PDA

View Full Version : Ideas to make Necrons more fun (not better, funner)



ReveredChaplainDrake
08-11-2006, 15:22
Looking over the Dark Crusade expansion to DoW, I've been thinking about how good (or at least competent) the Necrons are there, but how poor they are in the actual game. For example, use Pariahs in DoW and you hose anybody. Use anything but Immortals, Warriors and Destroyers only in 40k and you're going to lose against anybody who knows what they're doing. Not very dynamic, and a pity that the designers went to the trouble to make the Necrons all these new units, only for them to be a whole lot suckier than the current residents of the Necron army.

Here are some thoughts:

"We'll be back!": Army rules tend to be open to a lot of debate. Synapse Creatures (Tyranids), ATSKNF (Marines), Ancient Enemies (Chaos), etcetera. And for such a simple army like Necrons, WBB is often a very confusing rule.

WBB should be just made into the Feel No Pain rule, as GW tends to dumb down army special rules in the new codecies. In turn, the Res Orb should allow the Necrons to take the Feel No Pain rule versus ranged Instant Death or CC weapons that allow no saves. It's easier than waiting a turn to see who gets up, it's more efficient, it makes Necrons harder to rout in CC (as-is, it's pretty easy, even with Ld10), and it eliminates the psychological "Weeble Effect" where you can wipe a whole unit out and then just watch them get back up and form into a new unit.

C'tans: Include the Void Dragon and the Outsider. Other races have multi-dimensional pantheons, so why not Necrons? In general, the C'tans should have some effect over the Necrons they control. The Necs *were* after all, made out of their Living Metal, or something similar. And even in the fluff, Necron Lords (such as the poor soul who screwed up on Medussa V) are shown to be subordinate and even afraid of the C'tans they serve.

A bigger demand for them: more fluff! The universe itself wants to know just what the Void Dragon has been up to, why it has beef with the Eldar, whether it's hiding in Mars or not, and what the reprocussions are to the Imperium. Currently, the Necrons seem like an Eldar problem, and humanity (a.k.a. the last great experiment of the Old Ones / the bearers of the Pariah Gene) really needs to be added to the mix, as humans seem to play a bigger part in the grand scheme of Necrons than they do now. Orks aren't the only stains in the galaxy, after all.

Necron Lord: The Necron Lord is about as hamstrung as the Necron Wargear section is. The Wargear will be covered separately. The Necron Lord himself is pretty good as-is, provided he gets better wargear.

Immortals: Up their cost. Immortals are far too easy a choice as-is. For their current cost, they're a steal. Also, because Necron Lords tend to take Immortal bodyguards, allow the Necron Lord to take a retinue of Immortals.

Flayed Ones: Make into troops. They're the same cost as a Necron Warrior, and Flayed Ones armies (like a Necron version of the Genestealer Cult) allow a more combat-oriented army design, rather than just packing as many Gauss Flayers / Blasters / Cannons as possible into a single army.

Pariahs: Where do I start? These guys are terrible! For as bad as they are, they should *not*, however, be made into Necrons as per the definition of Necrons, namely so they don't get WBB. Fair enough. I always envisioned Pariahs as the Terminators of Necrons, and shooting-wise they are. But in terms of resilience, T5 is great, but a 3+ save for a unit that cost is not. I envision Pariahs having a 2+ save and maybe a 4+ ward save (and costing about 50+ pts / model, which is only fair). And a single attack at I3? The Warscythe has nothing to do with it. You could be swinging around Drach'nyen, but with just one attack that's only one dead Grot per turn. Pariahs need at least 2 attacks. If they don't get WBB, they shouldn't act like clumsy little Warriors in CC. As a conclusion, they should be allowed to warp through the Monolith and via Veil of Darkness. Just not getting back up. Right now, it seems like they get all the cons of being Necrons without any of the pros.

Necron Warriors: If the reccommended changes to WBB and Flayed Ones are amended, Warriors will be just fine. The only thing would be to force them to take Disruptor Fields to make them an even 20 pts / model, and only then so they don't get routinely pasted by Dreads in CC.

Destroyers: Here's where things get interesting. The biggest problem with Destroyers is that players notice that if they only use a single unit of Destroyers, and they all die in one turn, they have no chance to get back up via WBB, statistically cutting their resilience in half. So players have taken to what I call "Hot Wheels Necrons" (taken from one player who made his Necrons metallic blue and silver and painted flame decals on his Destroyer-body-mounted Necrons), taking three maximized units of Destroyers. On top of being beardy as dirt, it eliminates other perfectly viable Fast Attack choices from the equation. Amending WBB should fix that, so as not to force Necron players to take multiple Destroyer units or lose all their destroyers on turn 1. That just encourages people to play cheezy with Necs, though to be fair they don't have a lot of other options to be less cheezy while still competent.

Wraiths: Same as destroyers, more or less. If you don't take multiple units, you may as well take none. Also, clarify their armor. Give them 3+ armor saves, and in addition a 3+ IV save. No more arguing over Psycannons bowling over Wraiths, which seems just soooo wrong. Also, disruptor fields or maybe rending CC weapons (pretty please?) to make them a little less of patterers and more of slashers, though with a great increase in their cost. Power Weapons on Wraiths makes them idiotically destructive to Infantry, but makes them puny versus heavily armored tanks (similar to the Genestealers from the 3rd ed BBB, for those with good long-term memory). Wraiths should be able to tear through anything with their Edward-Scissorhand-esque claws. Also, to add to the fact that Wraiths in long-term combat saves the slashed targets from the frighteningly effective Necron shooting, and because it makes sense with how they pass through solid walls, give them Hit and Run.

Scarabs: Just fine as-is actually. They do on the table what they do in the fluff, and they do it well.

Heavy Destroyers: Same as Destroyers. Make taking single units of 'em viable.

Tomb Spyders: Amend the Scarab / Tomb Spyder unit so that the Scarabs aren't tied down by the spider and so the Majority Toughness rule won't crutch the Spider itself. To think that Scarabs stay back to keep up with their Tomb Spyder is stupid. It's like a Biovore. Why hamstring the ammo when it doesn't count as scoring anyway?

Monolith: Oh boy, does this thing need changing! First thing's first, scrap the Energy Matrix idea. Because the Mono's matrix cannot be harmed, it makes destroying weapons pointless. Make the Particle Whip a destroyable weapon. Also, make it so that a -6 modifier on the WD results on each Mono will destroy the Gauss Flux Arcs. Second, change the deepstrike so that the Mono itself moves. As it is, the Mono can deepstrike in and shove other stuff around. It should be more like a drop pod, in that it scatters just as short as it needs to scatter to not die. That's enough. Third, take away the double WBB for units jumping through a Mono. Fourth, make destroying a Mono worth something. In the fluff, DoW, and just about any successful Necron repulsion, what turns the tide is when the Mono goes down, and what screws the defenders over is when they stupidly go whacking on the little Necrons. The troops creatively taking fast assault troops, plowing through the Warriors, and then the Mono itself Phases Out is just plain backwards. In Fantasy, losing a big leader of a zombie horde can critically cripple the zombies. The Mono needs a similar principle, like disabling WBB to nearby Necron units for a turn or something.

