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Lornak Bloodgreed
28-10-2006, 02:51
What ideas and concepts does the community have for the dark eldar, any ideas, any thoughts on revamping models, stats, even backround. What would you all like to get out of the Dark Eldar?

Personally, I would like to see them look like they did on the old Dark Eldar cover, with lots of detailed spikes and blades on their armour, more manes of balck flowing hair, ect. I would also like to see more high tech balde carrier ships, maybe better jetbikes, ect. Oh, and they can do soo much more with warp beasts, Haemonculi, grotesques, and wyches. What do you think should be doen to this very interesting and table top worthy race? I have 1500 points worth of thesebad boys in my box of tricks and as I look at them I think, they need an overhaul.

Pictures of personal thoughts, concept art, and idea lists are welcome. Havefun with this thread, all ideas are welcome, HAIL THE GODESS OF PAIN!!!:evilgrin: :cheese:

Lord Humungus
28-10-2006, 03:26
I think the warriors need a basic weapon that isn't a complete joke. Ideally they would have a squad size like guardians, guardian armor, dire avenger stats (aside from save), and be able to mix rifles with pistol & sword, with up to two allowed to have assault weapons. A small enough squad can have a transport. Something like that would help them be more interesting / effective.

The names of their weapons need to change. "Blaster" and "Shredder" are seriously **** and no where near sinister. Some of their units could use better names, too.

Most important, high quality miniatures are a must. There isn't a single miniature in the line that piques my interest. The ideas are ok, but the execution is painfully lacking, in my opinion.

Forgive my generality.

Brimstone
28-10-2006, 06:06
Hi HM_Cassius,

I'm going to move this thread to 40K general as it's a bit light on the rumour side of your thread title (I'm going to change that as well).

You can find the most recent Dark Eldar rumour discussion here. (http://www.warseer.com/forums//showthread.php?t=48846&page=14)

The Warseer Inquisition

macbeth
28-10-2006, 10:13
They need a psyker. I think they really do need a psyker. They are Eldars, after all, and I think a "Darkseer" would fit quite nicely...

And maybe another vehicle to support the Ravager.

As for already existing units, I think the Talos should get something. At present time, it is too slow, so it always ends up at the back of teh army, and it never gets where it should be, in HtH...

RampagingRavener
28-10-2006, 10:57
No psykers-they've got the lifespan of a Mosquito on Commoragh, so why would one live long enough to lead a Raiding force? The only exception to this might be as a Special Character.

Raider squads can choose Spliter Rifle or Pistol/CCweapon. I actually like the Splinter Rifle, as it allows Warriors to support another unit in combat then hold the captured position from counter-attack at range, so I wouldn't want to see their rifles changed.

I'd also like them to have the option of attacking at night, using the Night Fight rules if they wished (or perhaps on a 4+?). Fluffy and gives them some help on boards with low cover.

Reaver Jetbikes getting the Eldar Jetbike and Hit and Run rules. +1 Attack might be nice since they're covered in spikes (I mean, it's the same logic as Chaos Bikes) but it could be a bit much when combined with H&R, which I see as being more important.

Grotesques need to loose the 'Stupid' rule and be able to give units behind them cover saves like Ork Grotz do. If you draw LoS through the Grotesques, the unit behind gets a 5+ cover save, passed saves are allocated to the Grotesques instead.

Something I'd like to see is a rule-"Soul Drain". For every model a multi-wound Dark Eldar (with the exception of Grotesques and possibly the Talos) kills in combat, on a D6 they recover a wound up to their starting total. It's not a huge boost considering the inherent T3 5+ save of their characters means even if they do get a wound back after the Shadowfeild collapses they're still very fragile, but it's just pure flavour and a nice touch IMO.

Oh, and no Chaos Eldar!

sulla
28-10-2006, 12:43
I don't think the list needs to much work really, just a few slight tweaks here and there. for e.g., I would give mandrakes the ability to fleet of foot even before they have revealed themselves and give them a squad leader type too for some punch when they get to cc.

The only real priority is a complete revamp of the model range. Warrior plastics need more 'motion' to them - they should be running or at the very least advancing, wytches should be eldar sized, warp beasts shoud be scarier and the talos should look more like a torture machine and less 'lumpen'.

Reflex
28-10-2006, 15:00
i would rather see an whole new range of awsome quality minis ratther than the list updated.

maybe it would be nice to see a heavy tank thats still fast, kind of like how the eldar have the Prism Tank and sorta like the Falcon.

Shadowseer Crofty
28-10-2006, 15:56
A few of my thoughts on what to be done with the dark eldar
1) mandrakes. the fluff states in places they use poisoned blades, let the rules reflect that (as long as they are proper DE poisoned blades, no making poisoned blades like everyone elses wounds on 4+) and let them fleet and make a scout move when using their special set up, keeps them more original than the hordes of different infiltrating troops.
2) some sort of fast attack Vyper equivalent, with a nice assortment of splinter cannons or sustained only disintegrators
3) make disintegrators a scourges option.
4) give raider squads the option of pistol and ccw

Son-Of-Sparda
28-10-2006, 16:57
Exodites! We need Eldar riding dinosaurs!

Oh, and give them the use of harlequins as well...

RampagingRavener
28-10-2006, 20:51
Oh, talking of Scourges, ATM they're kinda useless. I'd say change their Jump Packs to Jet Packs (like battlesuits have) and give them the ability to Move and Fire as well as disintegrators as an option.

Now, you have a deadly, but expensive and horribly fragile unit designed for agressive hit-and-run attacks on tough enemies and vehicles-perfectly in fitting with the Dark Eldar.

ashc
28-10-2006, 20:57
dark eldar basically need what all the new books are giving by the sounds of it; making the playing field more even by making options within army lists more 'tasty'; for the dark eldar i would imagine you are looking at hellions, scourges, warp beasts, mandrakes.

