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tangerinealtoid
27-10-2006, 17:39
The rules for the new skirmishing squig hoppers provide that rather than normal movement, they move 3d6 in a straight line during the compulsory movement phase, and enter combat if they hit an enemy unit. A description of these troops in the latest white dwarf made it sound like they ignore terrain and/or possibly friendly units as well, but the rules are very brief and open to interpretation. Anyone have the exact language handy, or any insight in how these guys work? The best use for them is being able to "hop" over intervening terrain like woods, a wall, or a hill, or a line of night gobbo archers, and enter combat that you normally wouldn't be able to due to lack of line of sight. But, can you actually do that? Thoughts, arguments?

Brother Maynard
27-10-2006, 17:51
I would think that the skirmishing aspect of them would imply that they would move through wooded terrain freely and around impassable terrain...just as all other skirmishers do.

woytek
27-10-2006, 17:55
You are indeed right about the lack of rules. I would say they would certainly bounce over units, and when they land into one they simply move trough.

NakedFisherman
27-10-2006, 17:59
Well, they can charge enemies they can't see due to terrain (for instance, if the enemy unit is 2" or more in woods), but since they move in a straight line they'll never really be able to charge enemies they can't see due to troops or impassable terrain in the way.

tangerinealtoid
27-10-2006, 18:12
Well, how about this scenario: you have an enemy unit behind two friendly archer lines, with a two inch gap like this (H= human, g=gobbo, S=squighopper)

. . . HHHHHHH
. . . HHHHHHH

gggggggg. . . .ggggggggg

. . . s s s s s s

. . . s s s s s s s

The squighoppers elect to move towards the humans, and roll sufficient movement to hit them. Is it assumed that the squigs all squirt through the gap if their movement is sufficient, or is there a problem since they must move "straight"?

woytek
27-10-2006, 18:27
I think they will just BOING! over the goblins and charge since there is nothing it says they will stop when you hit a friendly unit...

Festus
27-10-2006, 18:37
Hi

... they'll never really be able to charge enemies they can't see due to troops or impassable terrain in the way.
Why not? AFAI understand it, the SquigHoppers do not have to declare a charge as normal, but just bounce into something, very much akin to a Chaos Spawn...

Festus

tangerinealtoid
27-10-2006, 18:43
I think they will just BOING! over the goblins and charge since there is nothing it says they will stop when you hit a friendly unit...

I really think that that was the intention of this troop type, that they just bounce over anything and stop when they hit an enemy unit. (In prior versions, they could bounce through goblin units at the cost of a wounded gobbo for extra movement).

But, since skirmishers don't get rank bonuses, there's no reason not to do the conga line of squighoppers, in order to fit through gaps like the one I illustrated above.

Festus
27-10-2006, 19:09
Hi

You don't have to do any conga lining nonsense ;)

As skirmishers are moved one model at a time, each can choose its own path...

Festus

DeathlessDraich
27-10-2006, 19:13
1) Squig hoppers move pg26 : "in the Compulsory movement ... the player declares the direction...

1 direction only

2)"if it brings it into contact then it is treated as a declared charge and follows all the normal rules"

Since Squig hoppers are skirmishers then the charging rules for skirmishers apply:

A) Only those Squig hoppers within charge range will be in combat, not the whole unit.

I also think that the direction rule cannot be ignored and only the squig hoppers that can move in a straight line through their unit are permitted to charge.

Therefore in the case above a limited number will be in combat.

Atrahasis
27-10-2006, 19:20
Strictly reading the squig hopper rules, we must roll the 3d6 individually for each squig hopper, and since units move at the pace of the slowest model, move the unit accordingly.

That said, there is nothing in the Squig Hopper rules that suggests that they can hop over anything. Impassable terrain is still impassable, as are other units.

woytek
27-10-2006, 19:22
I also think that the direction rule cannot be ignored and only the squig hoppers that can move in a straight line through their unit are permitted to charge.

Therefore in the case above a limited number will be in combat.

This is not true since they are skirmishers, although the unit moves in one line, the models do not. Especially since hoppers bounce they can easily bounce through units like they do with terrain. Even fleeing units can move through own units.

Latro
27-10-2006, 19:42
Is this "bouncing" through units anywhere in the rules or is it just an interpretation?

tangerinealtoid
27-10-2006, 20:44
Is this "bouncing" through units anywhere in the rules or is it just an interpretation?

It appeared in prior versions, but the rules in the latest codex just say they move 3d6 in a straight line and stop when they hit an enemy unit.

So, to sum up the discussion above, the question that remains is what happens when they hit a friendly unit or impassible terrain: move over it or stop?:confused:

Is there any rule that other skirmishing units can move "through" friendly units? I've never seen such a rule.

Latro
28-10-2006, 07:13
It appeared in prior versions, but the rules in the latest codex just say they move 3d6 in a straight line and stop when they hit an enemy unit.

So, to sum up the discussion above, the question that remains is what happens when they hit a friendly unit or impassible terrain: move over it or stop?:confused:

Is there any rule that other skirmishing units can move "through" friendly units? I've never seen such a rule.

If there's nothing further on it in the rules they will simply follow all the normal rules for moving when it comes to impassable terrain, friendly units in the way and such.

Avian
28-10-2006, 11:13
Indeed. In the current rules, Squigs are a skirmishing unit and do not have any kind of rule that would let them move over / through friendly units. Since there is no normal rule to let units move through friendly units and the Squigs don't have it either, Squigs cannot bounce over friendly units.

Similarly, they have no rule that would let them treat impassable terrain as anything other than impassable.

woytek
28-10-2006, 11:28
Although I agree there is no actual rule for them, let me quote:


Squig hoppers are moved during the compulsory part of the player's movement fase and always travel 3D6" in a straight line - the player declares the direction of movement before rolling.

They always travel 3D6" no matter what....

Atrahasis
28-10-2006, 11:42
They don't always travel 3d6" at all.

If they reach an enemy unit, they move less.

Another unfortunate example of meaningless text mixed into the rules.

Avian
28-10-2006, 11:53
Another unfortunate example of meaningless text mixed into the rules.
Quite so.

Sadly this is what happens when GW decides to introduce several new units, radically alter others and then cut the amount of space devoted to rules in the army book by a third, compared to the previous one.
Hrmf!
:mad:

woytek
28-10-2006, 13:13
They don't always travel 3d6" at all.

If they reach an enemy unit, they move less.

Another unfortunate example of meaningless text mixed into the rules.

No you are wrong, I know that they stop if they move over/hit an enemy unit, but that's a rule. They always move 3D6" except when they hit an enemy. That means that they will simply move over your own troops because they always move 3D6"... :D

Tutore
28-10-2006, 13:36
Avian's interpretation is that which follows strictly the armybook's rules, and so is my interpretation.

woytek
28-10-2006, 14:21
Indeed. In the current rules, Squigs are a skirmishing unit and do not have any kind of rule that would let them move over / through friendly units. Since there is no normal rule to let units move through friendly units and the Squigs don't have it either, Squigs cannot bounce over friendly units.

Similarly, they have no rule that would let them treat impassable terrain as anything other than impassable.