Curufew
08-11-2006, 15:31
I think that your're making them alot better.

Weapon-X
08-11-2006, 15:39
I think destroyers and heavy destroyers should be made one choice with upgrade. They should also be placed in heavy support so that the other fast attack choices get some use and it also prevents multiple monolith cheese in larger games.

Acolyte of Bli'l'ab
08-11-2006, 15:41
Personally I just want new units :

C'tan The Outsider : (HQ)

The Outsider has arisin from his Dyson Sphere, a powerful but utterly insane C'tan bent on taking over the galaxy for its own demented means. Outsider had the least amount of followers and as such uses more pure robotic constructs. Those he did have follow him have either turned into distorted insane assassins or given the chance to become his mighty guardians.

Necron Androids : (Troops)

Androids unlike other necrons can be destroyed but are cheap and easy to produce. These purely robotic servants are based on the old immortals. Androids come in squads of 20 and unlike their warrior brethren, they can be totally destroyed. When androids are defeated they have a built in self-destruct mechanism that destroys the enemy around it making it a powerful troop.

Necron Cyborgs : (Troops)

Cyborgs are troops which are humans which have been augmented with necron implants to turn them into mindless drones to serve the necrons. They are usually seen as lessers and as such used purely as scouts.

Necron Asassins : (Elites)

Assassins are made of living liquid metal which can reform into any shape similar to the C'tan. These asassins are infiltrators and can turn their arms into any kind of weapon to cut through the enemy. They are a close combat infiltration troop.

Necron Tomb Scorpions : (Heavy Support)

These awesome robotic scorpions rip through the enemy lines with their powerful claws, while their tails fire a heavy particle projector as a long range. They are slow but very powerful and take a beating.

(and take in mind I dont "play" the game, I just like the fluff and painting mass armies of evil robots ;))

ReveredChaplainDrake
08-11-2006, 15:42
The point is to make formerly unviable things usable again (like Pariahs and Wraiths; I like the models, but I like not getting my butt kicked better), making it so that you don't need to overuse any single unit (Destroyers and Immortals are far too common, where Wraiths and Flayed Ones are often left in the dust), and simplification. For what was supposed to be a very simplistic army, GW did a good job of overcomplicating the entire concept of WBB, opening up a lot of doors to rules lawyers to bend stuff around, and too much room was made for Necron opponents to capitalize. There are too many players I know who are undefeated against Necrons.

A neutral shade of black.
08-11-2006, 16:16
WBB should be just made into the Feel No Pain rule (...) and it eliminates the psychological "Weeble Effect" where you can wipe a whole unit out and then just watch them get back up and form into a new unit.

The Weeble effect is a lot of what makes facing Necron fun. In fact, since facing Necron isn't remotely fun, it's probably the only thing that makes for an interesting game. Simpler =! better (in any way), as usual.


C'tans: Include the Void Dragon and the Outsider.

The Void Dragon is dormant under Mars' surface and the Outsider is in another galaxy. I'd like to know how they can come fight on the field of battle in the 40k galaxy. That's pushing it, even for FTL technology.


(...) humanity (a.k.a. the last great experiment of the Old Ones / the bearers of the Pariah Gene) really needs to be added to the mix, as humans seem to play a bigger part in the grand scheme of Necrons than they do now.

The conflict opposing the Necrontyr to the Eldar is millenia old. That's a timescale compared to which even the Imperium pales in insignificance. Humanity is irrelevant to the Necron problem. They've just been in the way to die a few times, is all.

Agree with the changes except the quoted ones (incidentally - Necron lord should get more diverse wargear, not better one).


Pariahs: Where do I start? These guys are terrible! (...) As a conclusion, they should be allowed to warp through the Monolith and via Veil of Darkness. Just not getting back up. Right now, it seems like they get all the cons of being Necrons without any of the pros.

I see no reason for the 2+ save, but the 4+ invulnerable could make sense.

Necron Warriors: If the reccommended changes to WBB and Flayed Ones are amended, Warriors will be just fine. The only thing would be to force them to take Disruptor Fields to make them an even 20 pts / model, and only then so they don't get routinely pasted by Dreads in CC.


Destroyers: Here's where things get interesting. (...)

I disagree with the whole of that. However, I quite like Weapon-X's idea that destroyers/heavy destroyers should be a single unit choice with upgrade la pathfinders. Oh, and Heavy Support, of course.


Wraiths: (...) Give them 3+ armor saves, and in addition a 3+ IV save. No more arguing over Psycannons bowling over Wraiths, which seems just soooo wrong.

It doesn't seem wrong to me.


or maybe rending CC weapons (pretty please?)

Rending is not the answer to everything. It should be phased out of the game.


and because it makes sense with how they pass through solid walls, give them Hit and Run.

Not a bad idea.


Monolith: (...) Also, make it so that a -6 modifier on the WD results on each Mono will destroy the Gauss Flux Arcs.

Eh?


The Mono needs a similar principle, like disabling WBB to nearby Necron units for a turn or something.

Agreed on the principle, but impossible to implement in-game. It needs something like the Ethereal's morale rule, except Necron are of course fearless. In other words, an effect that buffs everyone when on the table and does horrible things to them when the Monolith dies. The simplest solution would be to say that the death of the Monolith means you can no longer WBB at all, but that doesn't make much sense from a logical point of view (works fine from a game balance one, though).

Durath
08-11-2006, 16:29
Necrons are my secondary army, but I have played with them (and against them) a fair bit. So, here are my thoughts:


Looking over the Dark Crusade expansion to DoW, I've been thinking about how good (or at least competent) the Necrons are there, but how poor they are in the actual game.

Yes, my sentiments exactly.


For example, use Pariahs in DoW and you hose anybody. Use anything but Immortals, Warriors and Destroyers only in 40k and you're going to lose against anybody who knows what they're doing. Not very dynamic, and a pity that the designers went to the trouble to make the Necrons all these new units, only for them to be a whole lot suckier than the current residents of the Necron army.

You fogot to also mention how devastating Flayed Ones are in DoW, and how mediocre they are in TT. It seems like the Necron units in DoW that kick the most ass are predominantly the worst in TT and vice-versa.

Still, DoW is a derivative work, based on 40k, but not completely representative of the Table Top game. Drawing comparisons between the two only applies to one's own opinions and continuity between the respective games, and holds no real basis for change to either platform's rules.

Also, in addition to Warriors, Immortals and Destroyers, you can win TT games by using Monoliths too (despite what many people think). You can even win by using Heavy Destroyers.


