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FlameKnight
31-10-2006, 13:04
There's a local tournament in a few weeks, and I'm finalising my list. I am however very open to suggestions.

A bit of background: An Averlander army, with notable Tilean influences in use of mercenary crossbowmen, pikemen, and cavalrymen (white wolves are knights with greatswords and floppy hats)


The list


Characters
Elector Count 186pts
> Great weapon, armour of meteoric iron, holy relic, Van Horstmann's speculum

Battle Wizard 140pts
> Level 2, rod of power

Battle Wizard 110pts
> 2 dispel scrolls


Core
24 Swordsmen 243pts
> Command, griffon banner
+ 10 Halberdier detachment 60pts

10 Crossbowmen 80pts

6 Inner Circle Knightly Orders 196pts
> Command, inner circle

6 Inner Circle Knights of the White Wolf 208pts
> Command, inner circle

6 Knightly Orders 203pts
> Command, war banner


Special
20 Greatswordsmen 270pts
> Command
+ 10 Halberdiers detachment 60pts

2 Great Cannons 200pts


Rare
24 Pikemen 294pts
> Command, heavy armour

2250pts total

The plan: Elector count and level 1 mage join swordsmen, level 2 mage joins greatswordsmen. Knights support an infantry advance. Pikemen at the centre.

Suggestions?

Artemis
01-11-2006, 09:31
Isn't van Horstmann dangerous on elector count? It is a safety precaution against chaos and such, but if he gets challenged by a weak character he may be in some truoble... But that's a minor point, only...

Otherwise very nice. I like the background thoughts. Would love to see those Knights! Your plan is very similar to what I like to play.

FlameKnight
01-11-2006, 10:10
Use of the mirror is optional, thank god:
"He has a choice of not using the mirror, but if he does so he must swap all characteristics for the duration of the challenge."

I've been caught out by swapping of inferior characteristics before though; in a challenge against an orc general i was caught out in the second round of combat having swapped my I5 for his I4.

Rarely is the enemy general weaker than the count though, so imho it's a reasonably safe choice.

Artemis
01-11-2006, 10:19
that's good. haven't gotten round to using speculum myself yet. I try to avoid enemy generals with my count, cause they often have nasty weapons and items as well as better stats. Maybe I'll use it now :-)

showmydog
01-11-2006, 11:55
Good Evening,

Elector count does not need all those items, especially the speculum.
He should try his best to avoid combat in the first place, he is the backbone of your armies leadership, with him gone or in the wrong place, things could go bad. It is not that he will be killed, but his unit may lose and be run down, and so too will he be lost. The cheapest and most effective way to protect him is Full plate armor. If he avoids combat he can stay safe. The Meteroic armor and holy relic are therfore an unecessary 75pts(thats 15 free company).

Give the speculum to someone more deserving such as the battle wizard, that way in a challenge the enemy ends up with your 1 S3 attack and T3, I3. This way you never lose out anywhere in the challenge and the enemy end up with very poor statistics and for most of the part will be unable to kill your wizard with his now 1 attack. This ties the challenged character up for at least 2 turns. Give the wizard a sword of might or battle and with his borrowed stats he is suddenly a killing machine.

The Elector count is not needed in the 25 swordsman with griffon standard, thats just overkill, be content with the levell one challenge maker. It may be wise to give the standard to someone else. Their 3 ranks, outnumber, standard should be enough when the enemies ranks are removed by your flanking detachment. (static CR of 6 before blows are exchanged)

The Lv 2 wizard is useless. 5 power dice will not be enough to get many spells off, and with only 4 dispel dice there will not generally be enough for him to save to use for casting. Keep the rod to augment your dispel pool and lose a wizard level unless you are prepared to buy more wizards.

Knights may be a bit small if your enemy has any shooting or magic. having said that, 3 units are quite enough to absorb the damage and still be effective.

A lot of points are tied up in the unit of greatswords, they are stubborn and are designed to hold regardless of how they lose. This unit could easily be 15, even better add the griffon standard here, this will give you rank bonus four for 50pts vs 60pts for the extra ranks.
This unit can genrally hold its own, and working with the detachement should be a formidable force. the griffon standard is not necessary but may be fun.

2 cannons, good.

I havn't used pikemen but that unit seems a good choice.

Your army lacks somewhat in shooting and has average magic defense.
It has three large block units, but lacks disposable units.
This is where the 15 free company bought with the lords magic points come into play. A unit of 15 or 20 are large enough that your opponent has to worry about them, but cheap enough to throw away. Either this or secondary detachments of 10 free company would allow more disposable units to your army. Pistoliers also fill this role with the ability to hit hard as a flanking unit, but enough of cavalry is already present.

