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Bingo the Fun Monkey
29-10-2006, 17:41
Well, this is my first list using the new rules. As I'll be facing my regular Bretonnian opponent, I've basically constructed this list to combat him in the way i feel is the most rewarding.

CHARS:
Morgit da Scourge: orc warboss, akrit axe, talisman of protektyness, enchanted shield, light armor, iron gnashas.
Big Boss Bob: orc big boss, Best Basha, light armor, shield
Naggrit: night goblin shaman, 2nd lvl, staff of sneaky stealing
Kenny: goblin big boss, wolf, light armor, shield, lucky's dirk, brimstone bauble

CORE:
24 Big Uns: spears, shields, warbanner, command
24 Boyz: shields, cmd
25 Boyz: shields, cmd
12 Boyz: boss, 2 choppas
12 Boyz: boss, 2 choppas
12 Arrer boyz: bowz
20 Night Goblins: 3 fanatics
20 Night Goblins: bows, 3 fanatics
5 Wolfboyz: spears
5 Wolfboyz: spears
5 Wolfboyz: spears
5 Wolfboyz: spears

SPECIAL:
Wolf Chariot
Wolf Chariot
12 Ruglud's Armored Orcs

RARE:
Giant

my deployment will probably be based around the big uns and one of the two blocks of lads with choppas and shields in the middle. The arrer boyz will go in front of the boyz, adjacent to the unit of 20 night gobbos in front of the big 'uns. Adjacent to that unit of night gobbos is the other one, about 3-4" apart. Behind the last mentioned night gobbo unit will be a unit of boyz with 2 hand weapons. There will be a similar flanking detachment on the other side of this set up. Ruglud's will be close by as well. This setup is to ensure that the night gobbos/arrer boyz get charged and broken. the enemy will clearly overrun into the main blocks and, provided they are not in combat, they will provide the static CR and I can countercharge with the 2 hand weapon armed boyz in my own turn.

Everything else in the army is to ensure that his force hits me piecemeal. No more than two units in the same combat. With 6 18" charge ranges I should be able to harass and intercept and disrupt his battle line. The block of boyz that doesn't go into the middle will engage his infantry (if he has any).

As he doesn't take more than 3 pegasus knights i'm not too concerned about them...nothing the chariots or wolfboyz, or ruglud's crossbows or magic cannot handle. I took a goblin shaman for the first little waaagh spell that, while low strength, ignores armor. The sneaky stealin' staff should almost neuter his magic phase as well.

What's the giant for? He's accompanying the block of 25 boys and fumping (hopefully) some infantry. By the by, are the old metal giants (both marauder and 6th ed) still legal? I noticed the new giant has a longer base.

Thoughts? Opinions?

Von Wibble
29-10-2006, 18:13
Giants are great against Brets thanks to stubborn. They hurt knights and if not unlucky can handle a charge.

You are placing a lot of faith in your orc boys. A character led unit of 9 knights will get 2-3 kills for the character (a hero with some enhancing item/virtue), 2-3 kills from the knights and 1 from the horses. You won't get any back leading to you losing the combat by 5 (6 if your unit has taken any damage at all in the shooting phase). Thats a Ld 4 check for everyone apart from the big 'Uns. And lots of panic chacks for those small units. I'm not saying the plan is bad - its also what I'd do. But you need to be certain as to what the odds are before letting the knights charge in.

Spears on the big'uns? For 72 more points, upgrade to black orcs with shields. Then if the charge doesn't break through you have great weapons to really punish him, and of course your own Waaagh charge is scarier.

You can argue that your own character in the unit will get kills back. But I was conservative in that estimate - if the unit is questing knights or led by a lord / battle standard with banner of the lady its practically autobreak.

Wolf Riders are great against Brets - but not as fast cav. Combine 3 of the units, and give them all upgrades except bows. You have a unit that will get the charge, and has cr vs teh brets and numbers. with only a few attacks he won't kill many so you will win through (especially when you team up with the chariot). Your 4th unit will contain Kenny until he strikes, and can team up with the other chariot against pegasus knights/mounted squires.

Arrer boys - not bad but the doom diver is just 8pts more and you have the rare slot (this is >2000pts, right? otherwise no warboss!) It also ignores armour. If the brets have more than 1 unit of pegasus knights the doom diver can potentially take out his general.

Where to get the spare 80pts for the changes? I would suggest dropping the crossbows. They are expensive for the shooting ability they get, and they are too small a unit hold the charge. As I don't know the precise cost I expect there is some change- enough for some snotlings (great for redirecting charges!), more wolf riders, or another chariot. I realise Ruglud's boys give counterattack, but I think a chariot is as good at that for a lot less points.

Karhedron
29-10-2006, 19:56
Against Brets it seems almost criminal not to take Spear chukkas. The mess those bolts can make of lance formation cavalry is immense, Even with mediocre goblin BS, even one hit will probably make their points back. Similarly Doom Divers and Rock lobbas are helpful.

druchii
30-10-2006, 04:24
Against Brets it seems almost criminal not to take Spear chukkas. The mess those bolts can make of lance formation cavalry is immense, Even with mediocre goblin BS, even one hit will probably make their points back. Similarly Doom Divers and Rock lobbas are helpful.