And of course, the obligatory new model release. imagine what could be coming for you dark eldar players taking a look at some of the eldar releases... :evilgrin:

Ash

chivalrous
28-10-2006, 22:07
New models for some units would be nice.
Ruleswise I don't really think there's justification or need for any new unit types, what we've got are plenty good enough but are individually short on options and upgrades. As a raiding force there should be a minimum of heavy vehicles and the Ravager does a spectacular job.

Lord Choices :- I'll mutter about a master Haemonculus but that'd make Urien a bit pointless (well unless you wanted the Uber grotesque and weapons that wounded automatically)

Wyches:- They are perfect as they are, arguably the best assault unit in the game when they're tooled up with wych weapons, plasma grenades and a succubus with powerweapon/agoniser and especially so when mounted on a raider. I'd be very very upset if someone decided to tweak with their rules.

Grotesques:- Their 'feel no pain' rule is a lot of fun and they are just as good as warriors in a combat support role. As mentioned before, it would be nice if they provided cover for units behind them but the drawback with that is that units behind them are going to be impeeded by their relatively slow movement.

Mandrakes:- My other favourite unit in the army and it's a shame they have to compete with wyches (I'd much rather they were a fast attack choice to be honest). Poisoned weapons are an attractive idea but I think having the 2+ to wound on all models will drive their points cost up to the point where they're prohibitively expensive again. Best to stick to the 'Always Wounds on a 4+' or bring in the fantasy poison rule.

Warp Beasts:- What could you change about this unit? 5+ Daemonic Invulnerable save for the beasts perhaps and the Wych dodge/Invulnerable save for the Beastmaster.

Warriors A Disintegrator as an option in the same category as Splinter cannons/Dark Lances.

Raider Squads As already mentioned, the option to take a pistol and ccw and if this weapon selection is taken, then the squad has the option to take a second assault weapon (shredder or blaster) at the same cost of a Dark Lance, just like the Salemanders tac squad could do with Flamers. i.e. a raider squad with ccw and pistol can take 2 blasters, 2 shredders or one of each but the more expensive, them must be paid for at the cost of a Dark Lance.

Reaver jetbikes at the moment, they are the uber fast tank hunters and the most common unit you see in any army is a unit of 3 with 2 blasters. They aren't much good in combat which is probably a shame for their riders:p
I can't think of anything that would improve them hugely other than copying in the Hit and Run rule from the Hellions.
Some of the artwork (and indeed some of the models) show jetbikes trailing barbs, hooks and snares, would people be attracted by a Slave snare type rule where the jetbikes can fly over the top of a unit, inflicting an automatic S4 hit, in a similar way to the same rule on Raiders. Obviously any model killed in this way, counts as a capture when the Dark Eldar come to calculate VP's.
Maybe make them take a difficult terrain test if they attempt this and disallow them from doing it when 'turbo-boosting'.

Hellions:-Lovely models and the rules have been improved in the seond edition of the Codex. I disagree that Hellglaives should be powerweapons as had been suggested in the past, no unit outside the Elites section should be allowed to be wholly armed with power weapons.
possibly rending on the turn they charge to represent their skyboards scything into the enemy but This is another unit I don't particularly think needs a rules improvement.

Ravagers:-As heavy as I'd like to see Dark Eldar vehicles get to be frank with you.
With Dark Eldar as a fast and fragile, maybe a rule that allowed the Ravager to move 4" more than other Fast attack vehicles in respect to how many weapons it can fire, so IIRC for fast vehicles, they'd normally be able to move up to 6" and fire all main weapons or up to 12" and fire one main weapon, under this suggested rule, that would become up to 10" and fire all main weapons and up to 16" and fire one main weapon. Too powerful? yeah, it probably is and would make the Ravager more of a no brainer than it already is. To be honest it doesn't need tweaking.

Talos:- *shrugs* the option to make it all shooty or all hitty perhaps.
The options would be either replace the claws with more stingers and thus sacrifice attacks, down to 1 single attack but double the number of potential hits with the stinger, great for killing infantry from a distance OR replace the stinger with a tail weapon for +2A (I'd like to say +D3 but that would make it D3+D6+1 attacks in close combat which seems to come under the heading of convoluted and complicated according to GW's attitude to 40K dice rolling:wtf:)

Scourges:- I have never taken scourges with Dark Lances. I always too a unit of 5 with 4 Splinter cannons and a sybarite with soul seeker ammo and used it to whittle down assault squads and large mobs of troops to make them more manageable for my own assault units. If the Dark Lance option were replaced with a blaster option (and I'd gladly pay Dark Lance prices for those Blasters) then I might consider using them as an anti tank/monstrous creature unit. but at the moment, if you take them with Dark Lances then you're either going to be sacrificing the points you spent on that mobility or the points you spent on firepower but I think that was something that was specifically designed into them. I know a fair few marine players who would be glad to redeploy thier Devastators as quiqkly as Scourges.

Raiders:-Nope, again I wouldn't change a thing.

Heavy Weapon options:- I think the biggest complaint I had were that there weren't enough weapon options available for the Dark Eldar.
Vehicles could choose either a Dark Lance or a Disintegrator, Warriors had Shredders, Splinter Cannons, Dark Lances and Blasters, everyone else had Blasters or Shredders.
Shredders now have lost a lot of their effectiveness with the 4th ed template rules and I'd like to see them become a flamer template weapon rather than a blast template weapon (same S and AP) but it makes them a little pointess when mounted on Jetbikes (who in this event should have the shredder option replaced with a Splinter cannon).

