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Mordu22
28-10-2006, 04:00
It states that a Stardard bearer must be in the first row to give it's +1 combat bonus, if my front row is full of other chareters and i place my standard in the second row does it still give off it's other bonuses? i couldn't find anything in the book that would state other wise. did i miss something?

intellectawe
28-10-2006, 04:08
Standards must be placed in the front, always. There is no choice.

Mordu22
28-10-2006, 04:32
no page 80 states that "if all such models cannot fit into the gront rank, the player must place some of them into the second rank."
also, the fact that the rules state that a standard not in the front rank forgoes it's +1 combat bonus would make me asume that there is a possiblility for them not to be in the front rank, why would they need to state such a rule if it could never happen?

Gorbad Ironclaw
28-10-2006, 06:31
I can't remember how the rules for it are now, in regards to placement. But if it's the second rank, it's basically an expensive rank and file model. Same with characters. Put them in the second rank, and you can't use any of there special abiltiest, attack with them, cast magic, generate magic dice, use leadership, rerolls etc.

DeathlessDraich
28-10-2006, 10:47
You're right Mordu22:

pg80 Standards: "... must be placed in the front rank .... If all models cannot fit, the player must place some of them into the second rank" " Standards (in the 2nd rank) cannot take part in combat and some of the bonuses are lost..."


"A unit that has a standard bearer in its front rank adds +1 etc"

Nicely consistent with:

pg 73 Battle Std: " ceases to apply... if he is hiding at the back instead of fighting"

I think it's best to move the Musician to the 2nd rank if the front is overcrowded - the bonus for drawing combats is lost but not the +1 to rally. Alternatively moving a wizard to the 2nd rank might also be beneficial if his spells do not require LOS.

Flame
28-10-2006, 11:46
But he still couldnt cast them.

Gorbad Ironclaw
28-10-2006, 11:47
Look again. Unless they changed it, a wizard in a rear rank can't cast spells, can't dispel, and doesn't generate dice.

Tutore
28-10-2006, 13:39
no page 80 states that "if all such models cannot fit into the gront rank, the player must place some of them into the second rank."
also, the fact that the rules state that a standard not in the front rank forgoes it's +1 combat bonus would make me asume that there is a possiblility for them not to be in the front rank, why would they need to state such a rule if it could never happen?

Challenges perhaps, if he's the BSB.

Mordu22
28-10-2006, 14:34
In regards to BSB, it is possible for him to just stand behind my defense line and give off his RE-roll ability and anyother runes (MRof Grungi) with out accutally joining a unit correct?

Revlid
28-10-2006, 15:36
Re-roll within 12": Yes
+1CR: No
Other abilities that say "The unit" rather than "units within": No

intellectawe
28-10-2006, 15:38
Sorry, I was wrong.

A simple rule of thumb I foloow is that any character not in teh first rank can never do ANYTHING period. He becomes a rank and file goon. Unless the Character has a special rule, like the Lead From The Back that Skaven have. And of course, unless a rule states that the effect being given off doesnt have to be in teh first rank.

So yes, put your BS in the second rank if you have no room for him, but he know is just an expensive foot trooper doing nothing else.

DeathlessDraich
28-10-2006, 18:59
Look again. Unless they changed it, a wizard in a rear rank can't cast spells, can't dispel, and doesn't generate dice.

Hmm. pg 73: Does "use magic" mean "cast magic"?
I suppose it's close enough.
Skaven rules might still be the exception though.

I don't think however that "use magic" can include dispelling magic or not generating dispel dice which can be done by non magic-casters.

Gorbad Ironclaw
28-10-2006, 19:31
They changed the wording slightly I see. Before it was 'effectivly out of the game'. So it no longer supports not producing dice or dispelling. Howerver, he still can't do anything else.

The skaven rules only apply if you are in the rear rank, not if you are in the 2nd rank of a larger unit.

Mordu22
28-10-2006, 19:36
I still see no sign of a, lets say long beard Standard with master rune of Grungni, bieng in the second rank and still be able to use the runes power. Qoute "if such models cannott.....place some of them into second rank....Also SOME of the bonuses these models confer to the unit are lost,a s described below"
the only rule that the bonus states is lost for not bieng in the front rank is combat resolution. And once again if they lost all the bonuses would not the rules state that ALL bonuses are lost if placed in second rank and not SOME as the rules are written.
I would have to say that the MRof Grungni would still be in effect though the combat bonus is not. For the bonuses it makes since if your troops see ther standard try to shy from combat it will not make them fight as hard. Just because a rune is not in place X doesn't mean it would not work.

eldrak
29-10-2006, 00:06
Hmm, i think i have to agree with Mordu22 here. Seems like command groups only lose their basic abilities and not new ones gained from magic items when moved to the second rank.

Btw is there anyone else than me that finds it weird that a (spear armed or other) character in the second rank of a unit can't attack at all and so makes the unit lose an attack that a regular trooper could do in his place. You would want to place him in the 3d (or 4th for HE/pikes) rank when not having him in the front rank.

Mordu22
29-10-2006, 00:24
To further my point and defense of it, it only states that Charecters NOT in the front rank are unable to use magic or magic items, stardards "even though they have special rules, they are otherwise rank and file troopers in all repects"-hence are still able to use magic or magic items when not in the first rank as the rules only state that charecters may not use magic in ranks other than the first. So, a BSB thane would not be able to use it's reroll break or it's magic when not in the first rank, but a regular standard would be able to use it's magic effects with no combat bonus because it is rank and file