Then where do you leave the remaining movement, since they have to move it?

Festus
28-10-2006, 16:28
Hi

They do it as the Chaos Spawn: If they cannot move it all, they won't. Simple.

Festus

NakedFisherman
28-10-2006, 17:40
Why not? AFAI understand it, the SquigHoppers do not have to declare a charge as normal, but just bounce into something, very much akin to a Chaos Spawn...

They need to move in a straight line.


That means that they will simply move over your own troops because they always move 3D6"... :D

They still follow other rules.

Gekiganger
28-10-2006, 17:49
No you are wrong, I know that they stop if they move over/hit an enemy unit, but that's a rule. They always move 3D6" except when they hit an enemy. That means that they will simply move over your own troops because they always move 3D6"... :D

You do know the start of your sentence makes the ending null, right? :eyebrows:

woytek
28-10-2006, 18:16
Festus you are wrong, they always move..

Festus
28-10-2006, 19:06
Hi

Festus you are wrong, they always move..
Whatever you say...

10th clancannach rangers
28-10-2006, 23:17
where does it say they can jump over units? the squig hoppers move in a straight line as far as possible up to 3d6 but stop if they hit a unit or piece of impassible terrain

mageith
29-10-2006, 00:45
Strictly reading the squig hopper rules, we must roll the 3d6 individually for each squig hopper, and since units move at the pace of the slowest model, move the unit accordingly.

I don't see where the rules say that. I don't see where the rules actually say anything clearly. "Sguig Hoppers are moved..." This could mean indicate direction, roll and move individually or this could mean roll for the whole unit and all go the same direction.

The skirmisher rules simply indicate skirmishers are moved individually but the distance and direction are left up to the player (or in the case of SH, to the dice.)

To me it sounds like SH movement would result, if there was nothing in the way, with the new location of the SH looking exactly like the old location of the SH except 3d6 inches away.

I suppose if they did charge, then each SH could then change direction in order to rank up though the rules don't actually say that.

Skirmisher rules are sparse and Squig Hopper rules are sparser.

Anybody actually play with them? How were they moved?

I agree that S.H. as written can't actually jump over other units or impassable terrain.

Atrahasis
29-10-2006, 02:42
I don't see where the rules say that.

The profile for squig hoppers shows "M" as 3D6. Models have profiles, not units, so each individual model has a Movement of 3d6". Units move at the pace of the slowest model.

mageith
29-10-2006, 03:15
The profile for squig hoppers shows "M" as 3D6. Models have profiles, not units, so each individual model has a Movement of 3d6". Units move at the pace of the slowest model.
Again "Squig hoppers are moved..."

Is this read 'Each individual Squig hopper is moved..."
Or 'The Squig hopper unit is moved...."

is "...the player declares the direction of movement before rolling."

Is this read '...the player declares the direction of each individual squig hopper before rolling...'
or '...the player declares the direction of the Squig hopper unit before rolling..."

I really don't know. From the comments it appears players are moving each squig hopper separately and in its own separate direction.

When I read it I assumed it was one direction and one dice roll. In fact, that's how we played it in our last game.

If Squig Hoppers are diced for and moved individually how can they keep unit cohesiveness? Skirmishers are supposed to be within 1 inch of another member of their unit when their movement is done.

On the other hand, if the unit is diced for and moved indivdually in the same direction how can they rank up in case of a charge?

What if one squig reaches a target but no other one does. Do we have a conga line for the charge?

That's why I asked how folks are actually playing them, if they are.

I guess we all agree the rules are too sparse?

NakedFisherman
29-10-2006, 07:01
The profile for squig hoppers shows "M" as 3D6. Models have profiles, not units, so each individual model has a Movement of 3d6". Units move at the pace of the slowest model.

Units move, not models.

DeathlessDraich
29-10-2006, 09:52
You're right Mageith. The rules you quoted are sufficient to deduce they move as a unit:
The rules state there is only 1 ("a direction") chosen and this is followed by the "squig hoppers move" (plural) and the problem of skirmishers being more than 1" away clinches it.

Furthermore allowing individual direction movement will cause further problems when multiple units are charged with a multitude of reactions - 1 squig hopper is in combat, 1 fails a charge, one outruns a fleeing charge response etc. Future turns will then cause 'some' squig hoppers to move some to be still in combat, some pursuing etc while being in the same unit! - utter chaos!



I suppose if they did charge, then each SH could then change direction in order to rank up though the rules don't actually say that.


The rules do say treat the SH charge as "normal" i.e. skirmishers rules for charging apply. Therefore the SHs within charge distance must rank up in front etc. Again supporting the above unidirectional view.

Atrahasis
29-10-2006, 10:19
Units move, not models.

The unit moves at the pace of the slowest model in the unit. Units move, yes, but models (or rather their profiles) determine how far that movement can be.

If one model in the unit has a movement of 5 and the rest has a movement of 20, you can still only move the unit 5".

Latro
29-10-2006, 10:41
The unit moves at the pace of the slowest model in the unit. Units move, yes, but models (or rather their profiles) determine how far that movement can be.

If one model in the unit has a movement of 5 and the rest has a movement of 20, you can still only move the unit 5".

It would be a good point if the rules say you actually have to roll for all individual models ... if it doesn't, then it's just an interpretation.

I see it like this:

- Like you said, the model with the lowest movement value determines the speed of the unit ... and the lowest value is 3d6.

- So the unit moves at speed 3d6 ... now role the dice to see how many inch that actually is.

- Move the unit.

Just as valid as your interpretation I think. I'm following the rules as written, because it simply doesn't say you have to roll for all models individually. The advantage if this method is abviously that the unit can actually move in a "normal-ish" fashion and function like a "regular-ish" skirmishing unit.

... and yes, the rules could have been clearer (but common sense goes a long way)

WLBjork
29-10-2006, 11:14
I go with one roll for the unit, on the grounds that making 5+ rolls is time consuming and distracts from the game. Hence IMO it is only the one roll for the unit.

Tutore
29-10-2006, 12:24
If someone asks for it, I'm sure GW would reply that you need to roll 3d6 for the whole unit, not for every model. It's a matter of good sense.

blurred
29-10-2006, 14:04
*Sigh* Of course its just one roll for the whole unit. Anyone who thinks that each model should be moved separately is just deliberately trying to find holes from the rules.


... and yes, the rules could have been clearer (but common sense goes a long way)

Exactly.

woytek
29-10-2006, 14:22
But this still doesn't solve them for hopping over terrain or not. The rules very clearly state they always move 3D6 and therefore you can't say "hey I rolled 18", let's move only 12."

NakedFisherman
29-10-2006, 14:24
The unit moves at the pace of the slowest model in the unit. Units move, yes, but models (or rather their profiles) determine how far that movement can be.

If one model in the unit has a movement of 5 and the rest has a movement of 20, you can still only move the unit 5".

With that in mind, there is nothing that says to roll for each Squig Hopper individually. This is back to the issue of plural noun ambiguity in English. If you choose to see this ambiguity as a way to exploit the rules, then by all means, please inform your oppnent of your intentins beforehand. If you choose to bring this up on an Internet forum for the sole sake of causing an argument, then please simply refrain.


