PDA

View Full Version : one thing ive never gotten about the xenos policy



TCUTTER
03-11-2006, 19:13
howcome humanity has a vendetta against some(most aliens) but has xeno riders and eat grox which are both alien, is it just sentinent creatures they are exterminating and using the others

Minister
03-11-2006, 19:26
Simple: Sentient Xenos are a threat, or possible threat, to the Dominion of Man over the Galaxy. In anything less than geological time, the Grox is not. Leave primitives along for a few millennia and they go and develop railguns and ion cannon...

Voronwe[MQ]
03-11-2006, 19:39
Exactly. 'Intelligent' species are 'abominations', but 'normal' fauna or flora is not, since the only difference between them and Terran species are that Terran species are 'historically superior' or 'slightly preferable'. Why should they be threats? Unique biological systems, 'things' you are capable of making medicines out of etc are very valuable.

inq.serge
03-11-2006, 20:03
But, isn't it possible of to make medicines of "Inteligent" xenos?

Iceheart2112
03-11-2006, 20:50
Techincally speaking, it would be *possible*. But those flamers don't leave much behind after you're done 'purifying' it...

Minister
03-11-2006, 21:06
That, and the Ordo Xenos and Mechanicus will probably take a few samples for disection and analysis before a full-scale extermination protocol is enacted, just to see if there's anything interesting in their anatomy.

lapis_lazuli
04-11-2006, 00:31
The dogma regarding aliens is just one example of the Imperium's hypocrisy IMO. The human psyche can after all be quite a contradictory beast.

Lothlanathorian
04-11-2006, 05:42
Eldar are Xenos. Well, Xenos scum of the highest order, to be exact. Grox are food. See the difference? It really is that simple. If it talks, it is intelligent. If it is intelligent, it is a threat. If it is a threat, it must be destroyed. There are Xenos empires that the Imperium has declared all out war against. They do associate with the Tau, though only out of absolute neccessity, and the H'Rud, IIRC, are not currently the targets of any kind of Xenocidal campaign. The Imperium does have a live and kill at a later date when it is slightly more convenient policy.

Iceheart2112
04-11-2006, 07:01
But but but...the eldar are tasty!

Mr Zephy
04-11-2006, 11:38
Geanstealer cultist! All units report, prepare to lay down covering fire!

Minister
04-11-2006, 11:41
Threat classification:

Presents immediate threat at galactic level: Chaos, 'Nids

May present immediate threat at local level: Orks, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Tau

Not an immediate threat: Orks fighting amongst themselves, Eldar who are not currently aggressive, the Tau Empire as a whole, most minor races.

Not a threat in the foreseeable future: most flora and fauna

If anything starts moving up the ladder, it is treated differently. For example, Ambuls are hardly going to be a threat to the safety of the Imperium, but they can make a hell of a mess of an out of the way colony, and so may have to be exterminated. Similarly the Imperium may well be content to leave the Orks of a cluster alone as long as they are buisy amongst themselves, but will muster troops if there is a Waagh! imminent (or if is decided that nearby Imperial worlds need a bit more breathing room).

Horusaurus
04-11-2006, 16:44
Is there any definite fluff stating that a grox is an alien? If not then it could simply be a genetically modified creature created during the Dark Age of Technology.

Yog_Sothoth
04-11-2006, 17:19
Lexicanum says there are wild Grox on Catachan.

One of the sources on their Grox entry is the Codex Catachan, can someone check that book?

Mechanicus
04-11-2006, 17:46
Well, they are mentioned as being in the wild on page 16, but not as being native to Catachan.

lapis_lazuli
04-11-2006, 20:26
I read in a WD Creature Feature a while back that the Grox is native to the Solomon system, and that it was domesticated in the early millennia of the Imperium (this may be Rogue Trader-era fluff, I'm not sure). Can't seem to find Grox on the GW site's Creature Features though.

Gondorian
04-11-2006, 20:49
Threat classification:

Presents immediate threat at galactic level: Chaos, 'Nids

May present immediate threat at local level: Orks, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Tau

Not an immediate threat: Orks fighting amongst themselves, Eldar who are not currently aggressive, the Tau Empire as a whole, most minor races.

Not a threat in the foreseeable future: most flora and fauna

If anything starts moving up the ladder, it is treated differently. For example, Ambuls are hardly going to be a threat to the safety of the Imperium, but they can make a hell of a mess of an out of the way colony, and so may have to be exterminated. Similarly the Imperium may well be content to leave the Orks of a cluster alone as long as they are buisy amongst themselves, but will muster troops if there is a Waagh! imminent (or if is decided that nearby Imperial worlds need a bit more breathing room).

You missed out necrons.

