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Bingo the Fun Monkey
03-11-2006, 20:15
I'm a greenskins player but I decided to try a proxy battle againt the dwarfs with the beasts of chaos. I took six Beastherds (bare bones+wargor), 4x5 Warhounds, 4x10 Bestigors (w/ champ), 2x6 Centigors and 3 Minotaurs with great weapons along with a beastlord a shaman (slaanesh) and 2 more wargors.

Basically, since beastherds form up into ranks of 4, I figured that it'd be better to stack static CR from flank and rear charges. They're also decent meat shields against missile troops to protect the precious bestigors. I found that comboing rear charges with two beast herds (for a +4) that had ambushed (admittedly they all passed their Ld) and flanking with bestigors and warhounds was able to stack the combat heavily in my favor and managed to break 23 Ironbreakers and a lord with shieldbearers. I did struggle against these dastardly clansmen with a thane on oathstone, however, but the centigors and minotaurs took care of them. M5 and otherwise skirmishing troops makes for an army that can pick its fights and stack a different kind of static CR against the units they fight.

So, to the seasoned beastlords out there, have you tried this out? How does it do against more mobile foes? Also, how do you treat 7th ed as a whole?

MarcoPollo
03-11-2006, 22:28
This is the type of army that I use to my highest levels of success. They gang up on units and break them. The match-up part, especially with cheap dogs in the deployment phase and the skirmish ability really makes these units super potent.

Against alot of fear causing armies this is a problem. Because of this, I also incorporate some demons (ItP) and mortal undivideds as well.

It is the way of the future, I think.

A typical army of mine has looks like:

Beast lord of Khorne (barebones), 2 wargors of khonre (barebones with great weapons), Exalted hero undived with helm of many eyes and great weapon.

I include 2 huge beast herds of 8gor/15ungor and full command. 10 bestigors of Khorne (champion only), 3 minotaurs of Khorne (greatweapons), tuskagor chariots (2), 25 marauders(la/hw/sh + full command), 4 chosen knights of khorne (bare or maybe st+warbanner), and of course 3X5 warhounds.

Being Khorne helps the ld. So does the mark of undivided on the chariots, knights, and hero. Plus if I put all three characters in one of the beast herds, it can take a charge from even the most leathal units and win. Given that the movement of beasts is 5 I can really place my characters to the best advantage. Plus once I roll a flank, I do not have to spend a turn to get in charge range again. 360 los and skirmish makes for a nasty unit on the flank.

Multifarious
04-11-2006, 01:07
IBasically, since beastherds form up into ranks of 4, I figured that it'd be better to stack static CR from flank and rear charges.

You only form into ranks of four if you fight something of such small frontage that you couldn't get 5+ in contact. EG Chariots.

Otherwise you get the rank.

kaldour
05-11-2006, 15:02
Basically, since beastherds form up into ranks of 4, I figured that it'd be better to stack static CR from flank and rear charges. They're also decent meat shields against missile troops to protect the precious bestigors.
Like Multifarious said, this is only a concern when facing units with a small frontage, such as solo characters. 5 Beastmen have a frontage of 125mm, but since you can go corner to corner, your opponent only needs to have 75mm of frontage for you to get your full 5 across for ranks. That's equal to 4 small infantry bases, 3 big infantry bases, 2 ogre bases or 3 cavalry bases... you'll get your rank bonus even if fighting something as narrow as a Bretonnian lance.

That's the good news, here's the bad news:


I found that comboing rear charges with two beast herds (for a +4) that had ambushed...

This doesn't work like you think it does. The bonuses for Flank and Rear attack are a one shot deal each. You don't get +4 for rear charging with two units, you only get +2. Now, if you charge one unit in the flank and one in the rear, you're looking at a total of +3, but you really can't get to +4...

"Flank Attack... The bonus is only applied once, regardelss of how many flanking units are involved in the combat." [p38]

"Rear Attack... The same rules for a flank attack also apply to units attacking in the rear..."[p38]

Bingo the Fun Monkey
05-11-2006, 20:16
doh! and double doh!

Skyweir
07-11-2006, 00:04
The thing with beast units forming into 4 man ranks is clearly a holdover from the old edition. Since 4 per rank was the minimal to get rank bonus, they formed into that. I expect there to be an errata on this soon.

But even without an errata I would think that the spirit of the rule is quite clear(it's function is clearly to make sure that beast herds can rank up even when fighting small units), and I would certainly think twice about playing people that inisit on reading the wording of the rules instead of the intentions.

Nobody likes a rules lawyer.

kaldour
07-11-2006, 03:11
...I expect there to be an errata on this soon.

But even without an errata I would think that the spirit of the rule is quite clear(it's function is clearly to make sure that beast herds can rank up even when fighting small units)...

