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View Full Version : Charging when there isn't enough room



Lord Steven
02-11-2006, 08:13
I thought things couldn't get any more silly than my frenzied Knights forming up like a choochoo train / conga line after winning a round of combat when flanked.

But last night an even worse situation happened. My knights almost had to wheel backwards so they could be flank charged.

The picture should explain the situation..

http://www.osiconsulting.co.uk/pictures/controversy.jpg

In the end I let him hang his models off the edge of the board (illegal I know). And the obvious result was 3 ranks, outnumber, banner vs my 1 kill. Fear causing enemy, lost frenzy and so broke and died on the graveyard.


I still only lost 1 horse, and that unit in total (plus a couple of units of warhounds). So it was a massacre to me.. but still.. wheeling backwards?!?

What's the deal with this stuff? He setup that piece of terrain and then put all of his army behind it. Using the board edge to protect his flanks and so I couldn't charge more than one unit in because of the width.

WLBjork
02-11-2006, 08:25
The zombies are positioned as best as possible first, then the Knights are adjusted if necessary.

In the example given, I'd say he couldn't charge. It's not possible for him to wheel in properly, and there's a big difference between adjusting the battle line so it looks neat and forcing your opponent to move his entire unit significantly.

Wings of Doom
02-11-2006, 08:26
As far as I see it, he gets a free turn to get as many models in contact as possible. This doesn't mean he can move off the table edge, and you certainly don't move unless you're fleeing (which you can't due to frenzy).
I think (although I'm not positive) That he would get into either corner-to corner with his side to your side (1 zombie on 1 knight) or he would wheel so that he is still on the table but also still in combat with you, without being straightly lined up (a bit like this... he would turn from -_ to /_ if you imagine the underscore was the knight unit). He gets as many models into contact as possible, but the free turn cannot take him off the board, into impassable terrain etc. Ofcourse, if he cannot do any of these it's just a failed charge.

Gorbad Ironclaw
02-11-2006, 09:04
It looks like a clip to me. He wheels ever so slightly to contact your knights, and thats it. You don't slide in the unit so that it's entire frontage is covered if the free alignment wheel doesn't do it.

So neither of those two solutions would actually be possible under the rules.
Thats of course assuming he is even in the flank zone. Looks very close to a front charge to me.

Lord Steven
02-11-2006, 09:54
Quite a few people said it should be a front charge. However my opponent was certain it was a flank.

Personally I would have been happy with clipping corner to corner.. my unit would still have died (he had some bats behind that I would have run into anyway).

Anyway, next time instead of hanging back with another unit of knights as I did this time because there was no room, I'll reform them so they will fit and charge them in next turn.

WLBjork
02-11-2006, 11:02
Well, the diagram you gave would appear to be a flank charge, but to determine in future use a tape measure or red stick, hold it at a 45 degree angle along the corner closest to the chargers and the majority determine whether it's a flank or front charge.

jullevi
02-11-2006, 11:12
Well, the diagram you gave would appear to be a flank charge

Actually, if the diagram is correct that would be a frontal charge considering that the units are almost corner-to-corner and zombie units seems deeper than it's wide. There are more zombies to knights' front zone than flank zone.

Whether or not you can make a charge is completely another story and depends mostly on the mood of players rather than the rules.

Gorbad Ironclaw
02-11-2006, 11:38
A better way to check if it's a flank or a front charge would be to fold a piece of paper, that gives you a sharp, and easily visual 45 degree angle.

DeathlessDraich
02-11-2006, 11:44
Assuming that it is a flank charge:

This has been asked many times before. It's the wide unit vs the long unit charges conundrum.
I'll try to find the previous threads and edit this post.

Briefly for 7th ed - there is no solution until the much awaited and promised amendments/Errata/FAQ appears.

In the 6th, the solution was in the appendix - where clipping was almost forbidden and maximisation is highly desirable. In the 6th both units are moved by the charging player to ensure maximisation.

Unfortunately this rule has been removed from 7th pending the FAQ.

The main points agreed in a previous thread was:
1) The charging unit must be able to reach the flank after a wheel - hitting the flank/front corner qualifies.
2) If the charge is a flank charge and the chargers can only hit the front, the charge fails.

Lord Steven:
1) If the zombies cannot 'fit', it is a failed charge technically - but this has to be confirmed by the FAQ.
2) The rules at the moment state that the chargers have to 'wheel' to maximise. The zombie unit doesn't seem to have wheeled or moved

intellectawe
02-11-2006, 17:12
He either fights corner to corner, or its a failed charge. I dont see why he got to hang his units off the tabel edge. What if the table edge were a building, would you move the building out of the way to let him charge? No. I dont see why this is any different. Its failed unless he could fit his models in that space to fight. At best, if both of you agree, you would just fight corner to corner, 1 model on 1 model.

Bortus
02-11-2006, 21:05
Assuming that we are to adhere to the current 6th edition rules concerning this for the time being wouldn't it be more acceptable, assuming of course that a flank charge was possible, to simply turn the zombie unit to face in the direction of the knights flank and simply slide them down and maximize contact? The diagrams I made aren't the greatest but hopefully it explains this better:

Dtrik
02-11-2006, 21:22
Id say he wasnt allowed to charge, table edge is impassable terrain IIRC. Unless he changed his formation I would say that he would not be allowed.

Implex
02-11-2006, 22:16
Hi new to boards...

