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Flatline
08-11-2006, 17:05
I have been following the discussions on what the new orks should be like with some interest and one thing that has cropped up is a few times - what should the ork be good at? I think this needs to be expanded to include where do orks fit into the 40k universe?

It has been said that the orks do not have niche to call their own in 40k. other armies are far better at shooting (guard, tau, marines). Other armies are more mobile (tau, eldar). Quite a lot of armies are better at h2h (chaos, nids, eldar) and armies can field bigger hordes (guard, nids, L&D).

Similarly the orks don't seem to have a defining characteristic in 40k. They are not the great xenos threat (nids) nor the gerat enemy of mankind (chaos). Eldar are enigmatic and elite. The tau are high tech and the good guys.

So what should the orks be like and what should they be good at?

My opinion is that the orks are simplistic (note that doesn't necessarily mean stupid) and brutal. They operate mostly on instinct and tend to take the most direct approach to a problem. I see their technology being crude but functional. It will never be pretty to look at and will almost certainly be a health and safety nightmare, but hey, it works!

Orks seem to have very little concept of pain and so don't fear it. Coupled with the orks lack of deep thought and you have a race that functions on impluse. They do stuff cause it's fun, or because they wanted to see what happened. No ork would every worry about consequences until they happened and even then he'd probably just accept it.

Example - an ork finds a big lever. He wonders what it does. He pulls the lever. A huge blade slices the ork's arm off. The ork goes "Whoops!" picks his arm up and goes looking for the dok.

As far as the rest of the 40k universe is concerned I think orks should be a bit like vermin. They get everywhere. They are almost impossible to get rid of and they are a constant nuisence (always looking for a fight). They are not normally a big threat as long as you keep on top of them. Leave them alone for a year or so and you will find a full scale ork community. Leave them long enough and the orks will build up to the point that a Waaagh! will occur.

Just some thoughts.
Flatline.

BloodOrkClanBoss
08-11-2006, 17:09
I think Orks fill the Wild Space Barbarian niche very well. We are feral. We've developed our own crude technology and still have our strength of fighting in hand to hand. We might just be the middle ground.

Darkseer
08-11-2006, 17:11
I think the Orks are fine as they are, but for 1 thing. They need to be able to loot up to 3 vehicles in an army, not just 0-1.

That way they'll be more competitive for players who are that way inclined.

Ziljin
08-11-2006, 17:13
they do serve a role. they are a giant horde of h2h monsters. their choppas make even elite infantry crumble before them. and you can field so many footsloggers. they are a massive horde of brutes, they just have poor accuracy. And they don't have much armor, because like you said, they can endure the pain, they don't care about armor.

And they already are like vermin, they reproduce like crazy through the spores. And its been stated in the codex that they are almost impossible to get rid of.

BozzyB
08-11-2006, 17:17
Orks, however are the main enermy of mankind. From what I can gather armies of chaos are rarely seen, whereas entire hordes of orks squaring-off to Imperial Guard is the most common battle in the 40k universe. Despite this, the most common battle (gamewise) seems to be space marines vs. chaos space marines.

All the other alien races are supposed to be rare encounters for your standard soldier, but this doesn't reflect in the game, just the background.

So really the orks niche is "The Bad Guys".




BozzyB

Sick
08-11-2006, 17:17
Orks are no major Xenos threat because there is no Ork Warboss who has ever managed to unite a bigger horde then Ghazkhll.

If there WAS a bigger warboss then Ghaz who WOULD unite ALL Orks in the Galaxy there would be NOTHING that could stop them.

But kicking Grots is a lot more fun than conquering Galaxies aint it?


So really the orks niche is "The Bad Guys".

They are nothing like the tipical bad guys IMO.
Chaos is BAD TO THE BONE. Orks just want to stomp and be happy.

Orks are philosophers stuck on the level of a six year old barbarian who grew up drinking Beer insted of mothermilk.

Nuff said...

BodhiTree
08-11-2006, 17:21
The funny thing is that although Chaos is the greatest threat to the Imperium, the Orks should be the most common as they're everywhere. In the fluff it states that the probes the Imperium has sent out to unexplored regions of the galaxy and beyond has sent back evidence of the existence of Orks. Imperial strategists are aware that no matter where and how much they expand, they will always have to deal with the Orks.

Simsandwich
08-11-2006, 17:33
The Orks will own TEH G4LAXY!!!!!

Ahem...
The Orks are the enemy. The main enemy, THE BIG BAD GREEN ALIENS. The most fought battles in the Imperium are between Guardsmen, and Orks. They are the Menace, the villains, the antagonists.
And they are brilliant, they are fun to play, any Ork player will tell you this, when was the last time you heard that Space Marines were fun to play?

Orks are the most fantastic race in 40K.
And you can take that to the bank. (See the "Who Loves Orks?" thread in Groups and Factions.)

x-esiv-4c
08-11-2006, 17:36
when orks spore the hell out of a planet, you might as well call it quits. The only way you are going to get rid of those gits is a full blown exterminatus.

What is their place? Well, they are savage, brutal, martial and most importantly of all, been around is the RT days.

Tastyfish
08-11-2006, 17:55
Orks are 40K's Klingons, and the main competitors of the Imperium outside of the Eastern fringe. There needs to be quite a few subtle changes to the Orks army and background with the next edition really...this is a good example


I think the Orks are fine as they are, but for 1 thing. They need to be able to loot up to 3 vehicles in an army, not just 0-1.

That way they'll be more competitive for players who are that way inclined.
Absolutely not, the 'Looted Vehicle' option needs to be removed and replaced with Ork equivalents. Its all part of diluting the flavour of the orks - having them with baslisks and leman russ increases the feel that they are inept. A Basilisk and a decent tank equivalent are what they need to allow people to still use their old looted vehicles but it should be that most ork armies have ork made tanks.

Background wise I think more emphasis needs to be placed on the everyday orks rather than just Waaghs, an Ork Waagh is like an Imperial Crusade and probably as rare. The new Dark Crusade game has a lot of quite decent background on the orks in it and how they interact with the other races. Most of peoples armies are going to be the warbands that spring up on planets after the waagh has come.

Rather than an occasional threat (which they can't do as well as having the biomass removed from a planet or the world descending into a literal living hell), it should be stressed that for a good proportion of worlds within the Imperium - Orks are a common threat and almost part of everyday life for those who live outside the protection of the PDF and the big cities. Most worlds are going to have an ork infested swamp, jungle or desert (which would be nice to have the clans themed around a bit more - Goffs tending toward ruins and seiges, Evil Suns tending to reside in deserts, Snake bites in jungles and forests etc).

One of the appeals of the Tau is that they shine as much of a light on the workings of the Imperium as they add a new race, Orks should do the same - they are all about getting on with your life (whatever the colour of your skin, be it pink, green or grey) in a universe where life is short and brutal and war is everywhere.

It even offers a potential outlook for the army - the ork army is a guerilla warfare one, everything is simple, reliable and gets the job done. No frills or big and showy but inefficient warmachines when a simple rokit or burning can of petrol can do the job just as well.

Goq Gar
08-11-2006, 17:57
Basically, Orks are the Ultimate "Fluff argument winners".

When you're an ork player, and you get into an argument about fluff, You can always say "Well, your space marines may be Nigh-invincible, But my orks can't be defeated in battle. If they win they win, if they die, it doesnt count, if they lose, they can always come back with more boys!"