Skirmishing huntmen or archers may suit your need (if the fit the theme).


All in all, it will be a good army given a few modifications.

Depending on your army theme style of play and your opinion of me, you can accept and reject my judgements as you see fit.


Thanks for your time,

Matt

FlameKnight
02-11-2006, 01:55
Hey, thanks for the comments. There's a few things I disagree with though, if you don't mind a discussion;


Elector count does not need all those items, especially the speculum.
He should try his best to avoid combat in the first place, he is the backbone of your armies leadership, with him gone or in the wrong place, things could go bad. It is not that he will be killed, but his unit may lose and be run down, and so too will he be lost. The cheapest and most effective way to protect him is Full plate armor. If he avoids combat he can stay safe. The Meteroic armor and holy relic are therfore an unecessary 75pts(thats 15 free company).
Eh, it's not so easy to avoid combat. The count needs to lead an infantry unit, and most of the time the enemy will be very good at seeking out my general. Having little armour and no ward save is just a quick way to lose his leadership, and he needs to be providing leadership to at least the pikemen and swordsmen. He also can't safely leave the unit any more, since characters can always be targed by shooting when on their own.


Give the speculum to someone more deserving such as the battle wizard, that way in a challenge the enemy ends up with your 1 S3 attack and T3, I3. This way you never lose out anywhere in the challenge and the enemy end up with very poor statistics and for most of the part will be unable to kill your wizard with his now 1 attack. This ties the challenged character up for at least 2 turns. Give the wizard a sword of might or battle and with his borrowed stats he is suddenly a killing machine.
Possibly a bit of a misconception here, if the wizard uses the mirror he still fights with his own 1 attack and WS3. Hardly a killing machine, and still only has two wounds and no armour. The user of the mirror gets his enemy's S, T and I, while the enemy fights with the users S,T,I & A. More of a gamble here, since the enemy being challenged is likely to have better magic weapons, despite both combatants fighting with one attack.


The Elector count is not needed in the 25 swordsman with griffon standard, thats just overkill, be content with the levell one challenge maker. It may be wise to give the standard to someone else. Their 3 ranks, outnumber, standard should be enough when the enemies ranks are removed by your flanking detachment. (static CR of 6 before blows are exchanged)
In my experience, detachments are the first thing to be targeted by the enemy, so they can't really be relied on. The Count needs to be there to ensure that the swordsmen always have his Ld9, for fear/panic/terror or whatever. If the detachments are disposed of as I mentioned, the griffon banner is needed to give the swordsmen an edge in CR.


The Lv 2 wizard is useless. 5 power dice will not be enough to get many spells off, and with only 4 dispel dice there will not generally be enough for him to save to use for casting. Keep the rod to augment your dispel pool and lose a wizard level unless you are prepared to buy more wizards.
Depends on the matchup. If you're up against a magic-lite opponent, you can store dispel dice in the rod to use as power dice, giving you a possible 8 power dice. This is a 35 point gamble I'm willing to take, because with two level one wizards, you can't do anything.


Knights may be a bit small if your enemy has any shooting or magic. having said that, 3 units are quite enough to absorb the damage and still be effective.
Quite true. My knights do suffer, but being there for support it doesn't hurt me too much.


A lot of points are tied up in the unit of greatswords, they are stubborn and are designed to hold regardless of how they lose. This unit could easily be 15, even better add the griffon standard here, this will give you rank bonus four for 50pts vs 60pts for the extra ranks.
This unit can genrally hold its own, and working with the detachement should be a formidable force. the griffon standard is not necessary but may be fun.
Yeah, if I could take two griffon standards in my army I might do this, but IMHO it's needed on the swordsmen, so the greatswords need to be this size. Not always the best choice, but a large stubborn unit can pin an enemy in place.


Your army lacks somewhat in shooting and has average magic defense.
It has three large block units, but lacks disposable units.
This is where the 15 free company bought with the lords magic points come into play. A unit of 15 or 20 are large enough that your opponent has to worry about them, but cheap enough to throw away. Either this or secondary detachments of 10 free company would allow more disposable units to your army. Pistoliers also fill this role with the ability to hit hard as a flanking unit, but enough of cavalry is already present.
I don't really see the benefit of having 15 free company... They're easily panicked, can easily cause panic, and will probably just end up losing the 75vp they're worth. Two detachments of 10 would be handy, but I usually suffer enough having to spread out units enough with one detachment each. Pistoliers are nerfed until new book anyway, now that they can't use pistols in combat.

showmydog
02-11-2006, 02:18
I quite enjoy discussion, do carry on.

