PDA

View Full Version : The use of cybernetic organisms in WH 40K World



When Black Roses Bloom
04-07-2005, 06:50
I was having a talk yesterday with my roommate about the use of cybernetics in the world of WH. Besides the existence of the Dreadnought wich marely extends the life/torment of the wounded space/chaos space marine, the infinity circuit fo the Eldar Titans, the Spiritstones used to power the Wraithlord/Wraithguard there is no such thing as self willed cybernetic organisms, cyborgs if you prefer, or even ABC (Atomical/Biological/Chemical) Warriors, like the ones seen in the Judge Dredd comic. Is there any reason for that? Do the races lack the technology needed for such a thing? I doubt it. Perhaps the beliefs are such that they demand in some manner the use of humans eldar and other beings to die in the fields of battle? I will go for this one. What are your thoughts? Do you have any leads?

Pertinax
04-07-2005, 08:39
As far as I see it, cyborgification is either a blessing or a punishment.

In the Marine's case, it is a blessing. He is able to keep on fighting. But in the case of servitors, it is not really a self-willed thing. In some of the BL books, where you get a mention of the bridge of certain ships, then there is sometimes mention of a being that has become one with his ship. This is probably self-willed, and is probably the only case where it is.

Ork cybernetics could also be seen as a mixed blessing. An ork lives for fighting, and a huge power claw can help him do that. But a mono-wheel attached to his butt probably won't.

Just a few quick thoughts.

(And the ABC Warriors feature very briefly in Judge Dredd, they belong mainly to the series ABC Warriors - published in the same magazine as JD - 2000A.D. ;) )

When Black Roses Bloom
04-07-2005, 08:43
The ABC Warriors series kicked ass :P

I also read a briefing about the comic Titan: God-Machine, were the commander of the Titan crew "loged" in the behemoth just to find himslef a few battles later addicted to the use of the Titan like a drug user is addicted to Heroine for example.

Inquis. Jaeger
04-07-2005, 10:19
Cybernetic enhancements are used extensively by the the forces of the Imperium and Chaos. Eldar have Ghost Warriors/Wraithlords, Orks 'Bioniks' and Tau have some limited cybernetic meshing in their battlesuits and air caste.

I'll discuss the Imperium. They use extensive cybernetic, synapse, techno-arcana and bionic enhancement throughout all areas of society, from military wound replacement, servitor technology, life enhancement, data calculation, labour work, machine direction, military vehicle control etc. From Titan Princeps to Space Marine Dreadnoughts, to servitors to lexmechs to tech-priests and so on. The common elements all these have is the fusion of machine and man. This, according to the Imperial Creed (and the philosophy of the Omnissiah in particular), is blessed and all good, as the human will remains in control.

However, the use of robot warriors without human elements present beyond remote control is heresy. As a result of the downfall of the Golden Age, where the original human colonists of the galaxy were overthrown and cast down by the Iron Men they created to conquer and control. The Dark Age of Technology showed one thing - that technology is precious and must be tied to human will and not have a life and intelligence of its own.

Of course, now all this has descended into myth, fable and barely understood ritual. Even the tech-priests of Mars don't understand the idea of AI, and would view it as some kind of daemon or spirit to be apeased.

Read the Gaunt's Ghosts novel where they come across a huge cache of Iron Men that have been corrupted by Chaos.

EmperorsChamp01
04-07-2005, 10:46
The Imperium doesnt use AI because its dangerous. In AI the thing can control its self. SO if it wanted to Try to take over then i could. In the background area they go over why AI is bad why they use the Machine sprit.

And you go to remember that the Imperium hasnt created anything new in 10,000 years. They have just been using the same old stuff over and over agian.

Delicious Soy
04-07-2005, 13:38
And you go to remember that the Imperium hasnt created anything new in 10,000 years. They have just been using the same old stuff over and over agian.
Not entirely correct. On several occassions they have discovered the interactions between STC's and integrated them without actualy discovering the STC to do it, such as the predator annihilator. The Assault Cannon and advances in Plasma Weapons have also been made post heresy.

