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pox
10-11-2006, 05:05
part 1
I have done many large projects, and have sculpted quite a few things. All this has led up to me attempting my most difficult and time comsuming project to date. Like any proper dork, this would be a dragon.

my basic idea was to re-design the chaos dragon from the ground up, using every bit of background on them. the first caveat was no recognisable mark, but rather bits of his body that were "themed" to the various gods. (patches of nurgle sores, fierce horns, lithe limbs and jewelery, color spots with flame gouts, etc.)

the basic design follows that rather then "split" the chaos dragon head into two, but rather give the apperance of two different dragons fused together. this is facilitated through a double backbone, the left side being vaguely aquatic, and the right side more traditional "western" dragon. the final model should be reminicent of spawn, heavily mutated, though stable.
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n109/conversionman/back.jpg
I use a two part epoxy putty (similar to green stuff) called magic sculpt. my preferance is two-fold, first its cheaper,(I pay 30$ for five POUNDS of the stuff) and second, it has no memory. cleans up better, and is ALOT harder when it dries. easier to drill, sand, and pin. ok, thats alot more reson then two. for the armiture, I use small gauge plastic rod, and good ole' pipe cleaners. I get a small candle and melt the fuzz off, be careful, and call the fire marshall before you do it. for larger bundles, stick a few into your dremel end, hold the other end with pliers, and turn on at low speed. also melt the fuzz off. heres a side shot of the main body.
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n109/conversionman/sideshot.jpg
I made a quick skeleton for him out of wooden sticks, and put the clay over it. I wasnt sure if I would need it, so I made some guts. I knew there would be alot of holes later on, and didnt want to have to crack him open. on a whim, decided to give him a mouth where his stomach was. (watchin hellraiser while scupting:)
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n109/conversionman/tummydetails.jpg
part 2 comin' soon!

pox
10-11-2006, 05:09
part 2!
I started on the wound detail on his legs, sculpted the muscle detail (with holes) first, then skin over the detail. with the larger cuts, I plan on putting barbed hooks in the cut flesh, with chains that go to other wounds. (I'm a horror movie buff, and do nothing but watch horror for halloween. good timing!)
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n109/conversionman/rightleg.jpg
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n109/conversionman/leftleg.jpg
for the wings, I drew out the pattern first, then cut plastic tubing to length. I assembled the wings, and reinforced the joints with a bit of clay, then went in with the detail. the pictures are of the inside and outside of the right wing, on the inside picture you'll see a little sliver of wing. this is for a mouth Im gonna build into the wing membrane, complete with mutated jaw bones and huge teeth.
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n109/conversionman/rightwingouter.jpg
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n109/conversionman/rightwing.jpg
part 3 comin' soon!

pox
10-11-2006, 05:12
part 3!
the base gave me the most worries. I always build my mini's for play, and I wanted to try and keep him on a 50x50 base. not easy considering the SIZE I wanted to build it to. heres a scale pic with a greater daemon of nurgle for comparison:
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n109/conversionman/scalepicture.jpg
so, I knew I needed to go up. I figured if he was climbing something and arching over it (classic pose) that I would get maximum size without un-balancing the brute. In keeping with the beastmen theme, I figured a herdstone would work. (fatty for scale again)
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n109/conversionman/base.jpg
like I said, ambitious for me. theres alot of paperwork that goes with the dragon, I jot down every idea I get, or info I find. drawings help alot too. I've found the most difficult part is keeping all the parts in mind, all of them need to be made seperate before I can begin assembly.

ok, so heres the fun part in which you, the reader, get to participate:
what should ride this behemoth? theres no model, past or present, that I dont have, or cant get. I can also sculpt one from scratch, or pretty much anything in between. massive golden throne? chariot? ascending daemon prince? nothing? huge howdah? tiny howdah?
my only requirement is no marks. any equipment is fine. I figure ill figure something out when the dragon itself is done, but I really havnt found that one idea that makes me go "THATS IT!"

any other comments/suggestions/ideas are welcome.

viokni
10-11-2006, 07:16
I can't wait to see it finished and primed. I can't imagine what kind of colors you would use for the dragon.

pox
10-11-2006, 23:34
black skin (with a few minor patches of different colors ) and dark red scales. the 2 halves will be differet shades, to accent the different sides.

The Keeper of Secrets
11-11-2006, 08:58
This looks brilliant, loving the nurgly mouth - guts thing. Ca't wait to see it primed

Paint scheme?

synapse
11-11-2006, 11:01
those wings look great... figuratively and literally! theyre huge :)

pox
12-11-2006, 00:15
yeah, the mouth on the belly will get a modified repeat for the right head. thats what im working on now (pics soon.) I recently found out what a lamprey is, and it scares the hell outta me. my avatar is from a photoshop of lamprey mouths on the end of fingers, seeing that thing full size gave me nightmares for days. as I said, the paint will be black, with dark red scales, but im going for a very neutral shade of red. this will allow "patches" of different colored skin that will blend in well. so the sores/infected spots can be green/pus yellow, and the tzeentchian parts can go blue/purple, etc. but all very subdued, I just want a smooth, basic paint job.

still no thoughts from anyone on a rider?

Mrlemonjelly
12-11-2006, 00:26
That thing's bloody huge!

