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Dark_Element
28-10-2006, 19:36
In 4th (just getting back into the game) I noticed that guess weapons aren't guess weapons anymore. They still have the stat - but it doesn't matter anymore.

What was the reasoning for this change?

I thought weapons being guess weapons was what made them fair.
One d6 scatter (or two pick the highest) isn't much of a chance rolling off.

Two D6 keep both would have been more realistic.

Oh I wish my DE had guess weapons now - but my Orks are happy!!!

-DE

starlight
28-10-2006, 19:42
Because some of us:angel: were so good at *guessing* that they became the most accurate weapons in our armies. This being quite different from the designers intent, a change was in order.:(

Gotchaye
28-10-2006, 19:47
Precisely - it's impossible to balance.

Anytime you leave the effectiveness of a unit up to the player's ability to determine objective facts, you're going to see tremendous variation in the effectiveness of the unit between players.

Some people have a hard time gauging distances over 24". If something's 38" away, they'll land somewhere between 32" and 44". Something like half to two thirds of their shots could completely miss the target.

Some people take the time to practice this skill, or they simply have a good sense for spatial relationships (or the ability to mark reference points and perform some quick math in their heads). They won't miss ever. Every pie plate is landing right in the middle of your squad.

It's also just a bit silly that it came down to actually 'guessing' the range. These aren't Fantasy Battle Cannons, these are supposed to be better than modern artillery batteries. Modern artillery comes down almost exactly where you want it to, and the only things you have to worry about are atmospheric conditions. The ability of the firer to guess the range doesn't matter at all to the accuracy of the shot.

Lord Humongous
28-10-2006, 19:51
It also greatly speeds up play, simplifies the rules, and is less open to abusive uses.
The increased accuracy compared to other editions (and I'd hardly say they are "accurate", given my luck at least) is partly offset by the new editions reduced effect on vehicles (half strength if hole not over hull) and the requirement that the template center be over an enemy model.

themagister
29-10-2006, 00:24
i thought it was just for a bit more fairness, i had an oppenant who had like, 10 orkk kannons, aand just fired all of them off, and wiped out my hive militia conscripts.

starlight
29-10-2006, 00:41
Except that Kannons fire normally using BS, Lobbas on the other hand are Guess weapons.........

Gensuke626
29-10-2006, 00:46
little from column A and alittle from column B. making it a placed weapon eliminates the wide gap between players like myself (Who had to take ranging shots the first turn or so, then make educated guesses from here.) and my friend who used to be able to pinpoint my general with a Basilisk every game on turn 1. Seriously. He was even scarier with mortars and other multi-shot (Per squad) Guess Weapons...

In making the use of barrage weapons standard like that, you eliminate the gap and thus make it "Fair" since everyone has the skill to place a template and roll.

Gensuke626
29-10-2006, 00:47
Except that Kannons fire normally using BS, Lobbas on the other hand are Guess weapons.........

if it was kannons vs conscript platoons, then I think they used Frag Shells...which run on Ordnance rules...so...Guess isn't an Issue...but scatter still is.

Lucifig
29-10-2006, 01:23
You don't need to be a spatial relationship wizard or sit in your basement testing yourself with a tape measure.

The fact that most tables are standard sized at 6'x4', it is trival to judge distances with such a reference literally right in front of you.

Gensuke626
29-10-2006, 01:32
You don't need to be a spatial relationship wizard or sit in your basement testing yourself with a tape measure.

The fact that most tables are standard sized at 6'x4', it is trival to judge distances with such a reference literally right in front of you.

you say that now...but you never watched my friend fire at diagonals. It's not like he put tanks and mortars in front of my units in lines parralel to the table edges...He put them behind cover in the corners and was able to guess ranges from there. I've tried it, it's ALOT harder.

Inq. Veltane
29-10-2006, 01:49
It honestly isn't that hard if you've had a few years practice with an Empire army where you were guessing ranges all the time. I could probably hit any marker to within 2" from anywhere on the table and thats far from spectacular. Some people just can't do it I know but most Vets can.

bigred
29-10-2006, 02:02
Yeah, you combine a couple of hours of practice moving models around a standard sized board (4x6), and add in some high school geometry, a tape measure and the old Guess Weapon rules were wicked.