They're not the ultimate bad guy, that's chaos. They are the ultimate antagonist. They are in every battle everywhere, a constant threat.

Tastyfish
08-11-2006, 18:06
To continue on form before - its this constant threat aspect that needs highlighting. I want to hear more about what happens when orks conquor a world (rather than just they turn on each other - but what of the humans left behind, how many end up as runts in factories, how many are almost as happy as the orks are in the new anarchic state, how many go 'native' and end up like Diggaz)

What might be nice would be some IG doctrines in an 'enemy of the orks' section, representing either the PDFs who fight them, veteran units like the Armageddon ork fighters and the renegades and pirates who occasionally fight by their side or as part of bigger mercanry forces. Something like the necron's section where they suggest battles against Lizardmen and Eldar

Armywise I think something akin to the new Eldar organisation would be good - with two possible armies (Feral or Waagh) being represented by units competing for slots. The former with squiggoths and the option for more buggy type things in heavy support (possible up to a certain number of guns makes them fast - but up to 4 guns on them makes them heay support) but losing out on the larger tanks, whilst the latter gain access to more of the elite units who spread into fast attack (possibly some smaller tank things in there too)

lordmetroid
08-11-2006, 18:09
No I like my looted equipment. Orkz would always try to make use of whatever is available hence looted wargear and warmachines needs to stay in the codex. No question about it.

I tend not to look at what are they good at. But rather what are they not good at. And that is Anti-high armor. While Tau is weak against Close Combat and Bugz can't deal with weapon of mass-destruction. In a comfortable way.

Orkz sure can deal with armor if they really wanted to. Just get their with powerklaws and Tankbusta bombz and the fireworks can start. Tau can fight in Close combat with their suits but like Orkz they will not be very comfortable once in that position.

I do agree Orkz needs more characterfull wargear and warmachines. Sadly with the 4th edition GW stole most of out special rules that made up an Ork army and allowed other armies to use them. Nice GW we Orkz lost being special. Now I want toys that really defines Orkz like: Stompa(6" high gargant); regain tellyporting and forcefield technology to reflect the Orkz superior knowledge of this technology and get me special rules once again for my Ork units.

Modelling wise they are the best army to play in my opinion as one will have unlimited amount of opportunities to create whatever models one want from scratch or conversions.

Tastyfish
08-11-2006, 18:11
No I like my looted equipment. Orkz would always try to make use of whatever is available hence looted wargear and warmachines needs to stay in the codex. No question about it.

Yeah but to use Medusa as an example - making use of a wrecked tank means stripping it for parts and building buggies and gunwagons, not fixing it. Just seems wildly out of character for orks to go fixing things - breaking it totally and then making something else out of the mess yes, but repairing things?

If it broke in the first place its obviously squishy like the runts that made it, why it needs to be built like an ork to be tough and reliable.

Stingray_tm
08-11-2006, 18:35
Yeah but to use Medusa as an example - making use of a wrecked tank means stripping it for parts and building buggies and gunwagons, not fixing it. Just seems wildly out of character for orks to go fixing things - breaking it totally and then making something else out of the mess yes, but repairing things?

If it broke in the first place its obviously squishy like the runts that made it, why it needs to be built like an ork to be tough and reliable.

Maybe they found a Titan and made a bunch of Leman Russes :D

Da Reddaneks
08-11-2006, 18:44
There are two ways of looking at our place in the 40K game.

The first is how we fit into the fluff. Orks are the ultimate survivor species and the ultimate warrior race. Between our reproductive abilities and "looting" skills to meet our own logistical needs we can never truly be defeated. We were created by the brain boyz to combat the Necrontyr and kicked thier butt. However, we were too good and destroyed everything in our path.

The brain boyz did create one fatal flaw in the ork species however. This is the flaw of not being able to organize except to meet an apparent threat. If there is not a sufficient threat then we cannot organize. Thus, we are the ultimate spoilers in the galaxy. We may never rule the galaxy but we can make sure no one else does either.

As far as game play goes, we fill a very obvious gap in the 40K game. We are for players who are more light hearted and want to have fun as opposed to seeing how many dice they can roll. As far as game play goes we should be the incarnation of quantity over quality with the maxium of quantity has a quality all its own.

Our shooting should be poor but we should fill the sky with so much lead that a gnat would not want to take to the air. Our boys should die by the droves but like a green wave keep coming despite our losses. Our equipment should occasionally malfunction but it should be inexpensive and when it does work be powerful.

that is, in brief, what i think orks should be in the 40K universe.

Getifa Ubazza
08-11-2006, 18:48
I see orks as the mirror image of the imperium, where the imperium is dark and brooding, the orks are bright and full of life, where the imperium is repressive and backward looking, the orks are open and always looking for new stuff to explore. Im not the best at explaining what i mean but i suppose what i mean is, the orks should reflect the imperial guard. Where the guard are slow and organised, the orks are fast and full of anarcy. Where the guard use tanks to do the fighting, orks use buggies and bikes. where both armies should have a little of what the other specializes in, they should never be as good at what the other does best.

The main problem i see for orks in the 40k game is that GW seem to consentrate on marines vs chaos marines which doesnt happen very often, where in reality most battles in the 40k universe is between imperial guard and orks. There for GW should consentrate more on the guard and orks as the main armies in 40k, but i suppose that wouldnt bring in the money, would it.

lordmetroid
08-11-2006, 19:05
I also see Orkz kind of like the Imperial guard. In that a single unit is of no value not even the HQ is a of a great value compared to other armies. However when combines with the rest of the army it can produce deeds of glorious victories.

However unlike Imperial guard we Orkz uses the opposite tactics of Close Combat. But we can indeed dish out some number of shoots as well. I don't want to loose that, never. But Imperial guard can do Close combat fighting as well. Just not as good as shooting.

I do play Bad Moonz and I learned that if you want to play with shooty Orkz you will need to dedicate everything to be give you as many bullets per points as possible and it will still not be good enough and hence you will be forced to get into Close Combat if you want to win. Just as like Guards can dedicate themselves to Close combat in the end they will need their ranged weaponpower to win a game.

Helicon_One
08-11-2006, 19:35
I think the Orks are fine as they are, but for 1 thing. They need to be able to loot up to 3 vehicles in an army, not just 0-1.
Yukk. I'm with tastyfish on this one, Looted Vehicles serve only to dilute the distinctiveness of the Ork army and make them look like a second rate force who need Imperial Ordnance as a crutch to kill the Bid Bad Marines for them. That aside, from a practical point of view allowing looted vehicles leads to all sorts of headaches when putting a Codex for them. Get rid of looted vehicles as a Codex unit (as a fluff concept its ok, but captured Imperial wrecks should be Orkified beyond all recognition, not patched up to shiny new Imperial factory specification) and have Orks using Ork vehicles.

I've got an Ork Codex thread (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38069) to plug in the Rules Development forum, if anyone would like to take a look.


Despite this, the most common battle (gamewise) seems to be space marines vs. chaos space marines.
I thought the most common battle was Imperial Space Marines vs Imperial Space Marines?


If there WAS a bigger warboss then Ghaz who WOULD unite ALL Orks in the Galaxy there would be NOTHING that could stop them.
If all the Orks in the galaxy were united, then they wouldn't be Orks! Factionalism and treachery is an innate part of Orky politics and society, frankly you may as well say "If the Imperium, Chaos and the Eldar all united they'd be unstoppable", whilst it may be technically true there's just as little chance of it happening.

