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jesters89
28-10-2006, 02:36
A quick question (I hope):

I charge an enemy and they flee from the charge-- I have sufficient movement to catch them despite their flee move. However, there is another unit just behind them that my charge move brings me into contact with. The original fleeing unit has sufficient movement to move beyond the unit I overrun into per the enemy in the way rule. Given that I had enough movement to catch the original fleeing unit, but there is a unit I hit per enemy in the way, do I destroy the fleeing unit (in a similar fashion to the flee and pursuit rolls following a failed break test) and overrun into the new enemy?

In short:
1) An enemy flees from my charge
2) I have enough movement to kill them after their flee roll
3) Enemy flees beyond a NEW enemy who is now in the trajectory of my charge

Do I destroy the fleeing enemy as well as overrun into the new enemy per enemy in the way? This is what I would assume given the flee rules for break tests, but I'd love a definitive answer.

I hope I articulated the situation well enough. Thanks in advance.
Best,
J

intellectawe
28-10-2006, 04:15
The first unit would be destroyed and you now can charge into the second unit, depending on their reaction after the first unit is destroyed.

jesters89
28-10-2006, 05:34
Where is Festus when you need him?

Festus
28-10-2006, 07:21
Hi

Here!

You will not destoy the fleeing enemy, as he withdraws behind the sheltering unit (this is in a charge. In a break-pursuit-scenario, you would only compare the dice rolls and either catch and destroy the fleeing unit or it gets away simply by the numbers).

Here, in a flight from a charge, the fleeing unit moves its full rolled distance, and if you haven't gotten to it after the charge is completed, it gets away.

Greetings
Festus

DeathlessDraich
28-10-2006, 11:13
pg 41: "Fleeing units that would otherwise end up on top of friendly unit are placed beyond etc"

Unfortunately this is under the flight from Break tests rules and not under flight from charges as Festus correctly pointed out.

There is no mention that it is permissible for flight from charges. I'm not sure whether using it simplifies matters or gives an unfair advantage to the fleers.

I've made the same mistake of mixing the 2 different flee rules in a previous discussion, jesters89. There might be a rule somewhere else I might have overlooked, if so please quote.

The only addition to the fleeing rules from charges, on pg 19 and 22, which the rules suggest can be added to the rules is on pg 46 - Subsequent actions of fleeing troops "once charges have been declared etc".

Applying the above to your scenario. The fleeing unit stops at the friendly unit and is consequently destroyed while the chargers encounter 'Enemy in the way'.

Tutore
28-10-2006, 13:43
I would rather think the first unit is destroyed. But I am quite unsure.

intellectawe
28-10-2006, 15:32
Yup. The 1st enemy unit is destroyed because it couldn't get away. And the second unit can now be charged if the owner wishes to, otherwise it would stop an inch from the second unit.

There is no friendly hoping when reacting to a charge normally. The first unit stops an inch away from the second unit, and in the posters example, the first unit would then be destroyed.

So I dont know why you would need festus when I gave you the answer.

Festus
28-10-2006, 16:31
Hi

Oh guys, read your rulebooks:

No, it is not destroyed: Read p. 46 BRB: They will move through friendly troops (causing panic as they do so, if >US5).

WillFightForFood
28-10-2006, 21:45
There may be a simpler explanation in the movement order.

1. Declare charges and reactions.
2. Rally Fleeing Troops
3. Compulsory moves - you move fleeing units now. (PGs 19-20)
4. Move chargers.

The charge and the flee don't happen at the same time, unlike with breaking from combat where they do happen at the same time and the unit is cut down where they stand. The way this would seem is that simply having a greater movement than your opponent doesn't allow you to just cut that unit down. You actually have to catch the fleeing unit by maneuvering after it after the fleeing unit has moved.

jesters89
29-10-2006, 03:27
I meant no insult by summoning Festus. I just like how clear and concise his rules responses are.

"Hi.
Page Number.
Greetings,
Festus."

As it turns out, willfightforfood was the opponent when this came up. Unfortunately, during our game, neither of us had the insight he is now demonstrating.

I think rather than debating, simply considering the order of the phases clears it up. Since the flee reaction does not occur simultaneously with the charge, the fleeing unit survives if an enemy is in the way of the charger (after taking the panic test that Festus alluded to). Despite the uncertainty, willfightforfood and I played it properly.

Thanks for your help folks.

DeathlessDraich
30-10-2006, 18:04
Hi

Oh guys, read your rulebooks:

No, it is not destroyed: Read p. 46 BRB: They will move through friendly troops (causing panic as they do so, if >US5).

Read the whole section before my last post and what I said previously still stands:



1) pg 41: "Fleeing units that would otherwise end up on top of friendly unit are placed beyond etc"

Unfortunately this is under the flight from Break tests rules and not under flight from charges as Festus correctly pointed out.

There is no mention that it is permissible for flight from charges..

The mechanism of being placed 'beyond a friendly unit it touches' appears only under fleeing from breaking rules.

There are 2 different sets of rules for fleeing from a charge and fleeing after being broken. Do the rules state they are the same as in the 6th? Unfortunately, no.


