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Entreri Bloodletter
01-11-2006, 03:33
If a chariot charges into a unit of night goblins with nets, do the impact hits get resolved with -1 strength as well as the attacks from the crew/steeds?

The OG book says nets happen at the start of the close combat phase.
The rulebook says impact hits happen at the beginning of the combat.

Which happens first?

Slann mage Tokes
01-11-2006, 04:36
To me, the start and the beginning are the same....

So I would say yes both get -1 strength,
But I am no rules lawyer....

woytek
01-11-2006, 11:28
Damn all these weird questions popping up... I would find it weird because impact hits are resolved before any combat. So I say no.

Festus
01-11-2006, 12:59
Hi

Damn all these weird questions popping up... I would find it weird because impact hits are resolved before any combat. So I say no.
So do models equipped with HW/Shield get their bonus save against chariot impact hits? :angel:

woytek
01-11-2006, 13:32
Hi

So do models equipped with HW/Shield get their bonus save against chariot impact hits? :angel:

Don't ask me, ask your rulebook! :rolleyes:

Baindread
01-11-2006, 18:59
Hi

So do models equipped with HW/Shield get their bonus save against chariot impact hits? :angel:

IIRC the official 6th ed. FAQ regarding this matter was that they did get a save versus that.

DeathlessDraich
01-11-2006, 19:23
There is only the smallest distinction in the rules, probably just enough to allow impact hits before 'netting' and therefore without -1 for impact hits:

BRB pg 63 Impact hits: ..."are inflicted at the very beginning of combat"

and more importantly "... and before any model gets to attack"*

O&G pg 24 Netters: "At the start of each combat phase ..."

*Using the net is part of the Netters 'attack'? - maybe.

mattjgilbert
01-11-2006, 19:27
Well it sounds reasonable enough, the nets would clog up wheels and get tied up in beasts feet etc. I can't think of anything that would stop them ruleswise. Same for swords/shields - you'd get your save.

But that's just me and my n00b talk ;)

Edit - it's not an attack per se, just an ability of the unit in question when equiped with nets.

Big Boss Gerblash
01-11-2006, 19:40
how about the go simultaneous however fantasy does not do this it goes down to ini? Scince both are at the beggining of the close combat phase B4 attacks they are at the same time compare chariot ini (oh no another can of worms eeeeep) to the netters. How ever chariot is charging .......the more I type the more I want to give up....... I'll just allow my opponents to use the crews ini if it is higher than my NG then impact first if not my nets go first.......

Von Wibble
01-11-2006, 19:43
I would say the nets do give impact hits -1S

Why is there confusion over shields bonus save? I see no reason for not getting the +1 to save at all (unless the charge isn't to the front of course)

Festus
01-11-2006, 20:45
Hi

Why is there confusion over shields bonus save? I see no reason for not getting the +1 to save at all (unless the charge isn't to the front of course)

I would find it weird because impact hits are resolved before any combat.
I am just wondering... :p

Saxon
01-11-2006, 21:03
I think the point with the +1 save for hw + sh vs impact hits is that if this is applicable then the impact hit counts as a close combat attack (as opposed to a shooting/missile/other attack)

if that's the case then, then netters ability should affect impact hits also, as the netter ability is in the close combat phase, as are impact hits - the distinction of where it happens in this case isn't relevant

things that happen at a specific point are mentioned (for example impact hits are specified to occur before challenges), the netter ability is passive, in that it's always in effect

woytek
01-11-2006, 21:04
Festus I don't understand your posts but:

There is only the smallest distinction in the rules, probably just enough to allow impact hits before 'netting' and therefore without -1 for impact hits:

BRB pg 63 Impact hits: ..."are inflicted at the very beginning of combat"

and more importantly "... and before any model gets to attack"*

O&G pg 24 Netters: "At the start of each combat phase ..."

*Using the net is part of the Netters 'attack'? - maybe.

Entreri Bloodletter
01-11-2006, 21:34
Also, since the nets happen at the beginning of the phase and not the specific combat, I think that gives another reason for the nets being first.

zak
01-11-2006, 22:52
I would say that Impact hits are worked out before CC and that the -1 would not apply. It would then apply to the later attacks of the beasts and crew, once the chariot had finished mincing the unit and had lost it's momentum. I don't see a net slowing a full speed boar of cold one.