Wasn't there a mention in the nids codex about inquisitor Kryptomen diverting part of the tyranid force to fight the orks. Thereby doing damage to both xenos. So there are ways of utilising the alien to the imperiums advantage.

Iceheart2112
04-11-2006, 23:32
Technically speaking, yes that is what happened. However, one of those races is going to come out of that fight really, really, really well prepared (nids eating all the orks...get all that special dna...).

Gondorian
05-11-2006, 00:32
But I argue that orks are one of the few races that have the numbers and combat durability to sucessfully defeat a nid hive fleet. The way I see it, a nid hive fleet vs an ork waaaagghh!!! could end with either side victorious.

However, the best way of battling nids from the imperium point of view is probably to do so in space with the imperial navy. Reason being is that in space the nids can reabsorb less of themselves or enemies so lose more resources than they gain.

Sorry for side tracking the thread. Aliens bad. Death to all xenos. Cept Ogryns.

Minister
05-11-2006, 01:03
Ogryns which are not Xenos, hence no problem.

Belisarius
05-11-2006, 01:45
nah you don't want to take nids on in outer space if you are imperium. I play Gothic and 40k and i'd rather face them on the ground then in space.

Chem-Dog
05-11-2006, 01:47
But, isn't it possible of to make medicines of "Inteligent" xenos?

The Xenos are impure, by decree of the Emperor, as a rule, nobody likes to countermand an order given by the actual living physical Emperor, this is why the Imperial Guard don't get Land Raiders.


Is there any definite fluff stating that a grox is an alien? If not then it could simply be a genetically modified creature created during the Dark Age of Technology.

It doesn't come from earth, ergo Alien ;)


Wasn't there a mention in the nids codex about inquisitor Kryptomen diverting part of the tyranid force to fight the orks. Thereby doing damage to both xenos. So there are ways of utilising the alien to the imperiums advantage.

Kryptman, yes. But this example doesn't actually require you to "Deal" with said aliens (Ignoring the capturing of Genestealers and gift wrapping them for the Orks). Besides, Inquisitor Lord Kryptman held the authority of the Emperor, it's hardly Imperial Doctrine ;)


Ogryns which are not Xenos, hence no problem.

No, we just get into the thorny and less clear cut issue of the Mutant.

Minister
05-11-2006, 10:30
No, we just get into the thorny and less clear cut issue of the Mutant.Abhuman. :D

Pilgrim
05-11-2006, 16:00
Abhuman. :D

Which are still technically mutants, just stable mutant strains. They receive the abhuman classification from the Imperium to denote this fact, whereas the tag of mutant is generally reserved for the more variable deviations from pure humanity.

These stable strains are far more accepted and tolerated than are the more random genetic deviants. Abhumans may not be actually liked, but people generally accept them and their presence within Imperial society. Subject to distaste and prejudice they may be (to varying degrees); mutants, on the other hand, are objects of revulsion and severe dislike (even hatred in many cases).

I do agree, though, that the issue is somewhat blurry, and there are a wide variety of attitudes and responses to both mutants and abhumans. In the same way there are differing viewpoints on aliens (although generally on a narrower band).

Adrian

Minister
05-11-2006, 16:14
This is a different issue entirely, so any in depth discussion deserves its own thread, but...

Firstly, ignore any understanding you may have on modern understanding of genetics. Even if they have this understanding in the Imperium, the strict usage of the various terms does not translate to foreign or domestic policy or dogma.

Mutation is single-generation variation in a human's (or other creature's) genetic code, producing significant alteration from the established and pure form. These traits are out with natural variance in form, and may be attributed to physical, mental or spiritual corruption on the part of the parents. In some cases, this corruption does not manifest itself until later in life (typically puberty). In extreme cases, exposure to taint may be of such magnitude as to cause mutation to occur spontaneously or gradually in an originally normal individual.

Damage to the genetic structure is passed down to a mutant’s child, but the aberrant nature of such creatures makes the results of such breeding unpredictable. In all cases, however, the tainted child shows a vastly increased likelihood of further mutation.

By contrast, abhumans are the result of natural changes in the human form to adapt to environmental conditions, which go beyond the norm of human form. Such variation is yet another sign of Humanity’s right to rule the galaxy as a whole, as Man cannot be expected to rule a world upon which life cannot be maintained. Ogryns and other abhumans with variance in structure are the most prominent of these, but there are other forms. Indeed, the line between abhuman and standard human is very blurred. Consider those worlds where ambient conditions have brought about a variance in skin colour, regardless of the tone held by the majority of original settlers, or those worlds where inhabitants have built up immunities to native toxins or poisons which might prove lethal to offworlders.

If you wish further discussion of this, I suggest a new thread.

Hobgoblyn
06-11-2006, 22:32
What I don't quite get about the Imperial Xenos policy is...
that it is more damaging than helpful.