Pertinax
04-07-2005, 14:04
The Imperium doesnt use AI because its dangerous. In AI the thing can control its self. SO if it wanted to Try to take over then i could. In the background area they go over why AI is bad why they use the Machine sprit.

Can't the MS control things when the crew can't?

Angelus Mortis
04-07-2005, 14:04
I can think of a few examples myself. Theres the use of bionics, which in itself is the cybernetic, as it is the integration of man and machine. Then you have Servitors, Servo Skulls, Cyber Ravens, Cherubs, Arco-Flagellants, the entire Necron race, Cyborks, Big Meks, Pentient Engines, Rubric Marines, a huge amount of the Ministorium (a lot of the servants have cybernetic augmentation to better fullfil their duties as Leximechanics), and the mother of all cyber-nuts, the Adeptus Mechanicus. I'm not quite sure how you could of missed all the cybernetic stuff that fills the 40k universe.

Falkus
04-07-2005, 16:48
Tau have some limited cybernetic meshing in their battlesuits and air caste.

They can also replace missing limbs and organs with cybernetic replacements as well, and hardwire certain devices into themselves.

When Black Roses Bloom
05-07-2005, 03:40
I'm not quite sure how you could of missed all the cybernetic stuff that fills the 40k universe.

I am talking about the use of robots, either self willed or controlled by marines/orks/eldar/tau and so forth. I am not talking only for machines that resemble Terminator: The Movie. Neither for the replacements that the space marines aply to themselves. And yes, there are many things that could not be ignored, yet again the lack of battles depending exclusively to the use of robots/automatons cannot be ignored.

I also read somewere that the Iron Hands chapter, remove their right hand upon entering the chapter's ranks, and they try to find (or used to try) to replace every living organ on their bodies lost due battle wounds, lost limbs and such (similar to the replacements of the Iron Warriors upon the Chaotic mutations) with mechanical parts (including their brains), believing that the flesh fails and the machine does not.

Khaine's Messenger
05-07-2005, 04:03
Besides the existence of the Dreadnought wich marely extends the life/torment of the wounded space/chaos space marine, the infinity circuit fo the Eldar Titans, the Spiritstones used to power the Wraithlord/Wraithguard there is no such thing as self willed cybernetic organisms, cyborgs if you prefer, or even ABC (Atomical/Biological/Chemical) Warriors, like the ones seen in the Judge Dredd comic.

Well, you could build a long list of "robots" and "machine intelligences," but by and large they're all special cases and dusty subsets of the overal technological prowess of most races...because, of course, on one hand, you have thematics punting the whole "visceral combat" angle about, and on the other, you've got the whole "wetware" angle that seems prevalent throughout 40k. So it does clash a little with the thematics...apart from Necrons, who probably aren't really all that self-willed in any case. Beyond Lords, and even that's a little questionable because even the flavor text for Necrons is usually not from a Necron's perspective.


Perhaps the beliefs are such that they demand in some manner the use of humans eldar and other beings to die in the fields of battle?

Well...human life is considered to be cheap in 40k, and you don't have to invest your tech base in maintaining a mostly self-healing bag of meat as much as you'd have to invest in parts, materiel, and maintenance for a machine intelligence. Orks are born warriors, so they'd not see any real point to it, as there are already lots of boyz. The Eldar don't really have much excuse for avoiding the use of proxy warriors, but then you run into the issue of thematics again....

ntin
05-07-2005, 04:16
The Ironmen were destroyed after the Heresy because they sided with Horus, even those who still were loyal to the Emperor were destroyed as well with much protest with the Machine Cult. One planet of Ironmen survived but it was destroyed durring Lord Solar military campain. After the Heresy the use of AI was banned and that is why the Imperium uses Servitors, there were Dreadnought sized robots but they were phased out in the fluff.

Eldar are to natural to have the need for robots , the closests thing would be some sort of wraith bone construct that does certain tasks like cleaning or farming.

Tau are the only ones that use a real "Robot" like intellegence but it is still limited in what it can do.

typhus22
05-07-2005, 05:25
didnt the imperial guard use to use robots? i could have sworn there were these mech warrior tpye bots used in both 40k and epic back in the early 90s.