The profile for squig hoppers shows "M" as 3D6. Models have profiles, not units, so each individual model has a Movement of 3d6". Units move at the pace of the slowest model.

This does not exclude the very real possibility that each model takes the same movement rolled. The rules for Squig Hoppers state how they move, and the only ambiguity is due to a collective noun. Extrapolating these rules from non-contextual restrictions given by the rulebook is not following their permission given right in the Orcs and Goblins army book.

Latro
29-10-2006, 14:29
But this still doesn't solve them for hopping over terrain or not. The rules very clearly state they always move 3D6 and therefore you can't say "hey I rolled 18", let's move only 12."

... same as units gone stupid, pursueing after combat: they stop when they can't go any further.

mageith
29-10-2006, 14:40
But this still doesn't solve them for hopping over terrain or not. The rules very clearly state they always move 3D6 and therefore you can't say "hey I rolled 18", let's move only 12."
Alas the name of the rule, the picture on page 26, and the fluff as well as prior edition play would all indicate that the Sguig Hopper hops.

However the sparse rules indicate just the opposite. In addition, there's no mechanism to determine what happens when a squig bounces on other stuff along the way.

Squigs have evolved into something new and its not clear exactly what. They appear to kinder and gentler.

woytek
29-10-2006, 17:03
Alas the name of the rule, the picture on page 26, and the fluff as well as prior edition play would all indicate that the Sguig Hopper hops.

However the sparse rules indicate just the opposite. In addition, there's no mechanism to determine what happens when a squig bounces on other stuff along the way.

Squigs have evolved into something new and its not clear exactly what. They appear to kinder and gentler.

Yes that's true and exactly my point of view. The rule says: "...and always move a full 3D6" in a straight line." So in my eyes saying that they simply stop when they hit something doesn't comply with the one rule given and is thus, not an option.

metro_gnome
29-10-2006, 17:15
Yes that's true and exactly my point of view.
and thankfully that is all it is... well except misguided...

Festus
29-10-2006, 17:19
Hi

and thankfully that is all it is... well except misguided...
As much as you think that woytek is wrong (and I do think so myself), this won't allow you to attack him like this. :(

His point is strong as far as the letter of the rule goes. Not that this means that I agree with him, far from it...

metro_gnome
29-10-2006, 17:46
um... so how exactly is it different than chaos spawn movement?

do you believe that chaos spawn can now move through friendly units because in a previous and irrelevant edition squig hoppers were described as jumping?:wtf:

woytek
29-10-2006, 18:58
um... so how exactly is it different than chaos spawn movement?

do you believe that chaos spawn can now move through friendly units because in a previous and irrelevant edition squig hoppers were described as jumping?:wtf:

For your information, squig hoppers are not chaos spawn, the only thing they have in common is random movement and that's all.

Ofcourse we will have different opinions on these cases, and from there I conclude that the writer of the O&G book didn't quite succeed, hmm? The rules are vague, some rules are missing and that makes us fight over this.

Because the writer put the word 'always' in the sentence, I will accept any explanations where it is assumed hoppers move over terrain (except ofcourse impassable). And you have to agree, squig hopper can easily been seen leaping through the air, bouncing over rocks and through forest. The beasts even live in the mountains, they're almost trained to move through difficult terrain...

Any idea of when there will be a FAQ?

metro_gnome
29-10-2006, 19:32
For your information, squig hoppers are not chaos spawn, the only thing they have in common is random movement and that's all.
and that happens to be what we are discussing... :rolleyes:

Chaos Spawns set the precedent for this type of movement... either them or pump wagons...
Pump wagons specify what happens when the unit comes into contact with a friendly unit...
and tho i believe this is what should happen with squig hoppers... they do not specify so it does not...
Chaos spawns do not specify what happens when they run into a friendly unit...
so they follow the normal unit rules when this occurs... they stop...
as it is unspecified what happens to squig hoppers they follow the precedent layed down by spawn... they stop...

what according to your "logic" happens should their movement leave them in the middle of a friendly unit?


Any idea of when there will be a FAQ?
dunno...
i just hope that these interesting rules for squigs dont get nerfed to hell because some people choose to twist them beyond all reason...

Latro
29-10-2006, 19:47
Because the writer put the word 'always' in the sentence, I will accept any explanations where it is assumed hoppers move over terrain (except ofcourse impassable). And you have to agree, squig hopper can easily been seen leaping through the air, bouncing over rocks and through forest. The beasts even live in the mountains, they're almost trained to move through difficult terrain...


So you don't think that the writer would make the effort to actually describe these totally new rules when he wants a unit to do things that no other unit can do and goes against the regular movement rules from the rulebook ... he probably thought using the word "always" would solve everything, right?

You can quote fluff all day long at me, but that doesn't make for a strong case. If you want to override the basic rules from the rulebook, you'll need to have an actual rule in the armybook to override it with ... not just one word that according to fluff should probably mean something.

woytek
29-10-2006, 19:48
and that happens to be what we are discussing... :rolleyes:
No, not really

Chaos Spawns set the precedent for this type of movement... either them or pump wagons...
Pump wagons specify what happens when the unit comes into contact with a friendly unit...
and tho i believe this is what should happen with squig hoppers... they do not specify so it does not...
Chaos spawns do not specify what happens when they run into a friendly unit...
so they follow the normal unit rules when this occurs... they stop...
as it is unspecified what happens to squig hoppers they follow the precedent layed down by spawn... they stop...
In my book pump wagons don't specify what happens if they come into contact with friendly units. Chaos spawns move random, but furter there is absolutely nothing that you can use to compare them to squig hoppers. Squig hoppers are beasts that from the fluff hop... I know often the fluff tells other things, but in this case it would be weird to have squigs that simply stop when they hit some night goblins. They would do chomp! and boing! and hop along.

what according to your "logic" happens should their movement leave them in the middle of a friendly unit?
Same as fanatics, move them through in a straight line to the other side of the unit, or if it touched the unit by only a fraction move them behind the unit to prevent cheating. But really we can argue what we want but fact is t he rules are so extremly vague that in friendly games everyone should just discuss with his opponent and wait for a FAQ.

dunno...
i just hope that these interesting rules for squigs dont get nerfed to hell because some people choose to twist them beyond all reason...
People like you, you mean? I don't get 'those' people neither...poor you :rolleyes:

@latro just use them how you want to, I'll do the same

mageith
29-10-2006, 19:56
So you don't think that the writer would make the effort to actually describe these totally new rules when he wants a unit to do things that no other unit can do and goes against the regular movement rules from the rulebook ... he probably thought using the word "always" would solve everything, right?

Always is also used in the same way with the pump wagon and its even in bold! (28) All it means, IMO, is that, as compulsory movement, the pump wagon cannot VOLUNTARILY move less than its dice roll. I think it means that for the squig hoppers too. Like all things it will stop at impassable terrain and the rules for both SH and PW state it contacts "enemy units" when charging. (As a chariot it scythes friendlys tho, if if flees. :chrome: )

A UNIT of compuslory skirmishers is confusing enough. (Almost anything with skirmishers is confusing these days.) A UNIT of compulsory Squig Flyers is OTT.

