006, 16:24
Yes it's real 4 wounds!
But i prefer on my oldblood high mobility with totem of jaguar warrior with piranha blade and aura of quetzl and same sacred hosts

Hivemind
28-01-2007, 23:37
Sorry.....people can say whatever they want the combo does 3 wounds for every one not 4.....

T10
29-01-2007, 07:49
Dungeons and Dragons handle multiple "double", "triple" etc. as Hivemind suggests:

x2, x3 and x4 becomes x2 plus x2 (x3-1) plus x3 (x4-1): x7.

It's reasonable for a game balance perspective but breaks with established mathematics.

-T10

Flame
29-01-2007, 08:41
Sorry.....people can say whatever they want the combo does 3 wounds for every one not 4.....

Based on what exactly?

Trying doing some basic not-even GCSE level maths

1*2*2= 4.

NOT 3.

DeathlessDraich
29-01-2007, 12:43
Unsaved wounds are doubled in each case.

I see it as 4 = 1X2 +1X2 - each item doubles the unsaved wound/s separately and the total gives the final number of wounds - identical mathematically to 2X2 but sounds better.

ffarsight
29-01-2007, 13:18
Sorry.....people can say whatever they want the combo does 3 wounds for every one not 4.....

Iīm sorry but i really donīt see how could that be, but iīve been told something like that about 3 wounds... just donīt know in what situation.

eldrak
29-01-2007, 16:30
Other stuff is said to modify base values (like Bears anger) even if it's not specifically stated.

Von Wibble
29-01-2007, 17:03
Based on what exactly?

Trying doing some basic not-even GCSE level maths

1*2*2= 4.

NOT 3.

I'm a maths teacher. This is GCSE maths- and harder than some questions on the exam. And quite difficult for some of my pupils;)

I have to agree with x4 though. I believethere used to be a rule that never allowed you to stack double so if you had more than 1 multiplier you took teh highest (eg if you could double wounds from 1 source and triple from another you got x3 not x6). But that isn't the case now so a double applied twice is a x4.

Atrahasis
29-01-2007, 17:18
I'm a maths teacher. This is GCSE maths- and harder than some questions on the exam. And quite difficult for some of my pupils;) Totally off-topic I know, but I can remember doing this at primary school. Just because its on a GCSE exam doesn't mean it is GCSE level. I'm pretty sure there's addition and subtraction on the GCSE paper as well.

Jester007
30-01-2007, 06:55
GW did an FAQ on this little combo, and they showed some interesting (and what I think to be made up) mathematics. As much as I would like to say it would be 4 wounds (since I play Lizardmen myself), it is not true. Anyone who said it is 3 wounds gets a cookie. Besides, there are not that many model that have more than 3 wounds on their profile. You're killing an Ogre/Troll/Kroxigor etc with each hit and getting the combat res for each wound. That's pretty good in my book, so stop complaining about it.

Got Squig?

T10
30-01-2007, 07:59
Got Faq?

-T10

Gn0b
30-01-2007, 20:50
as gay and...lizardist as it sounds, unless i am mistaken it does only cause 3 wounds.
Observe this very messed up math:

1*2(piranha blade) = 2 = 1(initial wounds caused) + 1(number of wounds due to doubling)

now add in the effects of the bane head

1(the normal amount of wounds)*2(Bane head) = 2 = 1(initial wounds caused) + 1(number of wounds due to doubling).

now add that up: 1(wounds caused naturaly) + 1(wounds caused by piranha double) +1(wounds caused by Bane head doubling) = 3(wounds total)

that is honestly why they say it causes three wounds, I feel your sorrow, only an instant kill to any model I can field in my entire frickin Gnoblar army. :eek: *twitch twitch*

But I due want to know, do those wounds carry? If some gnob fails his save does it kill 1 gnob or three?:confused:

T10
30-01-2007, 21:15
Though some effects may require a unit to lose a certain number of wounds (e.g. the banshee howl), excess wounds caused by "Attacks" and "Hits" do not carry over to other models. They are even discounted as far as combat resolution* is concerned.

-T10

*) Challenges are a special case. Read those rules.

DeathlessDraich
31-01-2007, 08:54
1*2(piranha blade) = 2 = 1(initial wounds caused) + 1(number of wounds due to doubling)

now add in the effects of the bane head

1(the normal amount of wounds)*2(Bane head) = 2 = 1(initial wounds caused) + 1(number of wounds due to doubling).

now add that up: 1(wounds caused naturaly) + 1(wounds caused by piranha double) +1(wounds caused by Bane head doubling) = 3(wounds total)

:

I understand how you arrived at 3.
You've made a distinction between 'Initial wounds or natural wounds' and 'doubled wounds'.

This is not a distinction mentioned in the rules. It states "unsaved wounds are doubled" for the magical items above.
Therefore unsaved wounds are doubled and then the doubled wounds are final wounds.

If one of the magic item is used:

Wounds = 1 wound X2
and not as you suggested

1 wound caused naturally + 1 wound caused by doubling

If 2 items are used,
The addition would be:

wounds caused by piranha doubled + wounds caused by Bane head doubled

Grymlok
31-01-2007, 09:03
I've had this discussion on more than one occasion. I have just read the descriptions of both items, and I'm 100% sure that it's 4 wounds. As this is only really useful against a single character with a high number of wounds, who is proably far too manouverable on his steed/monster to be worried about a M4 saurus (no Jaguar charm for this scar-vet), I don't see it as a problem.

Of course, if the player is sneaky and "nominates" the enemy character only in his head, then this may be a problem. If you are playing aginst a scar-vet with the bane head, you should be told which one of your characters has been nominated at the start, so you know to avoid the scar-vet if you wish.

Noldo
31-01-2007, 09:18
I would actually count the nomination of bane head target similar to having assasin or fanatics inside your unit. I mean something that you do not need to tell to your opponent, but something that must be written down somewhere before the game starts, so that the choice can be verified afterwards.

Intresting question is whether you would need to reveal the target of bane head if you were forced to reaveal having bane head (certain spells and magic items that reveal magic items in the unit).

Atrahasis
31-01-2007, 10:47
"Nominate" is certainly not a secret act.

eldrak
31-01-2007, 12:34
If you want to read the arguments over and over again:

http://z1.invisionfree.com/forums/Thee_Forsaken_One/index.php?showtopic=9705

Gn0b
31-01-2007, 20:10
Lol!!! He Said Exactly What I Said!!!