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mortiferum
09-11-2006, 21:11
Well I just had the finer points of the Eldar Falcon explained to me and why they are now virtually indestructible, cheaper and better!

With all the upgrades I believe you end up with a Falcon a little over 200 points and for that handsome sum you get:

a skimmer - always a glancing hit
shaken always downgraded to stunned
immobilised - not destroyed but lands
opponent must roll two dice and pick the lowest

Its a tank thats likely to see the end of the game - perhaps not in one piece but likely to be still on the board and active in some way?

Now imagine three of them (though thats a different topic!)

This got me thinking has the Falcon become a much more resilent tank than the Monolith?

Your comments and assessment of the tanks is welcomed and appreciated

Morty

Kamin_Majere
09-11-2006, 21:28
Yeah in alot of ways the falcon is more survivable than the monolith, but in alot of ways the monolith is more survivable than the falcon.

Immune to S3-S7 weapons
Immune to shaking and stunning
Never gets extra dice rolled agasint it
Never has its armor modified
Can never have its weapons destroyed
If immobilized its still a Armor 14 pill box with unlimited transport size

templar1013
09-11-2006, 21:31
Hmm...i dont know. Falcon seems pretty darn tough, but in the only game I played against Necrons, I put LOTS of stuff into a monolith and it just kept coming.

Farseer
09-11-2006, 21:37
they're about the same, I would say it depends on the opposing army. Naturaly the Monolith would win though, if it could move more than 6"...

Karhedron
09-11-2006, 21:38
I usually find it best to ignore/avoid the Monolith and aim to phase the Necrons out. Another point where the Falcon scores over the Monolith is speed. 24" vs just 6" means that you can usually redoply the Falcon in a hurry to counter new threats.

EDIT:- Oops, Farseer beat me to the last point. Oh well, great minds think alike. ;)

Lancaster
09-11-2006, 21:38
Well, the four best tanks in the game are the LR, Monolith, Railhead, and Falcon.

However, all these tanks have a niche, and when played right, all are infinitly survivable

Lord of Skulls
09-11-2006, 21:44
And of them, the Land Raider is the most expensive, most fragile, and has the least firepower :rolleyes:

And yes, it seems that the Falcon has become, if not more, then at least just as tough as the Monolith.
As long as you get the first turn, or manage to deploy it completely out of sight, that is...

Farseer
09-11-2006, 21:48
EDIT:- Oops, Farseer beat me to the last point. Oh well, great minds think alike. ;)

You are so right!!!;) :D

Nehcrum
09-11-2006, 22:12
Actually, the Falcon has, due to the latest codex, lost a bit of it's place as the most resilient tank.

True, it is now a little harder to kill, due to vectored engines.
But the changes to spirit stone means it can no longer shrug off shaken hits.
Stunned hits gets downgraded to shaken, but that only happens on a 3 when glanced. The most common result, with the holofield, is a 1 or 2.
Before, the falcon had a 50% chance to ignore shaken, and could continue to act like nothing had happened, but with the new spiritstones, they stay shaken.
This means that it is now much easier to "neutralize" the falcon, and making it unable to fire, compared to how it used to be.

The vectored engines also means an increased cost, so it closes on the monolith for total cost.


IMO, the Falcon was the best tanks. It's dropped a bit, but is still a very capable tank high in the ranks. The monolith is not really a tank, but is some hard-to-define thing which is very hard to kill. The no-stun, no-shake thing compared to it's deep strike and Gauss Flux Arc means it has an enourmous potential for killing things.

Had it not been for the necron phase out rule, which in a way balances out the monolith advantages, I'd say the monolith is the best "vehicle-thing" in 40K.

Farseer
09-11-2006, 22:55
The vectored engines also means an increased cost, so it closes on the monolith for total cost.

Your wrong about that but I agree with everything else. Look at it this way : tha falcon is a 215 point capture unit. [(i use it with scatter, shuriken upgrade, vectored, spirit and holofield).( It would cost more if I would use Star cannon, but I changed that, because I usually hit 1-2 times in a round on 4+ so thats to poor shots for me:D )]

I never could kill anything with it, not even with guide, but its the perfect objetive capture unit, and it always did the job for me:)

Morgrad
09-11-2006, 23:09
Hmm.... interesting question.

I would say the Falcon is actually more survivable, because:

a) it basically can't be penetrated, so it never gets the 50/50 chance to die like a monolith (rarely) can.

b) with 2d6 pick the lower after the glance vs. just 1d6 for the 'lith, the falcon is much less likely to die from that single lucky hit than a monolith.

That being said, it is *much* easier to glance a falcon than it is to glance/penetrate a monolith and even glancing a falcon means that it probably isn't shooting at you this turn - so I think the monolith wins in the overall "how long am I useful for?" category, but the falcon wins in the "you blew up first, nyah nyah nyah nyah-nyah" category.

