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Wolflord Havoc
30-10-2006, 11:01
With the release of WHR 7 a couple of Mates and myself have cobbled together an Ork/gobbo army and an older High Elf army in order to learn warhammer. Both armies have in the region of 3000 points and have pretty much every unit in the game (except for giants and monsters etc)

What we have discovered over the course of several games is that the HE keep getting trounced. They get totally dominated in Magic, shooting (most of the time), CC and are always badly outnumbered in terms of units and models.

How do experianced High Elf generals field (what units do you use etc) and use their armies.

Necro Angelo
30-10-2006, 11:07
That all depends, what was included in both of your armies?- for all we know it could have just been a masterful ork and goblin army against an amateur High Elf army.

Tutore
30-10-2006, 11:14
It is a fact that HE are difficult to use. I had many defeats before starting winning. Then you develop some tactics, and win many battles. I never lost against orcs and goblins, but I must admit I never played against a pro O&G player.

Wolflord Havoc
30-10-2006, 11:47
Okay from memory (Matt G designed both armies)

Orks- (I played the orks so can remember quite clearly what they had)

Boss ork on Boar (acting on his own) with pigstikka
Black ork boss leading black orks rgt with banner of ???? (gave equal to rank bonus to number of dispel dice)
1 ork shamen level 2 with badam staff (+1 to cast) and paint (+2 to cast if in combat)
1 Goblin shamen level 2 with staff of sneaky stealing (take 1 dice from enemies magic pool)
1 rgt 30 Night goblins w 2 fanatics
1 rgt 32 Goblins
1 rgt 10 Wolf riders
1 rgt 10 forest goblins on Spiders
1 squig hopper unit (5)
1 squigg herd - 1 herd
1 Chariot


High Elves (will have to ask Matt)

mounted Prince with ???
8 silver helms
10 archers
20 Spearmen
20 Phoinex Guard (these guys had a banner that gave + d3 power dice)
10 Swordsmen of Hoeth
Repeater bolt thrower
Level 2 wizard on foot
level 2 wizard on horseback

eldrak
30-10-2006, 12:00
10 archers
20 Phoinex Guard (these guys had a banner that gave + d3 power dice)

These are generally considered to be amongst the weakest units in the warhammer world.

Chariots and Eagles should be included if possible, they are a bit harder to use but are much more effective when you know what you can do with them.
Also the Silver helm unit could be a bit smaller and perhaps split up to two units with the addition of a few more of them.

Baindread
30-10-2006, 12:00
20 Phoinex Guard (these guys had a banner that gave + d3 power dice)


Well, here is the biggest problem with the list. The fact that HE is weaker than everybody else is unescapable and shouldn't be discussed. This unit though is a significant factor in making the list even weaker. Phoenix guards is one of the worst units in the game and running them 20 strong is therefore not a very good idea. Try 0 Phoenix guards next time.

Tutore
30-10-2006, 12:19
HE´s list lacks cavalry.

Wolflord Havoc
30-10-2006, 12:25
Yes we discussed it yesterday and decided that teh army should be based around a core of.........

2 5 strong Silverhelm rgts
2 5 strong reaver rgts (with or without bows?)
these 4 units too work in concert 1 of each on a flank
3 15 strong spearmen rgts
2 - 4 repeater bolt throwers - dominate the Missile phase
Wizards....lots of them...and dominate the Magic phase

And an eagle to screw up movement etc

Discuss

enyoss
30-10-2006, 12:41
Yes we discussed it yesterday and decided that teh army should be based around a core of.........

2 5 strong Silverhelm rgts
2 5 strong reaver rgts (with or without bows?)
these 4 units too work in concert 1 of each on a flank
3 15 strong spearmen rgts
2 - 4 repeater bolt throwers - dominate the Missile phase
Wizards....lots of them...and dominate the Magic phase


This is exactly the path which most players take but I would call it counsel of despair :(. You have rightly identified the strengths of the army in Cavalry and magic in numbers. However, the main complaint of this approach is that although effective, it can be woefully dull to play and incredibly frustrating to play against. There are a lot of strong opinions out there on this one so beware :).

15 Spearmen is a bad number to take. You pay through the nose for the fight in three ranks rule so should try and utilize it as much as possible. With these small units, one casualty and you're already down to +1 rank bonus and are losing attacks... disaster! Spearmen work well in larger blocks (I favour 6x5 but most would say 6x4) so try to keep this in mind.