Our playgroup had an Iron Warriors player who could drop that damn basilisk pieplate to within 1/2 inch. (I still have a vivid memory of a turn 1 shot "138.5 inches" directly onto my general's head! We used to play on big boards)

The old rules also allowed said badass guessers a full arsenal of dirty tricks such as "accidentally" mis-guessing into a close combat they know they were going to lose anyway.

-bigred

Bookwrak
29-10-2006, 05:28
I've also hear quite a few stories about people guessing really 'poorly' so that the template would miss the original target, and come down on units that were otherwise untargetable, such as CC. The new rules prevent that from occuring, unless the other is really close to the target and the scatter dice come up just right.

ss_cherubael
29-10-2006, 10:06
because people cheated with the distances and it was way too easy to do. thus rules had to be changed

Mrlemonjelly
29-10-2006, 10:37
But when did they change? Looking at my SM codex, the Whirlwind still has a G next to it. Was there an errata that changed this or does the Whirlwind still guess ranges?

Edit: As do Mortars, according to the rulebook.

Gaebriel
29-10-2006, 10:47
The 'G' is still there, but it now indicates the weapon being a barrage weapon - see the 4th edition ruebook. Should sensibly be 'B', or type 'barrage', but they didn't want to reprint all Codices so they stayed with the 'G'.

Helicon_One
29-10-2006, 10:48
That 'G' is to indicate that the weapon is indirect fire, not that you guess the range (not the most intuitive method, granted).

Ditto what everyone else says above - some players were absurdly accurate with their ranges so the system changed to level the playing field. In my opinion it went slightly too far and made indirect fire too precise, now everybody can guess perfectly down to the millimetre and land a template exactly where they want it, but at least its the same for all I guess.

Tim

Mrlemonjelly
29-10-2006, 14:43
That 'G' is to indicate that the weapon is indirect fire, not that you guess the range (not the most intuitive method, granted).

Ok then. It's not exactly clear, there's no mention of it anywhere in the rule book (unless I'm mistaken), so me and my friends just assumed that you guessed as normal.


Ditto what everyone else says above - some players were absurdly accurate with their ranges so the system changed to level the playing field.

All it takes is a bit of practice, or a tape measure when I go to the toilet :mad:

Brotherdraagor
29-10-2006, 15:20
Aye, but some of us mere mortals have other things to do with our time besides practice with tape measures. This is a hobby, and a hobby such as 40k shouldn't require a huge commitment (in my opinion). Some people (like myself) only play a few times a year and the rest of the time are concentrating on other things. I was never effected by third edition, I came in straight after Dawn Of War came out for pc, but a system for bombardment like that would have thrown me completely. I agree that the fourth edition rules make guess range weapons fairer, quicker and more casual gamer friendly.

Gaebriel
29-10-2006, 15:31
All it takes is a bit of practice, or a tape measure when I go to the toilet :mad:
Just curious, how would measuring ... something ... at the - toilet - help you at the game table? :D

TheSanityAssassin
29-10-2006, 15:32
another problem is alot of tables, such as the ones at our local club, which get transferred out to tourneys sometimes, are all modular, and so just by looking at the lines on the table you can be within an inch.

It just got to be to dominant. The scatter templates at least fairly divide it between devastating hits and misses, rather than say, an iron warriors player with 3 defilers and a bassy flattening everything in your army on turn 1.
It also eliminated the ability to easily hunt tanks with them, which isn't what they're intended for. The number of times I had a basilisk shell dropped directly on my land raider full of deathwing termies, and annihilating the whole squad was silly. Made experianced guard players who had an arty-heavy list almost impossible to beat.

Mrlemonjelly
29-10-2006, 16:48
Just curious, how would measuring ... something ... at the - toilet - help you at the game table? :D

Take what you know and multiply it (or divide it, haha!) :D

No, really, I meant my opponent would measure a distance when I wasn't looking or whatever, then pretend to guess.