Tim

Voodoo Boyz
08-11-2006, 20:16
Alls I know is that if they take away my Looted Tanks, my 3 converted models will be very, very pissed off.

Jeeze we get one shooting option that's effective game wise, and people want to take it away! :rolleyes:

I also hear stuff like "we're an army for people who are light hearted and want to have fun" and no offense but that just sounds to me like saying we shouldn't be as powerful as the other armies - and that silly notion just gets me ready to swing a choppa around.

Fluff wise, we are a threat everywhere in the galaxy. We are so numerous in in every single area of the universe that there is no other army that shouldn't be fighting with us on a regular basis. We should not be the pushovers that we are game wise, we are a constant threat that needs dealing with, something that can chip away at their resources. The only difference between us and Chaos is that while we're a constant threat that needs dealing with, it's separate isolated incidents. A local Waaagh pops up over here, eventually breaks down as the enemy throws resources into it, and then an unrelated Waaagh breaks out elsewhere in the sector by another Warboss, only to have a Feral Waaagh breakout in the other spot we got beat in a decade ago, etc.

It's only when those rare kunnin and krumpin Warlords come up and unite sectors worth of Orks that we become something that can really threaten anyone else. Not because we're pushovers, but because Waaaghs are generally local affairs that don't have the logistical resources behind them to keep them going over long periods of time. When we're running, we're running strong and fierce, but after the Boss gets knocked off the Waaagh breaks down to infighting.

Game wise, we need some defining and right quick. There are no real unique playstyles anymore. Nids, Chaos, and DE all have fast assault armies covered. Just about every other army out there out shoots us, easily.

We should have dedicated, powerful shooting and devastating close combat. Look at the new Eldar. They've got Bright Lances, tons of high strength guns with tons of shots, all sorts of varying troops from 5+ save fodder to guys with better Toughness and a 3+ save, and they also have some of the best CC units in the game in the form of Banshees and Harlequins.

We should follow in a very similar route, getting effective units and increases in power to bring us in line with what other armies have had for years.

Us players will never agree on it. You've got people who insist Orks are fine, or people who say Orks are underpowered and should stay that way, and finally you've got people who say they need a huge power boost. GW is going to have to come in and put their game designers to work as coming up with a balance for our army is going to take some real changes. Add too much and we break the game, add too little and we're going to languish as we do now.

Karhedron
08-11-2006, 20:48
You've got people who insist Orks are fine, or people who say Orks are underpowered and should stay that way, and finally you've got people who say they need a huge power boost.
And no one who claims they are overpowered currently? :p

Personally I think that Orks are about right in terms of stats. I think that the basic boyz could do with coming down in cost a point or two. If you look at the new Fantasy Orc list, they have done it in such a way as to make the basic infantry horde the most easy and effective army. I feel the Orks should be similar. Hordes of boyz ready to bash heads together with a smattering of more unusual units in support.

Eblis_Dead_Forever
08-11-2006, 20:53
I don't see whats wrong with looted vehicles I actually find it alot of fun blowing up the guard with their own tanks :D. It is part of ork culture we have a whole klan dedicated to looting just because the stupid humies won't use other peoples technology. Doesn't mean the orks should stop looting. The simple way round it is make it more orky, replace weapons with their ork equivilent or give the ork player an option to change the weapons. I wouldn't mind the option of sticking a zap cannon on a rhino or something equally bizarre. I actually think we should have acess to more looted stuff I think most ork players have had their eyes on tau technology for quiet some time, looted hammerhead anyone?

Helicon_One
08-11-2006, 20:58
Alls I know is that if they take away my Looted Tanks, my 3 converted models will be very, very pissed off.
What if you could still use your converted vehicles as Kustom Waguns? Taking away the Looted Vehicle unit doesn't mean you have to throw your conversions in the bin, it can mean you'll get something new for them to count as instead.

Check my codex in the Rules Development forum, and let me know what you think.


Jeeze we get one shooting option that's effective game wise, and people want to take it away!
That's quite a problem in itself though, don't you think? You say there's only one good shooting unit in our list, and its not even our own! Its something taken from another list!

Surely what we should be wanting is distinct Ork units that perform decently, not relying on Imperial tanks to prop up the list for us?


I actually think we should have acess to more looted stuff I think most ork players have had their eyes on tau technology for quiet some time, looted hammerhead anyone?
Model-wise, yes, Ork players should be able to use any vehicle model they like as the basis for their Waguns and Trukks (imagine a wrecked Hammerhead with huge monster trukk wheels grafted on!). From a rules point-of-view, though, there's a huge problem with saying to Ork players that they need to go out and buy everyone else's codex just so they have access to the rules for their available vehicles.

Like I said in another thread, imagine the outrage that would be caused if the Space Marine Codex only had Rhinos and Land Raiders in it, and the Marine players had to go out and buy Imperial Armour 1, 2 and 3 just to get the rules for Predators, Whirlwinds and Vindicators.

Tim

Voodoo Boyz
08-11-2006, 21:18
What if you could still use your converted vehicles as Kustom Waguns? Taking away the Looted Vehicle unit doesn't mean you have to throw your conversions in the bin, it can mean you'll get something new for them to count as instead.

Check my codex in the Rules Development forum, and let me know what you think.


That's quite a problem in itself though, don't you think? You say there's only one good shooting unit in our list, and its not even our own! Its something taken from another list!

Surely what we should be wanting is distinct Ork units that perform decently, not relying on Imperial tanks to prop up the list for us?


Model-wise, yes, Ork players should be able to use any vehicle model they like as the basis for their Waguns and Trukks (imagine a wrecked Hammerhead with huge monster trukk wheels grafted on!). From a rules point-of-view, though, there's a huge problem with saying to Ork players that they need to go out and buy everyone else's codex just so they have access to the rules for their available vehicles.

Like I said in another thread, imagine the outrage that would be caused if the Space Marine Codex only had Rhinos and Land Raiders in it, and the Marine players had to go out and buy Imperial Armour 1, 2 and 3 just to get the rules for Predators, Whirlwinds and Vindicators.

Tim

I'll save the bulk of the comments on this for your thread and your new dex, but for the most part I'd be OK with it, so long as their effectiveness doesn't go down without serious compensation elsewhere.

I mean, right now if I field a non KoS army it's Deathskullz with 3 Ordinance Tanks. I've got a Basalisk, Leman Russ, and a Demolisher. That's indirect ordinance, and two AV14 tanks, one that's long range and one of which carries a S10 AP2 gun - which given our current shooting abilities is essential for the army to compete.

I don't see it as a huge problem of having to get other dex's. Worst comes to worst they could put the available tanks in the Ork Dex with adjusted points costs.

Heretic12
08-11-2006, 21:29
As it stands Orks are the corner stone of 40k, with out Orks its game over. Like reddaneks said, we cant take the ooniverse but we sure as hell can make sure you cant either. 40k as with all warhammer is meant to be Perpetual War and if one side gains a heavy advantage then the end might come. There will never be a boss better then Ghaz in fluff terms because if there was Orks would take the ooniverse and make slaves out of you puny Umies and Panzees.

