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View Full Version : going over on an army's point total.



Rune of Death
07-11-2006, 16:48
just wanted to know someother points of view on going over point total's, ie. 2001pts in a 2000pt battle. i never have, but i don't have a problem with someone else going over. what are your thoughts?
thankyou.

woytek
07-11-2006, 16:51
If it's friendly, then it's no problem. Although we tend to take the rules serious and part of the game and planning, so we always stay under and if not: back to the drawing board :P

Revlid
07-11-2006, 16:58
4 points over the points limit is the limit for me. Anything else is pushing it, especially if they have an easily dropped thing that takes them over the limit.

T10
07-11-2006, 16:58
Stick to the points limit. If it's not "enough", negotiate a higher points limit like 2500, 2100 or even 2001.

-T10

DeathlessDraich
07-11-2006, 17:06
No problems at all if it is a friendly but I think it is a good habit to be strict and exact in getting the correct points total.

norsemantyr
07-11-2006, 17:11
im in the its ok , a few points here or there doesnt tend to sway the game, and just remember we do it for the fun of it not just to win.

Gorbad Ironclaw
07-11-2006, 17:13
4 points over the points limit is the limit for me. Anything else is pushing it, especially if they have an easily dropped thing that takes them over the limit.

If you agreed to play 2k, why is a 2004 points army accetable and a 2005 points army not? All your doing is playing a 2004 points game then.

I don't see why that should be nessecary. All your doing is moving the boundery for how big a list is. I'm not going to let my opponent complete a charge if he is an inch short, and I'm not going to let him take more points than agreed just because he felt like it either.

Yes, he might have to drop something, but so did I. I don't see why this should be flexible.

notsoevil
07-11-2006, 17:31
Why go over? Drop something to refine that list. Playing over means your deluding yourself into thinking that list is working when obviously it is not.

gukal
07-11-2006, 17:36
Strictly enforced. Going over by 1 point just means that you should have dropped a model or a unit upgrade. It gets a little harder when you have mainly high priced models (like Elves or Ogres), but even then you can probably drop a musician somewhere.

Overall, its much better to be 7-8 points under than 1 point over. Some people get up in arms about it, but it really is just a show of respect for the game parameters.

I was once asked at a tournament if I would accept a Wood Elf army that was 6 points over. I declined and he dropped a dryad. Easy. So easy in fact, that I would be embarrassed to ask the question.

- Gukal

Selsaral
07-11-2006, 18:24
In the past we let the guy with the most inflexible army hit their target (high elves with 2009 or something), and the guy with the most flexible would make last second additions to try to match (and 4 skaven slaves).

Lately we've been more strict and forced people into 2000 or under. I sort of like this...it allows the flexible army to have a slight advantage and there's no last-second additions to try to meet someone's point value.

Lord Zarkov
07-11-2006, 20:22
I've always been fine with people upto 2 or three point over if they can't drop anything without going alot further below the points limit

e.g. if someone is 3pts over and there is a 5pt thing that they could drop then they should drop it; if their lowest is say 10pts then that would be allright by my reasoning

Dtrik
07-11-2006, 20:39
Im surprised there are some people who would actually strictly enforce this in friendly games. Personally I always allow it as long as its not giving the other player a reasonable advantage. Its a game and should be treated as such. Of course before the game if the other person is over Ill look at their list and try to briefly negotiate dropping something to get down to the appropriate points level.

gukal
07-11-2006, 20:56
Im surprised there are some people who would actually strictly enforce this in friendly games. Personally I always allow it as long as its not giving the other player a reasonable advantage. Its a game and should be treated as such.

I don't know why you're surprised. :angel: The exact same issues are raised every time the question is posed.

At least a few people usually mirror your comment that they are willing to allow a few extra points so long as they don't result in a real advanatage. This begs the question: If the few extra points don't equate to a real advantage, why is the army designer putting me into this position? :eyebrows:

Produce a compliant army; bring it to the match; play the match.

- Gukal

Rikkjourd
07-11-2006, 21:17
I can understand both sides of the argument. However, it is still strictly a points limit to each game: if you say "Im fine with 2-3pts over" then you are really having 2003 as a pts limit. Or maybe "around here nobody complains if you're a few points over" than it is the same as saying "the points limit is 2010" or someting similar. I always expect my opponent to use the agreed points limit.