I'd say riderless. Although I don't know a thing about Chaos rules (or even Fantasy in general nowadays), so I don't know if that's playable.

DirtJumper
12-11-2006, 01:27
Definatly riderless. I can't imagine any model that could possibly be mounted on that that would not take away from it's sheer awsomeness, sculpted or otherwise.

pox
12-11-2006, 02:30
one of the thoughts I had was adding a shelf onto the base (by the time its done, it will have many to hold skulls and weapons as offerings) that the "rider" would stand on. as far as no rider at all, thats certainly possible. according to the rules its a mount for the chaos lord only, but theres nooo reason at all I couldn't just have a lord model seperate that runs beside it or whatnot, for wisiwig purposes. colud put a beastlord up there too, if I could make him look right. no matter what, I'm not really worried about the rules as much. I'm sure my oppenents could deal, and its a bit points expensive to take to a tournement.

theres a few modeling bonuses to a rider, mostly rigging and harnesses. lots of chain, and what not.

violenceha
12-11-2006, 02:40
how about having him as part of the dragon? kind of melted into it.

pox
12-11-2006, 03:14
If I do put in a rider I'm gonna want to be able to field him on foot. I'll end up making the mini twice, but thats fine. it could still work, have a human torso, and then on foot it looks like he just cut himself free, maybe using something to prop hemself up? (nasty sinew and gore strewn behind him)

I also thought about a larger rider, mino or ogre.

and then a daemon prince about to ascend with lil' wings and mutations, after the dragon gets killed he eats the heart and becomes....but then I couldnt field both at the same time.

for the chariot idea, was thinking a small platform, maybe with 2 mauraders as "head handlers" and the main champion with a harpoon or glaive. or possibly a saddle at the base of each neck with the handlers, and the rider on a throne.

like I said, I dont wanna screw it up. I should have alot more done by mid next week, maybe that will kick start some ideas. keep the suggestions comin' tho, or feel free to expound on someone elses ideas. (or mine, for that matter)

Magick Bandit
12-11-2006, 10:15
The sculpting looks awesome, im sorry if this has been mentioned before but is it possible to mount a deamon prince on that dragon? It would make one kick ass unit!!

DirtJumper
12-11-2006, 17:10
Not if you're keeping in with the rules.

The idea of having the Lord on a rocky alcove with the Dragon could work, make him with chains running from his hands to the dragon or somehting so we know its his rider and not just some random dude hanging around.

Tastyfish
12-11-2006, 17:13
I actually thought it looked quite good with that daemon as the rider before you said it was just there for scale purposes (though I was also wondering where you go the minidaemon from...).

pox
12-11-2006, 23:35
the daemon I used for scale is the greater daemon of nurgle, its just old, so its got the original head. The original picture had a skaven, but he was too small for the picture. yeah, the only thought for a daemon prince on the dragon would be before full princedom. I'm gonna be able to work on him all day tuesday, hopefully I'll get the body on the base, and maybe mount the wings. I can just pipe-cleaner the heads and tails, give a better shot of how the dragons final pose will be. that should give a clearer view of what space I have for a rider, and maybe get some more ideas.

liking all the suggestions so far, keep em' coming.

I'll also try to get a better "scale" picture up on monday.

beefpizza
13-11-2006, 22:14
Personally from having done a big model like that (anyone rememeber the huge stegadon?) I would not go for the chariot, or platform idea. I strongly feel this would mess up the model a lot and fluff wise would be wack.
I feel that a good ol chaos lord with a badass weapon or something riding the dragon would be best, kind of like the artwork in the army book. I think this would give it scale, and badassness (which it has a bunch of, but could always use more in any situation in my opinion). If you feel like you have the skill to convert your own chaos lord, then I think you should.
BTW I love your work so far!

pox
22-11-2006, 02:55
part 4
been a while, had some engineering issues with the dragon, and my camera. luckily, both got fixed. I got the dragon onto the base, which I had to modify quite a bit to work right. his feet would only go on a certin way to make room for the hooves I wanted to give him, so I had to straighten out the herdstone.

I added all the armatures for his two heads and two tales. one of the heads is ripping away from its own spine/neckbone, hence the extra appendage.
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n109/conversionman/dragonright.jpg
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n109/conversionman/dragonleft.jpg
I was going to do each bit seperate, but I finally decided I wanted to see how it would all pose together, which turned out to be the right call. now that I got the pose down, I can cut the pieces off to sculpt on them, then re-attatch as needed.
I got the first head done, the non-traditional one. I'm gonna do the other one "normal" more or less, but I wanted to go nuts with this one. im going for a rubbery tentacle look with it, and the lamprey mouth atop it. this is the head thats torn away from the neckbone.
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n109/conversionman/dragonmouth.jpg

I made the gum line and teeth seperate, and then set each tooth in by hand. over a hundred teeth, took a bit o' time.

still no luck on the rider, tho I'm leaning towards minimal looks. the more I get done on it, the more I just want a simple rider, so its prolly just gonna be making him look as good as possible. still open to ideas tho'.

Glass
22-11-2006, 04:05
Cool Project.

shartmatau
22-11-2006, 04:21
very nice sculpting work. I especially like the wings, great texture.

Tyra_Nid
22-11-2006, 04:37
WOW, fantastic. This is one of the best scratchbuilt dragons Ive ever seen. Great eye for detail.