Mage Ith

metro_gnome
29-10-2006, 19:56
They would do chomp! and boing! and hop along.
and why wouldn't a spawn do this?
because the rules prohibit it...
and hoppers are not given permission to ignore those rules...
stuff your fluff...

woytek
30-10-2006, 09:05
and why wouldn't a spawn do this?
because the rules prohibit it...
and hoppers are not given permission to ignore those rules...
stuff your fluff...

Because a spawn is not a squig hopper! Third time I have to tell you this, please stop mentioning the word spawn.

So, you roll a 12 on 3D6. You are moving your squig hopper 12", no problem. But they get to the enemy to fast! What do you do? Just make them 'accidentely' bounce against one of your units, that way you can easily control their random movement!

Avian
30-10-2006, 09:31
Just make them 'accidentely' bounce against one of your units, that way you can easily control their random movement!
As you declare the direction before rolling, I cannot see how you can call this 'accidentally'.

DeathlessDraich
30-10-2006, 10:07
Woytek is right!... to some extent.

Those who like their rules RAW as opposed to medium rare:p should probably have a similar (but not identical) interpretation.

The words "full" and "always" in the description of how SH moves, cannot be ignored.

They will 'always' move their 'full 3D6'.

Move however is slightly different from a charge even if it is compulsory movement.
Most importantly, woytek, you cannot ignore the rules governing SH charges.

It clearly states, they "charge as normal", quite different from fanatics.
When charging, they could move less than 3D6.

However, a failed charge will still result in a 3D6" move - always "move a full 3D6"

woytek
30-10-2006, 11:29
Yes that's basically it, although I understand it can be interpreted in so many ways, a shame...

But don't forget the charge is the only exception on the movement, atleast the only exception mentioned in the army book. We could ofcourse say that they move as skirmishers, but then you could also say "hey look I rolled 18", but I think I'll just move 12 inch".

@avian, it was meant to be sarcastic. I mean if they'd simply stop when touching a friendly unit you could easily exploit that by making sure there is another unit standing about 8 inch from them. That way they will never march in front of your lines if you don't want them to.

And still, although fluff doesn't matter in rules, I quote:

Alas the name of the rule, the picture on page 26, and the fluff as well as prior edition play would all indicate that the Sguig Hopper hops.

Avian
30-10-2006, 11:31
I mean if they'd simply stop when touching a friendly unit you could easily exploit that by making sure there is another unit standing about 8 inch from them. That way they will never march in front of your lines if you don't want them to.
I'm not sure I understand what is supposed to be exploitive in this. To me this is simply the same as not moving Frenzied units full speed towards the enemy.

And so what if it hops? That doesn't mean it can jump over units. A guy on one of those bouncing balls you sit on with the handles and things will go boiiing as he hops along but you won't convince me that he can leap across very big obstacles in his path. :p

Tutore
30-10-2006, 12:17
I remember a friend of mine saying his demonettes could jump over the walls of a castle because in the background there was written that demonettes jump. That is obviously wrong. Rules count.

woytek
30-10-2006, 12:26
I'm not sure I understand what is supposed to be exploitive in this. To me this is simply the same as not moving Frenzied units full speed towards the enemy.

And so what if it hops? That doesn't mean it can jump over units. A guy on one of those bouncing balls you sit on with the handles and things will go boiiing as he hops along but you won't convince me that he can leap across very big obstacles in his path. :p

No it's like stopping the fanatics from entering your units because 'they're friendly'. It's obviously stopping something you don't want from happening when they're supposed to. Frenzy units are not random, you can let them stand still for a round, move them just a tiny bit...nothing exploiting there...

Avian
30-10-2006, 12:40
No it's like stopping the fanatics from entering your units because 'they're friendly'.
Fanatics have a rule that lets them pass through units. Apart from fleeing units, nothing else in the game has a rule saying they can do this, and that includes Squigs.

Atrahasis
30-10-2006, 12:40
No it's like stopping the fanatics from entering your units because 'they're friendly'. It's obviously stopping something you don't want from happening when they're supposed to. Frenzy units are not random, you can let them stand still for a round, move them just a tiny bit...nothing exploiting there...

Fanatics have specific rules dealing with what happens when contact is made with friendly units.

Squig Hoppers do not, so we must default to the standard rules.

woytek
30-10-2006, 13:32
Fanatics have specific rules dealing with what happens when contact is made with friendly units.

Squig Hoppers do not, so we must default to the standard rules.

it was an example...:angel:

metro_gnome
30-10-2006, 14:57
and a bad one...

Because a spawn is not a squig hopper! Third time I have to tell you this, please stop mentioning the word spawn.
what this?
"pay no attention to the man behind the curtain"?
and his failure to address the key issue?

in a word... spawn...

GrogsnotPowwabomba
30-10-2006, 15:49
If someone asks for it, I'm sure GW would reply that you need to roll 3d6 for the whole unit, not for every model. It's a matter of good sense.

Which is why this whole discussion is ridiculous to me. Is anyone actually suggesting that I should be rolling 3D6 10x for my unit of Squig Hoppers?

No, I didn't think so...


But this still doesn't solve them for hopping over terrain or not. The rules very clearly state they always move 3D6 and therefore you can't say "hey I rolled 18", let's move only 12."

You are looking for a loophole. "Always" implies that they must move the full distance unless they cannot for whatever reason (impassable terrain, friendly units blocking them, etc). If the unit was meant to break the normal rules of the game, there would be a more detailed explanation of how this was done. The Snotling Pump Wagon or Night Goblin Fanatics are good examples of the rules being more detailed to allow the unit to perform something beyond what the standard rules would dictate. You can't just make up rules saying they bounce over impassable terrain, etc...


So in my eyes saying that they simply stop when they hit something doesn't comply with the one rule given and is thus, not an option.

Where does the rule say that the unit ignores the normal rules for moving? All it says is that they must "always" move 3D6", which implies that this is how far they move assuming they can move the full distance. You are putting too much emphasis on the world "always" here, as it is meant to imply that the player has no control over the distance the unit moves, only the direction.

Also, using Chaos Spawn is a very reasonable comparison as the unit's movement rules are very similar to those of Squig Hoppers. So as many times as you want to say we are not talking about Chaos Spawn, we are talking about a unit that moves just like Squig Hoppers, so the comparisons are justified, relevant, and basically all but destroy your entire argument.


it was an example...:angel:

Which further tore apart your argument...

woytek
30-10-2006, 16:19
and a bad one...
what this?
"pay no attention to the man behind the curtain"?
and his failure to address the key issue?

in a word... spawn...
Your mama never taught you to be nice? Bad boy, down boy!


You are looking for a loophole. "Always" implies that they must move the full distance unless they cannot for whatever reason (impassable terrain, friendly units blocking them, etc). If the unit was meant to break the normal rules of the game, there would be a more detailed explanation of how this was done. The Snotling Pump Wagon or Night Goblin Fanatics are good examples of the rules being more detailed to allow the unit to perform something beyond what the standard rules would dictate. You can't just make up rules saying they bounce over impassable terrain, etc...
I am not looking for a loophole, the rules are unclear that's all. You are doing the exact same thing as I am except you think you are right and I think I'm right.