Karhedron is spot on.

Warmachines give me fits.
If you can somehow deny me my march moves and throw my charges off into corners of the board, the bolt throwers will cause all sorts of trouble.

Rock lobbas and stone throwers are a bit more problematic, because with such a huge charge range, and rather easy movement, one can usually throw off the guess range on throwers.

While your magic attempts to clip the wings on the Pegasus Knights(who will be the primary enemy of your warmachines) the rest of your forces should concentrate on pulling the brets into stupid charges (cue wolf riders) while the big stuff (magic and bolt throwers) make meat out of the shiny boys.

d

Von Wibble
30-10-2006, 17:14
I disagree about the range benig thrown off. ou have to declare how far you move in a turn, and it is towards the O+G force usually. That makes the range shorter so easier to estimate. Combined with the first shot being a range guesser and the ability to correct scatter by a little, the doom diver then does very well.

I was very out of practice last time I used my empire army, but all of my guesses hit the target except 1 (my first mortar shell hit some models but was short of a perfect hit). It is not hard to guess accurately, and no harder against quick enemies.

Of course I would take spear chukkas and a doom diver! That way you have more targets for the brets to hate....

Gekiganger
30-10-2006, 17:24
Karhedron is spot on.

Warmachines give me fits.
If you can somehow deny me my march moves and throw my charges off into corners of the board, the bolt throwers will cause all sorts of trouble.

d

Anyone think squig skirmishers? Those or wolfriders riding up a flank, just close enough to get into the brettonians way (Or even squigs straight down the center) and stalling them for as long as possible while bolt throwers fire at anything possible, ahh fun...

Bingo the Fun Monkey
31-10-2006, 16:14
Well I used this list yesterday. The only unit that didn't do anything was Ruglud's. I usually take warmachines, however, I wanted to try a battle with purely troops. Result? A massacre. The wolfboyz and chariots were able to disrupt his battle line and his two power units (8 griail knights and 14 KotR+chars) fell right into the trap, combo-charging a night goblin unit (that had released its fanatics earlier at some over-running pegasus knights) and overrunning into my big 'uns. In my turn I countercharged (on the flanks) with both units of orc boyz with two hand weapons resulting in total ownage. I couldn't believe he fell for the trap, but on the other hand he had no other choice. Basically mass units can control the flow of battle. The big 'uns did take quite a beating, however. Ditching ruglud's (and the giant wasn't really useful, although he wasn't a nuisance either) and the giant I'll have 419 points to play with which I'll happily fill in with war machines. Thanks for the advice, though.

druchii
31-10-2006, 16:45
[QUOTE=Von Wibble;1042859]I disagree about the range benig thrown off. ou have to declare how far you move in a turn, and it is towards the O+G force usually. That makes the range shorter so easier to estimate. Combined with the first shot being a range guesser and the ability to correct scatter by a little, the doom diver then does very well.
QUOTE]

Please note, you do NOT have to tell someone how far a unit has moved. I cannot find a passage in the new rule book(or the old!) even hinting at such a statement.

Towards, away, it adds up. An especially canny opponent will throw the majority of his units diagonally from guess-range warmachines. I'd assumed that the majority of guessers are like myself,and that diagonals give the hardest ranges to guess.

Although the doom diver IS decent in the fact that he can mess with the scatter dice, I still think bolt throwers would be, in general, an better deal (against Brets, especially).


Bingo: I'm glad you did well.
Alot of people don't understand the subtle power of a mass of units. Good for you.

Now don't tell a single other soul about it.

d

Von Wibble
31-10-2006, 17:52
No, but you do have to measure how far. And the only way to know the opponent hasn't unintentionally cheated is to see this happen. He/she can't stop you watching them move the units.

As far as diagonals go, use Pythagoras' Theorem - (or indeed the cosine rule!);)

I stand uncorrected - guessing is not difficult.

druchii
01-11-2006, 07:28
No, but you do have to measure how far. And the only way to know the opponent hasn't unintentionally cheated is to see this happen. He/she can't stop you watching them move the units.

As far as diagonals go, use Pythagoras' Theorem - (or indeed the cosine rule!);)

I stand uncorrected - guessing is not difficult.

Two points:

When I move my knights, I lay the tape measure down, mark the maximum move distance with a dice, and retract the tape measure. Suddenly people aren't "watching" how far I move my units.

Because, again, that's "easy". And we're not debating the ease of guessing(not that anything in warhammer is "hard") we're debating the relative difficulty of things. Diagonals ARE more difficult to guess that straight on hits.

I stand uncorrected: Diagonals are harder to guess, and bolt throwers have less of a chance to deviate (although the doom diver is an exception, as noted above.)

d

woytek
01-11-2006, 11:32
Agree with von wibble, last ten guesses and one of them was more then an inch of. With the doom diver I got at least half of them actual hits, maybe more.

and pythagoras is very handy indeed!