I would also go for riderless, have a ledge that you can put an inf model on if you wish to represent a rider.

DirtJumper
03-12-2006, 16:51
Any progress? This is definatly the coolest model I have seen in a long while! Keep up the good work.

Adlan
03-12-2006, 18:14
I think a Simple, Conan the Barbarian style rider would look good. Not even with a sword, just the dragons reins.

pox
05-12-2006, 08:23
sorry about no update fer a bit. It's banquet season, so im working around 60 hours a week, and still gaming a bit to boot. I HAVE worked on the dragon here and there, just nothing photo worthy. I got the base for the rear hooves done, and got the back spikes sculpted. (just not mounted on the dragon.)
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n109/conversionman/hoof.jpg
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n109/conversionman/hornbitz.jpg


The good news is I've worked my schedule around to sculpt for tomorrow for about 12 hours, give or take. so new pics up wednsday for sure!

Assuming my kitchen doesn't explode/cook quits/emergency dinner party for eighty people.

EDIT: I'm sooo lying in this post, im getting to it now, and its been well over 2 weeks.

pox
22-12-2006, 05:14
its been a while, but I got through a very tough part of the dragon. I wanted a small mouth in the wing, and it turned out to be the biggest snarl in the mini thus far. I scrapped a few initial designs, then just decided to go big. It fit with the rest of the overall "spawn" feel, so I went with it. All I need to do is sculpt the torn/tearing flesh over the jaw bone, and the mutated face on the top of the wing. I was glad to keep it in the end, just didn't realize it was gonna be such a HUGE undertaking. anyhow, here's the finished wing section, minus a few details here and there.
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n109/conversionman/wingmouth1.jpg
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n109/conversionman/wingmouth2.jpg
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n109/conversionman/wingmouth3.jpg
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n109/conversionman/wingmouth4.jpg

I want to just assemble it at this point, but I gotta resist, the thing is sooo huge, its gonna be easier to sculpt it all in separate pieces before the full assembly.

nanktank
22-12-2006, 07:34
Wow! you should cast this when it's finished and sell it, people would pay squillions for it.

sheep
22-12-2006, 08:08
Awesome work there, especially since it looks like you're using miliput, not the easiest thing to work with.

Cheers

Sheep

75hastings69
22-12-2006, 09:34
Love that mouth in the wing, just inspired work. You make sculpting look so easy.... damn you !!!!

Real nice work.

Steve

Magick Bandit
22-12-2006, 11:58
good God... that dragon kicks ass (especially with the teeth!)

The Judge
22-12-2006, 13:17
Lovin' it so far.

Better paint it good!

Voronwe[MQ]
22-12-2006, 15:21
Me too.

Voronwe

Jimbobjeff
22-12-2006, 16:06
you, sir are a god. as for a rider id just use a normal chaos knight....the one with no horns, I think he would look really good just sat up there calmly as his dragon rips the enemy apart....

rrchristensen
22-12-2006, 16:08
I'm overawed by this dragon. Can't believe I didn't see this topic earlier. Now I understand that you want a rider, and the concept of the rider being melded somehow to the dragon sounds very nurgley. But your project got me thinking about the concept of rider and dragon steed. It's a trusty concept in fantasy, starting with or before Dragonlance, and we all enjoy it.

A dragon without a rider is its own agent, a fearsome agent of destruction, the captain of its fate. (This concept was advanced in D&D, for instance, with the Forgotten Realms setting.) A dragon with a rider is primarily a mount. Fearsome, but ultimately a steed, a servant. I think a rider might actually detract from a miniature of such proportions and grandeur.

Anyway, just a thought. Looking forward to see your project develop.

(EDIT: eh. didn't mean to sound like such a dragon fanboy).

Stouty
22-12-2006, 18:00
Aye, riderless dragons feature heavily in the backround so why not have one in an army. My friend uses his dragon without a rider model on it, sure it ain't WYSISYG but it lets him use a right nice reaper dragon.
:D

Warboss Garfang
22-12-2006, 19:28
By far the most detailed model I've ever seen--all I can say is WOW! Can't wait to see more. By the way, you're deffinately managing to bring along the scary part of Chaos: that things gonna make opponents crap their pants.

HiredSword.
22-12-2006, 21:17
now this looks more like a chaos dragon!

As for a rider or not, i think a chaos lord on the base surveying his army with dragon looking over the shoulder would do it. That way you can remove him if you want.

Rokkitz
22-12-2006, 21:35
I second the idea of having the dragon rider on foot on the base. Its a very cool idea and makes the scene into a mini diorama.

For some cool detail, let him hold the reigns (sp?) in one hand, while pointing or covering his eyes from the sun or doing something else with the other. Just keep his weapons sheated.

pox
22-12-2006, 23:29
"To rider, or not to rider, That is the question!" My plan at this point is to finish the dragon completely, then decide. I know for sure its going to be subtle at this point, and I'm liking the idea of him on the monolith. the only other idea I had which I'm exploring a bit is a smallish spider-creature, sort of a drider, but heavily mutated. it wouldn't be on the top of the dragon, but rather hiding on its back, only in view from the rear. it would be a neat model on its own, so I'd have something if the mount got killed. like I said, I'm just focusing on the dragon for now. got a good break from work coming up, I'm hoping to get the dragon assembled by mid-january.