2/3rds of the Eldar are perfectly willing to be at peace.
Tau are willing to respect the human Empire and would likely be willing to forge an alliance.
Half the Orc Klans (Bad Moon, Blood Axe, Death Skull) are perfectly willing to be friendly... at least as long as you have someone for them to fight.
Kroot and Hrud are willing to work for the Imperium.

If it weren't for the Imperial Xenos policy they likely could have turned the forces of the galaxy against those who just aren't willing to play nice, Chaos, Tyrnids, Necrons and the not-so-accepting Ork Klans... and achieved peace.

But, the Imperium engages in lots of self-destructive practices. This isn't even the biggest one.

Chem-Dog
06-11-2006, 22:47
Abhuman. :D

This depends on wether you are talking to the Administratum or the Ecclesiarchy ;)


What I don't quite get about the Imperial Xenos policy is...
that it is more damaging than helpful.

2/3rds of the Eldar are perfectly willing to be at peace.
Tau are willing to respect the human Empire and would likely be willing to forge an alliance.
Half the Orc Klans (Bad Moon, Blood Axe, Death Skull) are perfectly willing to be friendly... at least as long as you have someone for them to fight.
Kroot and Hrud are willing to work for the Imperium.

If it weren't for the Imperial Xenos policy they likely could have turned the forces of the galaxy against those who just aren't willing to play nice, Chaos, Tyrnids, Necrons and the not-so-accepting Ork Klans... and achieved peace.

But, the Imperium engages in lots of self-destructive practices. This isn't even the biggest one.

2/3rds of the Eldar would be perfectly willing to be at peace RIGHT op to the point that is serves their interests not to be.
Tau want to subjugate and consume the Imperium, anything that's not for the greater good must be destroyed, not that different from a Kill the Xenos attitude and certainly not compatible with the Imperium.
Ork Clans are rough cultural groups, you cannot say that because one lot of Orks has behaved one way all other groups from the same Klan are going to act the same even if you treaty with an Ork Klan they can change their mind, get a new Boss who thinks things should be different or another group from the same Klan comes along and unaware or uncaring of the arangement come ad kill you anyway.
I can't really speak of the Hrud as I know little about them, but their behaviour to date shows them to be fairly verminous and regardless of politics seem to get in the way and cause all sorts of mayhem, reason enought o kill them.
The Kroot are just as happy to fight against the Imperium, just depends who's waving the bigger box of steaks around as payment.

The Imperium LARGELY decides what to do in regards to Aliens according to how much of a threat they are deemed to be and generally this is from experience.

ThorOdensson
06-11-2006, 22:55
The Tau do not respect the human empire.

The leave it alone until the gather the strength to steal worlds from it.

Hobgoblyn
07-11-2006, 00:16
This depends on wether you are talking to the Administratum or the Ecclesiarchy ;)



2/3rds of the Eldar would be perfectly willing to be at peace RIGHT op to the point that is serves their interests not to be.
Tau want to subjugate and consume the Imperium, anything that's not for the greater good must be destroyed, not that different from a Kill the Xenos attitude and certainly not compatible with the Imperium.
Ork Clans are rough cultural groups, you cannot say that because one lot of Orks has behaved one way all other groups from the same Klan are going to act the same even if you treaty with an Ork Klan they can change their mind, get a new Boss who thinks things should be different or another group from the same Klan comes along and unaware or uncaring of the arangement come ad kill you anyway.
I can't really speak of the Hrud as I know little about them, but their behaviour to date shows them to be fairly verminous and regardless of politics seem to get in the way and cause all sorts of mayhem, reason enought o kill them.
The Kroot are just as happy to fight against the Imperium, just depends who's waving the bigger box of steaks around as payment.

The Imperium LARGELY decides what to do in regards to Aliens according to how much of a threat they are deemed to be and generally this is from experience.

What is really different between these and various human countries here on Earth?
Only willing to help so long as it benefits them, unstable government, puts ideology about respecting other country's sovereignty, is in the way of what a bigger country wants or is willing to side with whomever offers them the most today. I think we could all name at least one country that falls into every one of these categories and most fall into quite a few. Right there is your international landscape.

We'd still call a country whose entire foreign policy was 'kill all people not from our country' rather insane, maniacal and evil, even if they prioritized who to kill first based on current possible threat level.