Where does the rule say that the unit ignores the normal rules for moving? All it says is that they must "always" move 3D6", which implies that this is how far they move assuming they can move the full distance. You are putting too much emphasis on the world "always" here, as it is meant to imply that the player has no control over the distance the unit moves, only the direction.
That's your interpretation and I will respect it.

Also, using Chaos Spawn is a very reasonable comparison as the unit's movement rules are very similar to those of Squig Hoppers. So as many times as you want to say we are not talking about Chaos Spawn, we are talking about a unit that moves just like Squig Hoppers, so the comparisons are justified, relevant, and basically all but destroy your entire argument.
The only thing they have in common is the 'rolling for random movement'. The rest is different. I will wait for a FAQ, which hopefully contains some usefull stuff.

Which further tore apart your argument...
It just shows that some people can't see what's real and what's sarcasm...

GrogsnotPowwabomba
30-10-2006, 18:10
The only thing they have in common is the 'rolling for random movement'. The rest is different. I will wait for a FAQ, which hopefully contains some usefull stuff.

It just shows that some people can't see what's real and what's sarcasm...

An internet forum devoted to rules debates is not exactly the best venue for depicting sarcasm, but fair enough.

Having said this, you still have not refuted any of the arguments against your interpretation. The only thing that is the same for Chaos Spawn and Squig Hoppers is the random movement distance because, if I recall, this is the only way in which they differ from normal units.

I honestly do not think a FAQ is even necessary for this, since I think it is perfectly clear how the unit works. It works exactly like other units in the game, except that it has 3D6" movement in a straight line and if this movement takes it into contact with an enemy, it counts as charging. Other than that, it is just like any other unit in the game, because no further explanation is given in the "BOIING!" rules entry...

Regardless, you can't just make up new rules for a unit because the current rules are unclear. So even if the intention was that Squigs can hop over terrain and friendly units, you must follow the standard rules for them until this is stated in the rules...

tangerinealtoid
30-10-2006, 20:37
Strictly reading the squig hopper rules, we must roll the 3d6 individually for each squig hopper, and since units move at the pace of the slowest model, move the unit accordingly.

That said, there is nothing in the Squig Hopper rules that suggests that they can hop over anything. Impassable terrain is still impassable, as are other units.

Actually, there's nothing in the rules text to suggest that you role a separate 3D6 for each squighopper model. If you take a look at the rules for movement again, it clearly refers to "Squighoppers" plural, not singular. "Squighoppers move 3d6", not "each Squighopper moves 3d6".

Likewise, skirmishers don't fall back from combat 2d6 for each model, you move the whole regiment 2d6- so why would you interpret Squighoppers as the one unit in the entire game that rolls separately per model for movement?

Not to belabor the point :), but if GW intended a skirmishing unit to roll separately for movement and then, in order to keep coherency move at the rate of the slowest model, they would have provided rules for such? That's a pretty complicated presumption to make that is necessary to make if you will roll separately for each model.

Therefore, if you presume that the reference to "Squighoppers" in the plural means you roll once, you can avoid any other complicated presumptions that will be necessary to make in order to deal with coherency problems. A unit that starts out in coherency, rolls once for movement, and must move in a straight line will almost always end their movement in coherency.

But, that raises another question. What if you have the below situation (S= squighoppers, N= Night goblins)




NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN

. . . S .S . . . .S . . S . . S(1) . . .S(2)

. . .. . . S . .S . . .S . .. . . .S(3)

If the squighoppers annouced that they were moving directy forward, towards the nightgoblin unit, what happens to S1, S2, and S3? They aren't blocked by the friendly nighgoblin unit, so do they proceed the full 3d6, or do they stop along with the rest of the unit that is blocked by the nightgoblin unit, presuming that they do not "hop" over the unit? I think that it is a reasonable presumption that S1, S2, and S3 stop in order to keep unit coherency, but are there any rules that provide for same?

While I agree that we should not presume that Squighoppers ignore friendly units and impassable terrain features based on the text "always move 3d6", the "hopping" interpretation would resolve the coherency problem.

metro_gnome
30-10-2006, 21:32
they move as fast as the slowest model in the unit...
so they stop with the rest of the unit when it encounters the friendly unit...

GrogsnotPowwabomba
30-10-2006, 21:53
I agree. Nothing states that they do not have to maintain unit coherency, so the best you could do is for a line outward with each model within 1" of the other.

Atrahasis
31-10-2006, 01:28
Actually, there's nothing in the rules text to suggest that you role a separate 3D6 for each squighopper model. If you take a look at the rules for movement again, it clearly refers to "Squighoppers" plural, not singular. "Squighoppers move 3d6", not "each Squighopper moves 3d6".

But the profile entry is 3d6, and the profile belongs to individual models, not the unit, unless you're suggesting that the entire unit has 1 wound and 2 attacks between them.

NakedFisherman
31-10-2006, 01:41
But the profile entry is 3d6, and the profile belongs to individual models, not the unit, unless you're suggesting that the entire unit has 1 wound and 2 attacks between them.

A Squig Hopper can move 3D6". This random movement is never said to be rolled for by each model individually. Besides, all references to their movement rules can quite easily be read as pertaining to the unit. You can argue your interpretation that the profile belongs to the model, but the rules for their movement do not state such.

tangerinealtoid
31-10-2006, 02:23
But the profile entry is 3d6, and the profile belongs to individual models, not the unit, unless you're suggesting that the entire unit has 1 wound and 2 attacks between them.

There is lots of "random" movement taking place in Warhammer- Orcs getting extra boosts by rolling 6's on animosty, units fleeing, units pursuing. In each and every case, the unit moves as a unit, and it makes no difference that the models are skirmishing or not. Why would you presume, without support, that Squighoppers are the one unit iin the game that rolls separately for each model for movement?

The profile entry reads "3d6," and its perfectly reasonable to interpret that this is how far the "unit" moves, simply because GW did not state "roll separately per Squighopper." There is simply nothing in the profile or special rules text that says "3d6 each". And, you don't have to presume that a "unit shares 1 wound to accept that a skirmishing unit would actually move as a unit at the same rate, as opposed to your suggestion that a unit of ten models would actually move as 10 one-model units.

By your reasoning, if you had a Mob of 10 squigs 5 inches away from an enemy regiment, and you rolled 5 or above for 9 hoppers, and rolled 3 for the last, the whole unit would move two inches- in direct contradiction of the explicit statement that if a squig hopper hits an enemy unit, it enters combat. Your interpretation creates this bizzaro-movement method where the more models you add to a unit, overall the more likely it is for the whole unit to move slower, since it gives you more chances to come up with 3's, 4's, and 5's on three dice. Again, if GW had intended Squighoppers to be the one unit in the game the rolls a number of 3d6s equal to the number of models, and then moves the slowest amount, wouldn't they have spelled out this bizzare rule? Something like, "yes, if you take 10 squighoppers, you will be rolling 3d6 ten times, and move at the rate of the slowest; and if you take a unit of 30, your opponent will quit because half the game time will be taken up by rolling for movement of this one unit!".:wtf:

And, why presume that a unit of skirmishers would even move at the rate of the slowest model? They aren't in a regiment block, so they could possibly still keep coherency and move in a straight line, while moving different rates.