Oh, and thanks to you all for the compliments, makes me want to do more. as soon as the dragon's done, im gonna start a PL for the rest of the army, haha.

speedygogo
23-12-2006, 00:10
The dragon looks awesome! I can't wait to see it completed.

ss_cherubael
23-12-2006, 06:47
insanely good!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
those wings are so nasty and chaos like the spiky mouth things are awesome, damn fine work mate

DirtJumper
23-12-2006, 18:44
That's one awsome sculpt, man. Far superior to anything i've seen GW make, and it isen't even finished yet!

pox
24-12-2006, 20:16
alrighty, I got the right-side "fish" fins done. I miss-judged how many back spikes I would need, so I was up till one in the morning getting a new batch ready for assembly and sculpting today.

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n109/conversionman/dragonfinsleft.jpg
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n109/conversionman/dragonfinsright.jpg
Just for fun, I was working on restoring some old empire nights I have, and decided they would make a great "scale" picture.

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n109/conversionman/dragonforscale.jpg

figured I'd post it, the dragon's starting to fill out to his proper size. working on the head, and final touches on the wings right now. once the fish fins dry, I'll do the horns for the left side, then do the scales. gettin' close to done!

Inquisitor Konig
25-12-2006, 02:44
very intense. I wouldnt want to be those guys...

Gaz
25-12-2006, 04:00
very nice indeed, gonna have to keep an eye on this project :D

Morgrad
25-12-2006, 05:41
I just subscribed - that thing is awesome. I can't wait to see what else you do with it, and *really* want to see you slap some paint on it!

Here's hoping you paint as well as you sculpt! :wow:

I completely agree with what others have said about the rider - a guy on the monolith, reins in-hand or peering over the battlefield would be the perfect compliment. There isn't a rider in the world that would do anything to add to the model itself, but there's just something creepy about a guy "in control" of such a beast.

vampires are cool!
25-12-2006, 20:38
excuse my klatchian, but bloody hell thats fantastic! your really tallented matey, good luck with the bastard

ForAcheron
26-12-2006, 20:16
HOLY BEJESUS!!! The pictures do not do it justice. I can't wait to see this thing finished and in person. It will make you millions of cash moneys.

lee
26-12-2006, 23:24
thats one big dragon sucks to be those knights:D

^_^
26-12-2006, 23:37
:eek: This is a very, very, very cool sculpt, cannot wait to see it finished.

pox
28-12-2006, 22:19
so, as per murphy's law, the closer I get to the finish line, the more problems arise. the fins turned out great for the water side, but there a bit large, and would drown out any detail I did along the other side of the dragon. so after much research, I'm gonna go extreme, and build a huge mouth. kinda seeing a trend here for my poor dragon. luckily, when I did the torso, I sculpted some quick guts to fill him, just in case I needed to make more holes in him.
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n109/conversionman/dragonback.jpg

I'm still in the drawing/design phase of his back mouth, but think along the lines of chaos spawn, in keeping with the dragons over-all theme. I started the feeder legs for the lamprey mouth, there a bit big. I wanted it to look like the mouth could easily eat a horse, so I made the legs the appropriate size. this gives a strange look, but rather then shorten the limbs, I'm gonna make another set thats smaller, and mount them in between the larger ones. here's where its at right now (the mouth is side-ways in this shot)
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n109/conversionman/mouth2.jpg
and in the up-right)
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n109/conversionman/mouth1.jpg

the other mouth is a bit harder. for all its eventual chaos goodness, I still wanted a "normal" western dragon head, in the GW style. here's the upper and lower jaws together.
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n109/conversionman/outhermouth.jpg

they are not glued together, the mouth will be open on the final model. I just thought this was the best pic for showing the scale of the first tusks.

as far as the rider, I'm just focusing on making a shelf on the monolith for him to stand on. the direction that I'm going isn't leaving ANY bit of room thats level enough for anything to stand on. with the changes I did to the necks to allow for the new back changes, the whole model is now focused slightly to the left. that should leave enough room for the "rider" to be mounted on the right of the dragon.

as far as my painting skill, its actually nowhere near my sculpting skill. my plan is to do a test model first with a regular GW dragon, and refine all my techniques before I paint the actual dragon. I've been planning this for years, I'm not gonna rush and screw it up at the painting level, not when I've spent sooo much time sculpting the cursed thing.

howie
29-12-2006, 00:07
that is rather immense and quite possibley the best model dragon i have ever seen

beefpizza
29-12-2006, 02:42
I love it!
I know what you're going though. Making a model from scratch raises so many questions that only you can figure out.

I'm with you on this one (I did the big stegadon, if anyone remembers).

One thing though, with the teeth, they look pretty good, but for me they seem a little too "fat". I would imagine them to be a little thinner. Maybe make them more pointed, and that would make it better imo.

Anyway, good job!

pox
29-12-2006, 05:33
yeah, the teeth were a problem. I was able to fix the roundness for the second mouth (not mounted yet) and the wing mouth, but it was too late for the lamprey mouth. when I'm done with the gum assembly, I'll try to go back with a fine dremel bit and clean them up a bit. Its really hard to go back and fix it, the teeth were made separate then placed in by hand. Theres about 120 teeth give or take, and the mouth's not much bigger then an inch. If the drill or files don't work, I"ll have to either re-sculpt the entire mouth, or pull the teeth and replace with new ones.

liamrob
29-12-2006, 06:15
This is one of the best scratch builts i have ever seen!

