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Fin-man
27-10-2006, 16:47
This came up in a game I played last weekend. My TK Hierophant (on foot) was standing directly behind a unit of 4 Ushabti. The dwarf player had 10 crossbowmen on a hill, and wanted to fire at my Hierophant – I naturally told him he was not a target due to the fact that you couldn’t see him from the model’s point of view. (At all – the Ushabti are much bigger than the Hierophant.)

After the game, I re-read the shooting and LOS sections, and it could be read that units on hills can see over any other interposing models. However, this just doesn’t seem correct, given the situation. (After all, hills are to gain a vantage point - not to provide X-Ray vision.)

Has anyone else run into this issue? How do you play it? I’d appreciate your insight.

Fin-man

intellectawe
27-10-2006, 16:50
I think you might be used to 40k rules.

A unit on a hill can see over any unit not on a hill. period. This is said in teh shooting rules for units firing from hills. So yes, your HK can be shot at in this example.

Selsaral
27-10-2006, 17:20
Yes our group found the conflict between the rules and actual LOS quite confusing. But it's true; hills give you a superior vantage. Further, large targets can always be shot at, and always have LOS to other models regardless of invervening models (even other large targets!). Only pre-agreed-upon terrain could block LOS to large targets (like huge walls, cliffs, etc). And for some reason, there's no difference between a human and an ogre for LOS purposes.

Atrahasis
27-10-2006, 17:23
Further, large targets can always be shot at, and always have LOS to other models regardless of invervening models (even other large targets!).

No. Large targets block LOS to other large targets as normal.

Gorbad Ironclaw
27-10-2006, 17:26
You don't use models eye view to see what troops block others.

You have 3 catagories of troops in Warhammer, and each block LoS to it's own, and smaller catagories.

Large Targets. Anything with the Large target rule

Normal Targets. Anything withought any special rule. That goes from tiny weedy goblins(and snotlings still?), to ogres and cavalry.

Small Targets. Anything with the small special rule. Pretty much exclusivly swarms.

And as mentioned, hills let you look over other units, even if they would normally be hidden behind someone else.

DarkTerror
27-10-2006, 17:38
I've heard of house rules looking from eye level of the model. It never hurts to modify the rules of such things if you think it needs to be changed.

Just remember that you changed it ;)

TheWarSmith
27-10-2006, 17:50
Basically being on a hill and being large are the same thing as far as LOS goes.

"tall things" like hills, large targets, etc. will always block LOS through them. So if you have a unit on a hill, and a hill between them and their would be target, the target is not in LOS.

Shaitan
30-10-2006, 08:25
Basically being on a hill and being large are the same thing as far as LOS goes.

"tall things" like hills, large targets, etc. will always block LOS through them. So if you have a unit on a hill, and a hill between them and their would be target, the target is not in LOS.

That's the way we play it here too. Our forests for example are said to be infinitely high so they block line of sight. Even if one of the models/units is one a hill. In the same manner, hills block line of sight.

Avian
30-10-2006, 08:36
I think your problem is that you think the scale of the terrain is the same as the scale of the minis - it is not. Terrain scale is about five time that of miniature scale, thus a hill is much higher compared to the units than it actually appears to be.

peteratwar
30-10-2006, 09:30
Make life easy for yourselves.

Agree visibility once terrain is laid. In case or argument roll a die.

T10
30-10-2006, 10:07
With 7th edition you are encouraged to keep characters either out of line of sight or within units. No more skulking around.

-T10

Alathir
30-10-2006, 10:20
My friends and I house rule that while you can see over other terrain from a hill, woods always block line of sight. After all... woods are exceptionally huge

T10
30-10-2006, 13:05
I think that's reasonable.

My house rules for terrain: Models on hills can see over units and obstacles on the ground, but cannot see through woods, buildings or hills. They cannot see through units and obstacles on hills.

-T10

mageith
30-10-2006, 13:23
I think your problem is that you think the scale of the terrain is the same as the scale of the minis - it is not. Terrain scale is about five time that of miniature scale, thus a hill is much higher compared to the units than it actually appears to be.
It doesn't make any difference what we think unless we specifically discuss it before the game or come to an agreement in the game.