Core_Commander
28-10-2006, 23:48
Oh, talking of Scourges, ATM they're kinda useless. I'd say change their Jump Packs to Jet Packs (like battlesuits have) and give them the ability to Move and Fire as well as disintegrators as an option.

Now, you have a deadly, but expensive and horribly fragile unit designed for agressive hit-and-run attacks on tough enemies and vehicles-perfectly in fitting with the Dark Eldar.

Well, I've always been sympathetic towards DE, seing as the concept is nice but they need a revamp BADLY, but I certainly hope such a change doesn't happen... Jet Packs are Tau technology (yeah, the BGB says "the most frequent users are Tau", but... whatever) and the Tau way of war (and battlesuits have earned themselves many "most annoying unit" awards :rolleyes: ). Making Reavers Eldar Jetbikes - yes, please, but JSJ infantry should stay the Tau trademark. Not to mention that a unit able to JSJ when firing HEAVY weapons would be cursed far more than any Crisis :cheese: ...

Chainsaw Guy
28-10-2006, 23:57
This might be pushing it, but I think it would be interesting to somehow increase the Talos's speed. Give it fleet, make it a vehicle skimmer (although I would rather keep it has a monstrous creature), whatever. It tends to not fit with the whole "super fast raid" stratagy that the Dark Eldar use.

Dranthar
29-10-2006, 01:57
This might be pushing it, but I think it would be interesting to somehow increase the Talos's speed. Give it fleet, make it a vehicle skimmer (although I would rather keep it has a monstrous creature), whatever. It tends to not fit with the whole "super fast raid" stratagy that the Dark Eldar use.

Niether do grotesques, but that's a haemonculus thing. The haemonculi units are the ones that are supposed to be slow and tough - it's a defining characteristic of that 'faction' within the Dark Eldar.

Off the top of my head;

1. Give Splinter rifle-armed models +2A on the Charge, rather than +1. It fits perfectly with the 'hit hard, hit fast' style of the Dark Eldar, but wouldn't be unbalancing and it keeps warriors as flexible units - good at both shooting (partially through their cheap weapon options) and HTH.
For the record I'm strongly against warriors getting a SP+CCW option, since it would simply turn them into HTH specialists, take away their inherent flexibility and would be a no-brainer choice for almost anyone taking raider squads.

2. Make grotesques customisable, like chaos possesed. They're supposed to be mad experiments, so where's the individuality? :D

3. Options to play with nightfight rules would be very, very suitable for a DE army. It also makes the Dark Eldar far less reliant on getting turn 1 and encourages a greater variety of play styles rather than most people going the "WWP army route" (which I love, but variety = good)

4. Another troops choice. My preference is currently for a unit of "Dark" Rangers, made up of those Eldar rangers who found their way to Commorragh and decided that their lifestyle was more to their liking.

5. Expanded options for pinning weapons (ala the 'fex' guns). I have dreams about warrior squads being able to take a horrorfex as a special/heavy weapon. :D

Finally, I don't really want to see anything outside of hellions getting a hit-and-run type ability (specifically, Eldar Jetbikes and Jetpacks). The Dark Eldar are not a hit and run army - it's not how they fight and adding options like these would encourage a hit and run style of play. The Dark Eldar should instead remain a "Hit and Hit some more" army. Keep them fast and let them hit very hard, but please, don't let them make pop-up style attacks. That really is more of a Tau/Eldar thing.

MaxORK
29-10-2006, 02:05
I am a strong beliver in working from the bottom upwards!

They really need to make the warriors look bigger and more 'cunning' Almost...Almost as cunning as a weasel which is dressed up as a fox! Some crouching models would suit them well I think!

The jump pack troops with heavy weapons always seemed a novel yet useless option for them in my mind, and I never have seen a player use them, mind I have only played them twice (:wtf: )

I do love the Dark Eldar but deffinitaly agre they need a makeover!

Warlord Kyle
29-10-2006, 04:46
Right now the de look a little like humans in form fitting tin foil, the models need to appear a little demonic to inspirt the fear they deserve:D Also the wariors should get an extra attack seeing as how the rifles have massive blades on them as do the warriors them selves.
I like jetbikes the way they are but maybe a splinter cannon weapons choice.
Perhaps give the mandrakes a special deep strike move like the lictor.
The beast master should have the wych dodge ability and the warp beast models need to enspirt fear and a demonic esenese.
Also incubi and the male de lord could look so much better.
Scourges would become useful with distintagrators, using them as a 5 man squad with 4 splinter cannons has not many uses.
Wyches should be the same size as the rest of the de, no matter what drgs they are taking.
Also, Grotesques should have upgrades like extra apendages or enhanced strength or intellegence and loose the stupid rule.

JumiKnightZero
30-10-2006, 22:17
I'm pretty happy with them the way they are now. I'd really like my raiders to be able to have pistols/ccws though. Though I think that every single person would say that. Dark Eldar are an awesome army, and I don't see many ways of sticking with the whole hitting hard and getting the hell outta there deal and still screwing them up. Except making them Chaos Eldar, but I'm confident they wouldn't do that. There would be way too many uprisings..

malketh the witch king
30-10-2006, 22:36
iwould like to see better cover art on the codex, maybe like a battle scene like in the space marines or tau one. i would definatly like to see better minis and some more options to the armt list

Varath- Lord Impaler
31-10-2006, 02:26
DONT TOUCH INCUBI OR RAIDERS OR WYTCHES!

Now thats out of the way.

Make more bonuses for capturing and more of an emphasis on it.

Lord, should be able to upgrade to Incubi armour IF he takes a unit of them.