Lothlanathorian
07-11-2006, 01:36
Quit picking on us damn Yanks, please :p

Hate is the purest thing in the Imperium. Hatred for anything that is not human and that can pose a threat. Anything that is classified as an 'animal' is an animal, not an alien. That is pretty simple and about as accurate as I think the Imperium really gets. Abhumans were once normal humans, as stated earlier in this thread, that have adopted and evolved to survive on the planet in which the original settlers got stuck on. Mutants are, well, genetic aberrations that suddenly occur in a single generation, though that has absolutely nothing to do with the Imperial policy towards Xenos. Look at it like racism in the world today, if you must. I am not a rascist, but, for arguments sake, let us say that I am from Country A and I hate a race of people from country X and, in country x they have camels. Just because I hate all X-ians for not being A-ians, it does not mean that I hate camels for being in X, as they are nothing more than animals. It doesn't have to make sense for it to be, just look at algebra:D

Scythe
07-11-2006, 09:37
Abhumans were once normal humans, as stated earlier in this thread, that have adopted and evolved to survive on the planet in which the original settlers got stuck on.

Evolution occurs due mutation and selective breeding. Orgyns and ratlings are the result of mutation and selective breeding of humans a long time ago. Hell, I don't think they can reproduce with a normal human, can they? That makes them far less human as a 'mutant' technically (and a separate specie).

I say burn them all...;)

Slaaneshi Slave
07-11-2006, 09:43
Squads are mutated Humans too.

Scythe
07-11-2006, 09:59
Nope, they are biomass in a Tyranid digestion pool.

Slaaneshi Slave
07-11-2006, 10:08
There are still squats out there, just the homeworlds got taken out. They even have fleets, and pop up in fluff from time to time. Under a different name, of course.

Voronwe[MQ]
07-11-2006, 11:12
Logically hundreds of thousands of Squats survived, and their varying positions and circumstancs/agendas are very interesting. For example, I believe that some dozens of ships gathered together to mine ore and gases from certain areas in the core and export it to Imperial worlds as a trade.

Lothlanathorian
07-11-2006, 14:37
The way I see it, if it ain't a World Eater, it should be killed anyways. Hell, if there ain't nothing but World Eaters around, then kill them, too.

Seriously, though, I agree that Abhumans are very significantly mutated from the stock human genetic strain, but they are of human descent and ancestry. They are naturally occurring, mutants are tainted by the warp. This still has nothing to do with Xenos, so I'll be so kind as to start a new thread for us.

inq.serge
07-11-2006, 15:03
Is abhumans a race or a specie?

If it is possible for an abhuman and a human to get a child together (biologically), that is not sterile, then abhumans are a race of human.

If it is possible for an abhuman and a human to get a child together (biologically), that is sterile, then they are closely related to human, but an other specie.

If it's impossible to for an abhuman and a human to get children (In theory),then they are a different specie and therefore xenos!

Slaaneshi Slave
07-11-2006, 15:08
Space Marines are abhumans, acording to the Battle Sister in Faith and Fire.

inq.serge
07-11-2006, 15:29
No, they are actualy adeptus

Abhuman= Something someone is born as.

Adeptus= something a human that is very good at something/ gifted in something can become.

Slaaneshi Slave
07-11-2006, 15:35
Not in 40k aparantly. What about the Adeptus Telepathica? You are born a telepath, or you are not.

lapis_lazuli
07-11-2006, 18:10
There's little logic to the Imperial position on the xenos (or mutants and abumans, for that matter) - their attitudes are based on ignorance, prejudice and religious dogma. I suspect few outside of the AdMech really care about the genetic minutiae of what differentiates a mutant from an abhuman. If a person is a rabid adherent to the Imperial Creed, he/she will persecute any xenos or mutant as a matter of blind faith, while a less zealous individual might take a more pragmatic approach and tolerate them as long as they're useful. It's a mistake to try to quantify these positions based on precise definitions.

Slaaneshi Slave
07-11-2006, 18:14
If the Imperium were all warm and cuddly they would be dead. Simple. Look what happened to the Tau. Now what if 50 of the races who the Imperium had actually wiped out developed as fast as the Tau, and 10 of them were aggressive (not just expansionist, like the Tau). Could the Imperium cope with fighting Chaos, Tyranids, Orcs and 10 Tau like races at once? So to avoid the problem they simply wipe out every species they come across.

Voronwe[MQ]
07-11-2006, 18:16
They can, and they do. But that's only logically one are able to see it, not 'fluff'-reference-wise.

inq.serge
07-11-2006, 18:18
Not in 40k aparantly. What about the Adeptus Telepathica? You are born a telepath, or you are not.

OK, I edit.

Adeptus: Something a human who is gifted/good at something can become.

I.E. A human -12Y old boy, who has a strong mind and good physique and great faith can become an Adeptus astartes

A human who is good with tech, machinery et cetera can become an Adeptus Mechanicus.

A human telepath can become an Adeptus Telepathica

The conclusion is, that Abhuman is something someone is born as, adeptus is something a human can become if It has enough abilities required, including some abilities that a human only can be born with.