(the guy I face most often cheats every game however, so I'm used to playing like 105-110% of my own list... he blames making mistakes but I have NEVER seen him make a mistake that puts him below the limit... strange...)

Asq_Dak
07-11-2006, 22:40
I always compose strictly under lists. I expect my opponent to do the same as it is a points limit. However, if they ASKED if it was ok before the game then I would more than likely say yes and play the game. Time is a valuable asset and I don't want to waste it while a list is re-written ¬¬

intellectawe
08-11-2006, 02:08
I never let my opponent go over ANY points. A player can ALWAYS drop a 1/2 point light armor or a 2/3 point shield from his list somewhere. Always. Unless hes an Ogre Player :)

Highborn
08-11-2006, 03:21
I play strictly to the points limit, usually going under. However, as far as my opponents go, I couldn't care less if he brings 2100 points to the table, as long as he's a good sport and fun to play.

Quin 242
08-11-2006, 03:40
Strictly enforced. Going over by 1 point just means that you should have dropped a model or a unit upgrade. It gets a little harder when you have mainly high priced models (like Elves or Ogres), but even then you can probably drop a musician somewhere.

Overall, its much better to be 7-8 points under than 1 point over. Some people get up in arms about it, but it really is just a show of respect for the game parameters.

I was once asked at a tournament if I would accept a Wood Elf army that was 6 points over. I declined and he dropped a dryad. Easy. So easy in fact, that I would be embarrassed to ask the question.

- Gukal

Absolutely behind this post...
Stay in the limit or lose a body. Simple.

Ghazhkull Thraka
08-11-2006, 04:51
im in the its ok , a few points here or there doesnt tend to sway the game, and just remember we do it for the fun of it not just to win.

If it's 'just for fun', then why are the few extra points necessary when you made an agreement with your friend to play at a certain points limit? Since it's something as trivial as a game, why shouldn't your opponent be able to take you at your word that you will not exceed the agreed points limit? If you can't be taken at your word in a game, why should you be taken at your word when it really matters?

mattjgilbert
08-11-2006, 07:49
Agree with Quin and GT above.

No matter what the game system, we (our club) stick to the limit. I don't think I have ever considered going over the points limit in 18 years of gaming. You can always drop something to take you under the agreed limit. Otherwise, why bother to have one at all?

squiggoth
08-11-2006, 11:12
You can always drop something to take you under the agreed limit. Otherwise, why bother to have one at all?

My opinion exactly - limits are there for a reason.
If anyone tries to play Points Creep on me and claims that "it's only two points, who cares" or something weedy like that, I'll just plonk an extra Giant on the table and claim that it's only one model too much and that he shouldn't make a fuzz about it. :)

Slayhem
08-11-2006, 18:21
To me a 2,000 point game is a 2,000 point game, not a 2,002 point game. It's not like it's difficult to stay below the limit.

Morgrin
08-11-2006, 18:56
Aye, you can always drop a model here or there, maybe a musician or a shield on a hero.

EldarRaven
08-11-2006, 21:06
In a fun game and as long as the other person asks or stats that they are over then I'm Ok with it. WFB are different then 40k in that 1-5 points will not make you win. If not just give your opp the VPs difference before the game or option to go first. I mean 5 points can get shot in one turn I'm sure of it.

mattjgilbert
08-11-2006, 21:14
A limit is a limit not a guideline. However, it seems some people are happy to let things slide which is cool for them.

GranFarfar
08-11-2006, 21:17
Some ask why it is so important to take those extra point in a friendly game, well the question can be turned around. Or maby that is what you already did, I did not read that carefully.

We usually have a 9 point limit to how much we are allowed to step over the limit. Usually this is about unit apperance, a full square instead of one missing at the corner. But anyhow, it dosn't really matter, as long as everyone has agreed on how to play, you can't really say which way is wrong or right.

Ghazhkull Thraka
09-11-2006, 04:54
In a fun game and as long as the other person asks or stats that they are over then I'm Ok with it.
At which point you've just changed the points limit for the game.


Some ask why it is so important to take those We usually have a 9 point limit to how much we are allowed to step over the limit.
Which means your agreed points limit is actually X+9 points instead of X points. For example, if you and your opponent agree to a 2,000 point game, you both know you've actually agreed to a 2,009 point game.