Mandrakes should be able to scout. and take a mandrake champ. POISON!! their name is poison, they use poisons, why cant they take it?!

Warriors need an assault weapon, i want no heavy or rapid fire weapon in the list, everyone should be able to move and shoot at full capacity.

more troops options?

Warp beasts, Daemonic save, nuff said.

Jetbikes, possibly being able to charge with their turboboost? Slave snares should add attacks

Hellions. perhaps they never charge, they can get charged but the book says that they sweep over crowds lopping off heads. maybe they pass over units causing a large amount of shooting and combat hits and passing out the other side not actually ending up in combat?

Scourges, move 'n' shoot.

talos, nothing much, maybe more variance?

just off the top of my head these are.

Dais
31-10-2006, 05:43
i have to disagree with the wyches and incubi not needing new models. they are done well by DE standard but could be done so much better. give all incubi all those cool coats and make all the wyches female(craftworlders did it with banshees), and at least make their arms seperate for more poses. the codex only needs a few tweeks and alot of model and background support.
its amazing such an unsupported and old codex can still stand up so well, they did alot right and shouldnt overdo it on the changes. keep the rules changes to a minimum like they did with tau. and model support up to marines.

Horusaurus
31-10-2006, 06:34
The names of their weapons need to change. "Blaster" and "Shredder" are seriously **** and no where near sinister.
I agree. They sound like they were named by a hyperactive 12 yr old.

The Dude
31-10-2006, 06:36
Niether do grotesques, but that's a haemonculus thing. The haemonculi units are the ones that are supposed to be slow and tough - it's a defining characteristic of that 'faction' within the Dark Eldar.

Yes, and it's the idea of the different Factions in Dark Eldar society that I would like to see explored in more depth, both in the rules, and the background.

I've talked about my ideas on this before on another thread, and I'm already late leaving work, so I won't repeat them here, but I'd like to see the overall structure of the Codex geared towards allowing pure Wytch, Homonculus, or Cabal forces, or a mixture, without resorting to doctrines or sub-lists. Just like the new Eldar Dex allows Aspect, Wraith, and Guardian heavy forces or a mixture.

RampagingRavener
31-10-2006, 07:21
give all incubi all those cool coats

Leave the Trechcoat Incubi for Vext's personal goons, methinks. Makes them stand out more. Though I don't want the Incubi changed at all.


and make all the wyches female

Dark Eldar are not Dark Elves, Wyches are not Witch Elves. Male Wyches as well as Female ones as well, please. But they do need a redo.

Souleater
31-10-2006, 12:20
I like the male Wyches. You're just jealous of them! :D

Oh, and if we did that, we'd have to make all the Incubi male, too.

(Simpering afteer those craftworld plebs...pfffttt!)

Also would like to see the long coats kept for Incubi Masters, it's a great way to distinguish them from the normal Incubi.

And no Chaos Eldar!

EDIT: There's nothing wrong with Blaster (it's descriptive) or Shredder (ditto).

Speaking of which, I think disintegrators would be OTT in Warrior and Scourge squads. The former already have DLs for 10pts, and the later should be able to take Blasters instead of the Dark Lances. That would be more in keeping with their move and fire nature.

Wraith Phoenix
31-10-2006, 13:35
Mandrakes: Lose pistol, give poison attack (or rending on the charge), use hidden setup rules.

Wyches: Stay as they are but move them to Troops.

Grotesques: Give selection of Toxin based upgrades (and while your at it, increase weapon options for Haemonculi).

And new models (I would sugest, new plastic warriors, plastic wyches, plastic Talos and maybe a new vehicle).

LarryS
31-10-2006, 14:29
I'm still of the opinion that the craftworld guardians and dark eldar warriors need to meet up and exchange rifles. Guardians need a rapid fire weapon, since they don't need to be charging into HtH - especiallly while towing a heavy weapon around. DE warriors need an assault basic weapon, since charging into HtH is more in character for them. Maybe blades to make it count as 2 CC weapons like the kroot long rifle?

Souleater
31-10-2006, 14:50
Dark Eldar do not need Rending. Poison would be perfect (wound on 4+) rending lets them kill Wraithlords and take on Tanks.

Yes, the splinter Rifle shurikein catapult swap would be ideal

Souleater
02-11-2006, 14:35
Just got the Craftworld Eldar Dex (spit) as I wanted intelligence on the vagabond's military strengths.

I was interested to see how much the DE would be mentioned in the Codex. I was of course hoping that there would be mor eallong the lines of 'both branches hate She Who Thirsts' but frankly what I've seen looks like we could end up as Pink and Lime Pirates, if you catch my drift.

We're described by the Dying Ones as 'depraved and vicious pirates intent on bloody thirsty raiding'.

I appreicate the flattery of course, but a later section says: 'Preying upon all others, the Dark Eldar are a violent reminder of the depths to which Eldar society plummeted.'

I hope this is just referring to our little murderous rampages, and not to some plan of painting us as followers of She Who Thirsts.

Oh, and some special messages to the new craftworlds:

Lugganath - Bring it on.
Altansar - You're kill on sight, you corrupted fools.
Iybraesil - Are you mad? Leave it!

Edit: apolgies for the double post

Gimp
03-11-2006, 14:04
Maybe one could field slaves as cannon fodder or meat shields.

