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SlaaneshSlave
04-11-2006, 17:09
When multiple units charge a single unit & that unit declairs a Stand & Shoot responce, who do they shoot at?

I think they shoot at the unit that charged first. So, picking the order of chargers can be very important.

But I don't see a rule to specify it that way. Any thoughts?

Von Wibble
04-11-2006, 17:31
I play it the same way - shoot at the unit that declared the charge first. But what about if that unit takes 25% casualties and fails its panic check - do you get a second stand and shoot against the next unit?

Kotobuki
04-11-2006, 17:42
When multiple units declare a charge against a single enemy they're moved simultaneously (p.23). Therefor it wouldn't matter which unit you declared the charge with first, as your opponent would still get the choice of who to shoot at. Note, that you are only allowed to shoot at a single unit charging you. (p.19)

mageith
04-11-2006, 17:54
When multiple units declare a charge against a single enemy they're moved simultaneously (p.23).

If they begin in the same zone.



Therefor it wouldn't matter which unit you declared the charge with first, as your opponent would still get the choice of who to shoot at. Note, that you are only allowed to shoot at a single unit charging you. (p.19)

In other cases, the order of charging makes a difference. If the flank/rear goes first then there will be no subsequent stand and shoot because a unit in close combat cannot shoot. (26)

Kotobuki
04-11-2006, 18:06
All Charges are declared, and reacted to before any chargers are moved, or measured for range. Stand and Shoot is resolved specifically before chargers are moved.(p.19)

mageith
04-11-2006, 18:15
All Charges are declared, and reacted to before any chargers are moved, or measured for range. Stand and Shoot is resolved specifically before chargers are moved.(p.19)

I can't find where it states ALL chargers. Can you give me a little quote. I've read it twice and don't see it. Perhaps I'm just blind today.

Since charges are resolved one at time I don't see your "aLL" rule clearly stated.

In fact on page 23, I read "Charges are resolved one at a time, in the order that they were declared. Remember to resolve any stand and shoot reaction that has been declared against the chargers at this stage, before measuring if the chargers have made it into contact with the intended target!"

In the context of "one at a time" I think the S&S is clearly done individually "...just before moving chargers..." from page 19 where you might be getting your interpretation.

WLBjork
04-11-2006, 18:49
Interesting, page 23 of my RB says when multiple units are charging they are moved in simultaneously. Page 20 says that the charges are resolved one at a time in the order declared ;).

mageith
04-11-2006, 18:57
Interesting, page 23 of my RB says when multiple units are charging they are moved in simultaneously. Page 20 says that the charges are resolved one at a time in the order declared ;).
Page 23 deals with a special case. I don't see it as contradictory.

Page 23 makes explicit something that was assumed in the prior edition.

Perhaps intuitively charges are counted not the order of the charging unit by in the order of the Charged unit.

Mr_Rose
04-11-2006, 19:03
Page twenty refers to charges in general, as in one unit charging another and that when you have unit a charging b and c charging d those are two separate charges a->b and c->d. P.23 is specifically concerned with the special case of e+f both charging g, in which case, e&f move simultaneously and G may chose which unit to shoot at (but not both).

Personally, I think it should be the closest unit, as they represent the greatest threat to the defending unit, but that is an attempt to apply logic to a wargame and therefore doomed to failure...

DeathlessDraich
04-11-2006, 20:36
I agree partially with Kotobuki. The rules do seem to allow the player a choice of which unit is shot at:
pg 19: "If a unit has missile weapons and all of the units charging it are more than half their charge move away... troops can shoot at one of the charging units ..."

A choice is given and it does not always have to be the closest unit as seen below:

Case1: A ranked up missile unit is charged by 2 or more units from the front. Simultaneous movement of chargers so the Player chooses which unit to stand and shoot at.

Case 2: A ranked up unit is first charged in the front and then in flank. The frontal charging unit is shot at.

Case 3: A ranked up unit is first charged in the flank and then in front. Taking the rule above as RAW - the front unit is shot at with the possible exception of the model in the front/flank corner because he is in btb contact with the enemy. However this model is technically not in combat until the combat phase and therefore can shoot? - a grey area!
A rear charge version can be easily evaluated if the flank version is resolved.

Case 4: Skirmishing archers being charged in 2 directions which ends up as a front and flank/rear attack. Only the unit in the 'front' i.e. the first unit can be shot at.