Here are some thoughts:

"We'll be back!": Army rules tend to be open to a lot of debate. Synapse Creatures (Tyranids), ATSKNF (Marines), Ancient Enemies (Chaos), etcetera. And for such a simple army like Necrons, WBB is often a very confusing rule.

WBB should be just made into the Feel No Pain rule, as GW tends to dumb down army special rules in the new codecies. In turn, the Res Orb should allow the Necrons to take the Feel No Pain rule versus ranged Instant Death or CC weapons that allow no saves. It's easier than waiting a turn to see who gets up, it's more efficient, it makes Necrons harder to rout in CC (as-is, it's pretty easy, even with Ld10), and it eliminates the psychological "Weeble Effect" where you can wipe a whole unit out and then just watch them get back up and form into a new unit.

I don't know if I agree with this. Part of the flavor of the Necrons revolves around the WBB rule. Making it a simple 4+ save during the shooting phase would dampen their uniqueness. Yes, its a little cumbersome, but it makes things interesting.


C'tans: Include the Void Dragon and the Outsider.... Other races have multi-dimensional pantheons, so why not Necrons? In general, the C'tans should have some effect over the Necrons they control....

Im willing to bet something like this happens in the 4th ed. Codex for Necrons. If not, oh well, we really don't need another Chaos Codex. Necrons have decent variety now, this variety just needs to be more effective on the table.


A bigger demand for them: more fluff!...

Mmm... future updated Codex maybe?(whenever that is) Just hold yer horses on this one.


Necron Lord: The Necron Lord is about as hamstrung as the Necron Wargear section is. The Wargear will be covered separately. The Necron Lord himself is pretty good as-is, provided he gets better wargear.

Well, I think the problem with the Lord is how you will almost ALWAYS include a Res Orb on him (well, if you expect to win consistently). They might as well had made him come with one then limit his Wargear to 60 points. He should get a 140 point wargear cap.

I think he could use a better WS/BS too. It stupid that he is no more skilled in hand-to-hand and shooting than a warrior.


Immortals: Up their cost. Immortals are far too easy a choice as-is. For their current cost, they're a steal. Also, because Necron Lords tend to take Immortal bodyguards, allow the Necron Lord to take a retinue of Immortals.

They aren't thateffective. If you don't bring two squads, its very easy to lose them all before they shoot. This is very points intensive. Their points costs are fine as is.


Flayed Ones: Make into troops. They're the same cost as a Necron Warrior, and Flayed Ones armies (like a Necron version of the Genestealer Cult) allow a more combat-oriented army design, rather than just packing as many Gauss Flayers / Blasters / Cannons as possible into a single army.

Being Elites is fine. Necrons were not intended to be a CC army. Changing this, again, would spoil the army's flavor. The thought of facing down 6 units of Flayed Ones is kinda silly too.


Pariahs: Where do I start? These guys are terrible! For as bad as they are, they should *not*, however, be made into Necrons as per the definition of Necrons, namely so they don't get WBB. Fair enough. I always envisioned Pariahs as the Terminators of Necrons, and shooting-wise they are. But in terms of resilience, T5 is great, but a 3+ save for a unit that cost is not. I envision Pariahs having a 2+ save and maybe a 4+ ward save (and costing about 50+ pts / model, which is only fair). And a single attack at I3? The Warscythe has nothing to do with it. You could be swinging around Drach'nyen, but with just one attack that's only one dead Grot per turn. Pariahs need at least 2 attacks. If they don't get WBB, they shouldn't act like clumsy little Warriors in CC. As a conclusion, they should be allowed to warp through the Monolith and via Veil of Darkness. Just not getting back up. Right now, it seems like they get all the cons of being Necrons without any of the pros.

/signed. I completely agree. I'm hoping the new Codex fixes them, as I won't bring them in their current state.


Necron Warriors: If the reccommended changes to WBB and Flayed Ones are amended, Warriors will be just fine. The only thing would be to force them to take Disruptor Fields to make them an even 20 pts / model, and only then so they don't get routinely pasted by Dreads in CC.

Well, I disagree with your WBB and Flayed Ones ideas, and I very much disagree with making them 20 points a model. Warriors are fine as is. If anything they should have the Disruption Field as standard equipment w/o a points increase (as you point out, they have no defense against a Dreadnought charging them, save a Lord or Pariahs coming to their aid).


Destroyers: Here's where things get interesting. The biggest problem with Destroyers is that players notice that if they only use a single unit of Destroyers, and they all die in one turn, they have no chance to get back up via WBB, statistically cutting their resilience in half. So players have taken to what I call "Hot Wheels Necrons" (taken from one player who made his Necrons metallic blue and silver and painted flame decals on his Destroyer-body-mounted Necrons), taking three maximized units of Destroyers. On top of being beardy as dirt, it eliminates other perfectly viable Fast Attack choices from the equation. Amending WBB should fix that, so as not to force Necron players to take multiple Destroyer units or lose all their destroyers on turn 1. That just encourages people to play cheezy with Necs, though to be fair they don't have a lot of other options to be less cheezy while still competent.

Several players in my area did the 3x3 Destroyer trick for awhile. Honestly... for their points cost, its not that beardy. I challenged one of them on the tactic, and played him with my Chaos Tourney army (slaaneshi/undivided mix). I stomped him flat.

Destroyers only have one wound for 50(!!!) points. Thats 9 wounds for 405 points. They are going to have a hard time killing their points worth unless they enemy is vehicle heavy. I would much rather have that many points in Warriors.

Not to say they don't have a use. Bringing 3-5 Destroyers offers some tactical flexiblity. Beyond that number, you are starting to waste points. So I say bring on the 9 Destroyers! Its their loss.


Wraiths: Same as destroyers, more or less...

Err... not really...

Two ways to make them useful:
1. They need a points reduction, a higher unit capacity (max 3?!, how bout max 6?), and one less attack.

OR

2. Their claws need to be power weapons. Since all they do is CC, they should be able to force Invulnerable saves. This would follow the fluff too.


Heavy Destroyers: Same as Destroyers. Make taking single units of 'em viable.

Huh? They work best in single count units! They are pinpoint heavy armor killers. If you take two units of them, should the 1st unit fail to kill, the 2nd can finish the job (or redirect fire if the first unit kills). There is nothing like taking 3 HDs in 2 separate units. Split fire FTW!


Tomb Spyders: Amend the Scarab / Tomb Spyder unit so that the Scarabs aren't tied down by the spider...

How about making the Tomb Spyder a Jetbike like the Scarabs it builds? It floats around like a Destroyer, why can't it move like one? Also, I think they should be Elite Units, not Heavy Support. They are the Necron's Krootox.


Monolith:
The Mono is near perfect. The only thing that needs to be changed is to make the Particle Whip independent of the Teleport ability.