Sandals
03-11-2006, 14:26
i don't think cannon fodder is the dark eldar way personally. slaves are of much more use as soul syphons rather than bullet stoppers.

personally i don't think they need that much from the rules POV. warriors are fine as is, radier squads also (but it would be nice to get that second blaster - never going to happen!)
Wyches are almost perfect. they are potentially one of the best combat units in the game, but if shot they are dead.
Lords are still very, very hard, but more wargear options would be nice. i believe incubi armour has been suggested, losing fleet wouldn't be so bad if he had a bodyguard with the same armour as him.

the major changes need to be in the units that are used less often - mandrakes, scourges, helions, grotesques (but these could stay as is and i wouldn't mind too much. maybe a point off the cost?) and maybe another tank would be nice.

if i get a chance i'll do some trial rules for what i think mandrakes and the rest should be, and see what people think.

Souleater
03-11-2006, 14:54
[QUOTE=Sandals;1051801]i don't think cannon fodder is the dark eldar way personally. QUOTE]

I don't know, given DE armour and the ablative Warrior-Around-DL squads it seems to be the way they are played.

Also the fluff describes them as attacking heedless of loses.

Kriegsherr
03-11-2006, 15:37
[QUOTE=Sandals;1051801]i don't think cannon fodder is the dark eldar way personally. QUOTE]

I don't know, given DE armour and the ablative Warrior-Around-DL squads it seems to be the way they are played.

Also the fluff describes them as attacking heedless of loses.

Hmm... The fluff does the same with marines, yet if you run the numbers any marine chapter would have left maybe one or two companies at best after each battle...

The DE seem to suffer from the same fluff paradoxon... There seem to be a very limited number of DE, yet they don't care about losses.

Maybe the slaves on the TT are the way to go as it save some precious DE lifes... or make them even more sneaky and clever than they are now fluffwise (and maybe even rulewise?)

Sandals
03-11-2006, 16:35
right then. as promised, some more indepth ideas for some of the lesser used DE units, starting with Mandrakes.

first off, i think they are going to have to stay as Elites. this means they are going to have to compete with units such as Wyches for space on the FOC. i don't want them to end up better than wyches, as they serve a very different role, but i would like to see the choice between them as something other than academic.

first off, their special deployment rule is great, and very characterful, but i feel they should be able to deploy normally if they wished. if this option is chosen, then i feel they should have the Scouts and Infiltrate USR applied to them. i can't think of many times this would be the preferable way of deploying them, but the option would be nice. maybe a points reduction overall then the option to buy one of these as an upgrade?

second, there needs to be some sort of Mandrake Champion upgrade. most other units in the game have this option, so it makes sense for Mandrakes to have it too. i would agree to not letting them have the portal, that is just too effective, but a power weapon or an agoniser (if only ;) ) would help them out. maybe @ +10 points for the champ, with +1 attack and access to the armoury.

some of the other options banded around on this thread would be nice, but i think adding something like poison may be just too effective. if it is added, then keeping it as a squad upgrade is the best bet. then it is the players choice to have it or not. i would, however, like to see the option of grenades for them. plasma grenades would be the obvios ones, but i don't know if haywire maybe too overpowered. if they do get them, the wyches costs seem to to be the most appropriate to use.


so, this is what i would suggest:

Madrakes - Elite choice

WS 4 BS 4 S 3 T 3 W 1 I 5 A 1 Ld 8 Sv 5+

Points/model: 12

Squad: A Mandrake Squad consists of between 5 and 10 Mandrakes

Weapons:Splinter Pistol and CCW

Options: The entire squad must choose one of the following deployment methods and pay the appropriate points cost -
Hidden Deployment @ 3 points per model
Infiltrate and Scout USR's @ 4 points per model
All models in the squad may be armed with Plasma Grenades @ +1point per model and/or with Haywire Grenades @ +4 points per model.

Character: One Mandrake may be upgraded to a Mandrake Champion for +10 points. The Mandrake Champion gains +1 attack on his profile and may choose additional items from the armoury, with the following exceptions - Webway Portal, Helion Skyboard, Reaver Jetbike, all Arcane Wargear.

Specail Rules:
Shadow Skinned - As Codex
Hidden Deployment - As Codex


this is the first draft, and many of the options are theoretical at this stage. I guessed at about 3 points for the Hidden deployment cost, as 12 points doesn't seem unreasonable for that statline and options, however the Infiltrate and Scout will make them very effective, and it may need to be increased in cost. the points for the grenades have been taken from the Wych entry, as they are the closest to an assault unit i can find.
nothing has been playtested. if people want to use them, please report back here and let me know what you think.

lordmetroid
03-11-2006, 16:48
I expect a complete overhaul of the model range! I love the background story and atmosphere of the army but the models doesn't make it for me. I would also like some more coherency in the army.

Dark_Element
03-11-2006, 17:08
Give us expanded Homonculus army option (twisted experiment slaves - variant Talos - and Corrupted Wrathbone).

Make different kinds of warp beasts (choose the hounds - or big winged monsters - or hulking terrors) if winged, give that slaver a skyboard!

Fix the jetbikes to their rightfull place as fastest in 40K.

Get rid of entanglement on raiders (com'on, that hurts us more than any other army).

Reduce the points cost on WWP's.

Raven run - like the Speed Freaks have fightabomber run.

More fluff.

-DE

-DE

Sandals
03-11-2006, 17:19
Give us expanded Homonculus army option (twisted experiment slaves - variant Talos - and Corrupted Wrathbone).

i suppose this is an interesting option. certainly they need some expansion fluff wise, but i'm not so sure about more army choices - stops it being DE then really.


Make different kinds of warp beasts (choose the hounds - or big winged monsters - or hulking terrors) if winged, give that slaver a skyboard!

doubt it. although a bigger squad option wouldn't hurt...


Fix the jetbikes to their rightfull place as fastest in 40K.

again, unlikely. they seem to be moving away from all sorts of different movement modes, and i think that leaving them as they are 9for speed anyway!) is fine. maybe up their save so they are more useful when they turboboost?