WLBjork
01-11-2006, 23:06
Well, if the rules for Impact Hits were quoted accurately it would be nice.


These hits are inflicted at the very beginning of the close combat phase, even before challengers are declared and before any model gets to attack.

I believe that the nets will go second, however, due to the fact that AFAIK the only unit that goes before Impact Hits has this ability explicitly stated in their rules.

misfire67
02-11-2006, 04:53
Impact hits happen at the beginning of the close combat phase. Like the few poters ahead of me I agree that the impact hits are NOT affected by the netters.

misfire67

Baindread
02-11-2006, 09:03
Impact hits happen at the beginning of the close combat phase. Like the few poters ahead of me I agree that the impact hits are NOT affected by the netters.

misfire67

But the nets are also at the beginning of the phase. This is getting silly =/

WLBjork
02-11-2006, 09:56
Well, does very begining come first or beginning?

Ultimately, as I stated, the only attack that I know of that goes before Impact Hits explicitly states so in it's rules.

DeathlessDraich
02-11-2006, 10:23
Chronicles 2004: " Q: Can you make the +1 bonus for HW and shield against impact hits? A: Yes, it is still in the Combat phase just before anything else happens"

Useless and overused phrase - "anything else". The only changes in chariot rules, from 6th, is the order with challenges and the impact hits when countercharged. So the above Q&A still applies.

Festus knows this and is toying with you, Saxon, Von Wibble and Woytek.:p

Let's stick to the debatable area of Netters and Impact hits

Atrahasis
02-11-2006, 10:48
So the above Q&A still applies.

No, only Q&A found in the "Shrine of Knowledge" now apply.

DeathlessDraich
02-11-2006, 10:55
None for general rules at the moment

Atrahasis
02-11-2006, 11:02
There you go then, there are no current Q&A or errata for the main rules at the moment.

woytek
02-11-2006, 12:02
Chronicles 2004: " Q: Can you make the +1 bonus for HW and shield against impact hits? A: Yes, it is still in the Combat phase just before anything else happens"

Useless and overused phrase - "anything else". The only changes in chariot rules, from 6th, is the order with challenges and the impact hits when countercharged. So the above Q&A still applies.

Festus knows this and is toying with you, Saxon, Von Wibble and Woytek.:p

Let's stick to the debatable area of Netters and Impact hits

This still doesn't really say what happens first since nets and impact hits are still both the first thing in the combat fase...and both before any combat is resolved. Then if impact hits are counted for normal combat, nets would work on those hits too.

Festus' post was just dumb, sorry...

metro_gnome
02-11-2006, 12:20
no its not... let me spell it out for you...
if equiptment (shields) works against impact hits...
then equiptment (nets) works against impact hits...

it is a piece of pie...
easy as cake...

woytek
02-11-2006, 12:26
no its not... let me spell it out for you...
if equiptment (shields) works against impact hits...
then equiptment (nets) works against impact hits...

it is a piece of pie...
easy as cake...

hmmmm no?

Since chariot impact hits are said to be counted towards combat phase, hw+shield bonus applies because it only works in combat. Nets don't work like that, they work only once instead of during the whole phase (ofcourse nets effect dures the combat). Since we must determine wheter or not impact hits are resolved before or after nets are thrown (both are stated to take place at the beginning) your argument is useless.

eldrak
02-11-2006, 17:37
If the quotes are correct I would say the chariot doesn't get netted, but who's to say what they mean with "very beginning" and "start" of the combat phase.

Bah, in my opinion it would be better to disallow HW+shield bonus against impact hits too.
And while at it a few other problems with the weapon rules could be fixed :p

Baindread
02-11-2006, 18:02
Since chariot impact hits are said to be counted towards combat phase, hw+shield bonus applies because it only works in combat

Impact hits are at the beginning of the combat although HW+Shield still counts because they are at the beginning of the phase too. Nets are also counted at the beginning of the phase.