Possibly a mis-misconception here.
VHS Swaps Your S T A I for their S T A I, (the A is on the next line in the army book so is overlooked by the brain)
So the Wizard is a good choice.

I see what you mean by taking the 35 point gamble, im not a gambling man though. Just be wary that there is only a 50% chance of saving 3 dice in the rod of power, quite likely that 3 turns of the six you'll be stuck with the base 5. Much safer to always go for saving two, unless you really need three.

Detachments are much harder to neutralise if there are more of them. More block units with more detachments each can solve this problem.

Its not as if your general is giving his leadership to many people though, with only one block unit. Knights and greatswords with Ld 8 are usually fine.
The general can be on his own if the battle lines are tight, this is generally accomplished by more units.

Free company are endless fun!, and when near the general are a decent combat unit, alternatively march them up a flank in the space left by the knights and move in for some flank charges and general disruption. They also excell in setting up failed charges, no-one expects a unit with full ranks to flee. You will not have to worry about panic because your general will still be alive.

Thanks,
Matt

PS. Perhaps i'll post a list and you can pick it to peices like i did to yours.

FlameKnight
02-11-2006, 03:07
Possibly a mis-misconception here.
VHS Swaps Your S T A I for their S T A I, (the A is on the next line in the army book so is overlooked by the brain)
:eek: Haha, I read that paragraph a million times and must have skipped over that every time. Fair point then, I'll consider it.


I see what you mean by taking the 35 point gamble, im not a gambling man though. Just be wary that there is only a 50% chance of saving 3 dice Last nit-pick: Saves 3 dice on 3+, 66% chance. I usually go for just one or two for saftey though.

Good show anyway, I'll have to toss up between giving VHS to the count or a wizard. One of the scenarios in the tournament awards 200VP if you kill the enemy's general with your own general though, so there's something to consider both ways. The tournament is open-list, so there won't be any hiding it :(.

edit: Oh, and pikemen are leadership 7, so swordsmen and pikemen have to stick close. Non-dogs of war characters can't join dogs of war units though, so no love putting the count in the pikemen (and no warrior priest for hatred + pikes)

showmydog
02-11-2006, 08:18
This discussion has been good, i hope it has helped you iron out your army, i know its made me reconsider a few things.


Cheers,
Matt

PS. Do you use the old metal DoW pikemen> where did you get them.

FlameKnight
02-11-2006, 10:33
Nah, I converted some pikemen out of empire spearmen. I used various plastic bits to extend the spear hafts, mainly lance lengths and bits of the poles on the cannon sets. However people commonly use brass or plastic rod, or even toothpicks. It's a bit of a challenge making them, but it makes an impressive unit.

Gregourious
07-11-2006, 08:53
Just a quick note on the extra detachments. I often use two as you said one always get targeted. With the new rules and so I don't spread out to far I will place tem one in from of the other. The first being is the target throw away unit the second my flanker.

Another strategy I used at the last tournament was to take an archer detachment in front of the GS. They are much more flexible and you can easily get them out of the way if you need to.

showmydog
07-11-2006, 10:39
I've also discovered the true benifits of archers, they work as a perfect escort for a mage, allowing him to move around to cover etc and avoiding shooting death, the only downside is when the flee.

I've recently used this tactic to protect my Level 1 wizard (with doomfire ring) in 1000 pt battles and it has worked astoundingly well.

Von Wibble
07-11-2006, 19:22
I face chaos a lot. My standard count against them is mounted with speculum, shield of the gorgon and sword of power. That means he faces 2 S4 attacks and has a 1+ save. If the lord ignores armour he will only get max 2 wounds. If he has a multi-wound sword I have a 2+ save. If he has killing blow he has 2 attacks and chances are 1 will miss. The point is that the speculum is a good choice on an elector.

Rod of power - great item. 45 pts though not 35 as you state.

The army looks OK. Personally I would lose the pikemen and get 15 Flagellants and 5 pistoliers - then you have units that allow you to close off one flank and harass the other. I would also have archers not crossbows as they can then advance as a detachment and effectively get an extra volley. They can also protect to a lesser degree against weak skirmishers.

showmydog
07-11-2006, 22:12
Crossbows are a sound choice for a more offensive army, their 30" rnage means they can be placed less thoughtfully and still shoot things, it also means they can be a safe distance from stuff. Archers are also great (mage escort) even when not taking into account their firepower. Skirmishing is great for march blocking screening and other amusing things like that. Plus its the only skirmishing unit so why not take one?