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View Full Version : Dreamforge titans....where to buy?



TheWarSmith
07-11-2006, 04:09
Where, if at all, can I buy these models. I'm pretty sure GW sued dreamforge for producing them, but are they available anywhere?

insaniak
07-11-2006, 04:47
They didn't actually sue... just sent a cease and desist.

Good luck finding them anywhere... Dreamforge aren't still selling them, and the very few people who bought one are unlikely to be parting with them any time soon.

Darkseer
07-11-2006, 07:43
That's a shame, I was thinking about getting one.

leonmallett
07-11-2006, 08:15
That is quite nice if a little cartoony. Then i realised how flippin' big it is. Crikey.

ss_cherubael
07-11-2006, 08:20
i want one! bloody nice never seen em before today. Damn GW legal and their anoying C&D letters!!!!!! i doubt anyone would be willing to part with one if they had one as they rock.

Darkseer
07-11-2006, 09:56
The company is still up on the web, but they only appear to be selling one kit.

I'm going to email them and 'ask a question' ;)

HJL
07-11-2006, 11:22
i wonder why gw got so pissy about it, its not like they were ever going to make an imperiator tital kit :\

if anything id say it only helps to add to the flavour of the game!

ss_cherubael
07-11-2006, 11:23
Yeah but GW are total WHORES when it comes to their ideas and take it way over the top, because its so obvious that everyone and their dog wants to make rip off toy soldiers.....

Brimstone
07-11-2006, 11:36
IP is very important to all companies I suggest you spend some time studying it.

GW have to persue all potential impacts even if they do not currently produce such a model.

In this case those models clearly contain parts 'inspired' *cough* by GW parts (Chainsword, Assault Cannons & Titan legs) to name but a few).

Sale would have impacted on FW both their Warhound and any future larger titan sales.

A small amount of these were sold before they had to stop and very rarely come up for sale.

Trying to get a company to produce a model they can't and then discussing it on a forum frequented by GW is not the smartest thing in the world.

Tastyfish
07-11-2006, 11:42
Yeah but GW are total WHORES when it comes to their ideas and take it way over the top, because its so obvious that everyone and their dog wants to make rip off toy soldiers.....

Legally, if you're not then it disappears and you end up with no control of your own license anymore. You can't let some things slide and not others if you ever want to take legal action against someone else later on.

That said, they are really lacking in detail for the size they are. You could probably make your own easy enough.

HiveFleetEzekial
07-11-2006, 11:47
thing's not even the correct size for a full on imperetor titan. maybe around the mid size range, but certainly not the biggest. they showed one, home-made by GW staffers in an ollllld WD, and the very tips of the toes (angled, not curved with no edges like that one), were over the tops of all the normal sized infantry on the board. this thing's a weenie by comparison. FW's warhound would come up to about halfway up that thing's 'thigh's. correct size, the warhound should barely be past the halfway mark on the grieves over it's feet (about 1/3 under the 'knees' on this shrimp)

Mojaco
07-11-2006, 11:57
It's ugly. It's very like 2nd edition artwork and then a little worse.
Give me the gritty Warlord of today anyday.

ss_cherubael
07-11-2006, 12:14
@brimstone, i have studied it at length and i realise how much it means, but come on why not ask them to make stuff for gw under a contract or something and they would make stacks. and they take things way too seriously sometimes, i wonder how long itll be till they crack down on scratch built stuff as it resembles something they may wish to make one day, all the legal stuff is over the top and people need to "harden the **** up", i doubt anyone could possibly undercut gw or fw any time soon as they are far too established and are out there and provide more than mere minis, come on get over it.

Darkseer
07-11-2006, 12:18
Of all the things to rip off that GW produces there are so many other things that would be cheaper to produce, would sell in greater quantities and wouldn't infringe on GW's IP (or if they did it would be near impossible to back up).

Slaaneshi Slave
07-11-2006, 12:23
i doubt anyone could possibly undercut gw or fw any time soon

Yes, because 85 (FW KoS) for something which probably cost them 5 to make (including labour and materials) leaves no room for somebody to undercut them.

ss_cherubael
07-11-2006, 12:24
the problem is that they would try and that would make most small companies fold pretty quickly, why not become the next armour cast? that would be cool, they obviously have some skill at what they do and fw isnt making titans that size.

yeah, they cant be under cut so why whinge about something this small, why not turn it to their advantage and make more money off it with out killing perfectly good minis.

Mojaco
07-11-2006, 12:25
@ Darkseer: Like Gothic SF terrain, which plenty of compagnies do :)

@ Slaaneshi Slave: Takes quite some time to design that thing. And it doesn't sale in huge quantities. Added together, 85 might be a fair price. Look at the Avater right now. That one is cheaper for probably a similar size, simply because it's quantity is likely to be bigger (although a lot of people dislike the design...)

Darkseer
07-11-2006, 12:29
@Mojaco: I was thinking of miniatures actually.

This is something I am going to look into over Christmas.

ss_cherubael
07-11-2006, 12:32
mojaco do the math on how many have probably sold world wide and then factor in paying however many guys sculpted it (a bit, but probably not that much) and the cost of the mould (they reckon it costs 100 000 a mould but even if thats true they would make a killing on fw minis). The mark up like most retailers would be around 85% since they make and sell the thing. sorry i thik this thread may have to get back on topic (really needed to vent my spleen about this tho)

Kittah
07-11-2006, 13:07
@brimstone, i have studied it at length and i realise how much it means, but come on why not ask them to make stuff for gw under a contract or something and they would make stacks. and they take things way too seriously sometimes, i wonder how long itll be till they crack down on scratch built stuff as it resembles something they may wish to make one day, all the legal stuff is over the top and people need to "harden the **** up", i doubt anyone could possibly undercut gw or fw any time soon as they are far too established and are out there and provide more than mere minis, come on get over it.

Internet tough guy eh? Seriously though, I daresay you haven't studied it 'at length' or perhaps you would realise and accept why they do what they do. As has been said, it becomes very difficult to stop if you let someone use even some of your ideas. You cannot tell someone to 'harden up' when they are protecting something they have every right to protect. Indeed, Games Workshop is 'hardening up' as they're not so 'pussy' as to just let it go :rolleyes:

As for making things for Games Workshop under a contract, that model is at least as poor quality/detail as the old Armourcast products. Comparing that model to Games Workshop's current quality, would you wish to be associated (even unofficially) with someone who created that? It's a good base model, but not a finished product for a good impression to customers.

And your comment on scratch-built stuff, are you sure you've studied intellectual property? :rolleyes:

TheWarSmith
07-11-2006, 13:34
Yes, because £85 (FW KoS) for something which probably cost them £5 to make (including labour and materials) leaves no room for somebody to undercut them.

Keep in mind you're paying for the sculptor's salary, the mold materials, the mold making labor, the resin, their overhead, etc. when you buy a FW model. I'm not going to bitch about price. They're truly artists, and as such, they can demand premiums for reproductions of their work.

I see the point made about these detracting from warhound sales.

Btw, is an imperiator or warlord titan bigger? I think somebody said these were made to be the smaller of the 2. It stands 24" tall.

Darkseer, I also send them a "question", but I doubt I'll get a good response.

Slaaneshi Slave
07-11-2006, 13:36
I'm not complaining about the price, I did buy one after all. The way I look at, if I can't make something myself for cheaper than I can buy it, then the price is good.

Urza
07-11-2006, 13:40
And your comment on scratch-built stuff, are you sure you've studied intellectual property? :rolleyes:

Additionally, if you scratch-build a model you're not exactly mass-producing it to sell in order to make profit, unlike Dreamforge were trying to do with their Titan rip-offs.

Seriously though, the Dreamforge Titans were very nice, but they were such an incredible rip-off of GW Titans that I'm stunned that they honestly thought that they would get away with it. The weapons, legs and cathedral archetecture are clearly 'heavily inspired' by GW IP, and the head on that second one is a direct and identical copy of the head on the original plastic Warlord Titans that were included in Adeptus Titanicus when it was originally released.

Dreamforge's Titans were a blatent violation of GW's IP legislation, and they should consider themselves lucky that they only got a Cease and Desist, rather than a full blown lawsuit.

Darkseer
07-11-2006, 13:53
If you cast up a GW model (or use a GW design) and mass produce it for yourself it's perfectly legal.

It's only when you try to sell it to others that it becomes illegal.

Urza
07-11-2006, 13:57
Exactly, which is why it always strikes me as weird that over at Bolter and Chaisword it's against the forum rules to discuss Green-Stuff Casting.. :rolleyes:

Slaaneshi Slave
07-11-2006, 13:59
So somebody could in theory cast themselves a few dozen sprews and make an entire army for dirt cheap, perfectly legally? :shock:

t-tauri
07-11-2006, 14:00
If you cast up a GW model (or use a GW design) and mass produce it for yourself it's perfectly legal.


It isn't in the UK. The people who say this are trying to use the "fair use" clause which applies to copying sections of books. That only applies for education or research use. In the UK you can't even copy your CDs to your MP3 player legally (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6095612.stm).

TheWarSmith
07-11-2006, 14:00
So any clue how many are still out there? Do these come up on ebay on occasion?

t-tauri
07-11-2006, 14:02
So any clue how many are still out there? Do these come up on ebay on occasion?
I've not seen one on ebay. I can't imagine there are that many out there since the use of GW parts was spotted as soon as they were announced and the GW legal team were on them fairly rapidly.

Iron Buddha
07-11-2006, 14:04
I personelly think that they look like pure unadulterated crap. I wouldnt buy one if they cost the same as that fella down by his toe. GW wouldnt offer dreamforge a chance to produce this sort of model because they just arent that good at it, hell, given a week and about 15-20$ I could make something better than this from scratch. I would be ashamed to put it on the table. Even if GW didnt care about protecting their IP they would care about the quality in which it was being portrayed. Bottom line is GW not only cares about their IP but also the quality in which it is portrayed.

TheWarSmith
07-11-2006, 14:13
I'll challenge you on that one. I'd like to see you make something that good.

ss_cherubael
07-11-2006, 14:14
fair enough, i dont mind em and was just throwing out ideas. Its just a pet hate, legal ******** that is. They do have every right to crack down on them i guess (depending on what country they are in) it would just be nice to see them not do that all the time, and just get over it, ideas are there to share and expand upon not to keep under lock and key (in some lawyers desk). I do realise that the laws regarding IP on come into play when u try to sell stuff but what i was saying was an extrapolation and what could actually happen down the track if this sort of legal stuff is the first thing they jump too when someone makes something that looks like something they made a decade ago.
@Iron buddha: ok go ahead then....lol. your opinion and i respect that.
and some one email fw and ask em what cost price would be on a KOS.

The Ape
07-11-2006, 15:14
IP is quite complex but a quick summary here of the relevant points:

"copyright" i.e. the "right to copy" - only the holder of the copyright can make ANY copies/use in a certain way (under UK law) unless they give you a specific licence to do so.

"trademark" i.e. mark of quality/distinction/recognition. Company's have to aggressively protect this as if it isnt then the trademark will become diluted and will lose them money. In GW's case, if they let anyone go around selling models/games etc based on their universe that are of a poor standard then this will end up with people associating that poor quality with the company as a whole, thus diluting the trademark. Which is why Dreamforge probably wouldnt get a contract from GW.

It's also worth noting that almost all of GW's IP is protected by UK law, even in the USA. This is because of numerous (dull) reciprocal IP agreements between countries that protect the IP of the company depending upon the countries origin.

Therefore even making your own molds of GW models is technically illegal as you dont have the right to "copy" them.

chaos0xomega
07-11-2006, 22:42
Wow, open up your eyes, I personally liek tehse a lot better than the overpriced crap FW produced. Oh, and if you do find one of these on ebay, good luck affording it, they cost 500+ american when they were new, now that the company is pretty much gone, it is bound to be worth a lot more than that.

Oh, and it wasn't a blatant rip-off of GW, the company was actually trying to make it's own wargame, drawing on inspiration from various sources, including GW.

insaniak
07-11-2006, 22:55
ideas are there to share and expand upon not to keep under lock and key

Not when your ideas are where your income comes from.

If you create something new, you have every right to profit from it. Somebody else coming along and cashing in on your ideas and your name is reducing your chance of making money from your creation.

That's why IP and copyright laws exist. So people get what they're entitled to from their own creations.

TheWarSmith
07-11-2006, 22:59
The design isn't very original at all though, to be honest. Look at these GW imperator titans

stonefox
08-11-2006, 00:19
The people who made those should just make them different enough (degrees/points of difference or whatever they're called) so they can't be sued. It's what GW does to all of the ideas it ripped off too.

luchog
08-11-2006, 00:39
Legally, if you're not then it disappears and you end up with no control of your own license anymore. You can't let some things slide and not others if you ever want to take legal action against someone else later on.

No. Copyright is nothing like trademarks. You cannot lose a copyright by failing to defend it, the way you can with trademarks. Copyright is automatic with the creation of a work (though registering copyright makes it much easier to defend); and can only be lost through expiration or explicitly releasing to the public domain.

TheWarSmith
08-11-2006, 03:43
You guys do realize that copyright/trademark/etc. laws probably are severely different between the US and UK, right? So arguing against each other on the assumption of equal laws is kind of silly.

ss_cherubael
08-11-2006, 03:52
cant believe this hasnt been shut yet...
My god, i really doubt anything gw has ever produced hasnt been stolen from somewhere out there they are the biggest thieves going (which is why their so good btw) and no one has had a go at them that i know of. Actually on a funny note about copy right and trade marks Cadbury chocolate INC. has actually copy righted and trademarked the colour purple they use (lich purple is the same colour) and i havent seen them come a knocking at gw door. see its easy to get along!

Iya
08-11-2006, 03:55
You guys do realize that copyright/trademark/etc. laws probably are severely different between the US and UK, right?

According to a poster above, the US and the UK agreed to enforce each other's laws about copyright.

While that sounds like a simplification, I'm willing to believe treaties exist that make it even more headache-inducing than we think it is by giving weight to the laws of the other country.

ss_cherubael
08-11-2006, 04:01
yeah they exist but are down right confusing due to things like the countries own statute law, rights of people, and precident which can over rule them very easily.

insaniak
08-11-2006, 04:29
My god, i really doubt anything gw has ever produced hasnt been stolen from somewhere out there they are the biggest thieves going (which is why their so good btw) and no one has had a go at them that i know of.
That's because GW are very careful about how far they push it.

There's a line between 'inspired by' and a direct copy, which is defined within copyright law. As I understanf it, it mostly revolves around points of similarity and the like.

GW are very careful not to cross that line. While most of their lines are inspired by various existing sources, they don't just blatantly copy other people's designs. They're always modified enough to count as being inspired rather than copied.

As an example of GW not crossing that line, check out the recent thread with the Wiki page of unreleased minis. You'll find, amongst a host of other miniatures, some Tomb Guard that were not released due to looking just too much like the Guards from a certain Mummy movie...

Where these small companies like Dreamforge go wrong is in stepping a little too close to the line. GW are very concientious about defending their IP, and so will send a Cease and Desist letter. The small company then has a choice to either stop producing the offending model, or argue their case in court. Most choose the former.



So far as international agreements go, the current International Copyright agreement grants a copyright owner the same protection in all signatory countries as they would have in their own country. Which means, (as I understand it, and admittedly I'm not an IP lawyer) that GW is covered by UK Copyright Law in all countries that are signatories of the International Copyright Agreement.

Added to which, the US 'Fair Use' clause has always been a bit hazy as a justification for copying miniatures for your own use anyway. It allows copying under certain (rather hazily defined) situations. It doesn't allow wholesale copying just because you want to do so.

scrubout
08-11-2006, 04:36
Dreamforge's forum seems pretty dead now...but I did hear a murmur about paper plans of some models of theirs.

Something about someone and an 'armorbimbo'...a quick google search gave me a paper world site where someone had printed a rather lame looking red tears space marine army...and then I got bored and decided I should be drinking black coffee and finishing painting my models.

Let it be put on the record that I did not complain about GW in this post.......I'll save it for another day (hey, I am a warseer member after all!)...:p :D

-peace out
scrubout:skull:

stonefox
08-11-2006, 20:55
Yeah, Insaniak's right. Like I said earlier, GW may take "inspiration" (steal) other ideas, but they do it in a way that it's different enough for them not to get sued. What I think would be really smart, and really grand, is if another company took every one of GW's creations (eh, they were all "inspired" elsewhere anyway) and create enough points of difference that they could get away with it. If they had low prices and great sculpts, the GW-playing crowd, at least the ones who don't go to GW for all their info, will love it. Call it "Warzone 4000" or something. lol :)

It's a strategy I think would be great, but unfortunately no mini company has done anything of the sort. I'm sure PP, Rackham, or any other reasonable mini company can equal or surpass GW sculpts.

insaniak
08-11-2006, 21:35
It's a strategy I think would be great, but unfortunately no mini company has done anything of the sort.
Actually there was a company called Demonblade that produced a range of miniatures for a game called Shockforce (post apocalyptic Earth game) that included a bunch of not-Space Marines, beastmen, mutants, orcs, goblins (orcs and goblins were both mutants), savages in ratskins, killer androids, and human soldiers that looked remarkably like Cadians.

Not sure if they were closed down by GW or just faded away, although there is still a US company selling a lot of the miniatures. They're not very good by today's standards, but don't look too bad painted up beside 2nd edition models.

There have also been a couple of companies that tried producing Space Marine-ish figures, but they generally didn't last very long. And there's a Russian company producing plastic Eschers in 40mm, but the only reason they're still around (if they still are... it was a while ago that I saw them) is that Russia doesn't put a lot of effort into enforcing copyright

cthorpe
08-11-2006, 22:04
Hi there guys..

As a member of the Dreamforge forum.. I can say that things are pretty dead there.. even correspondence with the guy producing the material has dried up..

I do know that he took up a full time job doing things other than casting models..

Dreamforge had a lot of problems in casting.. each one was cast to order.. (I had one on order but then GW pulled the plug).. so I never got my Titan..

I have seen one in the flesh though.. they are superb.. yes the detailing was not as good as Forgeworld.. but that left opportunities to do your own thing on it..

Even their non Titan has been pulled, the 'Black Widow' is out of stock.. and apparently will not be cast until sometime in the distant future :(

So unfortunately dont hold out too much hopes for them.. but who knows..

Yes there are templates for a paper titan as scrubout mentions.. if anyone is interested PM me.. its amazing what I can find on my hard drive ;)

Best wishes.. in the hopes that Dreamforge will one day rise again,

Carl

t-tauri
08-11-2006, 22:18
Actually there was a company called Demonblade that produced a range of miniatures for a game called Shockforce (post apocalyptic Earth game) that included a bunch of not-Space Marines, beastmen, mutants, orcs, goblins (orcs and goblins were both mutants), savages in ratskins, killer androids, and human soldiers that looked remarkably like Cadians.

Demonblade went down acrimoniously when they were taken over by Excelsior (who also took out Warzone). Shockforce and the minis are still available through an ebay store (http://stores.ebay.co.uk/Shockforce-Warehouse) and include some lovely space not-skaven. Their sculpts were never challenged by GW except for one which was suspiciously similar to an Ork dread and was pulled.

The only major range of minis I'm aware of to get the full force of GW legal was Enigma Miniatures (http://members.aol.com/drdresch/galengmb.htm) who went over the line from "inspiration" to straight out "rip off." The company stopped producing these rather quickly.

cav da man
08-11-2006, 22:22
thats a great link there, i especially like the shock sisters wearing *almost* power armor with breast plates :D. At least they have the decency to look like theyre not just the women who won the "miss power armour" contest and just want to show off for the guys, believe it or not warrior nuns should not all look like that.

luchog
08-11-2006, 23:39
You guys do realize that copyright/trademark/etc. laws probably are severely different between the US and UK, right? So arguing against each other on the assumption of equal laws is kind of silly.