Entreri Bloodletter
03-11-2006, 04:57
So after all this discussion, what have we really decided so far? It seems like there are still people on both sides of the argument, but I think the people saying nets do work have a better arguement so far.

My vote says nets do work against impact hits but I guess its still open to debate.

Bortus
03-11-2006, 16:54
Whilst I am not sure of what would be the end all be all solution here let me state these rules taken from the O&G army book. Please bear with me on this:

1.Netters can attempt to entangle enemy models before the first round of combat.
2.Immediately before normal fighting begins, each Netter Goblin can attempt to throw his net over an enemy model in base contac.
3.Entangled models lose 1 attack from thier profile for the rest of that turn.
4.However, if the model has special attacks or attacks which are not based on the model's profile these are not affected.
5.If the model is mounted on a creature that has its own attacks then the player who has been netted can elect to surrender either a mount or rider attack, but only loses one attack from the model in total.

So, are we to deduce the following:
1.Goblins will go first.
2.If the Chariot is treated as rider and mount then it is the riders whos attack you may forfeit and not the chariots impact hits, players choice.
3.Chariot attacks are special rules and thus do these qualify as special attacks meaning the cummulative -1 attack for entanglement does not apply?

As an O&G player this is how I could see the attack happening. First, the Night Goblin Netters would go first but due to the impetus of the charge the Netters could not stop the initial impact of the chariot but could stop the attack of the riders spear attacks (or whatever weapon they had). Subsequent rounds with net attacks could then stop the boars from attacking as well as attacks from the riders. If you try and imagine this scenario in a more realistic sense then you could imagine nets being thrown while a rank and file unit gets hit in the front by the force of the chariots speed while it's occupants struggle to free themselves from nets that are being thrown. I'll tell you what. Get together some of your friends and give them some nets. Now hire an Orc Chariot to charge you while you throw your nets at them. What do you think might happen?

I know some might not agree with me and I ain't saying I'm right but that's why we have this forum...so that we may discuss these things and learn different angles from different people and maybe discover something we haven't thought of. It's like I always say..."you never know it all".
Peace N' Chicken Grease!

woytek
03-11-2006, 17:12
Whilst I am not sure of what would be the end all be all solution here let me state these rules taken from the O&G army book. Please bear with me on this:

1.Netters can attempt to entangle enemy models before the first round of combat.
2.Immediately before normal fighting begins, each Netter Goblin can attempt to throw his net over an enemy model in base contac.
3.Entangled models lose 1 attack from thier profile for the rest of that turn.
4.However, if the model has special attacks or attacks which are not based on the model's profile these are not affected.
5.If the model is mounted on a creature that has its own attacks then the player who has been netted can elect to surrender either a mount or rider attack, but only loses one attack from the model in total.

So, are we to deduce the following:
1.Goblins will go first.
2.If the Chariot is treated as rider and mount then it is the riders whos attack you may forfeit and not the chariots impact hits, players choice.
3.Chariot attacks are special rules and thus do these qualify as special attacks meaning the cummulative -1 attack for entanglement does not apply?

As an O&G player this is how I could see the attack happening. First, the Night Goblin Netters would go first but due to the impetus of the charge the Netters could not stop the initial impact of the chariot but could stop the attack of the riders spear attacks (or whatever weapon they had). Subsequent rounds with net attacks could then stop the boars from attacking as well as attacks from the riders. If you try and imagine this scenario in a more realistic sense then you could imagine nets being thrown while a rank and file unit gets hit in the front by the force of the chariots speed while it's occupants struggle to free themselves from nets that are being thrown. I'll tell you what. Get together some of your friends and give them some nets. Now hire an Orc Chariot to charge you while you throw your nets at them. What do you think might happen?

I know some might not agree with me and I ain't saying I'm right but that's why we have this forum...so that we may discuss these things and learn different angles from different people and maybe discover something we haven't thought of. It's like I always say..."you never know it all".
Peace N' Chicken Grease!

ha ha ha! You sir, don't have the new rulebook!:D

Festus
03-11-2006, 17:45
Hi

Festus' post was just dumb, sorry...Good to know what you think of me :rolleyes:

This still doesn't really say what happens first since nets and impact hits are still both the first thing in the combat fase...and both before any combat is resolved. Then if impact hits are counted for normal combat, nets would work on those hits too.
If you still have not noticed: There is no first this - than that. Both will apply, as both are part of the same subphase at exactly the same time, and this is a part of the close combat phase.