Well i guess i can't wait for the finished product and some paint added :)
I really would hate to be those knights unless my horse was really like a ferrari =p

liamrob

sanctusmortis
30-12-2006, 22:57
As an idea for the rider- riding on top of the Western head, holding on via a chain attached to a bridle in its mouth? It'd look awesome, and explain how he can fight whilst riding it too...

Blaklabel
30-12-2006, 23:31
That looks seriously great

pox
31-12-2006, 06:00
just a quick update, I wasn't able to file the teeth down, so I made the gums bigger. took a while, but worth it.
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n109/conversionman/headfront.jpg

and the side
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n109/conversionman/headside.jpg

so that head is nearly done. just got to work the neck, and finish the back of the head. (along with a bit o' polish on the new gum line.)

and as usual, I want to thank everyone for there kind words and ideas. makes doing this a lot easier, and keeps me honest when I want to rush. (I'm looking at you, beefpizza!) thanks again!

beefpizza
31-12-2006, 07:19
Yeah, that made it look much better. It was amazing to begin with, and now it looks even better!

Good work!

For the skin, are you going to do a twisted flesh/muscle/sinew effect, or do scales, or a combination? For either, I could give you some tips as to how to it if you want.

Again, the gums make it look much better.

feeder
31-12-2006, 08:27
Wow. That is some off the chart dragon. If it is only half as cool as I think it's gonna be then it will still be the fonz.

mirakel_jocke
31-12-2006, 16:49
Exceptionelly good so far.

I'm eagerly awaiting pictures of the finished thing as soon as it's done.

/Mirakel_Jocke

VainEnd
01-01-2007, 03:12
man, that is amazing, I can not wait untill you are finished

pox
02-01-2007, 22:59
alrighty, got the next bits done. In an attempt to not get ahead of myself, I've mostly spent the last few days putting the high polish on the bits I've finished. good thing I did, it took a lot longer then I expected.

here's the beginning to the shell back for the lamprey mouth.
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n109/conversionman/shellback.jpg

this gives me a nice base to do some fun shell texture, and I'm gonna throw in a distended neck to show the dragon digesting someone. (like a boa constrictor)

the next bit is what I came up with for the back problem. I was gonna do a large mouth, but I realized I hadn't built in a way for it to open and close. the solution was a parasite, it fits nicely with the wing section, and gives more tentacles to play with.

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n109/conversionman/parasitebody.jpg

the pics a bit weird from the front. all I have are the jawbones, and a bit on the top and bottom of the mouth. I still need to put all the flesh around the mouth.

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n109/conversionman/parasiteface.jpg

so, the only down side is I've been working on this a bit much lately, and I'm outta gas. not gonna be working on this for a few weeks, gonna paint up some chaos marines to give myself a break.

Palatine Katinka
03-01-2007, 19:26
That really is awesome. If you do put a rider on it make sure it's someone worth the honour of such a mighty beast. Riders standing on the base can look cool, it's what i did recently with mine, but I'm not sure if you'd have room for a chunky Chaos Lord sharing a base with that monster!

pox
03-01-2007, 22:43
you know what I really want to do for the rider? I want to make him into a marionette, with the dragon holding the cross bars. just all torn up and re- stitched back together, and make another in a pile on the right base size for when (if) the dragon dies. the story would of course be some fool of a lord went too far north into the chaos wastes looking for this ancient beast. when he woke it, it killed him and went rampaging south, with warbands following in its wake of destruction. the dragon still holds the animated remains of his "master."

A bit weird, and would look right at home on a confrontation mini. not sure if people would like it on a citadel mini, its a bit out there for GW.

all that aside, I'm prolly gonna build a shelf to the right of the dragon for the lord to stand on, or the lord is going to be a spider crawling about in the same spot. I'm still open to input, the only thing I know for sure is hes not going to be "riding" the dragon, it just doesn't fit the grandeur of the beast. Its turned into a beast of legend, something far to the north. don't think anything is gonna tame it, or even bargain with it.

Weregerbil
04-01-2007, 00:32
How about a rider standing on the shoulder blades with chain like rhaines going to each mouth.

fleshcross
14-01-2007, 04:15
Hey Mark, I'm here to comment on your work!

First off, in regards to the rider/no rider: I think the idea of a shelf for the rider is the best idea. I liked the idea of the general surveying the battlefield with his mount atop the monolith behind him, but even more than that, I think sculpting the Chaos lord kneeling in supplication to the mighty beast even more, perhaps both hands holding up a chaos icon (a la http://www.rackham-store.com/boutique_us/images_produits/WFFI01copie.jpg).

Secondly, are you planning on sculpting the actual scales separately (you're a masochist, literally and figuratively, and I thought maybe you might be revisiting the joy you had of sculpting tyranid wings all over again), or are you planning on simply texturing a thin layer directly on to certain parts of the body? I know there won't be much room left for actual scales once you add in all the chaosy goodness.