Get rid of entanglement on raiders (com'on, that hurts us more than any other army).

never going to happen. hurts us more? yeah, but open topped means we can move and charge, something only orks can do, and we are better at it! plus, we can't have one rule for us and one for them if they are in the rulebook. although maybe a vehicle upgrade to remove the reroll wound option as they are used to it blowing up? much like Truk boyz special rule.


Reduce the points cost on WWP's.

i think they are fine. expensive and risky, but potentially a game winner.


Raven run - like the Speed Freaks have fightabomber run.

should we look for everything something else has and want our version? i think it is characterful for orks, but not for DE. and if we get it then every army has flyers, why shouldn't they?


More fluff.

-DE


seconded!

Dark_Element
03-11-2006, 19:06
I agree and disagree.
My points:

Homonculus army - maybe it's not like a "standard" DE army.
More of a Dark City torture chamber brought to the battle field.
After all - Fabius Bile likes to see his "creations" tested - wouldn't the Homonculus be the same way (they are way more twisted and skilled than Fabius). I see this as a possible mad scientist meets Hellraiser.
Very cool. Very Evil. Very DE.

Warp Beast variants - why would the warp only produce hound like warpbeasts? The warp, with all it's variety?

Jetbikes - Ok I agree here. It's just a bummer because it's GW designers being lazy that all bikes do turbo now. You're probably right and they won't get faster. One hope I can is they can "run thru" an enemy squad at turbo and lop off limbs as they go. That would be cool.

Entanglement - agree and disagree. Many people I've talked to won't use their raiders anymore (or at least to a lesser extent). I'm relectant to use them myself, and since raiders are a big chunk of money (most DE armies have several) the lost revenue for GW would be too great.

WWP's - They can stay the same if they let us move from one portal to the next. DE's were suppost to be the master of the webway. More and more the CW's are being included in it. There must be a difference. After all, the webway was the highway of the Eldar. The CW's were pansies and ran way (not in the webway), pretty much abandoning the true Eldar way of life.
CW's are like the Amish - and the DE are like Americans: The Amish get it done in their own way but it would be easier with machines and power - and Americans are in planes flying around. An Amish can get into a plane if he/she has to, but doesn't like to.

Raven run - Ok, this one is unique. The DE jump out of the webway, attack a target from the air until it's pretty wasted, land, finish the rest, and jump back into the webway. So if we have all these air fighters, used more than any other army (according to Imperial Armor) - why isn't this replicted in the game? Sure it could be a little "copycat" - but then when do DE care about fighting fair?

-DE

Max_Killfactor
03-11-2006, 22:09
I don't like the idea of Incubi armor for a Lord, I don't think it makes much sense from a background perspective. I'd rather see Arhra get some rules and then we could use him if we wanted a lord with a reliable save. I could see giving a lord a 4+ normal save, but not Incubi armor. From the limited background we have, I get the impression that you can't just wear Incubi armor... they're like our aspect warriors, you have to be a part of them and earn it. As far as we know there's only one lord of the Incubi, Arhra.

Other than that, I agree with what has been discussed. I don't want a complete rule overhaul, I really like the way this list works, just new models and a reason to take some of the less popular units.

Even though I know it's at least 2 years off, I can't wait until we have a real codex.

Acolyte of Bli'l'ab
03-11-2006, 22:16
Personally I dislike the image of this army, the models to me just look like "Chaos Eldar", which is boring, they should have a more defined/unique look IMO. Other than that, I dont mind them at all, they have their place in 40k.

Curufew
05-11-2006, 14:30
Is it good to start DE now?

I find them rather interesting

lordmetroid
05-11-2006, 14:45
Sure, I don't see why it wouldn't be good to start them now. I have no idea when they will be redone and hence I assume it might take a while.

Gen_eV
05-11-2006, 16:24
There are just a couple of things I'd like to see changed for the new DE codex:

Make all Scourge weaponry assault, possibly by cutting down the Dark Lance to a new weapon, 18", AP3 for example?
Extra 'Special' weapons in raider squads, so they either have 1 special/1 'heavy', or 2 'special's. (with extra cost for the 2nd special, of course.)
Have the Splinter Rifle grant its user True Grit - counts as 2 CCWs, but as they don't get the charge bonus, they're not turned into assault troops.

malika
05-11-2006, 16:38
We have some threads at the Anargo Sector Project which could relate to this:

The Dark Eldar requirement for souls...? (http://anargo-sector.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=937)

Dark Eldar, what how when who? (includes some cultural ideas) (http://anargo-sector.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=219)

Revising the Dark Eldar image (artwork, fiction & models) (http://anargo-sector.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=452)

Artwork: Dark eldar armortest (http://anargo-sector.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=348)

We are trying to work out the Dark Eldar in such a way that they are still what they are (not Chaos Eldar) but are more than mere S&M Eldar.

aylw
09-11-2006, 04:41
Curufew, Yeah, now's a good time as any to start. BUT! Only if you want to convert the majority of your army. The current Dark Eldar Range looks more like it's from the 80's than from all the cool looking 21st century model ranges.

I agree with the obvious: #1 priority, NEW MODELS!!! That is really all it would take to bring the Dark Eldar back in style. As for update to codex, some troops STILL need improvement (akin to what the wyches got), a bit more choice would be nice, and a new squad choice or two would be great, with a few new wargear options.

1) Remove the option of a wych leader. It doesn't make make much sense fluff-wise, and is redundant. Cabals rule Commorragh, and this should be emphasised with the badass lord. Dracons should add +1 attack (to 3), so they're like every other second-rank commander in WH40k.

2) Haemonculae - Really, all they need is another weapons choice or two. They're already pretty darned close to perfect.