Toddums
09-11-2006, 05:06
Stay under the limit. Without rules there is chaos.....

Axel
09-11-2006, 06:54
I always stay under the limit and expect my opponents to do so, too. On the other hand, I never take a look at my opponents army list (unless he wants me to). I trust him, and if somebody wins by cheating then I fail to see where the fun for him is.

GranFarfar
09-11-2006, 18:17
At which point you've just changed the points limit for the game.


Which means your agreed points limit is actually X+9 points instead of X points. For example, if you and your opponent agree to a 2,000 point game, you both know you've actually agreed to a 2,009 point game.

In a way yes, but not totally. We all try to make 2k lists, but if someone happens to stumble over some point's we don't mind. It is not like we end up with a nice round 2k list and think "Hmm, now what to do with those extra 9 points."

Ghazhkull Thraka
10-11-2006, 05:07
Yes, that is exactly what you have done. By allowing your opponent to go over, then that becomes the agreed points limit. It doesn't matter whether or not you try and spend the extra 9 points or not.

Crazy Harborc
10-11-2006, 19:54
Amongst us longtime opponents......we dropped a grunt/core trooper to get the points down below the total. It seems to be the same at the local GW store. That IS the way it is at events.

spikedog
11-11-2006, 10:12
Well going a few points over doesn't bother me. I would much rather play a good sport who was a few point over than an ass who was spot on the limit.

There are more important things to the game for me than limits.

I did hear of a rule that seemed interesting though:

"A player may not go over the points limit by more than half the cost of his cheapest troop.

That way dropping a troop would put you under the limit by the same as going over. However against an all Ogre army this kind of takes the "p" a little.

ZomboCom
11-11-2006, 16:00
If warhammer was a perfectly ballanced game then it would matter a lot if one player went over the limit by a few points. However, since it isn't I don't really mind one way or the other if my opponent is a few points over, since even if both armies are exactly 2000 points they won't be perfectly balanced with each other anyway.

For example, a 3000 point high elf elite infantry army will get demolished every time by a 2000 point RAF and MSU bretonnian army.

In a tournament I guess it's important but for friendly play I don't really care.

Ghazhkull Thraka
11-11-2006, 22:02
It's not a matter of game balance. It's a matter of your opponent being able to keep his word.

Nkari
11-11-2006, 22:23
if 2000 is the limit, then 2000 is the limit, if you cant get below or right at 2000, drop a model, the shield on a character etc.. its easy to get below or at 2000 pts..

505
12-11-2006, 02:27
I think if you had fun and its close who cares. as long as both parties had fun.
heck Id give someone 10 points if they really really wanted it...of course I always carry lists to the point and so am always ready and don't have to take time to make one
now in tourneys thats different 2k means 2k

intellectawe
12-11-2006, 03:06
Well going a few points over doesn't bother me. I would much rather play a good sport who was a few point over than an ass who was spot on the limit.

There are more important things to the game for me than limits.

I did hear of a rule that seemed interesting though:

"A player may not go over the points limit by more than half the cost of his cheapest troop.

That way dropping a troop would put you under the limit by the same as going over. However against an all Ogre army this kind of takes the "p" a little.

But the limit is a RULE of the game. And rules must be followed so the game can be as fair as possible.

So breaking the rule is ok and friendly, but enforcing the rule makes a person an auto ass?

I would say the ass is the player trying to cheat.

Binabik15
15-11-2006, 16:12
Funny how younger gamer are often worried when their first list isnīt exactly 1000/2000/whatever points but only 199X and with time it becomes "Meh, I donīt want to think about what I could remove from my 2007 points list, itīs peanuts after all.".

IMHO you shouldnīt even get to a point where you must think about removing something. Your 35 points magic weapon IS ultra important to you, but the 5+ static combat resolution of all your units cannot be lost? And youīre only a few points over? Well, that has to change if you want to play me.

Come on, Iīd also like to get this one extra model or that shiny piece of magic something, but you canīt have everything. If that means only two full ranks instead of three we all must learn to live with it.

OR you could agree to play 1050 points games, or 2150 or 3333 and add not only that one trooper that brought you over before but also another bait unit or something (or a DOW giant perhaps? You know you want one!;) )

But your opponent will of course also add more units (or a DOW giant! Two giants battling each other! Gonna catch īem all, GW marketing department...:angel: )...