Slaaneshi Slave
07-11-2006, 18:18
You know what I am saying, if they were genocidal maniacs, they would be fighting many, many more enemies.

inq.serge
07-11-2006, 18:23
They are fighting many, many more enemies.

Theres more enemies in the background then in rule, and in the game Inq., there's a Random Alien generator where you can "Randomize" your own alien, Take a look: http://www.specialist-games.com/assets/AlienGenerator.pdf

Slaaneshi Slave
07-11-2006, 18:24
Why bother arguing the point? It is quite simple that without killing off all the young races they would have more enemies. I don't mean some ****** little back water planet they can't be bothered to exterminatus, so they just send a few companies of Guard, I mean empires, such as the Tau.

Commander Ozae
07-11-2006, 19:22
It's also xenophobia. Look at human history. If some people look different then they are discriminated against and often suffer from that. Take this and magnify it several hundred times because these races aren't even human, they are filthy xenos and all they deserve is death. Also, probably when humanity expanded outside the solar system, they probably encountered races like the orks who are naturally violent and that would sort of put a damper on any other races they would meet.

lapis_lazuli
07-11-2006, 22:23
They are fighting many, many more enemies.

Theres more enemies in the background then in rule, and in the game Inq., there's a Random Alien generator where you can "Randomize" your own alien, Take a look: http://www.specialist-games.com/assets/AlienGenerator.pdf

Can you call these aliens "enemies", though? A lot of these races are mercenaries who bear little ill-will towards humanity or Imperium, and indeed see them as a valuable source of employment.

I agree with Slaaneshi Slave that the Imperium does exterminate (or at least attempt to exterminate... there are a couple of vengeful "scattered refugee" races mentioned in the background) alien races. Sometimes, it seems, even if they pose no threat (look at General Sejanus' encounter with the friendly tentacled blobs in the 3rd ed rulebook... although the fact that they were quite hi-tech might have been perceived as threatening). But the fluff refers to the Imperium ignoring small/primitive/peaceful races in equal measure.

So I'd conclude that, while the common person generally holds to the inviolable dogma of "suffer not the alien to live", actual Imperial policy as determined by the movers and shakers is somewhat more complex. As is generally found throughout history, in fact: look at the Crusades, for example.

Scythe
08-11-2006, 07:12
Why bother arguing the point? It is quite simple that without killing off all the young races they would have more enemies. I don't mean some ****** little back water planet they can't be bothered to exterminatus, so they just send a few companies of Guard, I mean empires, such as the Tau.

Are you sure? The Tau don't kill of everyone they meet directly (ok, well, if you don't join them, then they kill you off). It doesn't seem to generate them tons of enemies. If they hadn't allied up with the Kroot, Vespids, Nicassar (sp?) etc, they would have had those races as enemies as well. The Tau seem to manage quite effectively by being not outward hostile to alien races like the imperium is.

Gondorian
08-11-2006, 08:41
That's one of the ideas that was raised amoungst my fellow gamers and I.
Is the Tau empire the way the imperium of man should be?

At first you would say yes because the Tau empire has had great success, the principle of greater good means that all Tau are allied and the Tau have made many friends amoungst other xenos.

However, in their devotion to the greater good do they remove the rights of individuals? Does an imperial citizen have more freedom and choice in his/her actions over that of a member of the Tau empire?
Any member of the Tau race has practically everything decided for them, their work and place in society. Even their mates are selected by genetic match, according to 'fire warrior'. Is there such a thing as one tau or is their only the greater good? A member of the imperium can sometimes suffer this too especailly in places such as hive worlds. However, even the dregs will have some choice in some of what they do, what they drink or eat, who they spend time with, what they do with the measly pay they get from whatever work they do (if they are lucky enough to get paid).

Also take a look at commander Farsight. He has broken with the greater good showing that there is possibility for strife within the Tau race. The imperium of man is often it's own worst enemy but the Tau could be on the verge of civil war should direct action be taken against Farsight. (Please note, some of this is conspiracy theory spread by myself and a friend's anti-xenos campaign. We would really love to see Tau fighting Tau.)

Also, is the extermination of aliens specific only to the imperium? The eldar once took arrogant pride in destroying what they referred to as 'lesser' beings (and look where you are now you b*****ds). The most famous of these being the mon-keigh which were an early race wiped out by the eldar (the mon-keigh were suspected to be closely related to both the E-wok and care bear according to imperial records. Why the eldar take such perverse pride in wiping out such a harmless species is a mystery to us all). Mon-keigh is now a term that the eldar use for mankind.
Other races such as orks, nids and crons also have heavy anti-xenos views but these tend to be from the 'I want to rule the galaxy point of view'. In other words they'll kill anything xenos or no to achieve their aims.