The only addition to the fleeing rules from charges, on pg 19 and 22, which the rules suggest can be added to the rules is on pg 46 - Subsequent actions of fleeing troops "once charges have been declared etc". .


Suggests and by no means a certainty.

This leaves the important question:

Can the rules for fleeing from failed break tests (pg 40 -46) be applied to fleeing as a charge response (pg19, 21, 22 and possibly 46)?
Certainly not ALL of it.

Therefore 2 interpretations are equally valid from the rules:
1) The unit is destroyed and EITW - this is RAW
2) The unit escapes beyond the EITW - this is based on an assumption

Festus
30-10-2006, 18:41
Hi

No assumption here: Fleeing is fleeing, fleeing troops will always behave in the same way, as outlined in the rules.

There is just one set of rules for what fleeing troops can and cannot do.

They can move through enemy of US<5, they can move through friends (and if they are US>5, they'll cause panic), they move away from the cause of the flight in a straight line, or they move towards the nearest table edge in a straight line (depending on the exact situation). They are destroyed if moving into enemies of US >5, they will *flee* as a reaction if sucessfully charged.

Did I forget anything? Oh yes, they will move 2D6" or 3D6", whichever is given by their base move, and are destroyed if forced to move into impassable terrain or the table edge.

It's easy, really.

Festus

WillFightForFood
30-10-2006, 18:54
Therefore 2 interpretations are equally valid from the rules:
1) The unit is destroyed and EITW - this is RAW
2) The unit escapes beyond the EITW - this is based on an assumption

You failed to read all the posts. Turn order is important here. Troops that are fleeing from a charge move before the chargers move, as opposed to pursuit on a breaking enemy where they move at the same time. If those fleeing troops have now moved in such a way as to be uncatchable by the charging unit it is a failed charge. If those fleeing units do not move far enough then they are destroyed - but you still have to be able to maneuver those chargers to come into contact with the fleeing unit at the end of its (the fleeing unit) move, else it has gotten away.

Thus if you flee through one of your own units and it doesn't break, then your opponent is going to be caught in one of two situations:
1. Use the Enemies in the way rule and charge into a new unit.
2. Have a failed charge and stop one inch short of any new units since the unit can no longer reach the fleeing unit and cannot get into combat without declaring a charge.

Festus
30-10-2006, 18:58
Hi

Turn order is important here.
Unfortunately this is not as important as you make it out to be: If a unit flees from a charge resulting from the use of the EitW rule, it happens at a different time (after the compulsory movement phase to be precise).

The exaxct point within the turn sequence does not make an iota of a difference, though, as this does not change the way fleeing units behave.

Festus

WillFightForFood
30-10-2006, 22:49
Hi

Unfortunately this is not as important as you make it out to be: If a unit flees from a charge resulting from the use of the EitW rule, it happens at a different time (after the compulsory movement phase to be precise).

The exaxct point within the turn sequence does not make an iota of a difference, though, as this does not change the way fleeing units behave.

Festus

Right, but the situation jesters was referring to was from the flee from original charge declaration. The originally charged unit should have moved its flee distance, then the charger should have moved its charge distance towards the fleeing unit, coming into contact with a new unit, preventing it from reaching the originally charged unit.

Pg 23 "After a unit has fled from the charge, it can happen that the chargers, as they make their full charge move straight after the intended target (or right through them!), run into another enemy that is in the way of their move. Note that this may happen even if the original target is now so far away that the charge has failed"

Perhaps turn order is the wrong phrase - "charge sequence" is more appropriate. For both a regular charge and an enemy in the way charge the sequence will be:
Declare charge
Declare reaction
Execute reaction (flee, stand and shoot)
Execute charge

In both situations the charge move or final contact between the chargers and the charged is going to come after the charge reaction has been fully executed. It doesn't matter if the charged unit would have been overtaken just based upon the numbers on flat ground with nothing in between, the charging unit must be able to physically come into contact with the charged unit, and the flee move may make that impossible if it places something in between the charged and the chargers (in this case a unit).

jesters89
30-10-2006, 23:07
Willfightforfood has it, I believe. I was blending together the rules for cutting down enemies after a failed breaktest and cutting down those who delcare a flee reaction to a charge. If one considers the order in which moves are executed it makes perfect sense that one must literally overtake the fleeing enemy during his/her charge. If an enemy is in the way, overtaking the fleeing unit is impossible.

This is different than enemies being automatically slain because a pursuit roll is greather than their flee roll.

grg3d
31-10-2006, 00:16
I have a question which is sorta on topic,

Unit A wants to charge unit B (they satsify all charge requriments: LOS, in range)
unit C (small 5 man unit) is broken and inbetween unit A & B but is not blocking LOS to unit B due to it being off center from unit B

Dose unit A get to destroy unit C(broken) as they charge into unit B?