Looting is a structure point for ork civilizations, everything we get is taken from out enemys. Every now and then we find a tank thats been over run when it was dissabled, Now meks do luv scrap and luv cutting things apart but every mek knows if it makes a loud boom no point in scrapping the whole thing, just make it louder.

All Orks need to become a true 40k army (Easy to piece together and make work) is add a basic Ork tank. And add afew Kreate a Klan rules like the Umies and Beakies got. Then orks are set.

On a last note, Ork players will never agree that Orks are balanced, underpowered, gimped, overpowered. We are a race filled with animosity, we will fight each other for any reason we can think of. It doesnt stop at the TT it falls into everything we do. Welcome to the world of green folks.

Helicon_One
08-11-2006, 22:34
I mean, right now if I field a non KoS army it's Deathskullz with 3 Ordinance Tanks. I've got a Basalisk, Leman Russ, and a Demolisher. That's indirect ordinance, and two AV14 tanks, one that's long range and one of which carries a S10 AP2 gun - which given our current shooting abilities is essential for the army to compete.
My list doesn't give you a Demolisher Cannon equivalent (well, maybe a Zzap Gunn), but everything else is more or less covered.


I don't see it as a huge problem of having to get other dex's. Worst comes to worst they could put the available tanks in the Ork Dex with adjusted points costs.
You run into problems fitting it into a set page limit then, though. In an 80-page 'dex, are you really going to take up 4 or 6 or even more pages (depending on, for example whether you try to fit in Tau vehicles as suggested earlier) with printing all the available Looted options, and what are you going to drop to make room for it?

Tim

Tiff
08-11-2006, 22:55
WARCRAFT ORKS

Just getting your attention, for those of you familar with Warcraft then you will know that the spin on Orks is quite different from the usual fantasy cliche.

Warcraft Orks are honourable, noble, intellegent and show mercy, but are still brutal fighters. I would like to see this tried in a slight way, as I personally find the orks a little trying. Although I really do like the race. :p


Just an idea

Sepharen
09-11-2006, 00:33
WARCRAFT ORKS

Just getting your attention, for those of you familar with Warcraft then you will know that the spin on Orks is quite different from the usual fantasy cliche.

Warcraft Orks are honourable, noble, intellegent and show mercy, but are still brutal fighters. I would like to see this tried in a slight way, as I personally find the orks a little trying. Although I really do like the race. :p


Just an idea

40K orks already show a number of those characteristics.

Honour... well, not really.
Nobility: it's where the word nob came from. Ork nobility is a lot more feudal, admittedly. The power goes to the strong and stays there until someone bashes them.
Intelligence. Again, not really, but for all their simple ways orks have a capacity for being cunning that makes up for their poor english and math skills.

Mercy is an odd one; rare but possible. Ghazkull allowed Yarrick to escape, as he realised that a good enemy is both hard to find and incredibly valuable to the orks. It could be seen as mercy, intelligence, or honour.

Or just an ork wanting another great scrap like he had on Armageddon. It can be hard to tell, all in all.

I think that orks do have their place in the 40K universe, just that it's not that well advertised. It is my fervent hope that the next main edition of the game will see Orks and Guardsmen facing each other in the introductory game box.

Curufew
09-11-2006, 01:48
Which is quite impossible as GW would want SM to be in that

Sepharen
09-11-2006, 04:47
Which is quite impossible as GW would want SM to be in that

Sadly true, but I can still dream.

Hobgoblyn
09-11-2006, 09:21
I don't think it is fair to call Orks ultimate bad guys unless you are entirely looking from an Imperial Guard or Space Marine point of few. Really, the Imperium is arguably more blatantly evil than the Orks.

Orks are basically a lot like humans with the exception that they are more light-hearted, comical, love combat and are hardly intellectual. (Though when the Orks can master technologies better and easier than the humans, it may not be fair to call them 'stupid')

If you compare to the Tyrnids, Chaos, or Necrons, Orks could actually be considered one of the good guys. Because you know the Orkish horde will fight these forces with even more vigor than the human and don't seem nearly as corruptable as many humans have proven to be.

And really, with the various clans and various sects (Pirates, Savage, etc.) it is really difficult to put a strong label on them except for being numerous and combative. Even though the rules don't support it, there is plenty of reason to suspect that the race should show all the diversity they do in Fantasy, it is just GW was too lazy in 40K to make a new 'Ork' subrace with 1-3 small statistical point changes to represent this. But, regardless, overall they are a varied and adaptable race.

As for in-game statistics? Well, I think it is true that they just all around suck in this regard. As cool as they might be they cannot be claimed to be a Horde army, because their relatively high base model cost (excluding Gretchin) means that most armies can out-horde them. They can't be claimed to be a close-combat army because, with their I of 2 and no save, most armies out close combat them. And certainly their BS of 2 means they aren't a shooty army. They don't get many vehicles and all the ones they get suck enough for normal fire to take them out. Their cool weapons and anything else remotely competitive for them is written with rules to make it backfire on you for using it, rules that have pretty much been removed from all other races.

I guess one could claim them to be a fairly middle-ground army that isn't really overspecialized in anything, but it is clear from their stats that they are meant to be close-combat fighters even if half the armies in the game have been built up to excel in close combat well above any Orkish model or have been given close-combat units that tear through an equal point-value of Orcs with an ease that is heart-breaking for any Ork player to face. This is overlooking the fact that all other units meant to do close combat are given fleet-of-foot or jumppacks fairly universally and better saves on top of this. In short, Orks can't even survive to get into close combat much less win it.

So... yeah... background/fluff/storywise Orks are a cool fairly neutral destructive force. Statistically, they are little more than the worst army you can try to play in 40K (maybe Imperial Guard are worse... it is hard to say).

Brimstone
09-11-2006, 09:47
This thread has some excellent discussion on the nature of Orks.

There has been some spam though which I've deleted, please do not spoil this thread as I'll not be happy.

The Warseer Inquisition

fwacho
09-11-2006, 10:16
Some metnioned looted vehilces.
Orks need to really get some serious loota action in thier next codex. I don't mind buying another amies codex for the stats (and it's a selling point for GW) even eldar technology shoudl loose it's sacredness to some degree. The next codex needs to be all about insane amounts of options. both looted and clan traits (probably done IG style)

I paritcually want to see the results of their action aginast the tyranids in Charcadon come to fruition in the codex, Biorks, anyone? (remember that cruiser pakced with genestealers sent by the inquisition into ork space)

One last thing... ork needa humor factor built in. ome body needs to get a lugh in this universe and orks seem best equipedt o do it. I would love using highly powered but unreliable weaponry (any ork would) i gladly take the 'OOPS factor" for extra power. there's nothing to make a game interesting like friendly fire.

ashc
09-11-2006, 10:42
Eblis_Dead_Forever and Helicon_One get my votes for ideas. More unique Orky things, less stuff used as crutches from other codexes, and cheaper boys to bulk da horde out.

I like basic boys as they are, and if you decreased the points cost then you can take more :evilgrin:

Ash

gitburna
09-11-2006, 10:46
Well, the mentality of orks is they dont care if they win or lose as long as they have a good scrap,and thats the way i play them. I dont get pannelled very often, theres usually an element of each. Theres no other army which fights in such a way except Khorne Berzerkers or possibly Slaanesh. The secret is that its a *good scrap* not just getting shot to hell, not stomping all over weedy gits without breaking a sweat, the fight has to be good and hard. They're punks,barbarians,madmax nomads and hooligans combined into one. They're easyto convert and individualise, they're darkly humourous in a way i cant describe, definitely not like Jack Nicholsons Joker, in fact i cant think offhand of a movie character which would sum them up like theres not really any other race which has any kind of humour attached to them. Doh, got to go without finishing, never mind.