You can tell I dislike both Tau and Eldar can't you?

Voronwe[MQ]
08-11-2006, 09:50
The Tau empire is what the Imperium could almost have been had not Horus Heresy ended the Emperor's Grand Scheme.

Scythe
08-11-2006, 10:26
I doubt it. Was the Emperor inviting the Eldar for tea for a nice chat about them joining the greater Imperium? The Xenos hate has always been there (at least in the crusade). Tau differ from that.

lapis_lazuli
08-11-2006, 16:01
Sometimes even the Tau have to take a zero-tolerance approach to hostile xenos: the Reek, Orks and Tyranids, for example. In particular, the paragraph in the codex about the Fire Warriors abasing themselves before Aun'va as he stirred them up to slaughter the Reek smacks of the same fanatical dogma as found in the Imperium.

Slaaneshi Slave
08-11-2006, 16:03
Nah, if the Emperor hadn't got stuck in his chair (fat git) the human race would likely be a phychic race by now, Chaos would no longer be a threat, and mankind would be well on their way to accending into the Warp and forgetting mortal concerns.

If not there, then on their way. That was the Emperors plan.

Lothlanathorian
08-11-2006, 17:08
I have to wonder if Slaaneshi Slave has broken free of his Master's shackles or if he is just being more subtle with his insanity nowadays:p

But, to the point, I think he is on the money. Had the Emperor not ascended to the Golden Throne, Mankind would have had their own apotheosis or at least been where the Eldar are as far as psychic advancement goes, but, then again, maybe it is better that mankind doesn't develop to such great power, as another Fall, one of Mankind, would be a horrible thing for our galaxy. So, Kill everything else is what I say.

Also, I posted this in my abhuman/mutant thread, but it can apply here as it also mentions the Xenos policy in a manner:

I also remember a short story in an Inferno where an IGman of some sort gets stranded on a high G planet alone somehow. Here, he meets a race of Human-like beings that disgust and appall him, they have fours arms, two of which are on the abdomen and act as a second pair of legs. Then one of them ends up speaking the same language as him and he learns that they are fervent adherents to the Imperial Creed and believe he was sent by the Emperor to save them. They look like they do because they were starnded on this planet a long ass time ago and the AdMechs with them made these arms and grafted them to them and alter their genetics, via STC tech, so that they oculd survive here until they were saved. There is another clan of these 'people' on the planet that worship Khorne and attack them all the time. He helps the Imperial clan fight and kill the Berzerker clan and then his rescuers show up. When he gets off world, he tells them that aliens live on the planet and that they are not a threat so that they won't be exterminated as mutants.

If anyone has a copy of this story, a little polish to this would be appreciated as I read it a looooong time ago.

Hobgoblyn
08-11-2006, 17:32
Sometimes even the Tau have to take a zero-tolerance approach to hostile xenos: the Reek, Orks and Tyranids, for example. In particular, the paragraph in the codex about the Fire Warriors abasing themselves before Aun'va as he stirred them up to slaughter the Reek smacks of the same fanatical dogma as found in the Imperium.

What are the Reek? I've never heard of them before...
I know the Orks they have tried hiring before, but that tends to end with the Orks turning on them and attacking them once there are no more other enemies to battle.

Anyhow, you don't see the Imperium hiring dinosaur and insect people to fill out the ranks of their armies, so Tau do get some brownie points.

Voronwe[MQ]
08-11-2006, 17:38
Nah, if the Emperor hadn't got stuck in his chair (fat git) the human race would likely be a phychic race by now, Chaos would no longer be a threat, and mankind would be well on their way to accending into the Warp and forgetting mortal concerns.

If not there, then on their way. That was the Emperors plan.

And then the Chaos gods would be waiting for them with a friendly smile and sharp their knives against a whetstone and say 'hello' in an entirely []too[/i] cold voice. :D

Kidding; I don't think humanity had become an entirely psychic race, and then the threat of Chaos etcetera plays upon sociological factors, and there is always a hell lot of them.


I have to wonder if Slaaneshi Slave has broken free of his Master's shackles or if he is just being more subtle with his insanity nowadays:p

He is trying to cradle us into a safe belief that everything would have been alright had not that little mistake occurred by subtle means, and then lead us down that path himself should he somehow manage to do it. And then... guess what? :D

Mr Zephy
08-11-2006, 18:31
It has been said before, but the Reek were an alien race invented by GW for the Tau to kill. they are mentioned in the Tau Empire codex.

Commander Ozae
09-11-2006, 00:10
The whole Tau are really nice idea is not totally correct, they will allow a race to exist and join the Tau Empire only if they accept the Greater Good ideology. The Imperium does the same thing, only on a much rarer and more selective scale. Examples: Laeran, jokaero, and abhumans.