The point is, throughout warhammer, units move as units, not as individual models. Presuming that Squighoppers would be a deviation from this norm just because they have a random movement characteristic, and that GW provide at least a sentence of text to explicitly spell out such a deviation from the norm is far less likely than the alternative: GW stated that Squighoppers move 3d6 because like every other unit in the game that is moving randomly- you roll once and move everything.

woytek
31-10-2006, 09:00
Hmmm ok, there are some fair points. But my main argument against 'normal movement' is that squig are just not likely to stop simply because there are some night goblins in front of them. I would say you are right simply because the rules don't clearly stats they can... but it's so exploitable:

A unit of fearsome hopping squigs with night goblins trying to stay on like a rodeo. They are raving forwards but "O wait"! "there are some tiny night goblins in front of us" "Let's slow down a bit and stay behind them"

It just doesn't seem right, and although alot of warhammer doesn't seem right most things actually do make some sense but this just doesn't...

Avian
31-10-2006, 10:33
It just doesn't seem right, and although alot of warhammer doesn't seem right most things actually do make some sense but this just doesn't...
As a rule of thumb you should try to avoid considering the flavour text when reading rules, it only leads to silly situations.

Player A: "It does not seem right that my Chaos Lord should be stuck in combat with some Clanrats, he should be able to walk away from them with no ill effect."
*Player A moves model into combat with Ratling Gun instead*
Player B: "Oi!"

mattjgilbert
31-10-2006, 12:01
I see what you are saying woytek but I honestly think that “always moves 3d6” means you always roll 3d6; not 2d6 or 4d6 or a fixed distance. Other than that, they follow the normal rules for movement because nothing in the book states that they do not. Thus if they contact a unit, they stop. What you roll represents the maximum distance the unit can travel.

The rule simply represents the randomness of the distance moved, not the ability to bounce over intervening impassable terrain or units. It may not by fluffy but fluff and rules sometimes do not mix for matters of game balance or otherwise.

metro_gnome
31-10-2006, 14:39
And, why presume that a unit of skirmishers would even move at the rate of the slowest model? They aren't in a regiment block, so they could possibly still keep coherency and move in a straight line, while moving different rates.
this is not a presumption this is a rule...
should a character join a unit of skirmishers... and his movement value is different from the skirmishers...
the unit will move at the lowest movement value...

but yes just as the animosity or Waaaagh! rule states the unit moves D6 or whatever...
so too does the Boiiing! rule state the unit moves at 3D6...

here comes the spawn again... falling on my head like a memory...
if this is so... whats the silly word hes using?.. "exploitable"...
how come spawn players never use it to their... um... "advantage"?

Atrahasis
31-10-2006, 15:07
There is lots of "random" movement taking place in Warhammer- Orcs getting extra boosts by rolling 6's on animosty, units fleeing, units pursuing. In each and every case, the unit moves as a unit, and it makes no difference that the models are skirmishing or not. Why would you presume, without support, that Squighoppers are the one unit iin the game that rolls separately for each model for movement? I never said that skirmishing made a difference, so I don't know why you think I have.

The difference between Squig Hoppers and all of the other random movement you are describing is that that other random movement is caused by an external effect - animosity, psychology, combat. In the case of Squig Hoppers and only in the case of Squig Hoppers does a unit consisting of more than one model have a random movement characteristic in its profile.

MODELS HAVE PROFILES, NOT UNITS. The movement characteristic of a Squig Hopper model is determined by a 3D6 roll.


The profile entry reads "3d6," and its perfectly reasonable to interpret that this is how far the "unit" moves, simply because GW did not state "roll separately per Squighopper."Reason" has very little to do with it. "Reason" is subjective. The rules as they are written give each individual squig hopper model a movement of 3D6.


There is simply nothing in the profile or special rules text that says "3d6 each".Yes there is, in the profile. Profiles belong to models, not units. Again I ask, does an entire unit of Squig Hoppers have 1 wound and 2 attacks between them? It doesn't say they get 2 attacks each according to you.


And, you don't have to presume that a "unit shares 1 wound to accept that a skirmishing unit would actually move as a unit at the same rate, as opposed to your suggestion that a unit of ten models would actually move as 10 one-model units.You do have to ignore the rule that a unit moves at teh pace of its slowest member to go by your "interpretation" of the rules though.


By your reasoning, if you had a Mob of 10 squigs 5 inches away from an enemy regiment, and you rolled 5 or above for 9 hoppers, and rolled 3 for the last, the whole unit would move two inches

No, they'd move 3". I don't know where you got 2" from.


- in direct contradiction of the explicit statement that if a squig hopper hits an enemy unit, it enters combat.It doesn't contradict it - no squig hopper has reached an enemy unit.


Your interpretation creates this bizzaro-movement method where the more models you add to a unit, overall the more likely it is for the whole unit to move slower, since it gives you more chances to come up with 3's, 4's, and 5's on three dice.

Yes, it is bizarre, isn't it. I'd like to direct you to my sig.


Again, if GW had intended Squighoppers to be the one unit in the game the rolls a number of 3d6s equal to the number of models, and then moves the slowest amount, wouldn't they have spelled out this bizzare rule?They have. Just not in the text below the Squigs. They haven't detailed how combat works under every unit either, but we can't go making up rules for combat just because of that. The movement rules are described in the rulebook.


And, why presume that a unit of skirmishers would even move at the rate of the slowest model? They aren't in a regiment block, so they could possibly still keep coherency and move in a straight line, while moving different rates.Skirmishers have no special permission to ignore the rule that units move at the rate of the slowest model.


The point is, throughout warhammer, units move as units, not as individual models.

In the quote immediately above this you claim that skirmishers should be exempt from the "slowest model" rule because they move individually. Make your mind up.

I only made the point in the first place to demonstrate that reading the rules for bizarre trend-bucking units like Squigs or Fanatics too closely results in madness because GW lack clarity in rules-authoring and foresight.

You can argue "reasonableness" and "intent" from now until the squigs come home, but the rules as they are written are concerned with neither.

woytek
31-10-2006, 15:15
athrahis you are making a step too early. When checking for the lowest movement, that movement would be 3D6. As to check how fast the unit should move, that is thus 3D6.

You are trying to roll 3D6 first and then check the lowest, this is however incorrect. You don't move 20 models that have a movement of 8" model by model, each of them has a movement value in their stat-line though. You check wheter it's all the same (8" = 8", 3D6" = 3D6") and then move the unit correspondingly.

mattjgilbert
31-10-2006, 15:17
Mildly off-topic. What happens first, animosity or the squig hopper movement? Can the former prevent the latter?

Avian
31-10-2006, 15:19
Animosity is at the start of the turn, while squig hoppers move in the compulsory movement phase, which is quite some time later.
They also have no kind of immunity to Animosity.

Latro
31-10-2006, 15:20
The difference between Squig Hoppers and all of the other random movement you are describing is that that other random movement is caused by an external effect - animosity, psychology, combat. In the case of Squig Hoppers and only in the case of Squig Hoppers does a unit consisting of more than one model have a random movement characteristic in its profile.