Bjorn Stormwolf
09-11-2006, 10:56
I always used to like the 'random' element of being an Ork Warlord. Back in the day of RT, rolling up Kustom weapons before the game was a hoot, often leaving your general with either a shooty gun-o-death or wimpy gun-o-dribble. Obviously that game mechanic is dead and gone but i would like to see the random element re-introduced a little, I have always felt an Ork army should be one that either wins big or loses big!

I'll admit this might not make a competitive or fair tournament list, but it sure would be fun... (which is the point, isn't it?)

jubilex
09-11-2006, 10:59
There are so many spores in here i'm getting hayfever. Have you orkies checked out deversniks short story in "rate peoples fluff" in the background section? It's very good though it takes a grimmer view than most of you.
More on topic, the orks should have their own stuff, the looted vehicles do take away from the orkishness of the army, though I do accept it is fluffy. It makes them look inept. They need that basilisk to be effective and thats not right. Imo, they should have something along the lines of a defiler (stompa). It would be an interesting link from cybork to kan to dread to stompa in the army. In a similar way to orks getting bigger the more they fight.
The orks are not right imo, all that worries me about them is massed big shoota fire, not the close combat capacity and that can't be right.

Getz
09-11-2006, 11:48
The main problem i see for orks in the 40k game is that GW seem to consentrate on marines vs chaos marines which doesnt happen very often, where in reality most battles in the 40k universe is between imperial guard and orks. There for GW should consentrate more on the guard and orks as the main armies in 40k, but i suppose that wouldnt bring in the money, would it.

On the Contrary, Orks and Guard are two of the most expensive armies to collect... So much stuff needed...

To Improve Orks I'd be inclined to push the average initiative of the army up to 3. Also, perhaps drop the cost of the boyz by a point or two.

However, I also think the List could really do with the FW Gunwagon rules being made available as a transport option, possibly the inclusion of Gun Trucks from the Kos list and I'd go so far as to create a proper Ork Battletank too. Looking at the actual weapons, Kustom Mega Blastas should stop damaging vehicles, although they should prbably cost a bit more as a result and Kannons could do with being Rng 48 too. These options should make Orky firesupport much more effective whilst not fiddling too much with the basic stats, and with better firesupport the basic lads will have a much happier time getting stuck in in HtH.

Voodoo Boyz
09-11-2006, 12:11
Honestly, give us options.

Make Shoota Boyz, Flash Gitz, and Tankbustas have a Huntas Profile (WS3, BS3, S3, T4, A1, I2, etc.)
Keep sluggas as-is, but give us better defensive options. KFF's or Grots providing a 4+ Cover save instead of 5+ would do a whole lot to help out. As the current system works a T3 4+ save model is much more survivable than a T4 6+ save model.

Giving us some decent anti-tank would work out nice too. Take away the 0-1 restrictions on Battlewagons and Looted Vehicles and give us the Kult of Speed vehicle upgrades in the new dex.

If we don't get a beef up in shooting then we're going to need ways to get into CC faster and I'd like to see options for a Kult of Speed army in the new dex.

And some units with armor saves would be nice. If a guardian is 5+ saves normally but gets a 3+ when put on a Jetbike, then we should get something similar.

gitburna
09-11-2006, 13:12
i think that orks will get a good range of vehicles in the next codex because so much of their recent [ie since 3rd edition] background has talked about how they have captured a load of imperial tank factories.

Armageddon, Skar-uz sector and Mordakka Prime forgeworld during da Green Kroosade, and the Tesla Prime forgeworld that the Hive Fleet Leviathan left for the orks all packed with tank factories which will go a long way to giving orks a "reason" to have big massed produced vehicles.

I agree that "getting rid" of looted vehicles would be nice. I have some scratch built old epic style tanks which i "Count as" looted leman russ etc but it'd feel better to have to do this the other way round with a looted Russ "Counting as" a Goff Lungbusta for instance.

It'd be nice to have kannonz and lobbas slightly buffed up as well, not least because they would in theory be the main weapons on any orky tank.Zzap guns feel a little bit mekboyish rather than simple and effective and causing big booms.

gitburna
09-11-2006, 13:17
And some units with armor saves would be nice. If a guardian is 5+ saves normally but gets a 3+ when put on a Jetbike, then we should get something similar.
Warbikes should get to keep the pollution cover cos it really helps the boyz behind but i agree [for once!] that warbikes themselves are fragile and weakand this sadly means that they arent that useful afterall. A 4+ armour would go a long way. At least they'd usually have to shoot a more powerful weapon at you to guarantee killing you, heavybolters/autocannons/krak grenades/missile pods/ordnance etc

jubilex
09-11-2006, 13:35
We have gone a little off topic here, but most of the points are valid. I'm not an ork player (chaos and eldar) so I hope I can be a bit of a devils advocate here. The biggest problem with them is I always believe they will reach my lines with too little to survive a counter assault. To remedy this, they either need to be faster or more survivable. I would go toward the latter. How about something like this.
A cover save (a la bikes) due to pollution for everybody? 6+, probably.
Especially polluting vehicles with multiple use smoke launchers that downgrade hits, like holo fields?
An expensive but unreliable wargear item that recreates night fight conditions? Again pollution based.
Just a few ideas, no great thought put tbh.

gitburna
09-11-2006, 14:05
How about a natural 6+ invulnerable save for orks? The background reason for this would be explained in a variety of ways all combined together

The natural hardiness combined with pollution cover from the filthy vehicles, grot bullet screens, flesh riveted armour plates and kustom forcefield technology carried by meks. Its nothing overpowering or list breaking yet at the same time its something thats unique and will actually save a few orks without swallowing up lots of points.

J/G

gitburna
09-11-2006, 16:29
IAn Ork, it is said in the Ork slavers' background, would kill a human captive if left alone with that human as that Ork's constant physical assaults took their toll. While the slave may die abused and terrified by the Ork, the Ork itself may find the whole business amusing. Ork slavers, by contrast, have learned how to operationally condition captives through the careful application of violence. Ork Docs have figured out how to use violence to fix other Orks, perhaps as a result of the sadism that drives their medical researches. Ork Mekz apply the brute force principle to engineering, mastering the art of force projectors like the zzap gun, the mega-blasta, and power fields.

Collectively Orks love jarring recoil and loud explosions, loud noises, fast speed, and violent action. Their incredibly tough bodies need extremes of sensation for the Orkish brain to produce opiate-equivalents. So of course an Ork in a warzone is going to be flourishing where human soldiers suffer breakdowns from post-traumatic stress disorders.

Some of the best background I read on Orks came out around the time of the Ork and Armageddon codexes.It was written by Dan Abnett and covered the BloodAxes,Goffs and Deathskulls and were great little bits combined with Andy Chambers tactical/background commentaries on those particular clanz.