Festus
04-11-2006, 21:09
Hi

You may choose which unit you shoot at before the charger(s) move in.

mageith- A flank charge declared first will have no bearing on that either, as the unit may still do its reaction to the flank charge and fire at another unit that has declared a charge on it. The unit standing and shooting is not compelled to shoot at the unit that is actually charging at the time, but at one of the units which declared a charge against it and which is visible.

Festus

mageith
04-11-2006, 21:10
However this model is technically not in combat until the combat phase and therefore can shoot? - a grey area!

What's gray about it?

Once a unit is contacted from the charge the next step is to....

ALIGN THE COMBATANTS (21)

A unit is in engaged combat from the moment it touches the enemy until they are separated and every moment inbetween.

How is this gray?

mageith
04-11-2006, 21:16
Hi

You may choose which unit you shoot at before the charger(s) move in.

mageith- A flank charge declared first will have no bearing on that either, as the unit may still do its reaction to the flank charge and fire at another unit that has declared a charge on it. The unit standing and shooting is not compelled to shoot at the unit that is actually charging at the time, but at one of the units which declared a charge against it and which is visible.

Festus

Can you cite a rule that give you two charge reactions?

I pointed out the rules that indicate that charges are worked out one at time on page 23 under MOVE CHARGERS. After that comes comes the reminder to Stand & Shoot against the chargers. So I disagree.

I can see that the term "chargers" can be confusing the but the context is pretty clear.

Mage Ith

Festus
04-11-2006, 21:20
Hi

Why two reactions?

They will get just one:

The enemy declares three charges against unit X, namely with

unit A to the back of X
unit B to the front of X and
unit C to the front of X.

Unit X declares S&S. We assume all three units are more than half their chargerange away.

As - or better directly before - Unit A (the first declared unit) moves in, X does its reaction: It fires on unit B. It can equally well fire at unit C.

After that, units B and C move in simultaneously, and X cannot respond as it has already done so.

Festus

DeathlessDraich
04-11-2006, 21:26
What's gray about it?

Once a unit is contacted from the charge the next step is to....

ALIGN THE COMBATANTS (21)

A unit is in engaged combat from the moment it touches the enemy until they are separated and every moment inbetween.

How is this gray?

I see it quite differently. If a unit is in combat then it should be fighting but instead in Warhammer, there's the magic phase and the shooting phase after movement. Combat comes after this and 2 whole phases after chargers have been moved.

This side discussion is taking us away from the crux of this thread.

The relevant question is:
Case 3: (I take it you agree with the other 3?)

can the unit's front rank stand and shoot after being in btb with the enemy in the flank. All but one model is not in btb contact. It is only this model that poses a problem.
Using the shooting rules where individual models determine whether they can shoot, then there is nothing to prevent the models in the front rank from shooting bar the corner model or maybe he can shoot with impunity - and hence the greyness!:D

Then again it could be argued that S&S rules are unique in which case, taken as RAW, S&S is always possible and the player has a choice

mageith
04-11-2006, 21:29
The enemy declares three charges against unit X, namely with

unit A to the back of X
unit B to the front of X and
unit C to the front of X.

Unit X declares S&S. We assume all three units are more than half their chargerange away.

As - or better directly before - Unit A (the first declared unit) moves in, X does its reaction: It fires on unit B. It can equally well fire at unit C.

Based on what rule?

The context is pretty straightforward here.

"Charges are resolved one at a time, in the order they were declared. Remember to resolve any stand and shoot reaction that has been declared agaisnt the chargers at this stage, before measuring if the chargers have made it into contact with the intended target!"

Stand and shoot is done at a very specific time 'at this stage' and at a specific target 'the chargers' who are being resolved.

This is determined by the fact resolution is 'one at time' and sandwiched betwen 'before measuring'. Both of these indicate we are dealing with only the chargers that are moving.

So a flank or rear charge will negate the stand and shoot to other targets.

The only way to read it otherwise is to assume the GW is so bad a writer that they are talking about a specific subphase of Moving Chargers and refering to the term "chargers" as a whole.

mageith
04-11-2006, 21:36
This side discussion is taking us away from the crux of this thread.

The relevant question is:
Case 3: (I take it you agree with the other 3?)

can the unit's front rank stand and shoot after being in btb with the enemy in the flank. All but one model is not in btb contact. It is only this model that poses a problem.

It's not a problem. I quoted the rule. I will quote it again. "Units in hand-to-hand combat are far too busy to use missle weapons and therefore may not shoot." (27)

Your gray area was when does engagement begin, wasn't it?



Using the shooting rules where individual models determine whether they can shoot, then there is nothing to prevent the models in the front rank from shooting bar the corner model or maybe he can shoot with impunity - and hence the greyness!:D

Individual models only determine line of sight (26). Unless you have a rule I don't know about. If so, please quote it.