Anyhow, as you can see, we agree and disagree on a variety of points. All this talk is meaningless baring a new Codex in the scheme of things. Till then its Warrior spam FTW.

Seth the Dark
08-11-2006, 16:33
If you wipe out a squad, they can't stand back up. I believe it says so in the Necron FAQ.

Darkseer
08-11-2006, 16:34
Give them all fleet of foot. I think it'd be hilarious! :D

Mojaco
08-11-2006, 18:28
What's the argument against pariahs getting WBB? I think that alone would be a fine fixup. And the extra attack. If they finally make contact it should mean something.

How bout something like this:
Curse of the machine god: all enemy vehicle roll a die at the beginning of the turn. On a 1, they may not move shoot or assault.

Horrible idea, I know, but against imperium it would be fluffy. Somewhat. Or maybe not. I'll show myself out....

Simsandwich
08-11-2006, 18:41
Give them all fleet of foot. I think it'd be hilarious! :D

Im still not sold on this idea, only if they get upgrades like "Laser Eyes" (+1WS), Rending flayed ones at 16 Points, and make the Monolith T6, and have it packed with more guns than an ammunitions factory, with the Close Combat Monolith never being chosen.

lordmetroid
08-11-2006, 18:58
I think you should just choose bad units although characterfull units. For many armies a powergaming necron player is impossible to beat. So just take whatever one likes modelling or background story/atmosphere wise and you will get a more diverse force which will be more challenging and hence totally more fun to play!

TheImmaterium
08-11-2006, 19:01
Necron Lord definately needs a bump in WS and BS...he's an ancient monstrosity, and I'm fairly sure he's walked off the long sleep by now. Their wargear definately needs to be broadened.

Flayed Ones...where does one start with these things? They're good...but not good enough. They can scare a unit enough that they won't fight back well, but they won't break any easier? They should give at least -1 to LD within 6" of them, maybe even 2 (maybe give -2 to anything in btb with them). This would help them signficantly, and would be much fluffier for them. No one's sticking around to get flayed and turned into a jacket.

Warriors are fine as is...maybe give them the Slow and Purposeful rule, as that would kinda work with their fluff and help out their shooting. But that's all I can see. I don't agree on the disruption field bit...I think disruption fields are pretty dumb as is..

Wraiths need a drop in points and the monstrous creature rule, or at least power weapons. At S6, they're fairly monstrous, and they're damn scary. Rending might work as well, but I agree with most people that rending needs to be removed from the game or at least limited (though I imagine that every army will have at least one unit that has rending, and in that case I vote Wraith for the Necron rending unit).

Destroyers and Heavy Destroyers should be one unit with (whole unit) upgrades. They're fine as is, and not as effective as everyone says they are. Their points and single wound, not to mention the evident threat they play, make them prime targets.

Tomb spyders should be elites, and I do NOT agree that should be as fast as jetbikes. That would make them INSANE CC units that speed ahead, pump out extra meat (or non-meat) shields and that's that for other choices.

Pariahs just need more attacks, they're not necrons so they shouldn't get WBB. Give them +1 attack and they should be fine. But people still won't take them, because they don't count as necrons. The general Phase Out rule pretty much negates any purpose of taking non-necron units (save cheap ones) and the Monolith.

The Monolith is fine. I'd warrant that one should be mandatory, as it's basically where all the necrons come from, but having them be 1+ (even as troops) would make the Necron list unviable at lower points. Though you could easily point out that once Necrons are out of the monolith and devastating a planet, they won't have Monolith escorts. If you split up their Power Matrix something has to be removed. They should not be able to obliterate everything AND teleport models to them.

I think their use of the, as I call it (though probably not the first to call it such), "Necron Recycling Program" (yes, I'm vain and need the quotes =p) is fine. The Monolith needs to be able to serve a greater purpose in the Necron army, and for its points it needs to be able to prevent them from phasing out. Maybe even make it work 10 or even 20 necrons for purposes of the phase out rule. Or when it dies every Necron squad makes a LD test, and for ever point they fail by one necron automatically phases out.

I want to see more Flayed Ones and Wraiths, they're awesome models and I'm happy the local Necron player uses Flayed Ones (though they should be plastic or at least MUCH less expensive to purchase too!)

Xarian
08-11-2006, 19:22
Here are some thoughts:

"We'll be back!": Army rules tend to be open to a lot of debate. Synapse Creatures (Tyranids), ATSKNF (Marines), Ancient Enemies (Chaos), etcetera. And for such a simple army like Necrons, WBB is often a very confusing rule.

WBB should be just made into the Feel No Pain rule, as GW tends to dumb down army special rules in the new codecies. In turn, the Res Orb should allow the Necrons to take the Feel No Pain rule versus ranged Instant Death or CC weapons that allow no saves. It's easier than waiting a turn to see who gets up, it's more efficient, it makes Necrons harder to rout in CC (as-is, it's pretty easy, even with Ld10), and it eliminates the psychological "Weeble Effect" where you can wipe a whole unit out and then just watch them get back up and form into a new unit.
I disagree. Dumbing down the rules is a *bad* idea - WBB should stay as it is, as it provides something that's actually interesting.


C'tans: Include the Void Dragon and the Outsider. Other races have multi-dimensional pantheons, so why not Necrons? In general, the C'tans should have some effect over the Necrons they control. The Necs *were* after all, made out of their Living Metal, or something similar. And even in the fluff, Necron Lords (such as the poor soul who screwed up on Medussa V) are shown to be subordinate and even afraid of the C'tans they serve.
Yeah, I agree. It doesn't really matter where the Outsider and the Void Dragon are in the story (or even if they exist). They can, like many, many characters already, just be considered 'historical' characters.


A bigger demand for them: more fluff! The universe itself wants to know just what the Void Dragon has been up to, why it has beef with the Eldar, whether it's hiding in Mars or not, and what the reprocussions are to the Imperium. Currently, the Necrons seem like an Eldar problem, and humanity (a.k.a. the last great experiment of the Old Ones / the bearers of the Pariah Gene) really needs to be added to the mix, as humans seem to play a bigger part in the grand scheme of Necrons than they do now. Orks aren't the only stains in the galaxy, after all.
Agreed


Necron Lord: The Necron Lord is about as hamstrung as the Necron Wargear section is. The Wargear will be covered separately. The Necron Lord himself is pretty good as-is, provided he gets better wargear.
Agreed. His wargear in general should be beefed up all around (except maybe the staff of light).


Immortals: Up their cost. Immortals are far too easy a choice as-is. For their current cost, they're a steal. Also, because Necron Lords tend to take Immortal bodyguards, allow the Necron Lord to take a retinue of Immortals.
I'm not sure that this would be necessary if the other choices were made equally as attractive. If the cost was increased, it should only be by a few points - the main reason people don't take anything else is because everything else is kinda stinky.