MODELS HAVE PROFILES, NOT UNITS. The movement characteristic of a Squig Hopper model is determined by a 3D6 roll.


Since my post didn't get a reaction previous time this point popped up, I'll just quote myself:


It would be a good point if the rules say you actually have to roll for all individual models ... if it doesn't, then it's just an interpretation.

I see it like this:

- Like you said, the model with the lowest movement value determines the speed of the unit ... and the lowest value is 3d6.

- So the unit moves at speed 3d6 ... now role the dice to see how many inch that actually is.

- Move the unit.

Just as valid as your interpretation I think. I'm following the rules as written, because it simply doesn't say you have to roll for all models individually. The advantage if this method is abviously that the unit can actually move in a "normal-ish" fashion and function like a "regular-ish" skirmishing unit.

... and yes, the rules could have been clearer (but common sense goes a long way)

Mind you, Im not saying you're breaking the rules with your interpretation ... but I am saying that mine isn't breaking the rules either. Your way however results in a a lot of stress and a unit that will barely move, while my way results in something a lot like a regular skirmish unit ... just with a 3d6 move.

tangerinealtoid
31-10-2006, 16:46
And one additional point- yes, models have profiles while units don't, but that doesn't then support your assumption that every model will always use their statistic in an individual fashion. Example: when making a break or panic test, do you roll on the leadership of each model individually, or do you roll once? Obviously you roll once because the rules provide that you do. The point is, just because the stat. line provides for an individual number, be it a set number or a random number doesn't mean that you suddenly change one of the fundamental ways the game is played- moving units as units and not as individual models.

Do you really believe that any FAQ issued by GW would support your position, or are you just arguing your point to incite discussion?

Atrahasis
31-10-2006, 17:05
And one additional point- yes, models have profiles while units don't, but that doesn't then support your assumption that every model will always use their statistic in an individual fashion. Example: when making a break or panic test, do you roll on the leadership of each model individually, or do you roll once? Obviously you roll once because the rules provide that you do. The point is, just because the stat. line provides for an individual number, be it a set number or a random number doesn't mean that you suddenly change one of the fundamental ways the game is played- moving units as units and not as individual models. We are specifically told to use the highest available Ld for Leadership tests. We are specifically told to use the lowest movement when determining how far a unit moves. I hope you can see the difference.


Do you really believe that any FAQ issued by GW would support your position, or are you just arguing your point to incite discussion?I've said (or at least hinted) at least twice in this thread that I don't think that this is how it should be played. However, the rules say it is to be played this way.

It certainly isn't the way we play it.

As far as a FAQ is concerned, God only knows. Historically, this sort of thing wouldn't be FAQ'd, or if it was the answer would be insulting and patronising (something along the lines of 'Don't be silly! The unit moves 3d6"!', which would miss the point of the question entirely).
Under the new policy, I'd be even more surprised if a FAQ is issued, and if it is I highly doubt it will in fact be RAW, despite Jervis' insistence on that being the current policy.

mattjgilbert
31-10-2006, 18:15
Animosity is at the start of the turn, while squig hoppers move in the compulsory movement phase, which is quite some time later.
They also have no kind of immunity to Animosity.I know it's quite some time later ;) I was wondering if the "always moves 3d6" could somehow override the animosity. Goblins squabble but squigs carry on regardless!

I'm fine with it preventing movement, I just wanted it clarified.

Crazy Harborc
31-10-2006, 19:07
RAW, raw.....read as written. I did that on page 26 in the Orc/Goblin armybook. RAW applies to the special rules in the armybook too, doesn't it?

Nothing I read would lead me to believe I would roll for "each" hopper in the unit....never did before, why now? "Always travel 3 D6 in a straight line" The exception mentioned is when the Squig Hopper unit encounters an enemy unit. As the title on 26 says "Special Rules", in this case appling to Night Goblin Squig Hoppers. Doesn't mention following all the other movement rules/penalities as well.;)

Avian
01-11-2006, 08:55
I know it's quite some time later ;) I was wondering if the "always moves 3d6" could somehow override the animosity. Goblins squabble but squigs carry on regardless!
Squig Hoppers are nowhere listed as immune to Animosity and considering that there is even a list of which units Animosity does not apply to which Squig Hoppers are not on, I think it is difficult to make a case for them not being affected. :p

DeathlessDraich
01-11-2006, 09:13
Double negatives - actually a triple negative, Avian but the others and I understand your point, I think, - SH are subjected to Animosity.

However MattJGilbert has a valid question:

pg16 Animosity: Result 1: "...it can do nothing this turn"

'Nothing' is too imperative to ignore.

pg20 BRB Compulsory Moves: "They always move a randomly determined distance".
Is this with reference to ALL compulsory moves? If it refers to fleeing only then the rules are insufficient in determining other types of compulsory moves.

'Always' is too imperative to ignore as well, coupled with the 'always' in SH movement rules.

I think SH effectively ignores 1 on the animosity table but not 6s.

Avian
01-11-2006, 09:28
'Always' is too imperative to ignore as well, coupled with the 'always' in SH movement rules.
Considering that there are at least two examples where Squig Hoppers do NOT move 3D6" in the compulsory phase*, I don't think we should put too much weight on the word "always" and instead interpret it as "whenever possible".





* when charging and being locked in combat

DeathlessDraich
01-11-2006, 09:36
Fair point Avian.
So do you think the SH that rolls 1 on animosity does not move? I'm ambivalent.

Avian
01-11-2006, 10:07
I play it that a unit that Squabbles cannot move unless forced to (either because they flee or because they are moved by a spell) by some factor outside the unit itself. I believe that if the Squig Hoppers were intended to have any kind of immunity to Squabbling, it would have been listed - but then a lot of the O&G rules are quite badly written. I would not stake a lot of money on this interpretation and I would not be too surprised if an FAQ (should we ever get one) says that Hoppers don't test for Animosity at all. Had it been me who wrote the book, I would have exempted them from testing, which would have solved quite a few problems with the unit.

Thus I am currently treating them like Savage Orcs, who would normally be forced to charge due to Frenzy, but where it is generally agreed that Squbbling prevents this.

woytek
01-11-2006, 11:27
Animosity is at the start of the turn, while squig hoppers move in the compulsory movement phase, which is quite some time later.
They also have no kind of immunity to Animosity.

Remember, test for animosity at the start of the movement phase. This might help with other rules like rallying and determining the order.

g00nsta
01-11-2006, 14:41
boiing over everything

think about how hard it would be to set up a situation where s-hoppers are behind your unit when an enemy unit is with-in boiing range

not really a tactic , more just something that would happen now and again, so who cares

and as for landing on your own unit
my house ruling would be one round of combat on own unit and then random direction pushed 1 inch out of unit (that`s the gobbo way)
(hey and in the confusion just for sh1ts and giggles release fanatics)
this thread has gone on way too long

tangerinealtoid
01-11-2006, 15:11
Actually, there is no rule that a unit moves as slow as its slowest member. The rule you are mis-quoting is found on pg 74, under "CHARACTERS MOVING WITH UNITS", and provides that if characters join a unit and moves slower than the unit, the unit moves at the pace of the character.