Festus
04-11-2006, 21:43
Hi

I don't see your problem: A unit declaring a S&S reaction is explicitly permitted to shoot at its chargers. It may shoot at any one unit charging it. It may shoot befor the first of the chargers is moved.

Anything you say goes against those rules, explicitly allowing the unit to shoot if the requirements are met.

compare p.19, left column, and p.20, right column.

It is all in the rules. There is nothing in it to disallow the S&S reaction as long as the unit fulfills all the necessary requirements.

Note especially that S&S reactions are carried out before the chargers move is even measured! As soon as you announce to move the chargers to unit X, it may shoot. Only then do you measure the distance.

Festus

mageith
04-11-2006, 21:52
Hi

I don't see your problem: A unit declaring a S&S reaction is explicitly permitted to shoot at its chargers.

That interpretation is ignoring the context of the rule. I read that it explicitly shoots at the charges that are being resolved.



It may shoot at any one unit charging it. It may shoot befor the first of the chargers is moved.

Not true. S&S occurs "just" before moving chargers which are resolved one at at time. This is reiterated on page 20 with the term "at this stage". You are ignoring words.



Anything you say goes against those rules, explicitly allowing the unit to shoot if the requirements are met.

compare p.19, left column, and p.20, right column.

It is all in the rules. There is nothing in it to disallow the S&S reaction as long as the unit fulfills all the necessary requirements.

context



Note especially that S&S reactions are carried out before the chargers move is even measured! As soon as you announce to move the chargers to unit X, it may shoot. Only then do you measure the distance.

Disagree. Charges are worked out one at time. The S&S against that specific charger is resolved "at that stage".

I've said the same thing over and over and you've shown nothing new. So clearly we aren't going to agree. I think there's a specific context here and you don't.

So it is.

Mage Ith

Festus
04-11-2006, 21:57
Hi

Unfortunately it isn't, as the context you are refeing to is in your mind only... It is just you who say that you have to shoot at a specific charger here, and you want to extrapolate it by some *context*.

Fact is, that the rules state that the charged are allowed to shoot at the *chargers*.
Chargers happens to be plural. Coupled with the explicit permission to shoot at any one charging unit (if requirements are met), there is nothing which restricts this.

It is just you who wants to restrict this to *the unit that just now charges the other unit* and this is not the rules, but soemthing you call *context*. :confused:

Festus

mageith
04-11-2006, 22:10
Unfortunately it isn't, as the context you are refeing to is in your mind only... It is just you who say that you have to shoot at a specific charger here, and you want to extrapolate it by some *context*.

Yes I've taken the words and actually passed them through my mind. Yes, I've actually read all the words in their context in order to make sense out them.

page 20.

"Charges are resolved one at a time. In the order they are declared. Remember to resolve any stand and shoot reaction that has been declared against the chargers at this stage, before measuring against the chargers at this stage, before measuring if the chargers have made it into contact with the intended target!"

The chargers this paragraph discusses is the charge that is being resolved, not later charges.

If you think you can resolve the third charge before the first, that's fine with me. It wouldn't even make sense if the shooters have short ranged weapons.

Mage Ith

DeathlessDraich
04-11-2006, 22:27
Doesn't that statement seem strange to you, Mageith.
It does say to resolve the S&S. If this S&S is impossible then how can it be resolved?

mageith
04-11-2006, 22:29
Doesn't that statement seem strange to you, Mageith.
It does say to resolve the S&S. If this S&S is impossible then how can it be resolved?
I'm not sure to what you refer.

Yellow Commissar
05-11-2006, 02:46
Mage Ith, I like your logic, but I think you missed page 23, Multiple Charges. It is an exception to the normal charge sequence. A unit would be allowed to S&S regardless of which unit charged first.

Yellow Commissar
05-11-2006, 03:40
Oops. Sorry, Mage Ith.:o I just reread Multiple Chargers. You are absolutely correct. The situation the OP was referring to was not a Multiple Charge, but a Flank & Rear Charge. If a unit was charged in the flank or rear before being charged in the front, its charge reaction could not be a S&S (page 26, 19). It's amazing how clear the rules become when they are read in context.;)

Festus
05-11-2006, 07:22
Hi

It wouldn't even make sense if the shooters have short ranged weapons.