Flayed Ones: Make into troops. They're the same cost as a Necron Warrior, and Flayed Ones armies (like a Necron version of the Genestealer Cult) allow a more combat-oriented army design, rather than just packing as many Gauss Flayers / Blasters / Cannons as possible into a single army.
Agreed


Pariahs: Where do I start? These guys are terrible! For as bad as they are, they should *not*, however, be made into Necrons as per the definition of Necrons, namely so they don't get WBB. Fair enough. I always envisioned Pariahs as the Terminators of Necrons, and shooting-wise they are. But in terms of resilience, T5 is great, but a 3+ save for a unit that cost is not. I envision Pariahs having a 2+ save and maybe a 4+ ward save (and costing about 50+ pts / model, which is only fair). And a single attack at I3? The Warscythe has nothing to do with it. You could be swinging around Drach'nyen, but with just one attack that's only one dead Grot per turn. Pariahs need at least 2 attacks. If they don't get WBB, they shouldn't act like clumsy little Warriors in CC. As a conclusion, they should be allowed to warp through the Monolith and via Veil of Darkness. Just not getting back up. Right now, it seems like they get all the cons of being Necrons without any of the pros.
Suggestion: make them T6 (similar to the Wraithguard improvement) and give them +1A and +1I. They'd be T6 with 2A and 4I... a unit that can actually have some uses in close-combat and still be resilient. They're already expensive enough. They shouldn't be able to use the portal, as they're not Necrons (they're Humans).


Necron Warriors: If the reccommended changes to WBB and Flayed Ones are amended, Warriors will be just fine. The only thing would be to force them to take Disruptor Fields to make them an even 20 pts / model, and only then so they don't get routinely pasted by Dreads in CC.
I don't see the need to force them to take Disruptor Fields - having it as an option is fine.


Destroyers: Here's where things get interesting. The biggest problem with Destroyers is that players notice that if they only use a single unit of Destroyers, and they all die in one turn, they have no chance to get back up via WBB, statistically cutting their resilience in half. So players have taken to what I call "Hot Wheels Necrons" (taken from one player who made his Necrons metallic blue and silver and painted flame decals on his Destroyer-body-mounted Necrons), taking three maximized units of Destroyers. On top of being beardy as dirt, it eliminates other perfectly viable Fast Attack choices from the equation. Amending WBB should fix that, so as not to force Necron players to take multiple Destroyer units or lose all their destroyers on turn 1. That just encourages people to play cheezy with Necs, though to be fair they don't have a lot of other options to be less cheezy while still competent.
Having them operate independently, similar to Zoanthropes, would work well. It would then be possible to implement a 0-1 force-org choice limitation similar to other independent units.


Wraiths: Same as destroyers, more or less. If you don't take multiple units, you may as well take none. Also, clarify their armor. Give them 3+ armor saves, and in addition a 3+ IV save. No more arguing over Psycannons bowling over Wraiths, which seems just soooo wrong. Also, disruptor fields or maybe rending CC weapons (pretty please?) to make them a little less of patterers and more of slashers, though with a great increase in their cost. Power Weapons on Wraiths makes them idiotically destructive to Infantry, but makes them puny versus heavily armored tanks (similar to the Genestealers from the 3rd ed BBB, for those with good long-term memory). Wraiths should be able to tear through anything with their Edward-Scissorhand-esque claws. Also, to add to the fact that Wraiths in long-term combat saves the slashed targets from the frighteningly effective Necron shooting, and because it makes sense with how they pass through solid walls, give them Hit and Run.
Similar to destroyers. Have them operate independently. Give them power weapons and a 3+ armor save and increase their cost a bit. Possibly limit them to 1 choice per detachment (so you won't see people with a huge horde of S6,I6 power-weapon wielding close-combat maniacs) similar to other independent units.


Scarabs: Just fine as-is actually. They do on the table what they do in the fluff, and they do it well.
I like Scarabs. There should be some sort of option to make them Troop choices, as well - perhaps you can have 1 as a troop choice per tomb spyder.


Heavy Destroyers: Same as Destroyers. Make taking single units of 'em viable.
Agreed - see the section on Destroyers


Tomb Spyders: Amend the Scarab / Tomb Spyder unit so that the Scarabs aren't tied down by the spider and so the Majority Toughness rule won't crutch the Spider itself. To think that Scarabs stay back to keep up with their Tomb Spyder is stupid. It's like a Biovore. Why hamstring the ammo when it doesn't count as scoring anyway?
The Scarabs should form individual units up to 6" away from the Spyder. Clarification: each Scarab produced would form a separate unit. Scarabs could then have an option to consolidate into a larger unit if necessary.


Monolith: Oh boy, does this thing need changing! First thing's first, scrap the Energy Matrix idea. Because the Mono's matrix cannot be harmed, it makes destroying weapons pointless. Make the Particle Whip a destroyable weapon. Also, make it so that a -6 modifier on the WD results on each Mono will destroy the Gauss Flux Arcs.
I agree. To make it clear for people who don't understand what he's saying: if a monolith takes a 'weapon destroyed' result, you just get -1 shot with the Gauss Flux Arc (from the rollable D6 that you start with). There is no limit, so you can have -12 shots with the D6 weapon and still not destroy the Flux Arc.

Second, change the deepstrike so that the Mono itself moves. As it is, the Mono can deepstrike in and shove other stuff around. It should be more like a drop pod, in that it scatters just as short as it needs to scatter to not die. That's enough.
I agree, but only because it's a huge hassle to deal with. Compulsory movement is always irritating.

Third, take away the double WBB for units jumping through a Mono.
I think that you included this because you wanted WBB to be the same as Feel No Pain. It would make sense in that case, but as it is I think re-rolling WBB from a single unit is fine.

Fourth, make destroying a Mono worth something. In the fluff, DoW, and just about any successful Necron repulsion, what turns the tide is when the Mono goes down, and what screws the defenders over is when they stupidly go whacking on the little Necrons. The troops creatively taking fast assault troops, plowing through the Warriors, and then the Mono itself Phases Out is just plain backwards. In Fantasy, losing a big leader of a zombie horde can critically cripple the zombies. The Mono needs a similar principle, like disabling WBB to nearby Necron units for a turn or something.
'If a Monolith is destroyed, all Necron units controlled by the owner of the destroyed Monolith within 24" are entangled on their next turn unless there is another friendly Monolith within 24"'

The Song of Spears
08-11-2006, 19:35
A kazoo and a couple of water balloons!

No really, i have the armies listed below, and so far necrons are the most fun for me to use.

Helicon_One
08-11-2006, 19:39
Put simply, I want them to be more than just Robo-Marines with Gauss Bolters, so fix the base Warrior profile first and work from there.

Tim

EarthScorpion
08-11-2006, 19:59
As a rather unusual idea, what about bumping the Standard Necron up to T5, but restricting them to a 4+ save?