If there were any sequence at all, it would be: the nets first, the hits second, as in the quotes already given: Netters are worked out *At the start of each combat phase*, and the chariot makes its impact *at the very beginning of combat ... and before any model gets to attack*

ardude
03-11-2006, 17:59
those are the old net rules right?
now you lose strength ;)

but why don't you simply ask gamesworkshop?

woytek
03-11-2006, 18:10
Hi
Good to know what you think of me :rolleyes:
correction: what I think of your post

If you still have not noticed: There is no first this - than that. Both will apply, as both are part of the same subphase at exactly the same time, and this is a part of the close combat phase.
I disagree, you have to roll for the nets, meaning it doesn't just work. Since impact hits are still treated as special I don't think they're actually counted towards the 'normal attacks'.

If there were any sequence at all, it would be: the nets first, the hits second, as in the quotes already given: Netters are worked out *At the start of each combat phase*, and the chariot makes its impact *at the very beginning of combat ... and before any model gets to attack*

I disagree again, I think the chariots hits are first, since the chariot says about the same thing.

Festus
03-11-2006, 18:17
Hi

I disagree, you have to roll for the nets, meaning it doesn't just work. Since impact hits are still treated as special I don't think they're actually counted towards the 'normal attacks'.
What is your point? You have to roll for impact hits too. This does not say anything, but it seems to be a nice smoke bomb, though... :eyebrows:

I disagree again, I think the chariots hits are first, since the chariot says about the same thing.
But it does not say the same thing: Read it again.

The nets are at the beginning of the phase, very specific in the timing within the frame of the rules system.

The chariot is before any other attacks, which come way after the beginning of the combat phase. It works at roughly the same time within the turn sequence as the choice of weapon options for the ensuing combat: Much later than the *start* of the phase...

If you still disagree, you could reconsider the meaning of *dumb*...

I am out.
Festus

Bortus
03-11-2006, 19:30
Hey Woytek there's no reason to say that someones post is dumb. Why is it so hard for you to just stick to the discussion instead of trying to get on people? What exactly does "Festus' post was just dumb, sorry..." accomplish anyway?

woytek
03-11-2006, 19:38
Hey Woytek there's no reason to say that someones post is dumb. Why is it so hard for you to just stick to the discussion instead of trying to get on people? What exactly does "Festus' post was just dumb, sorry..." accomplish anyway?

his post was (and still is) dumb for not containing anthing useful.

His theory in his last posts is better and those posts are not dumb. Although I find it weird netters can somehow throw their nets on the chariot before it hits them with an incredible speed... Ruleswise it would be ok to interpret it like that, but I don't think it's meant that way and won't play it that way.

Atrahasis
03-11-2006, 20:07
his post was (and still is) dumb for not containing anthing useful.

His theory in his last posts is better and those posts are not dumb. Although I find it weird netters can somehow throw their nets on the chariot before it hits them with an incredible speed... Ruleswise it would be ok to interpret it like that, but I don't think it's meant that way and won't play it that way.

I think its ridiculous that Gutter Runners would be able to throw throwing stars at a chariot before it hits them at incredible speed.

woytek
03-11-2006, 20:34
I think its ridiculous that Gutter Runners would be able to throw throwing stars at a chariot before it hits them at incredible speed.

why? they're skilled ninja's I guess?

mattjgilbert
03-11-2006, 21:28
Now you are bringing fluff back into it again. That doesn't help trying to deduce the sequence (if there is one) of events. It's nice to justify a rule but it should not dictate your reasoning.

woytek
03-11-2006, 21:32
Just say so before you start a game, problem solved!

Baindread
03-11-2006, 22:11
Saying that you think something about a certain rule is weird doesn't make it incorrect. If people could just stop mixing up logic with personal preference.