Scythe
09-11-2006, 07:05
Sometimes even the Tau have to take a zero-tolerance approach to hostile xenos: the Reek, Orks and Tyranids, for example. In particular, the paragraph in the codex about the Fire Warriors abasing themselves before Aun'va as he stirred them up to slaughter the Reek smacks of the same fanatical dogma as found in the Imperium.

They tried to reason with the Orks and Nids tough. Same procedure as every time for them. The message is simple; join us or die.

Slaaneshi Slave
09-11-2006, 07:11
jokaero.

Sounds awefully close to Jakaroto to me (probably spelled wrong, the forbidden clan of Fremen on Arakis.

Slaaneshi Slave
09-11-2006, 07:12
They tried to reason with the Orks and Nids tough. Same procedure as every time for them. The message is simple; join us or die.

Join us or Die is a lot more friendly than first contact with an Exterminatus Shell.

Nazguire
09-11-2006, 07:47
They tried to reason with the Orks and Nids tough. Same procedure as every time for them. The message is simple; join us or die.

Kinda hard to reason with the Orks or Tyranids though, when one wants to fight you, kill you and eat you regardless, and the other wants to just eat you.

Scythe
09-11-2006, 07:48
That's my point. No mather who you are, the Tau always give you the option. They even tried it with Orks and Nids, but then it became clear that communication with those is impossible. The imperium simply nukes the place from orbit (so to speak).

edit: @ Nazguire. Hard, but they tried anyway. They gave up tough...:D

inq.serge
09-11-2006, 15:19
Join us or die!

Isn't that what chaos uses to say?

The reason our great Imperium of us, the greatest specie in the universe, Mankind, doesn't exterminatus every ********** tau xeno scum is that that scum works as a passive defence; If they fight 'needers and orks, then all three scum-gang would suffer casualties, and the less they are, the less we need to fight them to kill.

(to day, I'm pro-Imperium)

Commander Ozae
09-11-2006, 16:02
Join us or die is a common enough theme for many races, its just that the Tau make a big deal out of it and broadcast it a lot more than other races.

lapis_lazuli
09-11-2006, 21:54
Anyhow, you don't see the Imperium hiring dinosaur and insect people to fill out the ranks of their armies, so Tau do get some brownie points.

There are a lot of references to Imperial Commanders hiring alien mercenaries in difficult circumstances. Admittedly, it seems to happen more in distant regions like the Eastern Fringe, far from Imperial retribution... but it does happen. It wouldn't surprise me if mercs were used even in more central campaigns, their existence later hurriedly covered up.

Commander Ozae
10-11-2006, 00:12
Humans do use mercs which are xenos but on a far smaller scale. We have to remember that the Imperium is massive and the tau empire is pretty small. Them using these small races as mercs would be broadcasted whereas with the Imperium, this would not happen very often.

Scythe
10-11-2006, 06:49
Isn't that what chaos uses to say?


Nah, Chaos is more specific.

Khorne: "join us or die, either way we take your skull and paint our armour with your blood!"
Slaanesh: "join us or be **** in **** you don't want to know about, and then die"
Nurgle: "join us and look like *****, or die and become *****"
Tzeentch: "join us and become a 9 tentacled beast, or don't join us and become a 9 tentacled beast."

;)

On subject: I am with Commander Ozae here; the imperium might deploy Xenos mercenaries from time to time in desperate situations, but the Tau do it practically all the time. It is the rule for the Tau rather as the exception.

Voronwe[MQ]
10-11-2006, 07:24
Well, Chaos plays upon sociological factors to get cultists and hangers-on etc, but that was anyway dead funny; especially the Nurgle and Tzeentch part.:D

Slaaneshi Slave
10-11-2006, 07:27
There are a lot of references to Imperial Commanders hiring alien mercenaries in difficult circumstances. Admittedly, it seems to happen more in distant regions like the Eastern Fringe, far from Imperial retribution... but it does happen. It wouldn't surprise me if mercs were used even in more central campaigns, their existence later hurriedly covered up.

The Imperial Guard even use Beastmen Legions...

Slaaneshi Slave
10-11-2006, 07:28
On subject: I am with Commander Ozae here; the imperium might deploy Xenos mercenaries from time to time in desperate situations, but the Tau do it practically all the time. It is the rule for the Tau rather as the exception.


Only because the Tau have a small number of actual Tau, whereas the Imperium effectively has an unlimited number of soldiers.

Scythe
10-11-2006, 07:50
Not entirely true; Tau see values in their allies which they don't have. They value Kroot for the hand to hand combat skills, for example, Vespid for their speed and tolerance which enables them to use their unique weapons, and Nicassar for their space navigation abilities.