Helicon_One
08-11-2006, 20:06
As a rather unusual idea, what about bumping the Standard Necron up to T5, but restricting them to a 4+ save?
I was thinking the other direction, actually... T3 and 2+.

Tim

AmKhaibitu
08-11-2006, 21:22
Pariahs, 2nd attack, problem solved. They already have a decent statline, and honestly I3 represents the speed of their warscythe well.

Wraiths, confirm that they have an actual Armour Save, and perhaps give them Heavy Close Combat weapons instead of actual power weapons. It also helps to show that armour isn't all that useful against an enemy who can phase in and out.

Destroyers and heavy destroyers, combine the two into the one entry, problem solved to an extent.

Flayed Ones, perhaps the option of taking them as troops.

Spyders, maybe including some sort of Scarab Wall solution similar to tyrant guard, until the swarms are dead kinda hard to shoot the spyder.

shadowghost
09-11-2006, 00:02
How about having one troops choice per warrior squad? That way you don't see entire armies of flayed ones, but they get to be in the troops section.

argent1970
09-11-2006, 00:37
okay aneutralshadeofblack said "Necron are of course fearless" which they are NOT, but should be. they are soulless automatons who don't learn or feel so why do they run away when shot at? doesn't make sense, but GW is trying to move away from fearless armies. tack on a couple of points and problem solved.

Mojaco
09-11-2006, 09:57
No, no don't do that! Fearless sucks enormously. Look at WFB, the fearless argument can be used for half the armies there, but instead they simply use leadership. GW does a good thing moving away from fearless armies.

ashc
09-11-2006, 10:45
I would like to see more variation on Lords, Flayers moved to troops and some units just made a bit better to make them worth taking (pariahs, wraiths).

On the subject of new stuff, who knows? i think its incredibly difficult to come up with new, interesting (and balanced) stuff for an army that practically comes off an automated manufacturing line.

Ash

A neutral shade of black.
09-11-2006, 10:50
okay aneutralshadeofblack said "Necron are of course fearless" which they are NOT, but should be.

I wasn't talking literally; I said fearless, not Fearless. ;) They're hard to break morally, but no more so than anything else Ld10. That said, not much else has Ld10 base troopers.

I do agree that they should be, though. They're space skelettons. They're dead. Soulless shell and all that? More so than all the other crap that gets Fearless thereby dismissing morale from the game, Necron should have the rule. Cadavers don't run away, even if they're space sci-fi cadavers from a long time ago.


I was thinking the other direction, actually... T3 and 2+.

No. Plasma is already way too effective. There's no point in giving it yet another boost.

The T5/4+Sv idea I like, though. Makes it hard as hell for guard to wound them and not instakillable, but easier for everything else. Hmm. Maybe the whole army should T4(5)?

hivefleetcarrion
09-11-2006, 11:30
on wraiths, how about giving them something like the chopper rule?

all saves are reduced to 4+ as they have a chance of phasing past it

if you wanted to go nuts could could add in something saying that models wounded by wraiths dont get inv saves, for the above reason(they phase past it)

a thing that should be done is put in that they also have an armor save

limit taking a c-tan to armies above say 1500pts, or 2000 ect points. would limit the amount of games where a c-tan can either own everything or the necron army phases out after 1 turn of firing and hey, at such low pts games they shouldnt be appearing anyway

let the pariahs count as necron(so they count towards phase out), but dont get wbb or make them 4(5)

just my 2 cents

TaintedSpam
09-11-2006, 11:30
Necrons certainly do not need help against IG.

Grimtuff
09-11-2006, 11:49
Spyders, maybe including some sort of Scarab Wall solution similar to tyrant guard, until the swarms are dead kinda hard to shoot the spyder.


Spyders cannot be picked out from shooting anyway, the thing you're thinking of refers to Mounstrous Creatures who also happen to be Independent Characters. On a unit of Scarabs/TS's you simply use the mixed toughness rules, same with the Spear of Khaine in the USF (when it existed) ;)

azimaith
09-11-2006, 12:23
Here are some thoughts:

"We'll be back!": Army rules tend to be open to a lot of debate. Synapse Creatures (Tyranids), ATSKNF (Marines), Ancient Enemies (Chaos), etcetera. And for such a simple army like Necrons, WBB is often a very confusing rule.

WBB isn't confusing or complicated.



WBB should be just made into the Feel No Pain rule, as GW tends to dumb down army special rules in the new codecies. In turn, the Res Orb should allow the Necrons to take the Feel No Pain rule versus ranged Instant Death or CC weapons that allow no saves. It's easier than waiting a turn to see who gets up, it's more efficient, it makes Necrons harder to rout in CC (as-is, it's pretty easy, even with Ld10), and it eliminates the psychological "Weeble Effect" where you can wipe a whole unit out and then just watch them get back up and form into a new unit.

It also makes necrons a whole lot more survivable. I thought you said "not better"



C'tans: Include the Void Dragon and the Outsider. Other races have multi-dimensional pantheons, so why not Necrons? In general, the C'tans should have some effect over the Necrons they control. The Necs *were* after all, made out of their Living Metal, or something similar. And even in the fluff, Necron Lords (such as the poor soul who screwed up on Medussa V) are shown to be subordinate and even afraid of the C'tans they serve.

When was the last time the emperor, khorne, or nurgle popped onto the table top. I think it would better to remove the C'tan from the codex all together and add C'tan "eidelons" giant living statues of living metal, that work as a sort of proxy ctan but less powerful.



A bigger demand for them: more fluff! The universe itself wants to know just what the Void Dragon has been up to, why it has beef with the Eldar, whether it's hiding in Mars or not, and what the reprocussions are to the Imperium. Currently, the Necrons seem like an Eldar problem, and humanity (a.k.a. the last great experiment of the Old Ones / the bearers of the Pariah Gene) really needs to be added to the mix, as humans seem to play a bigger part in the grand scheme of Necrons than they do now. Orks aren't the only stains in the galaxy, after all.

Its beef with the eldar is pretty clearly written out in the GW necron page in the "eldar mythology" section.



Necron Lord: The Necron Lord is about as hamstrung as the Necron Wargear section is. The Wargear will be covered separately. The Necron Lord himself is pretty good as-is, provided he gets better wargear.

His wargear is some of the most amazing in the game. Whats wrong is that the necron lord is a mediocre fighter, not that his wargear is bad, though not all of its especially useful all the time.



Immortals: Up their cost. Immortals are far too easy a choice as-is. For their current cost, they're a steal. Also, because Necron Lords tend to take Immortal bodyguards, allow the Necron Lord to take a retinue of Immortals.

How about no. Immortals are expensive enough all ready that they make an excellent choice for slow moving fire support but not a brain dead take 30 of them choice. They are perfectly priced as they are now.