"It feels weird that unit X could do Y during phase Z in a world of magic and dragons". Do you see what I mean? Also, do not mix in logic with a world of pixies, Carnosaurs and Snotling pump wagons. It will never work out.

Erestor
04-11-2006, 01:45
When all else fails, dice for it.

Festus
04-11-2006, 05:39
Hi

When all else fails, dice for it.
But only then.

Here the rules are crystal clear, even if certain fellow Warseer members may *find it weird* and *won't play by* the rules.

Each to his own, I guess... :rolleyes:

Festus

lanrak
12-11-2006, 23:01
Please give GW a break.They have only been writing rule books and support material for over 2 DECADES.How are they supposed to get the hang of writing clearly defined rules in that short space of time.LOL.

What spoils GW games more than anything else.
Arguments over rules interpritation.

Still they produce cool minis and inspiring armies and world/universes to use them in.

(Its a shame they dont put the same level of effort in writing the rules to the same high standard,IMO.)

druchii
13-11-2006, 01:00
Please give GW a break.They have only been writing rule books and support material for over 2 DECADES.How are they supposed to get the hang of writing clearly defined rules in that short space of time.LOL.

What spoils GW games more than anything else.
Arguments over rules interpritation.

Still they produce cool minis and inspiring armies and world/universes to use them in.

(Its a shame they dont put the same level of effort in writing the rules to the same high standard,IMO.)

Go play Confrontation then.

ALL games have issues. Each games has its own irregularities, GW isn't exempt from this rule. I'd like to see you write, balance, produce, and ship as many games/miniatures as GW.


To the rules debate:*
Which comes first? The very beginning of the phase or the start of the phase? I personally can't tell. I think it quite rational to allow netters to effect the strength of chariot impact hits.

Logic =/= rules.

d
*Assuming all quotes are correctly(truthfully) phrased.

ZomboCom
13-11-2006, 16:50
Once again this is a case of the rules simply not being clear enough.

The "very beginning" and "the start" are to all intents and purposes the same thing.

This is simply a case that GW didn't think of, and as there is no clear and certain solution, we must roll a d6 for it each time and pray for an faq any month now...

Festus
13-11-2006, 17:22
Hi

This is simply a case that GW didn't think of, and as there is no clear and certain solution, we must roll a d6 for it each time and pray for an faq any month now...
I still fail to see the problem: Both apply, it is as easy as that. The one will get the nets, the other will get the impact hits, the HW+Shield save bonus applies, and anything else pertaining to the start of the close combat phase will equally apply and be valid...

Anything else is just ... see my sig!

Lordsaradain
13-11-2006, 17:44
I would say the nets do give impact hits -1S


Logically speaking, I can imagine how those nets could slow down a chariot by getting caught in the wheels or something, on the other hand, the warhammer rules have never been logical, so I dont think you can bring up logic to interpret rules.

This brings up another question though: If night goblins are fighting trolls, who for some reason decide to use thier 'puke-attack'(prehaps to get at some charater in the unit) will their puke suffer from -1S...? :confused:

lanrak
13-11-2006, 18:26
I should have been more precise in my earlier post.
GWs lack of using consistant terminology/phrasiology when writing rulebooks etc.Causes avoidable confusion and questions.
(Proof reading by non GW staff would also help.)

Other (war)games have issues but other manufactures have realised the importance of consistant terminology and phrasiology.

So the issues caused by 'odd events' are unavoidable.

Issues caused by poor/inconsistant terminology/ phrasiology ARE aviodable.

Over 20 years ,100s of avoidable Q&A/FAQs,GW still doesnt think the process of writing rulbooks etc,warrents any extra quality control.

Gamers, paying good money for GW publications probably disagree....

Festus
13-11-2006, 18:37
Hi

This brings up another question though: If night goblins are fighting trolls, who for some reason decide to use thier 'puke-attack'(prehaps to get at some charater in the unit) will their puke suffer from -1S...? :confused:
it shouldn't, as Puking is a special rule with a fixed Strength and save, which replaces the Trolls normal attacks (which in turn are carried out at profile strength plus/minus modifiers, however low that may become).

Festus