I have to agree with failed charge... the rules state that the charge unit has to be able to make the charge and may wheel (1 time for unit) around obstacle. Was his argument that they were charging diagonally? My question to him would be "How are the units making contact"? Bottom line - he would have to wheel or change formation (not allowed on a charge) to make contact with your knights and he is unable to do it ===== failed charge! IMO ;-)

WLBjork
03-11-2006, 00:01
Dtrik, strictly the table edge is not impassable, however you can only move over it by fleeing/pursuing, at which point even if it's a fraction of a base the unit is removed from play permanently/temporarily as the case may be.

intellectawe
03-11-2006, 01:09
Not hard to understand really. It is a failed charge.

Crazy Harborc
03-11-2006, 01:15
My rulebooks NOT handy right now. It is in the LRB that you DO not get to do what he did. You CANNOT hang a unit part way off the board/table top the way he did. Your attitude was in the right place (good sportsmanship).

IMHO, the guy sounds like someone I wouldn't enjoy gaming with. For that matter, I doubt I would like him as a person (sounds like he just might, um cheat a little too.) Life's too short to waste gaming time dealing with people "who must win no matter what they have to do".

intellectawe
03-11-2006, 01:24
Next time he clips his units off the edge of the table against you, just hit the edge of his unit, so all his figures go sailing across the room.

Crazy Harborc
03-11-2006, 03:45
Ummmmm....it's a thought, accidents do happen. How, how, big IS the guy?? Nawww......I am joking okay.;)

However, you could point out that when just ONE minie in a unit leaves the field the unit is gone. Only a unit that pursues a fleeing unit off the field/table can come back.

Kalamadea
05-11-2006, 23:07
The real issue here: Is there clipping in 7th ed?

This came up last night in a campeign game and was a pretty big argument in our group. The rulebook seems to say pretty clearly that you maximise models as much as you can with a wheel, but you cannot wheel yourself out of a charge just to maximise (ie, there IS clipping in 7th ed.) 6th ed, as has been said, this was a big no-no and most players I know would shift units over after touching to maximise. I personally hate clipping, a good player can set up a charge so that he will always clip and win on static CR alone, with virtualy no fighting, but it appears that that is how 7th is written, and knowing GWs policy on RAW I doubt that we'll see a fix anytime soon.

From that diagram, it IS a front charge. If it was a flank charge and the diagram is simply off a bit, then he would wheel as much as possible and then you would indeed backtrack to match him, according to the rules for aligning combatants.

Atrahasis
06-11-2006, 23:06
6th ed, as has been said, this was a big no-noNo, it never was. It was a big no-no to deliberately place single models (monsters, chariots) so they touched only one model, but it was perfectly fine to clip if the normal charge move caused it.

DeathlessDraich
07-11-2006, 18:22
Hi new to boards...

I have to agree with failed charge... the rules state that the charge unit has to be able to make the charge and may wheel (1 time for unit) around obstacle. Was his argument that they were charging diagonally? My question to him would be "How are the units making contact"? Bottom line - he would have to wheel or change formation (not allowed on a charge) to make contact with your knights and he is unable to do it ===== failed charge! IMO ;-)

Hi and welcome!

eldrak
07-11-2006, 23:37
It looks like a frontal charge from the pictures, you should have then had a clipping situation if he had been able to make contact to your corner.

If it was a flank charge after the units had hit he should wheel until he hits the table edge, your unit should then have wheeled backwards. He was more right there.

Was the graveyard impassable or did you roll really bad?

Victor Romeo
08-11-2006, 20:02
Assuming it was a flank charge then you would have wheeled the Knights backward (i know, ridiculous). According to the rule book movement section the table edge counts as impassable terrain. Page 21 of the rulebook (aligning chargers) says that if the charger is unable to wheel in ''because of terrain or whatever,'' then the charged unit is aligned onto the charging unit. the table edge is certainly covered by the line impassable terrain or whatever so once you have wheeled the charger as far as the terrain will allow, you align the charged unit to its frontage.

Yellow Commissar
09-11-2006, 03:31
Atrahasis said "Originally Posted by Kalamadea
6th ed, as has been said, this was a big no-no
No, it never was. It was a big no-no to deliberately place single models (monsters, chariots) so they touched only one model, but it was perfectly fine to clip if the normal charge move caused it."

Actually, yes, it was. Pgs 266 and 267 clearly prohibit clipping "The important thing to understand when you come across these sorts of situations is that clipping is an evil and a very wrong thing to do and every effort should be made to avoid it!"

I see nothing in 7th edition to contradict this either. The Aligning the Combatants section on page 21 and Diagram 22.1 show how the engaged units should be aligned after the special "alignment" move.

eldrak
10-11-2006, 01:55
Saying it's evil is not the same as saying it's prohibited.

And please learn to use the quote function.

Artemis
10-11-2006, 14:12
Okay. Two issues.

1. Can he charge? If he can wheel without crossing the edge, and then move so that he hits you, he can charge. It's hard to tell from your diagram, butI agree that it looks very much like a failed charge.

2. If he can charge, how do you move the units? This applies to a flank charge situation. The charger has to get as many models into base contact as possible. This means he must aim the charge as centrally as possible, and then he must use the free wheel to align. If he cannot, the person being charged, shall wheel. In this case, the Khorne knights would have to wheel backwards. I do not think that it is legal to wheel backwards normally, and I don't know of any rule making exceptions to that.

If the charge had been deemed to be a front charge, the khorne knights would have had to wheel forwards to align with his front.

Does this seem correct, or am I making a complete fool of myself?:cheese: