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Mordu22
07-11-2006, 16:45
If armed witha Magical weapon, does a model still get +1 armor save in close combat? I have seen both yes and no's posted. It does state that they cannot use any other close combat weapons, although it can carry a shield as normal. Others state that it looses it's hand weapon status because it is magical, so you cannot benifiet from a handweapon and shield. To me this seems tough to swallow because handweapon is not a "special rule". whats the verdict?

metro_gnome
07-11-2006, 16:48
no... the HW/shield rules is for hand weapons only...
magic weapons are exempt unless they are stated as a Hand weapon of some sort...

Mordu22
07-11-2006, 16:56
So despite what the rules say "can carry a shield as normal". they meant can carry a shield but do not gain a +1 armour bonus in CC? Why put that it can carry a shield as normal if they cannt? GW you crazy:eyebrows:

Gorbad Ironclaw
07-11-2006, 17:15
Because they can carry a shield as normal. Your confusing things. A model with a spear can carry a shield as normal too, but wouldn't benefit from the special rule related to shield and hand weapons combined.

Remember, it's a special rule for a specific situation, thats it.

Mephistofeles
07-11-2006, 17:50
Getting +1 save is not "normal" for a shield, it's a Special Rule.

A neutral shade of black.
07-11-2006, 17:57
I think Mordu22 is going on about the regular shield AS bonus.

A shield confers a +1 bonus to your save, all the time, just as heavy armour gives you a 5+ save, etc. A nonmagical shield and a nonmagical hand weapon (and only a combination of those two) will grant you and additional +1AS if attacked in your front facing only. A nonmagical shield with any nonmagical weapon other than a hand weapon or with any magical weapon or a magical shield with any weapon of any kind will only give you +1AS for carrying a shield.

Gorbad Ironclaw
07-11-2006, 18:22
Almost correct. A magic shield will also work for hand weapon and shield rule now it seems.

Asq_Dak
07-11-2006, 22:29
and magical weapons stated as being hand weapons will also work too...

intellectawe
08-11-2006, 02:12
What about weapons that require two hands? Would you still benefit from the basic +1 armor save from a shield, even though two handed entry says you sling the shield on your back?

Highborn
08-11-2006, 02:51
No. Two handed weapons only benefit when out of combat - eg, when being shot at. Are there any weapons that count as hand weapons, besides that Bretonnian one?

enyoss
08-11-2006, 04:32
Quick related question: What if a character on a chariot using a lance and shield in the first round subsequently accepts a challenge and therefore dismounts, now counting as being on foot. As I remember the description for a lance is something along the lines of 'in subsequent rounds the fighter uses the lance butt or draws his sword'. So... would you allow the +1 hand weapon and shield bonus even though the character is using a lance as a hand weapon... or would you say he's drawn his sword :confused:. Just wondering, that's all.

Cheers,

enyoss

A neutral shade of black.
08-11-2006, 07:25
Quick related question: What if a character on a chariot using a lance and shield in the first round subsequently accepts a challenge and therefore dismounts, now counting as being on foot. As I remember the description for a lance is something along the lines of 'in subsequent rounds the fighter uses the lance butt or draws his sword'. So... would you allow the +1 hand weapon and shield bonus even though the character is using a lance as a hand weapon... or would you say he's drawn his sword :confused:. Just wondering, that's all.

No. Fluff != rules. In game terms, he's still fighting with the lance, so he gets no parry bonus.

I also have doubts concerning getting the parry rule with magical weapons, so an exact quote of the parry rule paragraph would be neat (my rulebook is spacially displaced).

Gorbad Ironclaw
08-11-2006, 08:54
Quick related question: What if a character on a chariot using a lance and shield in the first round subsequently accepts a challenge and therefore dismounts,


You don't dismount anymore. So issue won't come up. But regardless, you would be using a lance.