Or did I get hosed on the call, meaning did they have to charge unit C first(which blocked some movement to unit B) which was in the charge path to unit B

bbbbbbbbbb
cc
aaaaaaaaaa

Or dose unit C due to being broken and not being charged stand still and get overruned into the ground as unit A charges into unit B?

mageith
31-10-2006, 00:40
I have a question which is sorta on topic,

Unit A wants to charge unit B (they satsify all charge requriments: LOS, in range)
unit C (small 5 man unit) is broken and inbetween unit A & B but is not blocking LOS to unit B due to it being off center from unit B

Dose unit A get to destroy unit C(broken) as they charge into unit B?

You mean like automatically? No.




Or did I get hosed on the call, meaning did they have to charge unit C first(which blocked some movement to unit B) which was in the charge path to unit B

Assuming you could reach unit "b" first or simultaneously with unit "c" then its a multiple target charge and both must make a reaction. "c" will flee, probably through "b" and get away unless "b" flees. Because "c" is 5 US it may panic b and you might get them both if the dice fall your way.

If b holds and you can't reach "b" first or simultaneously, its a failed charge.

Why not charge c? It will automatically flee out of the way and then you can charge (EITW) b. Or were you hoping to destroy both units?



bbbbbbbbbb
cc
aaaaaaaaaa

Or dose unit C due to being broken and not being charged stand still and get overruned into the ground as unit A charges into unit B?

No there is no automatic overrun into the ground. In order to contact and destroy a unit you must charge it.

DeathlessDraich
31-10-2006, 18:46
Hi

No assumption here: Fleeing is fleeing, fleeing troops will always behave in the same way always, as outlined in the rules.

There is just one set of rules for what fleeing troops can and cannot do.

Festus

Unfortunately they don't behave in the same way always.
For example:

1) A unit which flees from a break test flees by pivoting and moving away from the unit that broke it or the unit with the highest US that did so.
2) A unit which flees from a charger or chargers simply flee from the 1st declared charger not the unit with the highest US.
3) A unit which is already fleeing flees towards the nearest table edge if it fails to rally.

Directions are determined differently for the 3 types of fleeing. No similarities.

There are similarities as well for all 3:
1) The unit cannot use magic
2) It moves as a skirmish
etc.

Where do these similarities stop is determined by the rules. In the 6th the 2 flee sections are combined by the expression "as explained later". In the 7th it is not!

The important distinction I'm making is placing the fleeing unit beyond a friendly unit it lands on.

This rule is under the fleeing from break tests section

The question I've asked has been unanswered - Can this rule be used for units which flee from a charge? If so where in the rules does it say this?


WillfightforFood: Yes, I did read your posts. It is a tangential argument to mine and neither supports nor opposes it.

Festus
31-10-2006, 21:56
Unfortunately they don't behave in the same way always.
For example:

1) A unit which flees from a break test flees by pivoting and moving away from the unit that broke it or the unit with the highest US that did so.
2) A unit which flees from a charger or chargers simply flee from the 1st declared charger not the unit with the highest US...

Directions are determined differently for the 3 types of fleeing. No similarities.


Utter nonsense, if you care to read p.19 of your BRB: It is always away from the highest US in the first flee move, even if fleeing as a charge reaction. And it is always towards the nearest table edge after that.

It would be great if you at least read the rules you care to interpret.



There are similarities as well for all 3:
1) The unit cannot use magic
2) It moves as a skirmish
etc.


Those are not merely similarities, it is the very same process.



The question I've asked has been unanswered - Can this rule be used for units which flee from a charge? If so where in the rules does it say this?

If you care to read the rules literally, the fleeing unit will always go for 2D6 or 3D6", and it will neither be slowed down, will ignore anything in its way (even friendly and enemy units).

This is not the case: Fleeing units behave exactly like fleeing units. Ie. they will flee through friends and enemy units of US<5.

You know it, I know it, we all know it.

No surprise here...

Festus

DeathlessDraich
01-11-2006, 09:00
Utter nonsense, if you care to read p.19 of your BRB: It is always away from the highest US in the first flee move, even if fleeing as a charge reaction. And it is always towards the nearest table edge after that.

It would be great if you at least read the rules you care to interpret.



Those are not merely similarities, it is the very same process.


If you care to read the rules literally, the fleeing unit will always go for 2D6 or 3D6", and it will neither be slowed down, will ignore anything in its way (even friendly and enemy units).

This is not the case: Fleeing units behave exactly like fleeing units. Ie. they will flee through friends and enemy units of US<5.

You know it, I know it, we all know it.

No surprise here...

Festus

1) You haven't read my reply and if you have you've failed to understand it.
2) You're reverting to dogmatic reiteration in true Festus style:p

I'll leave the discussion unfinished if you don't mind.

Festus
01-11-2006, 10:05
Hi

No problem with an unfinished discussion from my corner :)

But...

1) I read and understood your reply(-ies)
2) I still don't see the difference between a *fleeing unit* and a *fleeing unit*, just because the rules given for it are on two different pages of the book.
So are the shooting and LoS rules, the hand-to-hand save and save rules, and the weapons and hand-to-hand rules.

If you don't mind, tell me where you see the difference between a *fleeing unit* and a *fleeing unit* ... I'll be only to happy to see it myself. I do however understand the difference between a *fleeing unit* and a *broken unit*, where the latter becomes the former once it managed to outrun its pursuers...


Festus