Flayed Ones: Make into troops. They're the same cost as a Necron Warrior, and Flayed Ones armies (like a Necron version of the Genestealer Cult) allow a more combat-oriented army design, rather than just packing as many Gauss Flayers / Blasters / Cannons as possible into a single army.

Flayed ones rarely fill up any elites slots because they are just plain not very good. They're slow, they're combat abilities are mediocre, and without the benefit of a squad leader with a power weapon, they're relatively craptastic in close assault with MEQ armies. Their abilities do not really override the loss of a gauss weapon.



Pariahs: Where do I start? These guys are terrible! For as bad as they are, they should *not*, however, be made into Necrons as per the definition of Necrons, namely so they don't get WBB. Fair enough. I always envisioned Pariahs as the Terminators of Necrons, and shooting-wise they are.

Pariahs shooting doesn't really compare to assault cannon fire.
The shooting is just an add on more or less anyhow though, not the main event.



But in terms of resilience, T5 is great, but a 3+ save for a unit that cost is not. I envision Pariahs having a 2+ save and maybe a 4+ ward save (and costing about 50+ pts / model, which is only fair). And a single attack at I3? The Warscythe has nothing to do with it. You could be swinging around Drach'nyen, but with just one attack that's only one dead Grot per turn. Pariahs need at least 2 attacks. If they don't get WBB, they shouldn't act like clumsy little Warriors in CC. As a conclusion, they should be allowed to warp through the Monolith and via Veil of Darkness. Just not getting back up. Right now, it seems like they get all the cons of being Necrons without any of the pros.
[quote]
This is what I would suggest for pariahs too.

[quote]
Necron Warriors: If the reccommended changes to WBB and Flayed Ones are amended, Warriors will be just fine. The only thing would be to force them to take Disruptor Fields to make them an even 20 pts / model, and only then so they don't get routinely pasted by Dreads in CC.

What necron player lets a dread within 12" without hosing him down with gauss fire? Disruption fields are practically worthless on anything but scarabs.



Destroyers: Here's where things get interesting. The biggest problem with Destroyers is that players notice that if they only use a single unit of Destroyers, and they all die in one turn, they have no chance to get back up via WBB, statistically cutting their resilience in half. So players have taken to what I call "Hot Wheels Necrons" (taken from one player who made his Necrons metallic blue and silver and painted flame decals on his Destroyer-body-mounted Necrons), taking three maximized units of Destroyers. On top of being beardy as dirt, it eliminates other perfectly viable Fast Attack choices from the equation. Amending WBB should fix that, so as not to force Necron players to take multiple Destroyer units or lose all their destroyers on turn 1. That just encourages people to play cheezy with Necs, though to be fair they don't have a lot of other options to be less cheezy while still competent.

I don't see how making destroyers better would cause players to take less of them. They just get taken as much with even more resilience.



Wraiths: Same as destroyers, more or less. If you don't take multiple units, you may as well take none. Also, clarify their armor. Give them 3+ armor saves, and in addition a 3+ IV save.

They don't necessarily need a 3+/3+i.



No more arguing over Psycannons bowling over Wraiths, which seems just soooo wrong.

Not really. They're charged with psychic energy, theres alot of ways to talk compare psycannons (it would be better if it just said: "Daemons may not take their invulnerable saves against psycannons"



Also, disruptor fields or maybe rending CC weapons (pretty please?) to make them a little less of patterers and more of slashers, though with a great increase in their cost.

If they decide to make wraiths a small elite fast attack unit to be used like a knife rather than a mallet (which is how they are now) they could give them flat out power weapons and make them 60-70 points.



Power Weapons on Wraiths makes them idiotically destructive to Infantry, but makes them puny versus heavily armored tanks (similar to the Genestealers from the 3rd ed BBB, for those with good long-term memory).

Str 6>back armor. They are jetbikes after all. Or just give them warscythes and make them 0-1 with the same points increase.



Wraiths should be able to tear through anything with their Edward-Scissorhand-esque claws. Also, to add to the fact that Wraiths in long-term combat saves the slashed targets from the frighteningly effective Necron shooting, and because it makes sense with how they pass through solid walls, give them Hit and Run.

They won't need hit and run with warscythes.

Theres two ways for designers to run wraiths. They either make them a bulk fast attack mallet that wins by numbers of attacks, in which case just keep them as is and give them WS5+, or as a small surgical unit, in which case bump their cost up 20 or so points and give them warscythes as well as make them 0-1 choices.



Scarabs: Just fine as-is actually. They do on the table what they do in the fluff, and they do it well.

Most underpriced swarm unit *ever*. Increase their cost by a small amount.



Heavy Destroyers: Same as Destroyers. Make taking single units of 'em viable.

The heavy destroyers gun really isn't much more effective than the destroyers gun for their jobs. (The Gauss cannon is awesome anti-infantry, decent anti tank, the Hgauss is good MC/big creature, decent anti-tank, and poor anti-infantry.) They need to be dropped to the same price as destroyers.



Tomb Spyders: Amend the Scarab / Tomb Spyder unit so that the Scarabs aren't tied down by the spider and so the Majority Toughness rule won't crutch the Spider itself. To think that Scarabs stay back to keep up with their Tomb Spyder is stupid. It's like a Biovore. Why hamstring the ammo when it doesn't count as scoring anyway?

Biovores are scoring units :). Zoanthropes aren't. Get rid of the wound on a 1, what the hells the tomb spyder doing? Getting hemmrhoids?



Monolith: Oh boy, does this thing need changing! First thing's first, scrap the Energy Matrix idea. Because the Mono's matrix cannot be harmed, it makes destroying weapons pointless.

No it doesn't. -1 on a d6 is a big difference.



Make the Particle Whip a destroyable weapon.

Why? Its rarely if ever even used in comparison to the portal.



Also, make it so that a -6 modifier on the WD results on each Mono will destroy the Gauss Flux Arcs.

Uh, it basically does. -6+D6=0 or less. The lith won't live through enough hits to get 6 results almost ever.



Second, change the deepstrike so that the Mono itself moves. As it is, the Mono can deepstrike in and shove other stuff around. It should be more like a drop pod, in that it scatters just as short as it needs to scatter to not die.

Why? Drop pod=small, monolith = giant freaking pyramid. Theres nothing wrong with it shoved units out of the way, they just move the minimum distance and they're all hunky dory.



That's enough. Third, take away the double WBB for units jumping through a Mono.

This is the only thing I would change about the lith out of this entire list.



Fourth, make destroying a Mono worth something. In the fluff, DoW, and just about any successful Necron repulsion, what turns the tide is when the Mono goes down, and what screws the defenders over is when they stupidly go whacking on the little Necrons.

Because losing 200+ points in one vehicle doesn't hurt at all. Dawn of War is not accurate to 40k, its immortals are "glass cannons" and its destroyer fires slower than its heavy destroyer. Battles with necrons *don't* turn. In fluff necrons pick who they attack and when they leave. Your best bet is to whack a lord to get rid of their support.