3) Grotesques - either reduce their points or give them another attack. They never win an attack except against IG. Or better, both. I think the idea of "upgradable" is a good idea. 12-13pts base, +3pts for either +1 attack, +1 str, +1WS, 6+ INV in CC and +1 I in close combat. Perhaps add "Crazed!" and "STUPID!" and make them roll a D6 each turn. Or you could give them drugs, since wyches have that new +4sv and wych weapons to differentiate them.

4) Mandrakes: Pts cost reduction, Upgrade to 4+ 1 attack poison.

5) Bikes: Give 'em Eldar Jetbike rule.

6) Hellions: Allow them to shoot and charge into combat in same turn (IE doesn't count as rapid fire), reduce points. Remove 0-1 rule.

5) Talos: Allow some modification, 8 strength, and Make a monstrous creature and remove the silly +1 strength per hit vs Armour rule. Make gun better (stronger, higher AP or 2D6 Shots), or reduce cost a smidge.

6) Scourges: cheapen Splintercannon upgrade, give them blaster/shredder upgrade. allow fof.

7) Oh yeah, Warp Beasts: 5+ inv, 3-10 squad size.

8) A new cabal and new haemonculae unit (Vyper with 2 splintercannon/blaster/shredders, large 2W jetbikes that have slave snares off the top of my head)

9) I hate to say it, but reduce incubi costs by 1 pt or 2. Chalk it up to WH40k inflation.

10) And, lastly, I think it's fairly clear that blasters should be increased in pts across the board! You can tell this when almost every unit that can take them, does, to maximum allowed number. A couple of pts should do it, maybe chop some pts off shredders, and make them the same cost.

And then, make an AWESOME fluff and new Models section showing off the AMAZING new models by Jes Goodwin!!! YAY :)

-Aylw
P.S. In hindsight, I may have said something confusing. I'd just like to say that the Jes Goodwin remark is WISHFUL THINKING, I'm not trying to dash anyone's dreams when they find out the new models are made by nobody, because they probably will never exist.

sjap98
09-11-2006, 12:08
Is it good to start DE now?

I find them rather interesting

...And you wil find huge amounts of them for cheap (they used to come with the 3rd edition box, from, what was it, 1998?). A lot of people never played them, just have them laying around in sprues.

Take care,
Sjap.

Sybaronde
09-11-2006, 13:33
In my opinion, the Dark Eldar should be shaped a bit like the Ulthwé Strike Force. If they are supposed to be a raiding force, then the army selection and deployment manner should represent this more clearly.

aylw
10-11-2006, 04:45
Sybaronde, no one is talking about a complete overhaul of the Dark Eldar. They play fine, VERY MUCH like a raiding force. Well, aside from the fact that all their transports are inevitably blown away by the end of the game. Maybe allowing a Ravager a transport option?

ncc_drkstar
10-11-2006, 08:06
what is the typical strategy with the DE? I hear that they just get blown away, and are too weak for much of anything, other then being quick.

Bloodknight
10-11-2006, 09:53
Well, a typical tactic is to run up on the field, drop 2 portals and assault the crap out of anything on the board (DE have some of the best close combat specialists in the game). Another tactic was the Raider rush, also assaulty, which IMO doesn´t really work anymore due to entangling and the hugeness of their vehicles (hard to hide). 3rd tactic is to shoot the crap out of your opponent´s army. Works best against Space Marines, because a 1750 DE army can hold over 40 S7-8 AP2 guns with BS4 in addition to several Assault 4 "Bolters" and masses of splinter rifles (a hellgun).

RampagingRavener
10-11-2006, 11:35
what is the typical strategy with the DE? I hear that they just get blown away, and are too weak for much of anything, other then being quick.

You hear wrong.

They're probably the fastest army in the game-you can redeply onto the other side of the board within one or two turns if you move flat out, and while they are fragile this allows them to move out of LoS and Range of enemy guns. I know I've had games where I've sent two Raiders off as a diversion, drawn part of the enemy away, then had those two Raiders fly to the other side of the table where the rest of the squads are dismounting to assault and hit them next turn. No other army can do that, other than perhaps Speed Freeks and they can't fly over terrain.

They are very, very good in assault. St3? Yea, fine. I'll take I5 over st4 any day of the week. Combine that with Squad leaders able to do a lot of damage singlehandedly, Wyches which will go through almost anything in a turn or two of combat and, IMO, some of the best combat characters in the game and one of the best retinues (Incubi can and will destroy everything they touch) you can get, and back that up with dirt-cheap and plentiful Anti-tank fire from minimum sized Warrior squads, Raiders and Ravagers and they are certainly not "too weak for much of anything".

RedShirt
10-11-2006, 23:17
^^^^^
Roger that!

Sybaronde
11-11-2006, 00:03
Sybaronde, no one is talking about a complete overhaul of the Dark Eldar. They play fine, VERY MUCH like a raiding force. Well, aside from the fact that all their transports are inevitably blown away by the end of the game. Maybe allowing a Ravager a transport option?

Indeed, but the problem is that they play even better as a lance force of death against most MEQs.

In my oppinion, poking them towards the Ulthwé Strike Force isn't anywhere near a complete overhaul. They already have wraithgates, all they need are some refined specialist units (poison to mandrakes, for example), perhaps a comparative to a Vyper and a rule which sais that DE warriors can't regroup after loosing more then 25% of their starting strength.

Vashalgrim
11-11-2006, 00:08
From what I hear, some new wargear would be nice. The only DE player I know talks about some strange doll that he can take.

Bloodknight
11-11-2006, 00:12
@Sybaronde: I am not too keen on that morale rule. As it is, Dark Eldar already have the worst morale in the game and run all the time - why hamper them even more?