I think your sculpting has come a long way. Not that you sucked before, but this piece... wow. This is damn tight. Maybe you should revisit the Screaming Bell and make it a Screaming Belltower?

pox
14-01-2007, 08:45
yo' fleshcross. I don't remember if you saw the 10,000 pt. skaven versus high elves battle I played john tade in. The bell was finished with the rat-giant pushing it, and the 4 rat ogres pulling it. a unit of 48 clanrats completed the unit, in glorious clan mors red. if you saw it, then pffft to you on my skill back then, and if not, its got a good size article in the watchman. (out on monday.) yeah, after alot of thought on my little sculpting break, rider is on the base. to keep with the far north theme, gonna be heavily mutated, and possibly aflame.

Ok, a few peeps have asked about the scales, and I'm kind of reluctant to comment on them. not because of trade secrets or anything, but the answer is kind of gross. One of the few things I learned while sculpting horror make-up appliances, is that you want to base your work off of real life things. I have a lot of reference material, both in books and on-line. this collection is everything from anatomy for the artist books, animal and insect reference guides, quite a bit of black library reference material, and of course all the current rules books with lots of proper art and ideas.
for the horror/gore sculpting, I have a lot of wound/medical references, a few embalming guides, books on natural mutations (elephant man, etc), and a sourcebook on historical circus freaks with a few modern jim rose circus stuff thrown in for good measure.

so, for the feint of heart, stop reading now. I searched quite a bit for ideas on the scales, read every monstrous compendium, and looked at every lizard/dinosaur I could find. nothing had that chaos armored look I wanted. then, thanks to the nice folks at somethingawful, I saw a pic of a harlequin fetus in a thread titled "pictures to scare the hell out of you." for the brave, feel free to google it, not mind safe fer sure, prolly not work safe either. for the not so brave, basically, the skin is mutated to grow constantly, and is mostly composed of kreatin. due to the skin being as hard as fingernails, everywhere the skin should bend, it breaks. this creates unique broken plates, that are diamond shaped around the major joints. the skin is a dull color, and is bright red at the joints where the skin breaks. hence, the "harlequin" pattern on the skin. (also the mouth is frozen and pulled into a slight smile, which I'm sure didn't help the name.)

sorry for the long explanation, I just didn't want to come off as a freak. I have several good pictures of the skin texture, the scales are inspired from that directly.

Blatskull
14-01-2007, 11:18
Very nice! It looks a mix of mega-Tyranid beast and Chaos spawn. Cool job.

PS Teeth... What a lot of teeth...

fleshcross
14-01-2007, 18:58
Haha, it's funny, I know exactly the picture you're talking about... does that make me a bad person? I like the idea, pretty much a "cracked earth" look (which is, oddly enough, how I plan on basing my new Death Guard).

I wasn't trying to say your sculpting used to suck, lunchbox, it was always good, this is just a major step up detail-wise I felt (especially the work on the wings I thought), like the difference between a GW sculpt and a Rackham sculpt.

By the way, what the hell is the Watchman?

Oh, I thought you'd be happy to know that the Saints are going to the NFC championship game next week.

Rabid Bunny 666
14-01-2007, 19:05
Haha, it's funny, I know exactly the picture you're talking about... does that make me a bad person? I like the idea, pretty much a "cracked earth" look (which is, oddly enough, how I plan on basing my new Death Guard).


This Dragon rocks, but i can't search for the pic you're talking about (i hate suspense :()

edit: OH MAN, that was nasty!

The Lamprey head is awesome on so many levels, i can't wait to see the Dragon one.

Kaleb79
14-01-2007, 21:04
wow, this is a real treat - I've always wanted to see how such big models are sculpted. the piece by piece screenshots and detailed explanations are very much appreciated.

only downside is I will be having nightmares! :eek:

pox
18-01-2007, 04:26
ok, I'm past my sculpting vacation, got two new updates. first up, the wing. I got a copy of slaves to darkness for christmas, and thought an old-school daemon face would look rockin'! wrong, wrong wrong. didn't fit at all, so off it came.
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n109/conversionman/wingface.jpg

and no more.
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n109/conversionman/destroyedface.jpg

its really hard to go backwards, but if its wrong, its wrong.

on to greener pastures! the lamprey mouth is done, got his fine turtle shell mojo working, and a rough sculpt of the empire swordsman he ate.
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n109/conversionman/lampreyfood.jpg

all in all, good stuff.

pox
18-01-2007, 04:30
not to be outdone, the western dragon head comes out swinging!
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n109/conversionman/headandjaw.jpg

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n109/conversionman/headside-1.jpg

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n109/conversionman/head34ths.jpg

I've got his horns on him now, should be able to get pics up saturday. and if thats not enough wacky conversion/sculpting for ya, check out my skaven goodness in the watchman!

VainEnd
18-01-2007, 04:40
my god, that is soo cool, the wing is awesome and the head is amazing

ImhotepMagi
18-01-2007, 05:23
Dude, that's so awesome it makes me want to eat your heart so that I may gain your sculpting abilities.

On a completely and totally unrelated note, can I have your address? I really just want to send you a card telling you how awesome this dragon is. You will totally not find me in your closet with a bone saw when you get home from work/class/etc.

I promise.

pox
18-01-2007, 21:25
a rib spreader would work better, and you should probably eat my hands, heart rotted out in a ritual to nurgle a few years back. :)

ImhotepMagi
18-01-2007, 21:29
Oh. Nevermind then. It only works with hearts. And besides I wouldn't eat your hands; that's just plain disgusting.