I would disagree.
In the White Dwarf that accompanied the release of the 7th ed rules they specifically addressed the two major 'broken' rules from 6th edition... the Bretonnian waifer thing and the 4-rank beastmen. In both cases it was stated that the rule is to be followed as written. The power dice that the bretonnian thing generates can be used to dispel RIP spells and the Beastmen ranking minimum is 4 wide.

As a beast man player I honestly don't mind. All this means is that when I get solo-charged or go up against a monster I don't get my rank bonus. I can live with that in the interest of having comprehensive rules, and I wouldn't call it being a Rules Lawyer since they did specifically address this issue.

DesolationAngel
07-11-2006, 04:37
The thing is though the beasts book was based on 6th edition rules, so they really should rank up 5 wide. However since they don't and the GW forum is going its not going to happen, just means its not worth taking big beast herds anymore, due to a techicality that didn't mesh with the new 7th rules as GW wanted to make a tidy switch.

Strange thing is though some people say herds were too good due to ambush and deserve a drawback, but what about those of us who don't use ambush? nevermind the new march blocking rules.

In anycase I play 40k a lot more, but inconsistency is one thing that I don't like and herds not getting ranks is the only one I can think of in 7th, more annoying as beasts are my only army.

I changed my list and split 2 24 strong herds to 10/14 each, so I would rarely gets ranks anyway, still a silly rule though that as its been in WD won't change knowing GW.

showmydog
07-11-2006, 05:23
T
he thing is though the beasts book was based on 6th edition rules, so they really should rank up 5 wide. However since they don't and the GW forum is going its not going to happen, just means its not worth taking big beast herds anymore...


Yes it still is, just because it says the MINIMUM is 4 models across it does not mean you are limited to 4 models, rather as Kaldour stated

"5 Beastmen have a frontage of 125mm, but since you can go corner to corner, your opponent only needs to have 75mm of frontage for you to get your full 5 across for ranks."

so its still very likely that you will get 5 models across and thus get ranks.
Providing of course that your unit isn't terribly far away (which it shouldn't be due to 1/4 needing to be in range).

Shaitan
07-11-2006, 10:12
Oh... this is turning in the same old discussion again....

To get back on topic, I think it is very viable to play MSU with the BeastmenI. I am actually a mortal player but I have tried the Beastmen in some battles. It worked really nice, and with the Ambush ability your are indeed able to sneak behind enemy lines and get some rear/flank charges. But remember that Beast Herds don't remove ranks (they are skirmishers), you would need ambushing Warhounds or something to do this.

As a mortal player I have often included some big blocks of Marauders to get static combat resolution. And I think they fit very well in the theme as some sort of Chaos Barbarians.

Gorbad Ironclaw
07-11-2006, 11:40
The thing with beast units forming into 4 man ranks is clearly a holdover from the old edition. Since 4 per rank was the minimal to get rank bonus, they formed into that. I expect there to be an errata on this soon.

But even without an errata I would think that the spirit of the rule is quite clear(it's function is clearly to make sure that beast herds can rank up even when fighting small units), and I would certainly think twice about playing people that inisit on reading the wording of the rules instead of the intentions.

Nobody likes a rules lawyer.


Except of course that the designers came out and said they knew about that and considered it a non-issue so not something they would deal with. So thats how it's suppose to be. A minor drawback when you consider the new utility of ambushing.

DesolationAngel
07-11-2006, 11:42
Yes it still is, just because it says the MINIMUM is 4 models across it does not mean you are limited to 4 models, rather as Kaldour stated

"5 Beastmen have a frontage of 125mm, but since you can go corner to corner, your opponent only needs to have 75mm of frontage for you to get your full 5 across for ranks."

so its still very likely that you will get 5 models across and thus get ranks.
Providing of course that your unit isn't terribly far away (which it shouldn't be due to 1/4 needing to be in range).

To avoid going off topic, I will just say it doesn't work against chariots, monsters and characters, the main things you need ranks against. Against ranked units (ie min 75mm frontage), you probably would avoid charging them as you would get less ranks than your opponent and to me beast herds are for taking on small things, which they can't do as well anymore. Imagine 25 strong beast herd getting charged by a chariot, without ranks they don't stand a chance, same against a reasonably hard character or treeman etc.

On ambushs though I can with my list, but its so random I often wouldn't use it. It is useful to reduce your units deployed to get +1 for first turn though and does have its uses (ambush behind a unit, charge from front if they flee and hit them they're gone).

Nebėhr Gudahtt
07-11-2006, 14:06
Stupid question, but what does MSU stand for?

Shaitan
07-11-2006, 14:58
MSU = Multiple Small Units

You can find a thread about it here: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21076

zak
07-11-2006, 15:27
If your letting your herds get charged by these beasties then your playing the herds all wrong. The herds, if they role under their leadership, can pick where to ambush. All you need to do is stay away from the afor mentioned models. Most armies will not leave a monster/chariot just to guard their rear. If you come on at the right place you might even get to charge the chariot and will probably still beat it. Also if you use smaller herds of 15 with maximum number of Ungors then you can throw away one or two herds for little VP's whilst tying up there units left behind to guard their rear.
The beasts are a very good army, and this minor set back, does not mean that they are as an army, dead and buried.

kaldour
07-11-2006, 16:28
The beasts are a very good army, and this minor set back, does not mean that they are as an army, dead and buried.