Also, you said you played with about 3000 points? The lists you've given seem well under this total... are they more units which were used or were the points smaller. Just helps to figure out what was going wrong, that's all :).

Cheers,

enyoss

Wolflord Havoc
30-10-2006, 12:49
Sorry we have upto 3000 points of each army

We played 2000

T10
30-10-2006, 12:58
How do experianced High Elf generals field (what units do you use etc) and use their armies.

Experienced High Elf generals started out as inexperienced Warhammer players themselves, so don't give up. :)

My best advice, however, is for you to drastically cut down on the points values of your armies. You should try playing a number of 1000 point games.

The greatest advantage is that such games are quicker, allowing you to play more games and get more mileage in a shorter period of time. Since the time invested is less you are encouraged to expermient. Since the armies are smaller the situations wil be less complex and you can try stuff you wouldn't want to risk in a bigger game.

-T10

mattjgilbert
30-10-2006, 13:27
Well not inexperienced...just not played since early 4th Ed :)

I learned soon enough the PG were a massive points sink.
It was 25 spearmen. The Prince was mounted with vambraces and some blade or other (can't remember what).

The orcs totally dominated in terms of numbers and magic. The HE never stood a chance :(

GrogsnotPowwabomba
30-10-2006, 14:18
If you want to be successful with Elven infantry, you must learn to bait units to charge you, flee, and then counter charge. Infantry should work in conjunction with fast cavalry and chariots.

If you want to use a heavy cavalry themed force, just point and shoot. It really is not hard to use at all...

mattjgilbert
30-10-2006, 20:33
The problem I found was the elves simply had nowhere to move and did not have enough units to back each other up/support. With so many orc units in large blocks, the Elves were struggling to win combats before they could even begin.

I'll try to get more units for the points on the next list. Drop the PG definitely as they really are not worth it.

Currently limited to the models I have though so we'll see what happens next time...

Lieutenant Frederic Henry
30-10-2006, 20:39
Kind of off topic, but is anyone else sick of seeing all-cavalry HE armies? If I recall the fluff correctly, or just look in my army book, HE are all about combined arms. The proliferation of Archmage+mage+mage+Commander with BSB+helms+helms+helms+dragon princes (for variety) is getting rather tired. GW needs to reconsider the uses for HE elite infantry units (which used to be worthwhile in fifth edition). Also, the citizen militia rule would greatly benefit if GW would allow archers to shoot in two ranks again (apparently, HE are now the LEAST-shooty elf army. lame). This would lead people to take more archers, which would make spearmen a necessity again (static guard to defend you badass archers mowing down units with Curse of Arrow Attraction), and give the elite infantry purpose as to supporting your somewhat vulnerable spearmen. Cavalry would also return to their supporting role.
I played my HE in 5th edition as a defensive infantry force, and had a very characterful (albeit often outnumbered) army. As the elves are an ancient, dying race, I don't see how it's at all fluffy that they would all jump on their horses and go charging straight off at the enemy like a bunch of silly Knights Errant. This makes no sense with their background, or the traditional fantasy view of the High Elves. If I recall correctly, High Elves don't often run around invading people or attacking outsiders very much; rather, they defend Ulthuan from invasion and fortify their trading ports across the world.
GW needs to rethink this list badly.

Necro Angelo
30-10-2006, 20:42
Amen to that, I would have done High Elves if it were'nt for the crappy list. I guess that's the appeal Wood Elves have over them.

mattjgilbert
30-10-2006, 21:38
Well I have to agree too. I'm building lists based on the model I have from previous editions and am bemused by the way the army plays with the current army book. Hopefully they will address your points in the new book next year. I'd really like to start using more efficient/effective archer units as right now they just don't seem worth their points in the few games I have played.

Baindread
30-10-2006, 22:58
The problem I found was the elves simply had nowhere to move and did not have enough units to back each other up/support. With so many orc units in large blocks, the Elves were struggling to win combats before they could even begin.


This is the general opinion of the people wanting to improve the HE-list.



Kind of off topic, but is anyone else sick of seeing all-cavalry HE armies?


Everyone are tired of all-cav HE-lists. Hopefully GW will rectify this in the spring and bring the infantry back to HE.

Kellindel
31-10-2006, 17:38
Well I'm trying not to use all Cav lists ... :-)