Essentially the stories revolved around a deathskull looting a crashed imperial bomber, a space marine commander describing how he dreaded fighting Blood Axes more than any other force and an imperial platoon getting ambushed by Goffs in a jungle environment with an excellent line that went something like "My voxcoder has finally deciphered the meaning of the incessant ork chant. 'Fight to live. Live to fight.' Now i can do neither"

I'd say that while the overall output of background for the orks in the past 8 years has been pretty low, its been perfect in tone and paints a great picture. The ork background isnt only to be found in places that you'd expect :- Theres a brilliant piece talking about Drazhar master of blades in the dark eldar codex which has a great feel to it.

Nurglitch also made reference to the orks thriving in a battle situation and this likens them to Slaanesh and Eldar - In particular i think that the background for the Slaaneshi champion whose name i forget has some parallels with orky nature. The fact he loves to fight and fights harder the better the opponent is. Thats not to say that orks are into viciousness and cruelty and all that usual slaaneshi stuff.. Theres a difference to the way an ork would chop someones head off and the way a slaaneshi would do it, and how they each would feel after doing it.

Flatline
09-11-2006, 21:26
I'd like to thank everyone for their contributions so far. We have wandered a little from my original topic on a couple of occassions in to the realms of table top rules. There are a couple of other threads that have covered this in some depth so I'd prefer it we could stick to talking about the ork race in general rather than rules, etc. :)

To continue where I left off earlier - I see orks as being the ultimate antagonists. They have a reason to fight anyone, anytime, anywhere. You don't need a complicated story to make orks fight! In fact I think that the real problem orks have is that they are far too keen on fighting.

Think about it - someone has to make the trukks, buggies, bikes, shootas, bullets, fuel, houses, etc. Someone has to find enough food and drink to support an ork colony. Now I have trouble seeing your average boy being keen on doing these things. So who does all the work? Is it the grots? Surely they would goof off at every opportunity? Do the orks have hordes of slaves? Again I don't see orks keeping prisoners for very long, simply because they wouldn't care for them very well and the poor sods would gradually die off.

So how does ork society (if we can all it that) work? I can accept that there will be a certain level of looting going on where the orks take what they need from the other races, but that can't support a whole ork race. Based on the background I have read it seems that there has to be some sort of support infrastructure built into the orky meta-race (orks, grots, squigs, etc) at a genetic level.

I don't see orks having the right mentality for farming. Staying in one place for months and years at a time to watch your food grow just isn't the orky way. So orks must have a plentiful food supply that is mobile and doesn't need any looking after. Please welcome, if you will, the humble squig.

The only way I can see the ork ecology working is by hunting. Orks have the right mind set for hunting. They get to chase something about, kill it and then they get to eat. Simple and direct, just like the orks. This is where the squigs come in. I picture a whole range of these creatures, ranging from tiny little critters to great hulking brutes like the squiggoth, forming a complete food chain. The little ones eat bugs and offal. The bigger ones eat the little ones and the orks eat what they can kill. :)

Of course this still doesn't answer the question about who does the rest of the work. This is really not addressed in any background stuff I have seen. What we do know is that some orks are born with innate specialist skills, such as meks, doks and the like. Maybe the ork racial consciousness kicks in during times of need. Say the orks need a workshop for the mek. The mek will start the building work. As he works nearby boyz will drift over and start helping, not really sure why they are doing it, but knowing that it's the 'right' thing to be doing.

OK. This has been a bit of a stream of consciousness from me, so I'm going to shut up now. I'd just like to finish with this: I think it is important that the new codex gives the orks a strong indentity. I was very disappointed by the new warhammer army book, as the 'background' simply consisted of a list of warbosses and places they'd trashed. We all know orks like fight. Tell us something we didn't know.

Tastyfish
09-11-2006, 22:29
The Orks logistics is made simplier by them being able to photosynthesise (like coral does, another symbiotic organism a bit like Orks are), hunting is probably pretty common but I still think a fair bit of farming is done - however this is the domain of the Oddboyz (like Meks and Brewwas). A normal ork really can't see the appeal in watching mushrooms grow in the drops, however some are completely facinated by it and 'farm'/collect them (probably a exagerration of the Death Skull tendancy - less loota, more filthy obsessive compulsive 'shroom collecting hobork)

Flatline
10-11-2006, 12:48
I'd forgotten about the fungus. I'm still not really sure I can see an ork actually farming the stuff though. Brew boyz would certainly harvest it but I don't see them putting a lot of effort into making it grow in the first place.

Are orks actually able to photosynthesise? I don't remember reading that. I know the alge is what gives them the green skin, but do the orks gain a useful level of sustanence from this?

Nurglich mentioned steam punk. I think this is probably pretty close to orkish technology. It's crude and simplistic but pretty effective. I would also expect an orkish device to make absolutely no allowances for the safety of the user. Look at farming machines from the 1900's. They had uncovered belt drives, open gears and blades without any safety guards. That's how I see ork technology.

Getz
10-11-2006, 13:01
Think about it - someone has to make the trukks, buggies, bikes, shootas, bullets, fuel, houses, etc. Someone has to find enough food and drink to support an ork colony. Now I have trouble seeing your average boy being keen on doing these things. So who does all the work? Is it the grots? Surely they would goof off at every opportunity? Do the orks have hordes of slaves? Again I don't see orks keeping prisoners for very long, simply because they wouldn't care for them very well and the poor sods would gradually die off.


If memory serves me right, all the sumboyz, brewboyz, diggaboyz and the like all grab their favourite choppa andget stuck in when there's a fight in the offing, so in answer to the question, where's the Orky Infastructure? They're enjoying a good scrap with the rest of the ladz.

I imagine it as being abit like the wild frontier... Only instead of the marshal riding into town and rounding up a Posse, the Warboss shows up and rounds up a couple of mobs of boyz for a good krumpin'...

Gimp
10-11-2006, 14:14
I think orks fill in the COMIC RELIEF race.

Zzarchov
10-11-2006, 14:39
I would hearily disagree with Nurglitch, while that is a valid sci-fi gap to fill, that would then leave the current ork use empty.

Orks are (Visually) The post-apocalyptic army. They are Mad Max personified.

Every army has a Market segment they are aimed at (though once someone starts playing the game and getting into the background that becomes blurry for "second" armies). Tau were designed to target the Anime crowd for example, Orks are geared up for some low tech mayhem in the name of Lord Humungous (who is often spoofed with ork warbosses).

MaxORK
10-11-2006, 15:17
The need to slot every single thing into a column or statistic is such an ’American’ thing...But I want to join in because I love my Orks. :D

The whole Mad Max thing I definitely disagree with. Sure enough they have buggies, but that’s just because some **** couldn't be arsed to mould any different vehicles for them! :(

Orks are such a hard race to define, maybe that is the point of them. They are the most numerous race in 40K but they don't have a label.
They are like a disease, which once encountered on a planet must be annihilated with extreme prejudice otherwise they grow into something that is nigh on unstoppable!

...So there you go they are the ultimate pests, they are a disease...Like rats! :evilgrin:

...Although rats do serve a purpose, maybe Orks serve a galactic purpose waiting to be revealed!

Jammybee
10-11-2006, 15:26
I think that orks are the 'C/C race that gives your opponent more than 1/2 rounds of shooting'

Although I can feel a 'Fleet of waaargh' rule coming on next codex :P

Tastyfish
10-11-2006, 15:41
I think orks fill in the COMIC RELIEF race.