Morgrad
18-01-2007, 23:15
Those heads are awesome.

If it'll grant me the sculpting skill, I'll eat your hands. Human hands aren't bad with a little soy sauce.......

sir_robin
27-01-2007, 13:17
more pics please :)

AsuryanofUlthwe
27-01-2007, 13:51
This is amazing. I can't wait to see this bad boy all together. If I were to be scared of any mini, this would be the one.

Rabid Bunny 666
27-01-2007, 14:06
Awespme work dude! That dragon head is insane.

also, i noticed these weird dice things

Witchfire
27-01-2007, 18:48
Are you going to cast it and sell them? because I for one would buy such an awesome dragon!

pox
28-01-2007, 02:12
alrighty, back with a quick update. here's the western head, in the GW style. its all but finished, needs high polish on the base sculpting, the back of the head needs to get done, and of course the scales, but I wont touch them till I do the whole dragon.
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n109/conversionman/frontheadlow.jpg
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n109/conversionman/sidehead.jpg
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n109/conversionman/tophead.jpg
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n109/conversionman/frontheadhigh.jpg

the ram horns were made with a wood dowel base for the big ones, and plastic for the small ones. I sculpted just the shape, to get the curve perfect. all the grooves were done by hand, I drew them on in fine pencil, then filed till I wanted to die. about 5 hours for the big horns, and 3 for the small.

the steer horns were made by covering the armature (again wood dowel bent to shape) with clay, then carefully wrapping in small thread. let it dry just a bit, then carefully peeled off the thread. a little sanding and file touch up, and presto, chaos horn texture.

the teeth were done the same way as the lamprey mouth, made separately and glued in by hand.

gettin' near the finish line!

pox
28-01-2007, 02:22
just a quick, fun picture. (poor forest gobbo for scale)
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n109/conversionman/headsforscale.jpg

I put the tongue in the mouth of the lamprey, that head is now officially done.

just a quick note about casting this bad boy. sadly, its almost impossible. way too many small pieces, and too many odd shapes. casting in this scale would be far beyond my abilities. if I was offered a chance to get it cast professionally, I would be more then happy to cut him up. alot of people have asked me to cast it, and recently I have thought about making a cast friendly dragon. With GW coming out with the plastic kit, that might not be all that good of an idea. If I do decide to make a resin one, it will of course be available here.
-mark

Witchfire
28-01-2007, 11:46
What a shame, i'll have a look around to see if i can find someone who can cast it if you'd like? This is no doubt the best dragon model I have ever seen in my entire life, including GW and forge world. Maybe you need a change of career buddy!

Braad
28-01-2007, 12:33
I'dd suggest that you redo the part were the daemonhead was a little better than it is now. It has still some suggestion of eyes in it.
But perhaps you already figured this yourself.

But it's becoming better everytime. Really cool. I like the "western" head a lot!

Messiah
28-01-2007, 12:59
Wow! Its breathtaking. With that talent, you could do anything, and it'd be way better than most professionals. Cant wait to see it finished. :)

Ornithoticus
28-01-2007, 13:33
amazing, if i were you id seriously consider getting this casted

Rabid Bunny 666
28-01-2007, 14:28
Holy shiznit! That is truly insane! How come you don't do professional sculpting?

Voronwe[MQ]
28-01-2007, 14:34
That is professional sculpting. ;)

No, seriously, you should talk with GW, Rackham or any other hobby company of a work opportunity or commission jobs for the companies.

Voronwe

Simto
28-01-2007, 14:54
If you don't throw this at a Golden Demon, you're stupid.. because this is the single most awesome dragon i have ever seen, in any fantasy world.
I really can't wait to see this one done! If you keep up like this until it's done, it's going to set a new standard at Golden Demons for sure!
Can't wait for the next update!

By the way, nasty avatar you get there... what happened to those fingers :S

highmarshaldave
28-01-2007, 15:08
Now that is a dragon! Keep at it man, can't wait til 'its painted.

Dave out.

Anardakil
28-01-2007, 15:26
Freaking awesome!

Witchfire
28-01-2007, 16:28
Dude, you must get this casted before you paint it! Please! people would pay exorbiant prices for resin casts of it! Just look at the posts on this thread if you need convincing!You would make back the money it would cost to get casted In a single day!

Isnt that right everyone?

fleshcross
28-01-2007, 19:20
Hey pal, that dragon head looks damn nice! It would look better in Portland though...

Voronwe[MQ]
28-01-2007, 20:00
You could start humbly with 70 dragons (Felix Paniyagua's Avatars of War Slayer model was casted in 300 to be enough for a month or so - and it ran out almost overnight), since the price do will be high (thus I won't be able to get it before spring's here and I can work for my dad's carpenter business again) - but it will be worth it all times around! 70 should be enough for a month, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's out after a week, and then you order 140 casts to see how long they will go (whilst asking around with polls, threads etc. for interest each month in buying this dragon amongst those who doesn't have bought it to see how great a customer circle you can reasonably get), and next time the same number or double it.

This is no joke - I repeat; no joke - cast it as soon as you're finished. It does is the most awesome fantasy dragon I've ever seen, and everyone else too, so this'll sell to all fantasy gaming systems, not just Warhammer.

I'm no expert, though, but you do should call those who can cast it for you - immedeately when you're done. We wants the dragon - you our cash.