If you want to talk *making sense*, you could better approach the phenomenon by realising that the chargers are all moved in the *move chargers subphase*.
All chargers are moved at basically the same time, and it takes some time for them to reach their enemy (this is a simulation, remember? The units will not move one by one. We only do this because we cannot move them all simultaneously, lacking quite a few hands. In previous editions, you didnb't even have the concept of simultaneous charges. It was brought into the rules this time to improve the simulation). This is the reason why units are allowed to S&S if the enemy is more than half their charge range away, and not allowed if they are closer: It reflects the time the unit has to respond.

Lets call the time of the charge phase "X".

You may only shoot if you have at least X/2 time. you will need the other X/2 to prepare for the onslaught and the ensuing fight.

If you have this time (ie. all the chargers are more than half their charge reach away), you may fire and then prepare yourself. If you haven't, you are caught by the closest unit and don't have time to respond, because you will be hard pressed even to ready yourself for the meele.

Festus

Jospainjr
05-11-2006, 07:42
When multiple units declare a charge against a single enemy they're moved simultaneously (p.23). Therefor it wouldn't matter which unit you declared the charge with first, as your opponent would still get the choice of who to shoot at. Note, that you are only allowed to shoot at a single unit charging you. (p.19)

This is 100% correct!!!

WLBjork
05-11-2006, 07:52
Read page 23 again.

Charges are only simultaneous for each facing.


When two or more friendly units are charging against a single enemy unit's front, flank or rear they are moved in simultaneously...

DeathlessDraich
05-11-2006, 09:20
I'm talking solely about a S&S unit first charged in the flank and then the front.

I'm not sure to what you refer.

The statement on Move chargers - pg 20.

"Charges are resolved one at a time in the order they are declared. Remember to resolve any stand and shoot reaction that has been declared against the chargers* at this stage, before measuring if the chargers** have made it into contact with the intended target"

'Any S&S' - the S&S must be resolved.
'chargers*' - unfortunately this has 2 possible meanings - single unit ( chargers being the models in a unit) or multiple units (chargers being different units).
'chargers**' - unfortunately this could refer to the previous single unit of chargers or other charging units as well. If the latter definition is taken then S&S occurs before either the flanking or frontal unit has charged.

Looking at it from your point of view, Mageith, you've defined chargers as the same single unit in each case i.e. the rule is carried out for each declared charge in the sequence below:

1) The flank unit charges - no S&S and it moves into btb.
2) The front unit then charges. The S&S must be resolved by the statement above. I can see nothing in the above statement that says that this cannot be done now!

The above statement still does not restrict this S&S. The S&S rules on pg 19 also does not restrict this S&S. It refers to the shooting section on pg 25 which doesn't help!
If the S&S rules referred to pg 26, Shooting & Combat, then you have an arguable point, Mageith but it does not; it says pg 25.
IF the S&S rules means the whole Chapter on Shooting (which it does not), then again S&S violates too many shooting rules - especially since it is in the wrong phase and wrong turn!:eek:

Sorry, I've tried to argue it from your point of view and it does not solve the problem.

Yellow Commissar
05-11-2006, 13:01
DeathlessDraich said"The above statement still does not restrict this S&S. The S&S rules on pg 19 also does not restrict this S&S. It refers to the shooting section on pg 25 which doesn't help!
If the S&S rules referred to pg 26, Shooting & Combat, then you have an arguable point, Mageith but it does not; it says pg 25.
IF the S&S rules means the whole Chapter on Shooting (which it does not), then again S&S violates too many shooting rules - especially since it is in the wrong phase and wrong turn!"

You obviously believe you are right and if we were playing a game, I would simply allow you to S&S as per TMIR on page 3.

I don't, however, believe you are correct. Page 26 is part of the shooting section and is referred to when the book refers us to page 25 and the Shooting chapter. By your logic S&S would also ignore the LOS and range rules!

To further my point, if your logic is used no one would ever have any spells.
Page 2 (Select Spells) refers us to the Magic section and page 107. The rules for selecting spells are on page 111.

The rules only exist in context. The rulebook is not a list of rules or laws, but an entire book. Lets not forget TMIR on page 3. The rest of the book must be read within its context.

Festus
05-11-2006, 13:45
Hi

By your logic S&S would also ignore the LOS and range rules!

And funnily, they do in a certain way: he range rule is explicitly altered so that the unit to be shot at has to move into range of the charged unit first (p.19), and the LoS rule is not given in the shooting section at all: You are reffered to p.8, where the rules for LoS are given. There it is said that a model may not shoot at a model it cannot see (p.8!)

The rules only exist in context. The rulebook is not a list of rules or laws, but an entire book.
It is both. But the book also states that a stand and shoot reaction will be carried out before any chargers are moved during the *move Chargers* subphase of the turn, as detailed on p. 19.