Obviously, S-hoppers are not characters, but your interpretation of S-hopper movement relies on the presumption that this rule extends to non-characters. But, like your sig-line provides "Read as Written". The rule doesn't mention non-characters, so it doesn't apply to them.

I would suggest that there is no rule that a unit moves at the rate of its slowest member because this instance can never happen- because units move together at one speed and not separately.

So, under your interpretation, what you are left with is a unit that will inevitably get strung out all over the board, but will still enter combat if any single member "makes it". But, that means that the unit as designed can break the coherency rule. The only logical presumption is that you use the interpretation of the movement rules (the movement stat line is for the unit, not individual, just like leadership) that does not result in you breaking the coherency rule.

Off topic

Interestingly enough, if a character joins a unit of S-hoppers, it can never leave the unit, because a character cannot leave a unit while it is subject to compulsory movement. (pg 73)

woytek
01-11-2006, 15:38
I don't think that's how it works, tangerinealtoid. But anyway no character may join squig hoppers.

Autobot HQ
01-11-2006, 18:20
Actually a night gobbo on giant squig can. Read the book.

Gekiganger
01-11-2006, 18:35
Squig Hoppers don't charge conventionaly and will fight whatever they contact

That gives the impression that they fight allies too, although I think it's just WD wording.

Murderous Monkey
02-11-2006, 08:15
Actually a night gobbo on giant squig can. Read the book.

Or perhaps not.

"May not join units (Great Cave Squig Only)" p26 O&G

tangerinealtoid
02-11-2006, 18:15
But, if you plunked your Night gobbo hero on great cave squig in the midst of a unit of S-hoppers, you would still get the benefit of the skirmishers blocking line of sight to your hero (and thus not getting shot), and depending on your rolls, you could still get them into combat together. The only downside is that you wouldn't be able to use the hero's LD for tests.

That is of course presuming that GW ever even comes out with a model for a Nigt gobbo hero on great cave squig.

woytek
02-11-2006, 18:47
But, if you plunked your Night gobbo hero on great cave squig in the midst of a unit of S-hoppers, you would still get the benefit of the skirmishers blocking line of sight to your hero (and thus not getting shot), and depending on your rolls, you could still get them into combat together. The only downside is that you wouldn't be able to use the hero's LD for tests.

That is of course presuming that GW ever even comes out with a model for a Nigt gobbo hero on great cave squig.

great cave squig is being made, and will come out next summer together with giant spider.

You must have units 1 inch apart so you can't place your big boss 'inside' them right?

Atrahasis
02-11-2006, 19:08
You must have units 1 inch apart so you can't place your big boss 'inside' them right?Opposing units must be kept 1" apart.

Crazy Harborc
03-11-2006, 00:41
After they/opposing units stop moving. That's stopped a minimum of one inch apart/away from/etc.

SkaGoblin
24-11-2006, 18:21
Just had a thought...(hold your applause)

Assuming the pro-bouncing lobby is correct and Hoppers can jump over intervening friendly troops or terrain, what happens if a unit's random movement lands it on top of a friendly unit? It can't stop there, but there is no mechanism for it moving again, ala previous editions and the current Fanatic rules. No two units can be at the same place at the same time (the BRB and physics back me up there) so on the likely scenario of a unit landing amidst another, the rules (and reality) would break down.

As for the every-model-rolls-separately thing, the primary reason for the new Squid Explode rule is to nix having to roll 18 random movements a turn. It would seem silly to get rid of it in one sense but stealthily add it into something new. The faster-character example stated is an exception to that rule, if for no other reason as it is most common case of a rare situation of multiple M values in a unit.

Remember that while models have profiles, those profiles are simply averages of those people\monsters\Squigs in a unit. Some individuals maybe be faster or stronger or dumber, but on a unit-level game like Warhammer, the averages are what is important.

Da GoBBo
25-11-2006, 10:18
I don't quiet understand all the fuzz. I haven't read all the posts, only the last two pages, so maybe this is old news. As far as I know all troopers in a unit have the same profile/statbar. Their movement value is 3D6" and thus altered each turn. It's the characteristic that is changed each turn and each hopper (in the same unit) follows that same characteristic.

So one turn their movement might be 7, another turn it might be 16. There is nothing variable about this so every hopper moves the same distance. A second unit usually has there own statbar, and might move a different distance.

Other that, a hopper unit would even be more useless than snotlings when you have to roll for each and take the lowest (even snotties have their uses). Gamewise this could never be the case.

DeathlessDraich
25-11-2006, 10:50
I strongly suggest you read the whole thread first DaGobbo. There are some relevant issues.

eldrak
25-11-2006, 15:24
No two units can be at the same place at the same time (the BRB and physics back me up there) so on the likely scenario of a unit landing amidst another, the rules (and reality) would break down.

Actually you are wrong. There's nothing in the rules saying that you can't stack your units on each other or move your units trough each other. It is just assumed that you can't do it and nobody plays it that way. Alessio has even confirmed this.

Festus
25-11-2006, 15:29
Alessio has even confirmed this.
Any proof?

Festus

greenskin
25-11-2006, 17:24
Any proof?
Sure!
A) Search through the rulebook. There is no mention.
B) In a post by lazarus about Alessio's seminar at the recent GT:

One thing that made me laugh was when he was on about the "model" issue in relation to magic items that apply to a model and in the rules a dragon with rider is a model - they don't want to have to make changes to the core rules so until books change we have to live with it RAW applies. But he did go on to say people obsess about what is written and never mention the unwritten rules as it were.....

His example was- no where in the rules does it say you cannot move throught friendly troops (it hasn't ever it seems) or that you can't stack units!
A suggestion of dwarves on stilts was funny....

Festus
26-11-2006, 09:42
Hi

You are obviously bad at sensing sarcasm... your spider-senses should tingle... :rolleyes:

The flying-butt-monkey rule is in effect then in WHFB? :eyebrows:

Festus

Yellow Commissar
26-11-2006, 14:59
The flying-butt-monkey rule is in effect then in WHFB? :eyebrows:

Festus

That's right, and they're strength 10.;)

DeathlessDraich
26-11-2006, 16:17
Eldrak: Is stacking units on top of each other a serious suggestion?
Festus: What's a flying-butt monkey and what happens if archers stand and shoot against it?
Yellow Commisar: S10 ? That's too strong for a butt surely

Festus
26-11-2006, 16:29
Well, let's say thery're not in the rules :evilgrin:

eldrak
26-11-2006, 19:17
DeathlessDraich: You have to ask Alessio if he will use it in the finals.

No I would never do any of that in a game. It's written in a stupid way telling you what things there are that limits your movement and those are terrain, board edge and enemy units.

Festus
26-11-2006, 19:23
Hi

No I would never do any of that in a game. It's written in a stupid way telling you what things there are that limits your movement and those are terrain, board edge and enemy units.
Nope. Even friendly modles block the way.
cf the Compulsory movement for this, as your troops may hinder charges, block ways, etc.

If you thought otherwise, I ... well, nevermind....

FEstus