Inquis. Jaeger
05-07-2005, 09:07
The Ironmen were destroyed after the Heresy because they sided with Horus, even those who still were loyal to the Emperor were destroyed as well with much protest with the Machine Cult. One planet of Ironmen survived but it was destroyed durring Lord Solar military campain. After the Heresy the use of AI was banned and that is why the Imperium uses Servitors, there were Dreadnought sized robots but they were phased out in the fluff.

I though the use of AI was banned a long time before this? After the downfall of the Golden Age and the Dark Age of Technology? and I'm pretty sure that the Iron Men were long gone before the Heresy. If you look into the backstory of the Heresy, even the forces of Mars and the Mechanicum before the coming of the Emperor didn't use self-willed robots with independent sentient existence. Anything they did use was very basic in it's control. The 'Imperial Robots' as they were have been phased out in the fluff, but even then they didn't have independent sentience. They were directed by a Mechanicum controller leading the squad.

Eversor
05-07-2005, 11:37
The Ironmen were destroyed after the Heresy because they sided with Horus, even those who still were loyal to the Emperor were destroyed as well with much protest with the Machine Cult.
:chrome: I think you've confused Iron Men with Chaos Androids, which were "robots" possessed by daemons ;) Like Jaeger says, the Iron Men had faded into myth long before the heresy. And there is no mention that I can recall of Macharius' forces fighting Iron Men.

Berynius
05-07-2005, 12:03
In the rouge trader days, yes Imperial Guard and Space Marines could have robots, the rules was published in Warhammer 40.000 Compendium.

The Robots were controled by the Legio Cybernetica of the Adeptus Mechanicus. During the Heresy may Legio cohorts joined Horus in fact the old fluff states that they were among the very first AM's that joind Horus.

After the Heresy they were required to take new oaths of loyalty "more terrible than any Marine Chapter oaths"

The description, of the robot hardware/wetware is that is an artificial brain grow to function as the "mind" of the robot, it is also stted that thes brains are patterend after living creatures, and that the machines often develop a dog-like devotion to it's master.

To bring this in to line with newer fluff, I would expand on this and say htat all robot have an anilma brain as it's wetware basis. One would expect a combat robot would have a bear or wolf brain on a robot built for personal protection would have a dog brain.

Inquis. Jaeger
05-07-2005, 12:30
Hence the 'organism/robot' issue again. No independent sentient robot devoid of control by a living organsim can exist in the Imperium, as it is deemed heresy. There was a very good Warhammer Monthly about an AdMech Explorator Team discovering a hidden chamber with a sentient AI prgram in it, directing hundreds of machines. The Arbites turned up to save the day and reseal the chamber.

Mixlplix
05-07-2005, 16:17
There used to be Robots in 40k (long time ago) imperial, eldar and ork ( maybe squat), they were given programming that help determine thier point cost.

Mixlplix
05-07-2005, 16:19
Also, orks also had TinBoyz that were loboimized versions of the other races (i think), EXTREMELY armored and cybered up.

Talkie Toaster
05-07-2005, 18:56
Also, orks also had TinBoyz that were loboimized versions of the other races (i think), EXTREMELY armored and cybered up.
I thought they were just sort of Orky parodies of their opponents, probably intended to cause confusion (not neccessarily being successful, but since when did Ork imagination and reality have to match up?).

Brusilov
05-07-2005, 21:00
I think people are mistaking robots for artificial humanoid sentients. The Legio Cybernetica still exists, and contrary to its name it's entirely made up of warbots. Except those robots are dumb and must be carefully programmed and controlled by techpriests (think dreadnoughts with an artificial brain).

The Iron Men, as the name indicates, were probably sentient and humanoid. And this is a big difference. They were made in our image and it's probable at some point along the way the Stone Men suffered from the Frankenstein syndrome (fear of their creation will overpower them, common in demiurges).
The Iron Men died out in the opening days of the Age of Strife (probably partially caused by the war between humans and machines, as well by the massive emergence of psykers).

archangels uk
11-07-2005, 14:54
Try this site for details on robots in 40k

http://www.criticalhit.co.uk/w40krp/WD104_Imperial_Robots.shtml