Having more Tau wouldn't mean the Tau wouldn't see the value of these abilities their allies bring. It is simply not the way Tau warfare works. The imperium works due wars of attrition, Tau mainly on force preservation.

Voronwe[MQ]
10-11-2006, 07:58
Wars of attrition requires high numbers mostly, force preservation skilled troopers used to work in conjunction with other war force elements and flexible command structure.

Scythe
10-11-2006, 08:26
It wouldn't change the Tau mindset tough. The imperium in general doesn't care much about its soldiers; Tau have a slightly different mindset.

Slaaneshi Slave
10-11-2006, 08:30
Remember the Unification Wars? Highly skilled soldiers making surgical strikes to defeat the enemy? Look how things changed... The Tau would walk the same path.

Scythe
10-11-2006, 08:57
Remember the Unification Wars? Highly skilled soldiers making surgical strikes to defeat the enemy? Look how things changed... The Tau would walk the same path.

That's just speculation. I think the mindset of the Tau would remain different from the Imperiums, no mather how large their empire might grow.

Slaaneshi Slave
10-11-2006, 09:59
No, its not speculation. If they had a galaxy spanning empire they could not govern it properly, so they either split down into many small provences (some of whom would rebel), or go the way of the Imperium.

Scythe
10-11-2006, 10:05
Not at all. Tau are vastly different from the imperium in that aspect. For one, they don't have interstellar communication like the imperium does, nor they will get it the same way (since they are not psykers). This would force them to other solutions, whatever those will be. Tau are already split up quite a bit, but the ethereals in each system keep the race focused on their single goal. I stay with my point that a galaxy spread Tau empire would be vastly different structure wise as the Imperium is now.

Voronwe[MQ]
10-11-2006, 10:20
Indeed, and it would neither be anywhere near as dystopian.

Gondorian
10-11-2006, 12:24
I reckon you would still get some Tau worlds turning from the greater good.
It is the one thing that Farsight has shown, not all Tau are willing to completely devote themselves to the greater good. If one Tau rebelled, many more can too.

Scythe
10-11-2006, 12:45
Depends really. If the ethereals learned from Farsight, they will be throwing more than a single ethereal around per fighting / expedition force. Remember Farsight only went rogue when he lost the ethereal who was with his force died.

GodofWarTx
10-11-2006, 18:05
Lets not forget that the Tau pretty much have a "some are more equal than other" policy when it coems to running the tau empire. You dont see any other races in positions of authority, just the various tau races running things. Its interesting how they also use a "communication device" for the Vespid that has been alluded to being faaaar more than just that : more along the lines of mind controlling a strain leader so the rest follow him.

With the imperium, they were trusting and open ..and it got them the age of strife as all the various alien buddies that they had accumulated sensed blood in the water of the human interstellar empire, and the majority of humanity was either isolated, enslaved (by xenos) or brought to extermination. After a few centuries or milennia of this situation, im pretty sure humanity had a good motive for not trusting any more xenos after that point. It was the closest humanity had ever come to extinction.

Scythe
11-11-2006, 09:36
They were trusting and open? Were did you get that from? (serious, do you have a source?)

Commander Ozae
11-11-2006, 12:54
No, humanity wasn't trusting and open, but they were certainly less xenophobic than they are now. They probably got along with civilized races like the eldar just fine.

Scythe
11-11-2006, 13:53
Well, as far as I can tell, the Eldar have always been a bunch of self centred freaks. I mean, the whole one Eldar is worth millions of humans thing isn't exactly nice. I can't see them being any better before the fall; their ego must have been even greater back then. ;)

lapis_lazuli
11-11-2006, 14:50
The scant material on pre-Imperial times talks about mankind's first encounters with aliens being largely hostile. There are references to numerous "Alien Wars", and alien invaders were actively being held at bay until the human worlds were weakened in the Age of Strife.

So, no, humanity as a whole was not open and trusting.

Minister
11-11-2006, 14:55
I also recall a bit about the first ork/human encounter on an airless moon consisting of the two sizing each other up, deciding they don't like the look fo each other and both drawing and firing their pistols at the same time...
Though obviously if Han had been there he would have shot first.

Gondorian
11-11-2006, 21:31
Depends really. If the ethereals learned from Farsight, they will be throwing more than a single ethereal around per fighting / expedition force. Remember Farsight only went rogue when he lost the ethereal who was with his force died.

True, but you can see the point that the Tau are capable of turning.
It could happen again. It's unlikely but the ethereal race is not overly big from what I've heard. There would be a limit to the number that could accompany each force.

Scythe
12-11-2006, 10:25
Sure, anything is possible. If the Tau would even get a galaxy spawning empire, I am sure it is bound to happen on some worlds sometime. However I can't see Tau world rebel in huge numbers, provided they keep their 'system' about the same.