PS: spellcheck didnīt work, blame that!

Crazy Harborc
16-11-2006, 02:18
Whatever the opponents agree to before the battle is what they can do. Communication is the key. I'm ready to discuss my roster AND I expect the same open discussion from opponents. At events/campaigns/etc there is a need for strict rules for rosters/units/etc.

Bortus
16-11-2006, 02:45
If you go over the points and you are fine in asking your opponent to allow it then you are a very, very bad man!!! (or woman)!!!...and you obviously need more fiber in your diet!:mad:

boardbox
16-11-2006, 04:07
I don't mind a point or two over. I figure in the scale of 750 or more points how much of difference is the single point gonna make. Fine you get an extra trooper, one trooper probably won't affect the game in a meaningful way. So you get an item that you'd otherwise have to drop a trooper for. The only real difference is one more wound.

I do however start getting picky around 3 or 4 points because at that point i think something could alter the game.

Ghazhkull Thraka
16-11-2006, 05:50
I don't mind a point or two over. I figure in the scale of 750 or more points how much of difference is the single point gonna make.

That's not the point. The point is that you gave your word that you would play to X points. By going over the agreed points limit you are breaking your word. You are essentially lying to your opponent. Is a few extra points worth lying to your friend?

Pravus
16-11-2006, 10:32
Its worth mentioning that "just a couple of points over" doesn't tell the whole story. Either its the remainder of something worth more than the amount over the limit or its a small thing that has a big effect - for instance take a beastherd with 10 gor and 10 ungors. Adding another ungor has a minimal points effect but it makes the unit more resilient to panic tests from shooting which can have a big game influence. What if that ungor were the cause of the overflow?

Personally I think staying within the points limit is part of the challenge of the game. It might necessitate difficult choices but that's kind of the point (no pun intended!)

Odieman
16-11-2006, 10:45
I am quite strict when it comes to this, and will not aprove any army that has even 1 point over the limit. That is cheating no matter how small. So if my opponent has over the points limit, i tell him to drop something, if he ant figure out anything. I ask him if he want to have a 2050 or 2100 match instead.

Avian
16-11-2006, 11:52
...which can have a big game influence.

I will happily field an army that is anywhere up to 20 pts below the limit with not a single worry that I am handicapping myself. I can field a 2495 pt list without even considering that I could have bumped a unit of 30 Gobbos up to 31, which could have some effect.

Thus, because I am not worried about going a few points below the limit, I am also not worried about my opponent going a few points over the limit as long as he asks me if it's okay first and assuming it's not a competitive game. Heck, experience with uneven campaign games has shown me that you can field an army 10% bigger than the other and hardly notice it. A few points above or below the limit doesn't worry me.

luckyguy
16-11-2006, 12:50
I do not think you should go over the point limit though I would not object in a friendly game. Once at a tournament I overheard someone trying to check in with a list that was one point over. The organizer said "This isn't a 2,001 point tournament. You need to drop something from your list" I was suprised someone had the nerve to even try to submit a list that was over at an official event. I thought it was funny.

Tutore
16-11-2006, 13:21
We don't go over it, I always try to have a "perfect" list (exactly 1000 or 2000 points, for example).

Crazy Harborc
17-11-2006, 01:51
I always get a feeling of "oh dear, I must have made a mistake" when a roster is right on the money. A point or five under is more the norm for me. I check, just in case.......usually, I don't find a mistake.

boardbox
17-11-2006, 04:32
In regards to my earlier comment. I've never played a competitive game or tournament game and in those scenarios I'd feel the same way, the rules are written and exceptions overcomplicate something that really doesn't need the extra complexity. However, in a friendly game in the local garage or shop who cares about a few points? It's a game, it's meant to be fun, not to be argued over or debated at excessive length with your fellow gamer.

Ghazhkull Thraka
17-11-2006, 05:32
However, in a friendly game in the local garage or shop who cares about a few points? It's a game, it's meant to be fun, not to be argued over or debated at excessive length with your fellow gamer.

Obviously your opponent cares if he can't keep his word and played at the agreed points limit.

Crube
17-11-2006, 12:23
I always run my lists exactly to the points limit, or just under, and I expect my opponent to do the same...

In the past, we have played that you are allowed to go over, but for every 1 point over the limit, you give 100 VP to your opponent before the game even starts...