But again they don't have the monopoly here, the whole universe is filled with a sort of dark humour ("After these rituals are complete, you may seek to awaken the spirit by depressing the large panel marked 'ON'", 'Who was that guy?' 'Not sure, but I think the soldiers said something about following Slaanesh, so thats probably him'". It doesn't need a slapstick race, its this sort of thing that puts them more out of place than any complaints leveled at the Tau.

They do need a set archetype and a definite playstyle that seperates them from the other races - not having that is exactly why we've got this thread in the first place, they are left being second best to everyone else and are difficult to update as there is a lack of focus.

McBain006
10-11-2006, 16:45
The main reason I've always liked Orks was always the sheer random factors that made them well...Orky :D

The Orks place in 40K should be that of the Army where you never know quite what you're going to get when you face them. The new Codex needs to give the Orks lots of options and bring back some of the powerful but random rules and weapons that makes them Orky!

Nothing can lighten up a game like making that Roll for your Supa-Kombi-Shoota-Blasta-Whateva... it could turn that Land Raider into a lump of melted metal... or leave the Ork with a few bits of wire, the trigger, and a bemused look on his face.... and possibly less limbs than he started with :D

Zzarchov
10-11-2006, 22:45
Ah, MaxORK you've got it all wrong.

The Niche (as I said) doesn't apply once you really get into the back ground.

The visual look is targetted at New players. The Tau are NOTHING like how battles are fought in Anime, or any Anime society I know of.

But Visually, a new player at seeing the miniatures for the first time and knowing nothing of 40k would see them and say "These are Anime miniatures".


Orks are non-uniform nutters wielding all kinds of crude weaponry, driving around on dune buggies, Bikes, trucks and other Jalopies , including broken down looking, battle damaged vehicles (looted tanks). Lets not even get into the Gyrocopters straight out of Road Warrior...

Ever since Gorka-Morka orks have been targeting the post-apocalypse loving new player.

Once you get into the fluff and actual background they are nothing like the humans in Mad Max,




And its not an American thing to categorize, Its a Marketing thing. Once you get an education in Marketing you start to see how blatant some things are.

Minister
10-11-2006, 22:53
But again they don't have the monopoly here, the whole universe is filled with a sort of dark humour ("After these rituals are complete, you may seek to awaken the spirit by depressing the large panel marked 'ON'", 'Who was that guy?'

“Strike the first rune upon the engine’s casing employing the chosen wrench. Its tip should be anointed with the oil of engineering using the proper incantation when the auspices are correct.
Strike the second rune upon the engine’s casing employing the arc-tip of the power driver.
If the second rune is not good, a third rune may be struck in a manner like unto the first. This is done according to the true ritual laid down by Scotti the Enginseer.
A libation should be offered.
If this sequence is properly observed the engines may be brought to full activation by depressing the large panel marked ‘ON’.”
-Runic Spaceflight - An Introduction
-Naval Flight Manual W110E

dneff23
11-11-2006, 00:42
I agree. Orks have a definite Mad Max feel to the army....especially Speed Freaks. That is one of the reasons I love Speed Freaks.

newpaintbrush
11-11-2006, 06:00
I have been following the discussions on what the new orks should be like with some interest and one thing that has cropped up is a few times - what should the ork be good at? I think this needs to be expanded to include where do orks fit into the 40k universe?

It has been said that the orks do not have niche to call their own in 40k. other armies are far better at shooting (guard, tau, marines). Other armies are more mobile (tau, eldar). Quite a lot of armies are better at h2h (chaos, nids, eldar) and armies can field bigger hordes (guard, nids, L&D).

Similarly the orks don't seem to have a defining characteristic in 40k. They are not the great xenos threat (nids) nor the gerat enemy of mankind (chaos). Eldar are enigmatic and elite. The tau are high tech and the good guys.

So what should the orks be like and what should they be good at?

My opinion is that the orks are simplistic (note that doesn't necessarily mean stupid) and brutal. They operate mostly on instinct and tend to take the most direct approach to a problem. I see their technology being crude but functional. It will never be pretty to look at and will almost certainly be a health and safety nightmare, but hey, it works!

Orks seem to have very little concept of pain and so don't fear it. Coupled with the orks lack of deep thought and you have a race that functions on impluse. They do stuff cause it's fun, or because they wanted to see what happened. No ork would every worry about consequences until they happened and even then he'd probably just accept it.

Example - an ork finds a big lever. He wonders what it does. He pulls the lever. A huge blade slices the ork's arm off. The ork goes "Whoops!" picks his arm up and goes looking for the dok.

As far as the rest of the 40k universe is concerned I think orks should be a bit like vermin. They get everywhere. They are almost impossible to get rid of and they are a constant nuisence (always looking for a fight). They are not normally a big threat as long as you keep on top of them. Leave them alone for a year or so and you will find a full scale ork community. Leave them long enough and the orks will build up to the point that a Waaagh! will occur.

Just some thoughts.
Flatline.

I disagree.

"My opinion is that the orks are simplistic (note that doesn't necessarily mean stupid) and brutal. They operate mostly on instinct and tend to take the most direct approach to a problem. I see their technology being crude but functional. It will never be pretty to look at and will almost certainly be a health and safety nightmare, but hey, it works!"

The Ork mentality is not "It isn't pretty, it's a health and safety nightmare, but it works!". It is just that Orks have a whole different set of priorities than humans do. Orks skip all that melodrama; it's just "It works." That's the bottom line.

The problem is that a lot of people try to say "This is how an Ork thinks. This is the Ork mentality. Orks don't like complexity. Orks don't like good spelling. Orks don't like . . . " But that is absolutely incorrect, I believe. Orks don't care about UNNECESSARY complexity. Are tellyportas complex? Are Gargants complex? Obviously!

"Orks seem to have very little concept of pain and so don't fear it. Coupled with the orks lack of deep thought and you have a race that functions on impluse. They do stuff cause it's fun, or because they wanted to see what happened."

No. Orks understand and feel pain. It is their REACTION that is different. A human will be fighting a Tyranid, and get an arm lopped off. The human rolls around saying "agh, my arm!", and then he gets eaten. The ork, on the other hand, just grabs a spare weapon with his off hand and swings again.

Orks do not "lack deep thought". They just don't assign the same priorities to things that humans do. Similarly, Orks do not "do stuff cause it's fun or because they wanted to see what happened." Orks just spend a lot less time dithering and debating, and going out and DOING stuff.

" No ork would every worry about consequences until they happened and even then he'd probably just accept it."

Complete and utter nonsense. You've been listening to 2nd edition Ork players, or maybe Warhammer Orc players. ORKS do not spend a lot of time WORRYING about consequences. They UNDERSTAND consequences, but usually do NOT CARE.

For example, if an Ork understands that there's going to be a human ambush up ahead, the Ork will probably just charge ahead, because the Ork wants to get into combat. For some weird reason, humans think this is "stupid" of the Ork, because the Ork might get shot. The Ork thinks it is "smart", though, because the Ork knows that if he turns around, he won't get the chance to beat up on some humans.

If an Ork understands a planet is going to be virus bombed, though, the Ork will look for shelter, because the Ork is not stupid.

"Example - an ork finds a big lever. He wonders what it does. He pulls the lever. A huge blade slices the ork's arm off. The ork goes "Whoops!" picks his arm up and goes looking for the dok."

Completely wrong. Orks do not go around pulling random levers. They are not idiots. It is far more likely that an Ork will be walking around, see a lever sticking out of something, break the lever off, beat something to death with it, and have that something for a snack - the practical approach, so to speak.