Griefbringer
08-11-2006, 09:23
There is still the probability that a character riding a chariot/monster could end up being dismounted should the thing he is riding on be hacked to pieces during the fight.

Tutore
08-11-2006, 10:03
Do not confuse the +1 bonus the shield gives to the armour save, which it still obviously applies to magic weapons if there´s no statement against it (example: the magic weapon is a two handed one), with the additional +1 bonus, only in HTH, which is given to infantry and infantry only when carrying hand weapon and shield. This does not apply to magic weapon.

Example:

Elf with light armour, shield and sword: armour save 4+ (6+ for the light armour, then +1 bonus for the shield and an additional +1 for being with shield and hand weapon).

Elf prince with light armour, shield and Sword of Might: armour save 5+ (6+ for the light armour, then +1 bonus for the shield, and no other bonus because the weapon is magical).

Is it simple.

GreatRedGobbo
08-11-2006, 13:14
i am not sure it is so simple because the no magical weapon rule was stated in 6th edition but it was definitely not stated in 7th. Honestly I am not an advocate of all dwarf runic weapons get the +1 A or AS depending on the situation, but they must be a reason they removed this clarification.

also the idea of an elf using the sword of might and an enchanted shield getting the combo doesn't sound right to me BUT i still say that it had to have been removed for a reason

metro_gnome
08-11-2006, 13:37
page 121: "Magic weapons always ignore any special rules that apply to an ordinary weapon of the same type unless otherwise specifiedin the description of the weapon"
emphasis mine...

GreatRedGobbo
08-11-2006, 16:13
thanks! I didn't notice that. My "B" I guess they just moved the explanation to another section.

Edit- so the only question is whether magic shields can be used with a regular hand weapon for the +1 AS.

Implex
08-11-2006, 17:10
Confused....

What is this rule? So, My VC skellies with light armour and shield/hand weapon have a save of +4 not +5?

druchii
08-11-2006, 17:25
Confused....

What is this rule? So, My VC skellies with light armour and shield/hand weapon have a save of +4 not +5?

Kinda.

In close combat, while engaged to the front, they have 4+ saves.

At all other times they have 5+.

d

Tutore
09-11-2006, 05:51
thanks! I didn't notice that. My "B" I guess they just moved the explanation to another section.

Edit- so the only question is whether magic shields can be used with a regular hand weapon for the +1 AS.

Ok the last one is a question indeed. I never come to such a situation, because using high elves I have to give great weapon to acquire some streght to a hero, or to give him a lance if he´s mounted and then an enchanted shield. Or, a magical weapon and an enchanted shield.

Gorbad Ironclaw
09-11-2006, 07:46
There is nothing prohibiting a magic shield from getting the hand weapon and shield bonus that I have been able to find at all. So it looks as if you can use them for that.

Morgrin
09-11-2006, 08:41
Magical weapons lose their "natural" abilities, but the shield + hand weapon combo has no such rule.

Flame
09-11-2006, 09:01
What do you mean?

As noted already, you Do not gain the Hand Weapon/Shield extra +1 save in combat if you are using a magic weapon.

Kotobuki
09-11-2006, 14:30
Right. Unless your magic weapon specifically states that it is used as a 'hand weapon'. One example of this is the Bretonnian item Sword of the Quest.

Morgrin is pointing out that there is no such stipulation on a shield being mundane in order to get the HW/Shield bonus save. The rule for HW/Shield simply says you must have a shield (there is no specified type). The rules for magical shields do not say they lose any of thier shieldly status by being magical.

Therefor, a Brettonian Lord with his Heavy armor (5+), Enchanted Shield (+2), Sword of the Quest, and Virtue of Empathy (to allow him to fight on foot), has a 3+ armor save against shooting, and a 2+ when fighting with the Sword of the Quest as a Hand Weapon, or a 5+ save when fighting with the Sword of the Quest as a Great Weapon.

flain
10-11-2006, 20:14
The rule from 6th edition whihc prohibited the +1 save from hand weapon shiled combo with a magical shield and/or magic weapon is gone. So you would get the hand weapon/shield save now with a magical hand weapon and/or magical shield. If GW wanted the hand weapon/shiled rule to be prohibited they would have left the text where it was and not taken the effort to remove it.