The stipulation that a unit may only shoot at the particular charger which is moved first is not in the rules and only inferred by your selective reading of *chargers* as *one unit which is just moving to charge*. This is an overinterpretation and is neither founded by a literal reading of the rules (RAW) nor an - imaginary - realism of the rules as a simulation.

What would you do if three single characters A, B, and C charged unit X? Now the rules are crystal clear as they refer to chargers in the plural and you cannot disallow unit X to stand and shoot at one of its chargerS, as the plural is still used in the rule :rolleyes:

The rules explicitly allow the unit to fire at ANY charger who declared a charge on the unit. Period.

Festus

mageith
05-11-2006, 14:37
The stipulation that a unit may only shoot at the particular charger which is moved first is not in the rules and only inferred by your selective reading of *chargers* as *one unit which is just moving to charge*.

The context of the word "chargers" on page 20 under MOVE CHARGERS is indeed the crux.

What you call 'selective' I call reading the rules in their context so as to obtain the proper reference.

The proper context is that charges are resolved one a time (with the exception of course of charges into the same zone). This would include the Stand and shoot which is explicitly refered on page 20 to occur "at this stage", with "stage" refering to resolving charges one at time.

Deathless did a good job of explaining how the term "chargers", out of context, can refer to more than just the charging unit being resolved. However I think the next sentence which reiterates about measuring to the "intended target!" (20) sandwiches the context nicely and indicates "chargers" refers to the particular charging unit and not all charging units.

Anyway, that's how I read it. Apparently I am overwhelmed and will concede the point on this one.

Mage Ith

Yellow Commissar
05-11-2006, 16:38
@ Mage Ith: You may be overwhelmed, but you are correct.

Festus said "It is both. But the book also states that a stand and shoot reaction will be carried out before any chargers are moved during the *move Chargers* subphase of the turn, as detailed on p. 19."

If you are going to quote the rules, don't add words to them. Page 19 does not say "any" chargers.


Festus said" This is an overinterpretation and is neither founded by a literal reading of the rules (RAW) nor an - imaginary - realism of the rules as a simulation."

Actually it IS founded in the literal reading of the rules( Is there any other kind of reading the rules?). Mage Ith has repeatedly referenced the page# and paragraph he is referring to. Therefore his (and my) opinion is founded in the rules. I agree about the realism, no one is talking about a realistic simulation here, we are talking about WFB.

Apparently we are not going to agree here. I think the sticking point is that some still think the Multiple Chargers rule is what the debate is about. If the unit is charged from multiple sides, that rule does not apply. I suppose, were we to play, that we would have to roll off or come to some other agreement about it. I do see your POV, I just don't think you are approaching the debate from the perspective of TMIR.

Festus
05-11-2006, 17:02
Hi

First: There is this little quote feature on these boards. If you are not familiar with it, please visit the FAQ.

Then it looks like this:

If you are going to quote the rules, don't add words to them...
I cannot add anything, because I cannot quote: I am in Germany (see my location to the left, and have the German rulebook. I am translating as I am going along...

Actually it IS founded in the literal reading of the rules( Is there any other kind of reading the rules?). Mage Ith has repeatedly referenced the page# and paragraph he is referring to. Therefore his (and my) opinion is founded in the rules.
As is mine, and funnily enough we both always refer to the same rules on the same pages.
The argument simply revolves around the term *chargers* on p.20, if you have not grasped this particular problem yet... :eyebrows:


I think the sticking point is that some still think the Multiple Chargers rule is what the debate is about.
Maybe you should get your facts straight and read the last few pages of this thread? The Multiple Chargers problem does not even factor into it... :rolleyes:

I do see your POV, I just don't think you are approaching the debate from the perspective of TMIR.
1st: I am approaching the rules problem, not the debate.
2nd: What you call TMIR is a *catch all rule* which has to cover things not already covered by the rules. Here we have rules. We just disagree on their interpretation...
3rd:
I agree about the realism, no one is talking about a realistic simulation here, we are talking about WFB.

If this is not what TMIR covers (namely: creating realism and suspension of disbelief within a fantasy game), then this rule has no other effect than to be a built-in refferee. In this case, it wont help a bit here.
4th: The whole point of this thread is an exercise in rules interpretation, as the situation itself will only rarely present itself in a game. The rules give a different meaning simply by allowing ONE WORD to mean different things (and in both cases it is proper English). The process of debating it will give quite a few some insights into how GW rules in general and WHFB rules in particular are written and how they are to be read.

Festus