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh yeah!

Beasts as an army lost their rank bonus against a very limited number of enemy models. In exchange, they are uniquely suited to take advantage of the enemies in the way rule. Not a bad trade.

notsoevil
07-11-2006, 20:54
Ambushing is better now with the new rules. Catch your enemy in a pinch.

Nebėhr Gudahtt
07-11-2006, 21:51
What kind of units do you usually ambush with? Small herds, 10 beasts or so? With or without any sort of command? Bigger units perhaps? Hounds?

DesolationAngel
08-11-2006, 06:53
My list ...

Beasts of Chaos Army List – 2,000pts

Lord Beast Lord with MoCU, Great Weapon, Pelt of the Dark Young, Heavy Armour, Shield and The Dark Heart 160

Hero Bray Shaman (lv2) with MoCU, Staff of Darkoth 135

Hero Bray Shaman (lv2) with MoCU, Bray Staff and 2 Dispel Scrolls 166

Core Tuskgor Chariot with MoCU 85
Core Tuskgor Chariot with MoCU 85
Core Tuskgor Chariot with MoCU 85
Core Tuskgor Chariot with MoCU 85

Core Beast Herd (14) 7 Gors with Two Hand Weapons, 7 Ungors with Spears, Musician and Standard Bearer 92

Core Beast Herd (14) 7 Gors with Two Hand Weapons, 7 Ungors with Spears, Musician and Standard Bearer 92

Core Beast Herd (10) 5 Gors with Two Hand Weapons, 5 Ungors with Spears and Foe Render 75

Core Beast Herd (10) 5 Gors with Two Hand Weapons, 5 Ungors with Spears and Foe Render 75

Core Bestigors (24) with MoCU, Gouge-horn, Musician and Standard Bearer with War Banner 343

Special Centigors (7) with Shields, Gorehoof, Musician and Standard Bearer 168

Special Centigors (7) with Shields, Gorehoof, Musician and Standard Bearer 168

Special Minotaurs (4) with MoCU and Great Weapons 184

1998

12 Units (Plus Characters)
6 Power Dice
4 Dispel Dice
2 Dispel Scrolls

As you can see its a balanced list, that doesn't use ambush much apart from 2 units and with a 50/50 chance of appearing where I want them I don't see it as being worth it. Apart from that the shaman need the bigger unit as a sheild from shooting (and also can't ambush as they need to be on the table, leaving 2 units of 10), last time one unit failed the unruly test and charged a treeman ancient, and got no ranks for example, the herds don't work against ranked units or small things and against things they could take on (light cavalry for example) its 50/50.

The 3 games i've lost were in part due to very bad dice rolling on my part and better than average on my opponents.

Bear in mind not all of us use ambush and its a bit useless against some of the lists ive played against (undead and tree spirits).

Incidently my list is themed by all having the beastman look, hence why there are no furies, warhounds and other fun bits like dragon orges, giants and chosen knights.

Morghat
08-11-2006, 07:35
What kind of units do you usually ambush with? Small herds, 10 beasts or so? With or without any sort of command? Bigger units perhaps? Hounds?

ususally i use 2 herds 5gors/5ungors for ambush, depends of points if i have enought free points then i use only champion in those units ( for higher ld), i dont use hounds for they low ld.

Nebėhr Gudahtt
08-11-2006, 16:17
I was thinking the same thing. I'm doing a Beastmen army (used to use some as support in my Slaanesh mortal army - don't like marauders), and whenever I ask people for advice on ambush the recommend hounds and small beastherds without foe-renders. I'd expect that to be completely unreliable and just as likely to make the units slogging behind the rest of my army, so I just had to check what the general consensus here was. I mean, I might be wrong, never actually played Beastmen under the new rules.

notsoevil
08-11-2006, 16:20
Learn what you need about using Beast Herds here:

http://s2.invisionfree.com/herdstone/index.php?showtopic=5327&st=0

Including Raider Herds, Battle Herds and Super Herds.

For the small ambushing ones you mention, Nebehr, going without a Foe-Render is .. well, stupid. They're a no-brainer points buy for their higher leadership which is needed for using Ambush effectively and not just randomly. In fact, even the smallest Ambushing herd should have a Musician and Foe-render, imho.

Shaitan
09-11-2006, 08:45
I agree with notsoevil that every Beast Herd should have a musician and a Foe-Render.
This gives the unit +1 to all psychology tests, break tests, ambush, and +2 to rally attempts.

A must in my opinion!