The troops creatively taking fast assault troops, plowing through the Warriors, and then the Mono itself Phases Out is just plain backwards. In Fantasy, losing a big leader of a zombie horde can critically cripple the zombies. The Mono needs a similar principle, like disabling WBB to nearby Necron units for a turn or something.
No, thats ridiculous. The monolith being destroys blows away a huge chunk of your army, it cripples your mobility, and it removes a large amount of support. The monolith doesn't lead armies, the necron lord does, and if the necron lord dies its a very very bad thing for necrons already.

You've basically written a post based on looking balanced by deprication. Its not, you overestimate necrons and you've ignored the most important things that need fixing.

gitburna
09-11-2006, 12:53
The trouble with necrons is the way that WBB encourages or even dictates that you should use lots of the same type of elite/fast attack/heavysupport in order to be effective. If you want necrons to be fun, then you need a way to ensure that taking small units of wraiths [for instance] isnt counter productive. I did like the Feel no Pain suggestion at the beginning of the thread. Even if points costs were lowered for the less used choices i still dont think that you would be encouraging variety *within* the army because of the WBB mechanic:- it'd still favour all wraiths, all destroyers etc etc.

And of course pariahs need to be improved somehow, i like to use a small squad of them mainly for their Ld7 bubble which is very useful for halting assaults by enemy elite units, but you do have to be very careful in where they're kept to avoid just being blown away first.

Finally it'd be nice NOT to have to "waste" 40 points buying a resurrection orb for necron lords:- Assuming that WBB Stayed in a similar format to the moment , have these built in to the lords cost as they're virtually compulsory anyway and let me save the points for other trinkets which might give the lord [and thus the army since the lord is the only customisable choice] some individuality.

AmKhaibitu
09-11-2006, 13:08
Spyders cannot be picked out from shooting anyway, the thing you're thinking of refers to Mounstrous Creatures who also happen to be Independent Characters. On a unit of Scarabs/TS's you simply use the mixed toughness rules, same with the Spear of Khaine in the USF (when it existed) ;)

Yes I know this, but that's not what I'm getting at.
What I'm getting at is not being able to actually hit the spyder with shooting unless you kill all the attendant swarms with it, as currently now due to majority toughness and torrent of fire, that can be one dead spyder very easily (ok, so you get a 3+ save for it, but still.)

Make the swarms less of a hindrance on the spyder, like they once were back before majority toughness screwed swarming up.

At least if you have one or more swarms generated the spyder doesn't cop a lascannon to the face at first opportunity. It's the small-arms fire that's the issue.

junglesnake
09-11-2006, 13:31
okay aneutralshadeofblack said "Necron are of course fearless" which they are NOT, but should be. they are soulless automatons who don't learn or feel so why do they run away when shot at? doesn't make sense, but GW is trying to move away from fearless armies. tack on a couple of points and problem solved.

The problem is that people assume that moral checks basicaly equates to running away - this is not correct.

A tactical withdrawel from overwelming numbers is infact quite logical - something machines are supposedly based around. So if they calculated the odds that they were better off withdrawing than staying to be destroyed then it makes sence.

Add to that the knowledge that they can not resurect after being wiped out in combat and you see that it may well be in their best - no, more logical interests to retreat and to reform.

I have to say I don't know the Necron rules but my suggestions would be(in total ignorance) make them stubborn, have the same rules moral wise as in Space Marines in that they always rally. To add to that have some sort of mob up rule where two depleated units falling back in close proximity may form one new unit so long as they are of the same type and their total numbers don't take them beyond the limits of the unit size in their army list.

To me this represents the fact that they all act as one and fight for a shared goal and essentially represents a machine guided force. It would also make them pretty relentless without making them impossible to throw back from objectives etc.

Grimtuff
09-11-2006, 16:23
Yes I know this, but that's not what I'm getting at.
What I'm getting at is not being able to actually hit the spyder with shooting unless you kill all the attendant swarms with it, as currently now due to majority toughness and torrent of fire, that can be one dead spyder very easily (ok, so you get a 3+ save for it, but still.)

Make the swarms less of a hindrance on the spyder, like they once were back before majority toughness screwed swarming up.

At least if you have one or more swarms generated the spyder doesn't cop a lascannon to the face at first opportunity. It's the small-arms fire that's the issue.

I see what you're getting at now. Maybe make some kind of "release the hounds" type thing (a la the Ogre Hunter in WHFB)? But this would require an obvious pts increase for the Spyder, as it can create "free" Scarab units (though this could be remedied by saying said Scarabs count as dead for VP purposes at the end of the game?)

Toastrider
09-11-2006, 16:32
Add to that the knowledge that they can not resurect after being wiped out in combat and you see that it may well be in their best - no, more logical interests to retreat and to reform.

Technically incorrect. The 'Phase Out' rule ensures ALL Necron casualties return to their appropriate tomb world to be rebuilt; this is explained in a fluff story in the Codex. This is also why Dark Eldar can't gain VPs from capturing Necrons, because they cannot be captured; they just phase out, waggling their little metal butts at the evil space elves.

Boy, there's an image I bet you didn't need. :D

A morale break isn't so much the Warriors losing heart as it is their Lord instructing them to fall back from what may be an untenable position. The Lords can (and do) demonstrate independent thought, although they too are bound by the will of the C'tan.

--TR

Wintermute
09-11-2006, 20:42
FYI I've deleted all of cuchallain1's spammy posts and all replies to them.

Wintermute
The WarSeer Inquisition

Core_Commander
09-11-2006, 20:43
Cool. So there is some justice ;). Anyway, what about actually making Pariahs Necrons? The rules say "Necron", not "Necrontyr" - and they're supposed to be the future of the species, after all?

And giving Flayed Ones rending (I know people are allergic to that word, but they're a CC unit, so...) and Wraiths power weapons seems quite viable, at a cost.

Seriously, anyhthing to make people get off that awful copy and paste phalanx armies would be good... I don't play the Necrons, but I like the models and it's a shame they are like_this now.

gitburna
09-11-2006, 22:02
Cool. So there is some justice ;). Anyway, what about actually making Pariahs Necrons? The rules say "Necron", not "Necrontyr" - and they're supposed to be the future of the species, after all?

And giving Flayed Ones rending (I know people are allergic to that word, but they're a CC unit, so...) and Wraiths power weapons seems quite viable, at a cost.

Seriously, anyhthing to make people get off that awful copy and paste phalanx armies would be good... I don't play the Necrons, but I like the models and it's a shame they are like_this now.

Hmmm pariahs I would like to see be able to teleport/etc but making them full "Necrons" seems a little wrong. As for the rending, I wouldnt mind wraiths having it assuming they kept the current unit size. But i think having integrated or just cheaper "disruption fields" would be more characterful for the flayed ones than yet another rending unit.