Orks are the great pragmatists of 40K. They don't have a lot of dead cultural weight on them. They aren't saddled with fear of the warp. They just go out and do stuff, and have a good time. And that's what Orks should be about.

Honestly, a lot of people try to say that Orks are stupid, or jolly idiots, or whatever. 2nd edition, sure, but they were really reinvented 3rd edition. New models, new look, new mentality. We're on 4th edition now, it's time for current edition Ork players to drop the kazoos and silly banners and pull some WAAAGH out.

jubilex
12-11-2006, 12:07
Sorry, flatline, I know you wanted background stuff and not tabletop, but i've been thinking about it and didn't want to have wasted my time.
Orks love a fight, think of the level of exitement when they are charging up to an opponent and the (fungal?) orgasmic rush of that brutal first contact. Then, asthe fight goes on and the ofks are busy stomping everything in sight, an almost sad reaction, that the fun might soon be over. But, then it all starts again as the triumphant orks find another source of fun and off they go.
How to represent this and give to orks a bit of a boost.
Basic boy s3 i3, take a waagh test. If sucessfull, gain furious assault. I think this would be quite balanced. What do you think?
To offset the first turn bombardment, you could have orky armies always have a fist turn night fight rule (based on dusk and dawn) due to the pollution put out by the army. Just some thoughts.

Nkari
12-11-2006, 14:20
Nurglitch ftw I say.. my exact vision of da orkses.. =)

Iracundus
12-11-2006, 15:23
There's a spectrum with Tau at one end being primarily shooting based, Tyranids at the other end being primarily close combat based, at least thematically. The Orks lean towards close combat but not to the same extent as the Tyranids, just as the Guard lean towards shooting but not as much as the Tau (IG infantry at least come with WS 3). Again I'm talking thematically as a whole race not individual armies, as you can build shooting Tyranid armies and Guard armies with warrior weapons.

I think the Orks should get lots of high rate of fire Assault weapons and explosive area effect weapons with mid to high Strength but with poor BS and AP value to keep balance. By poor AP I'm thinking AP6 or even none, such that even Guard and Guardians get to make the occasional save (why would any race bother giving their troops such poor armor if it didn't come into use?). Lots of wild shooting fits in with the Ork love of "More dakka" anyway, while the low AP or armor ignoring stuff should fall either into the realm of Ork close combat gear or more limited Mekboy gadgets.

Doesn't sound that radically different from now but more emphasis I think should be placed on the Orks' ranged weapons so that Orks aren't just Tyranid wannabes that just charge into close combat.

So in summary: A horde army that sprays a lot of shots so as to force a lot of armor saves while it steadily closes the distance to beat the enemy over the head with their choppas. A dash of the spice of randomness (without having it be too all or nothing) and you have the Orks.

Tastyfish
12-11-2006, 15:30
Its a lot more complicated than that I'd say, the IG will generally be packing a lot more firepower than the Tau - they are just a static firepower army wheras the Tau generally have less guns (and fewer heavy or special weapons) but will be usually more mobile and heavily armoured.

Marines sit squarely in the middle, capable of being modified to almost any style you choose and Tyranids have the fast horde close combat army compared to Chaos' elite armoured close combat army.

I'd put the orks inbetween them, with an emphasis on light vehicles in large numbers, a mix of light and heavy infantry rather than concentrating on the shooting side of things.

NeonDante
12-11-2006, 18:54
I think the Orks' place in 40K is as barbarians. They are the most feral, most agressive and warlike of the races, and should always be. Orks should be brutal and bloody, always raring for a fight with whoever crosses their path.

That said, there's plenty of room for a bit of humor with the Orks. They shouldn't be out and out clowns, but a bit of randomness is fine with me. The Orks don't mind taking dangerously souped up weapons into battle, and they aren't afraid of death. The Orks don't take themselves seriously, why should we?

In closing, the orks should always be looking for a fight and should be the scourge of the galaxy. Planets should live with ork infestations, fighting them a part of daily life, while ork WAAAGHs terrify whole sectors.

cailus
12-11-2006, 23:56
I think Nurglitch and Newpaintbrush some up Orks the best. They are the universe's great pragmatists.

As for "in game" I think that Orks are stuck in a rut. The blatant comical nature of 2nd ed Orks is clearly gone and that's probably a good thing, but it has removed their unpredictability in terms of game play as well as some pretty potent weaponry.

The army currently is mainly a footslogging assault force backed up by mobile and innaccurate firepower. Under the context of 4th edition, the former is a liability while the latter doesn't contribute all that much in the grand scheme of things.

There needs to be an extensive rethink of the Orks.

Voodoo Boyz
13-11-2006, 02:12
There's a spectrum with Tau at one end being primarily shooting based, Tyranids at the other end being primarily close combat based, at least thematically. The Orks lean towards close combat but not to the same extent as the Tyranids, just as the Guard lean towards shooting but not as much as the Tau (IG infantry at least come with WS 3). Again I'm talking thematically as a whole race not individual armies, as you can build shooting Tyranid armies and Guard armies with warrior weapons.

I think the Orks should get lots of high rate of fire Assault weapons and explosive area effect weapons with mid to high Strength but with poor BS and AP value to keep balance. By poor AP I'm thinking AP6 or even none, such that even Guard and Guardians get to make the occasional save (why would any race bother giving their troops such poor armor if it didn't come into use?). Lots of wild shooting fits in with the Ork love of "More dakka" anyway, while the low AP or armor ignoring stuff should fall either into the realm of Ork close combat gear or more limited Mekboy gadgets.

Doesn't sound that radically different from now but more emphasis I think should be placed on the Orks' ranged weapons so that Orks aren't just Tyranid wannabes that just charge into close combat.

So in summary: A horde army that sprays a lot of shots so as to force a lot of armor saves while it steadily closes the distance to beat the enemy over the head with their choppas. A dash of the spice of randomness (without having it be too all or nothing) and you have the Orks.

I'm sorry but no.

You can argue fluff and what not, but game wise Nids are very shooty, far more shooty than Orks could ever hope to be when you want to get into effectiveness or not (Which army has an easier time killing a Monolith?).

So if we're supposed to be more shooty than Nids fluff wise, I'd sure like to see that in the form of some S9 or S10 base guns, and BS3 on some units (Shoota Boyz/Flash Gitz).

cailus
13-11-2006, 03:24
Nids generally throw up less shots especially past 12 inches but the ones they have hurt big time. They generally have a better ballistic skill and weapons that often re-roll to wound or have high strength.

However Ork fire isn't as voluminous either. And it is expensive. For the price of 3 big shootas I can field 3 extra shoota boyz.

Flatline
13-11-2006, 11:47
I agree that Nids can throw out a high volume of potent firepower, but this is generally at short ranges (18" or less). The number of high strength, long range weapons they can take is highly limited. I would therefore expect the nids to win a firefight against the orks at short range, but it would be about even at long range.

I certainly think that the new ork codex should include more powerful, long ranged weaponry. Things like the shokk attack gun and the pulsa rokkit. And orky tanks!

Iracundus is right that the orks should be an army that leans towards assault more than shooting, but they should still have effective shooting. The reason for this is to counter the orks basic lack of speed. I would much sooner see the boyz gain more shooting than a fleet of foot rule.