Sybaronde
11-11-2006, 00:19
@Sybaronde: I am not too keen on that morale rule. As it is, Dark Eldar already have the worst morale in the game and run all the time - why hamper them even more?

I know it sounds harsh, but I think it would bring more focus on actual raiding and not swarming a table quarter with 120 Dark Eldar Warriors. There could be a patch on the wound rule that sais that any DE model that retreats through a wraithgate counts as victory points for the DE player.

I mean, they are light infantry, but the shouldn't be fielded to look pretty when battle cannon shells start pounding into the masses of DE warriors.

Bloodknight
11-11-2006, 00:55
Well, they´d have to be able to inflict more damage in less time then. I also think that the slave capturing rule should be changed into "every slain enemy model counts as slave", just to make it a bit more worthwhile.

Sybaronde
11-11-2006, 01:00
Well, they´d have to be able to inflict more damage in less time then. I also think that the slave capturing rule should be changed into "every slain enemy model counts as slave", just to make it a bit more worthwhile.

Indeed, though it might just be enough with a Assault 1 version of a lasblaster as found on the Swooping Hawks from the Eldar Codex.

RedShirt
11-11-2006, 20:42
I'd just like the slave rule to actually work against marines! Why is it that Marines are the only army that requires slave snares as the only means in which to take them as slaves?

Sandals
12-11-2006, 00:38
the slave rules do work against marines, it's just harder as they do't run away.

you still get the dice roll to see if you capture them if you kill them in combat, and if they do fail their Ld test and are caught, and that die through No Retreat are captured.

pretty simple!


i really hope the slave rules stay in the list in some form. it's very characterful and in many situations can be the difference between a draw and a win!

Warlord Kyle
12-11-2006, 05:30
What are those cloak people are talking about for Incubi?
Also is there any proof the new codex for de is coming out in roughly 2 year?
I think scourges should be slightly cheaper and have dark lances that are assult.
Also perhaps mandrakes could have a deep strike like lictors:D
Looking at the de lords, both male and female comparing their armour to a warrior i think they should get a 4+ save.
Also the wyches are out of proportion, they are bigger then the warrios like the wyches legs are thicker then a warrior in armor, that ain't natural no matter what steroid coaktail they are being force fed.

Asentaja
12-11-2006, 09:58
Give Warriors some bonus for all those blades they carry around. +1 attack or strength.

Poison for Mandrakes and perhaps a leader option to the unit. No WWP to the leader though...

Making Grotesque more usefull perhaps.

Jetbikes should get that +1 attack which everyone else already get for spiked bikes.

Buff Scourges.

More vehicle upgrades or maybe make the old ones worth of taking.

Soul seeker ammunation should affect the whole squad and could be used with splinter cannons as well.

More weapons?

New models!

Dark Eldar attack where the enemy least expects. Something to represent this, maybe affecting the enemy deployment or the "who goes first" -roll.

akamanah
12-11-2006, 10:05
as a person that doesn't play DE,i need something that will attract me to it and thats new units and variable styles of play in the DE theme.i think they need more HQ's.something to base a army variant on like a whyche queen or a master hommunculi.i could see master hommunculi having special units they could buy as hommunculi masterworks(like guys with 4 arms or giant grotesques).i'd like to see beastmasters take more than just warp beasts.thay could open up the whole WFB range of monsters to be pit beasts.points costs to the scale of the beasts with a certain number of upgradable characteristics(horns,fire breath,flying,etc...)determined by it's size.i'd like to see a DE vyper equivelent piloted by warriors.more wargear is always nice and upgradable sgt types for more units.in my opinion all the model range could redone,not cause they look any worse than other overlooked armys but just to bring them up to current GW quality.if you like the older models it's not like you have to stop using them.i got more ideas but i'm to tired to type the rest out.

cerealkiller195
12-11-2006, 16:37
dark eldar were teh first army i started (because they were in the 3rd ed box) but also because i liked their story line. I dropped them a couple months in and started orks soon after, an army that has ALWAYS kept my fascination even after all these years but thats for another thread.

Some of my suggestions would be:
Mandrakes- give them poison would make sense as they can wound most anything (or atleast find a way to wound it). They should have the "scout" special rule and their rules should be fixed. They should be able to infiltrate and fix their special movement (they can choose either or not both at the same time).

Reavers: hit and run would work also teh suggestions of spiky bikes for the +1 attack would be excellent. I imagine them to skim by with chains of flail making a quick dashing attack. I would say maybe furious charge but coupled w/ the combat drugs that might be over the top.

Warriors: give them teh option for ccws & pistols, would give them more versatility atleast looks wise. No one is saying that it's mandatory TO give them that. I'm sure existing players would still use most of their splinter rifle armed warriors.

Scourges: blasters would make them a great unit, as it is i never understood what a "mobile" unit was doing w/ heavy weapons....

Warp Beasts: yeh an invulnerable saving throw would be good. Failing that just a weaker form of dodge, ditto w/ teh beastmaster.

Talos: yes it needs to go a bit faster, as it stands if i doesn't come via wwp it almost never comes. I can see the point that everything from that cult is supposed to be slow but strong so i'm undecided which route to take. For some reason i can see it emanating a -1 leadership to models near 6-12in. Because of the choir of tortured victims?

haemonculus: give them more options, maybe varying levels?

grotesques: more customizable?

IN general: models of course will have to revamped but thats the overall sentiment. New art less bastard children of chaos more their own thing. Heck if tehy just streamlined the eldar a bit more that shouldn't be that far off from dark eldar. Just lay off the massive amount of skulls to signify they are "evil".