Furthermore, the definitions of hand weapons in 7th edition: "The term "hand weapon" is used to describe any weapon held in one hand and not otherwise covered by the rules (page 56)"

magic weapons: "Magic weapons always ignore any special rules that apply to an ordinary weapon of the same type unless otherwise specified in the description" (page 121)

Note that magic weapons loose their special rules. However, the hand/weapon shield combo is not a special rule, ie it is not listed on pages 54 and 55 under the Special Weapon Rules. So as long as the magic weapon is used in 1 hand and not otherwise specified, it counts as a hand weapon and thus benefits from the hand weapon/shield combo.

Festus
10-11-2006, 20:24
Hi

Note that magic weapons loose their special rules. However, the hand/weapon shield combo is not a special rule, ie it is not listed on pages 54 and 55 under the Special Weapon Rules. So as long as the magic weapon is used in 1 hand and not otherwise specified, it counts as a hand weapon and thus benefits from the hand weapon/shield combo.
Nope, not quite... :eyebrows:

... as has previously been stated, the Magical Weapon has to be *counted as a Handweapon* to benefit from the added save, as only Handweapons get this bonus. A Magical Weapon is not a Handweapon, but a Magic Weapon, a different beast entirely. It has no other rules than the ones given in its description. Not even the Handweapon rule if it is not listed.

If the Magic Weapon counts as a Handweapon, though (or vice versa - if a Handweapon counts as being magical but retains its properties - example: Wight Blades) it will benefit from the enhanced save.

Festus

DeathlessDraich
10-11-2006, 20:44
flain,
The problem is what the rules really mean by "ignore any special rules that apply to an ordinary weapon".

If "special rules" is meant to be "Special Weapon rules", then you are right. Note however that the word 'Weapon' is absent which leaves your contention in some doubt.
The Hand Weapon and Shield rules on pg 56 is a 'Special rule applicable to Hand Weapons' and it could just as easily be interpreted that it is this section which is being referred to by the 1st statement above. This is the interpretation of the others and at best is still an interpretation.

Arnizipal
10-11-2006, 22:03
So what about magical shields then?
Does the Enchanted Shield give you a +3 save in close combat now in combination with a hand weapon? :confused:

Festus
10-11-2006, 22:06
Hi

So what about magical shields then?
Does the Enchanted Shield give you a +3 save in close combat now in combination with a hand weapon? :confused:
It looks like it :)

But you may not combine the ES with other magic Armour anymore.

Griefbringer
11-11-2006, 06:44
Furthermore, the definitions of hand weapons in 7th edition: "The term "hand weapon" is used to describe any weapon held in one hand and not otherwise covered by the rules (page 56)"


However, it could also be claimed that almost all magical weapons are "otherwise covered by the rules" since they have their own specific rules, as given in their own description.

Gorbad Ironclaw
11-11-2006, 07:26
It's quite clear that magic weapon are not hand weapons unless they specifically says it. So you can't use the hw/shield rule with almost all of them.

Mephistofeles
11-11-2006, 08:29
Wouldn't enchanted shield+hand weapon give 4+ save, not 3+ ? Or am I missing something?

Squire Jager
11-11-2006, 08:39
That bonus only works when using mundane items unless specificaly stated in the description.

Flame
11-11-2006, 08:58
Have you even read the rest of the thread?

Magic shields, in 7th, can gain the bonus +1 in combat.

WLBjork
11-11-2006, 10:13
Mephostoles, the save bonus is +3 (+2 for Enchanted Shield, +1 in CC when combined with Hand Weapon).

Watch the position of the + ;)