Monolith = useful longer
Falcon = lasts longer

Both = a pain in my tyranids' collective butts. :D

Nehcrum
10-11-2006, 00:01
Your wrong about that but I agree with everything else. Look at it this way : tha falcon is a 215 point capture unit. [(i use it with scatter, shuriken upgrade, vectored, spirit and holofield).( It would cost more if I would use Star cannon, but I changed that, because I usually hit 1-2 times in a round on 4+ so thats to poor shots for me:D )]

I never could kill anything with it, not even with guide, but its the perfect objetive capture unit, and it always did the job for me:)
Don't understand how you can argue against me saying that vectored engines makes the falcon more expensive....

I'm in no way saying it is bad, but it is a cost-increase.

And with the cost increase, and the changes to the spirit stone, IMO, overall it drops a bit in fighting ability. The vectored engines does not do THAT much for survivability IMO. It means it will avoid dying, but when being immobilized, it will be easy prey and will die soon afterwards.

I'm personally thinking about fielding my Falcon with underslung shuricannon and a shuricannon as the turretgun as well. Cheaper.

TheJrade
10-11-2006, 00:19
I'd say the the Monlith is superior. The Falcon is POSSIBLY slightly more difficult to destroy in a single shot, but a mere Autocannon or two can basically keep it from doing any damage the entire game. Add that to the Monolith's FAR superior firepower, unprecedented ability to character snipe and tons of special abilities and the Falcon falls far short.

The Fire Prism can match the Monolith in firepower, but again the Monolith's mound o' abilities make it pull slightly ahead in the race.

cailus
10-11-2006, 00:35
Well, the four best tanks in the game are the LR, Monolith, Railhead, and Falcon.

However, all these tanks have a niche, and when played right, all are infinitly survivable


By LR do you mean Land Raider or Leman Russ?

I'd say the Russ is better than the Land Raider simply because of it's big huge 72 inch range gun. It's side armour may only be 12 but if you use it as pill box that shouldn't be a problem (and most IG player do use them this way). The Land Raider is inefficient as a fire support tank especially when considering you can get two Predators for the cost of one Land Raider.

In the transport role it's not as good as the Land Raider Crusader which packs more appropriate weaponry and can carry more models (including 8 Terminators). But it's still a pricey bit of kit.

ss_cherubael
10-11-2006, 02:09
no one has metioned the baneblade.........
monolith wins hands down, its a pain in the rectum to kill and u end up phasing the crons out before you kill the lith. The falcon, you shoot it first turn and it dies, you dont manage to do that well ok just make sure it cant shoot for the next turn, then the next then the next, i would prefer to take something else for over 200pts thanks

jimback
10-11-2006, 05:02
I would say the monolith due to the fact most games my foe just killes my warriors rather than face it.

Col_Stone
10-11-2006, 05:21
I can mention the baneblade,
It's 700 Vps extra for the average marine army, and that's easier than stealing candy from a child

Anything with AT-ability and some mobility will win against the baneblade, landspeeder with assaultcannons can even take it head-on, that's very fitting

Trinary
10-11-2006, 05:53
As an Eldar player I would much rather fight a monolith... But then us Eldar players find the Monolith not much harder to destroy than a Rhino...

Of course for every other army out there... The monolith is a far more reliable sorce of carnage. While it can be "avoided" the monolith is more likely to be used in an effective points scoring manner (ie. killing models). Claiming an objective is good, but not reliable over all (since most of the time there is no objective to claim with it).

But look at the roll in each particular army... A falcon can survive, but will spend a lot of time not hitting, or not shooting. A monolith is slow, but will live and rescue troops often, as well as deepstriking. But then the monolith takes enough points to cost almost an entire turn of survivability for the Necrons (ie. phasing out). The Land raider (or at least its crusader variant) can deliver troops, and frankly for most will attract a lot of firepower that would otherwise hurt your infantry (ie. ordinance). The hammerhead has one hell of a gun, and some nice upgrades. But at the same time it becomes a crutch in the Tau battle line, and that can cost them dearly.

In terms of the frustrations from rolling dice, the falcon is definatly in the lead... But in terms of battle effectiveness, I think the monolith is best, followed by the hammerhead (though the fire prism tank can give it a run, especially in pairs). Over all, there is no such thing as an unfair tank, in my experience... All of them sacrifice tactical surviability and tactical variance for tactical stability.

Wraithlord
10-11-2006, 06:08
no one has metioned the baneblade.........
monolith wins hands down, its a pain in the rectum to kill and u end up phasing the crons out before you kill the lith. The falcon, you shoot it first turn and it dies, you dont manage to do that well ok just make sure it cant shoot for the next turn, then the next then the next, i would prefer to take something else for over 200pts thanks

If you mention the baneblade, why not mention its big brother, the good old stormblade. A even nastier piece of tank.

I vote for Monolith, itīs great shokking in the middle of the enemy units, shoot at everything and teleport a cc in.