Not that much, since both the US and UK are Berne Convention signatories. There will be some differences, but the key legal principles will be the same.


Actually on a funny note about copy right and trade marks Cadbury chocolate INC. has actually copy righted and trademarked the colour purple they use (lich purple is the same colour) and i havent seen them come a knocking at gw door. see its easy to get along!
Under international Trademark law, GW is doing nothing wrong. Trademark elements are only an issue when the business are competing in the same market and there is the potential for brand confusion. If GW was making chocolate or candy products, then Cadbury would be able to stop them using their trademark shade of purple. Since they're not, there is no potential for brand confusion if GW chooses to use that shade of purple in their logo, and therefore no grounds for action by Cadbury. Since GW isn't using it in their logo, but only in a pot of paint, bringing the issue up in the first place, as if it might be a valid grounds for legal action, is patently ludicrious.


And there's a Russian company producing plastic Eschers in 40mm, but the only reason they're still around (if they still are... it was a while ago that I saw them) is that Russia doesn't put a lot of effort into enforcing copyright

You wouldn't happen to have any more info?

insaniak
09-11-2006, 00:31
Nope... can't remember the name of the company. They pop up on eBay every now and then, though.

RedSarge
09-11-2006, 04:14
To be perfectly honest they lack any of the detail that Forgeworld is best known for. Those titans would require a large amount of "gubbins" or plasti-card bitz in order to match the current high quality GW has. (Or for Chaos players a great deal of spikey bitz and markings)
They would have been ok back in the Armor Cast days... bright "toy red" Great Gargants anyone?

Axel
09-11-2006, 08:14
are very concientious about defending their IP, and so will send a Cease and Desist letter. The small company then has a choice to either stop producing the offending model, or argue their case in court. Most choose the former..

Which GW is usually too willing to accept, too. A court ruling AGAINST their IP could break dams. Thats a can of worms they do not want to open, too.

Jedi152
09-11-2006, 08:28
How's about Snifdog? Anyone remember them?

Their Baneblade, and 'Leaman Roos' tanks suddenly vanished.

insaniak
09-11-2006, 09:18
Snifdog are still around. Or at least their website is. The more GW-looking vehicles have indeed vanished, although they still have some rather Russ-looking turrets on the site.

idinos
09-11-2006, 09:30
It's ok cherubael, when you grow up and get out of school you will understand why it is really dangerous and annoying for others to steal your ideas, especially when you base your livelihood on them. Until then, you can continue ranting about GW being whores for trying to protect their IP. I mean, it is certain that a 17 year old child knows more about copyright laws than GW's battery of lawyers.

Agamemnon2
09-11-2006, 09:43
I wonder how many DF titans even made it out the doors, I've heard estimates as low as 4-5, total.

stonefox
09-11-2006, 10:05
Thanks for the heads-up t-tauri and Insaniak. Looks good for 2nd ed. Now if only Rackham or PP started their own futuristic game or another fantasy line that involved not-Brets, not-Skaven, and co... their skill and detail are surely up for it. Perhaps in time they might just go for it if they have enough momentum to do such a ballsy thing.

RedSarge
15-11-2006, 01:48
Minor bump.


I found a picture of a Dreamforge Titan used in Siege World 2005
http://img105.imagevenue.com/loc415/th_55209_SW2005_0_122_415lo.jpg (http://img105.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=55209_SW2005_0_122_415lo.jpg)

I just threw this one in for fun. :D
http://img150.imagevenue.com/loc554/th_55213_DIE!_122_554lo.jpg (http://img150.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=55213_DIE!_122_554lo.jpg)

Vaktathi
15-11-2006, 02:24
Holy crap, those things are the size of a small child!

man that'd be awesome to play with one of those, but a total b*tch to paint and kinda big to just put anywhere.

CaptainExctasy
15-11-2006, 03:43
I am not going to get into the law side of things, seem we have enough lawyers on here for that:rolleyes:

I like the models. They look great and i can see plenty of conversion potential. I love the Khorne Titan. I want one of those for sure!