Under "Line of Sight", page 8....

"LINE OF SIGHT... A model's line of sight may be blocked if there is anything between him and his intended target that obscures his view."

This is the general rule. Anything (everything) blocks line of sight unless that thing says differently.

"INTERPOSING SCENERY ... You must be prepared to used your own judgment within the following guidelines.
The easiest way of checking what a model can see is to get down over the table and take a model's eye view..."

So everything blocks line of sight, unless the model can actually see over it.

"HILLS & ELEVATED POSITIONS...Units on a hill can draw a line of sight from and elevated position and can always shoot (and be shot at) over models that are not on a hill."

So, models never block line of sight to a unit on a hill (with the probably exception of large targets). In addition, an extra rank of models on a hill can shoot. This answers the original question.

However "When other pieces of terrain, such as woods, buildings or other hills block line of sight, you should get down over the table and take a model's eye view..." (9)
This answers the title of the thread. Again, everything blocks line of sight, unless there is a specific exception to it. Model's eye view is a specific exception for terrain but not vs. other models.

So if players forget to discuss the terrain rules, the general rule for terrain is "model's eye view" (seeing over it, not through it). The general rules for seeing over models is much more specific.

Mage Ith

mageith
30-10-2006, 13:39
My friends and I house rule that while you can see over other terrain from a hill, woods always block line of sight. After all... woods are exceptionally huge
Infinitely tall trees as a house rule almost always comes up in these kinds of threads.

Actually Woods are quite specifically dealt with.

"Woods....For simplicity's sake, a degree of abstraction is required: Player's should always assume that the entire based fo the wood is coverd in trees as tall as the tallest tree on the base, and therefore the entire area marked by the wood's base blocks line of sight." (9)

Personally I like this rule better than infinitely tall trees. My trees are really rather tall, some as tall at 7 inches (42 feet high) but some as short as 3 inches (18 feet high) but most about 5 inches (30 feet high). Some large targets are taller.

When the single tree is placed it is simply the handiest tree in the tree box and we don't generally know what armies are playing on what table. In most cases, even 3 inch trees will block LOS to everything.

In addition, not all woods are forest primeval. Some are merely copses of woods. Who's to say? So if players don't say, then the rules are really clear enough for normal terrain, IMO.

kaldour
31-10-2006, 01:05
The important thing to remember is the distinction between 40k and WHFB. The concept of a 'hill' is just as representative as a 'forest' is in that every hill isn't uniformly 1.5" off the ground and flat. As a conceptual hill, it is really more of a gradient, much like a natural hill... this explains the ability of shooting troops to fire from two ranks... a feat that wouldn't be possible if actual line of sight were required.

I always play that the hill allows line of sight over non-large interposing units.

mageith
31-10-2006, 03:03
The important thing to remember is the distinction between 40k and WHFB.
[quote]
I don't play 40K

[QUOTE]
The concept of a 'hill' is just as representative as a 'forest' is in that every hill isn't uniformly 1.5" off the ground and flat.

My point is that its only conceptual vs. models but not vs. other terrain. Its actual vs. other terrain.



As a conceptual hill, it is really more of a gradient, much like a natural hill... this explains the ability of shooting troops to fire from two ranks... a feat that wouldn't be possible if actual line of sight were required.

I always play that the hill allows line of sight over non-large interposing units.
I agree over other models we use a conceptual rule. Over other terrain we use an actual model's eye view.

Mage Ith

Shaitan
31-10-2006, 15:45
In our gaming group we are having the following house rule about LoS to and from units on a hill:

Models that are on a hill and within 1" of the border (=where the slope begins) of that hill can see models on the ground. Vice versa, they can be seen by models on the ground.
Models that are on a hill and not within 1" of the border can only be seen by other units on a hill (the same or a different hill).

How do you guys handle this? Or do all units on a hill have LoS to units on the ground (and vice versa)?