Voronwe

lee
28-01-2007, 20:27
:eek: awsome get it casted quick i would buy one

Braad
28-01-2007, 22:40
Funny how everyone wants it casted...

I'dd say, don't cast it, and keep yours the unique and only one in the entire world. Then you really stand out when you take it to tournaments or so. That's what I would do...

rikard
28-01-2007, 23:02
Very nice, I love the way its slwoly been unfolding, just one question though what material did you make this out of? (I'm sure you've probably already said somewhere but I'm going senile in my old age :p)

And what are the chances that the first battle you use it in, it gets shot down by a great cannon on turn one? :p

pox
29-01-2007, 00:18
I just want to thank everyone for all their compliments, it gives me the drive to work longer and harder at this. (like, deciding to work on it all day tomorrow, new pics in a few days.) the last set of pics got a HUGE response, so I'll just adress a few.

@simoto :It will be at the LA gamesday in the open category if I can manage to finish the paint in time. my avatar was the actual inspiration for the lamprey head, the full size pic is truly disturbing. I quite literally had nightmares, and from them came the dragon head.

@braad: the daemon face on the wing is going to be completely re-done, I was just showing how sometimes you gotta destroy to create. I didn't like the face in the end, but was still proud enough of it to snap a few shots of it. the new one is going to be a design originally for the western head, to make it seem more natural. (keeping with a draconic feel instead of daemonic.)

@rikard: I use a 2 part epoxy, similar to green stuff called magic sculpt. Its cheaper, and has properties I prefer. (longer work times, a lot harder when dry, and no memory whatsoever. makes it a lot easier for fine detail work, imho.) As to the dragon getting killed in my first game, I'm sooo sure of it, He's going front and center.hopefully while hes getting shot to hell, I'll win with the rest of my army. I'm a horde player, so its gonna take some time learning how to use him. I also only have a beast of chaos army right now, So I need to make an army to go with him.

@rabid bunny 666 and voronwe: It is my ultimate goal to be a sculptor one day, its basically all I do. the actual job isn't important, as long as I'm sculpting. I would prefer miniatures, but any toy company would work. I'm just not in a place where I can pursue that right now. I'm a hell of a cook and get paid a lot to do it, which is working for me right now. I'll be going to school for sculpting within ten years, If I haven't found someway to do it with no formal education. alas, the curse of the self-taught artist. while I wait for that to happen, I'll continue to field some cool looking models on the old battle field.

And now the big one: casting. I can safely say there is no way to cast this. I think a lot of changes would have to be made, so many that it would be easier to re-sculpt with casting in mind, then to make this one castable. a lot of the time it takes to sculpt is the planning/design phase, and when this is done, I wont need to do that again. its a lot easier/faster to sculpt from something that already exists, then to make up your own stuff. I learned how to sculpt up-scaling mini's from 40k to inquisitor. my inq-scale fabius bile is still A sight to see. just copying, same scale to same scale, is the easiest of all. when the original is done, the copy would only take a month or so.

so, this is what I propose: after its done and painted, And I'm still sane, I'll do it with the intent to cast it. re-sculpt the whole model, but doing it in cast-sized parts. the main glitches with the casting are the mouths, and how all the pieces fit together. I wont lose any details, but some parts would look different. and its gotta be in about 25 pieces. all that being said, I would still need to find a company that would cast it. They don't need to sell it, I would want to just pay them up front for the casting. I have no idea how that all works, if someone out there does, feel free to PM me.

Ultimately, this is still a hobby for me. I'm overwhelmed at the response to it, and would like to see it casted. any and all advise is appreciated.

@fleshcross: subtle. bout as subtle as shannies comment on myspace. if it makes you feel better, Im not moving to sacramento for sure, just dont know if im staying in chico or not. :)

Witchfire
29-01-2007, 15:54
cool, I reckon that your resculpt will be even better than the original, seeing as you now have plenty of experience. I am officially a fan.I eagerly await more work from you.

pox
31-01-2007, 02:37
spent a good chunk of today sick, and stayed home sculpting. to start, heres the first round of scales, with the final tail fin added for good measure.
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n109/conversionman/scalesandfin.jpg

next up, his stompin' feet.
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n109/conversionman/footies.jpg

the armature for his one useful claw-hand,
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n109/conversionman/hand.jpg

and last but not least, the chewing rot-trail left by the giant maggot got its first round of sculpting.
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n109/conversionman/maggotrot.jpg

getting really, really close to the point where I can start assembling the pieces. I cannot wait!

VainEnd
31-01-2007, 03:12
you cant wait? what about us? this is one of the best sculpt jobs I've ever seen, and it is the best from scratch sculpt I have ever seen. Cant wait untill it is finished

dr.oetk3r
31-01-2007, 05:52
Simply awesome

Kaleb79
31-01-2007, 13:34
I hope this will be put in White Dwarf for the rest of the world to appreciate when it's done!

Voronwe[MQ]
31-01-2007, 14:08
Awesome's the word, and I share Kaleb's hopes. Not at the point? Very well, you could at least cast it and sell it - the response here is very likely to guarantee a non-loss at least. You could send a letter or E-mail to Felix Paniyagua (http://www.warseer.com/ads/adclick.php?bannerid=39&zoneid=2&source=&dest=http%3A%2F%2Favatars-of-war.com%2Fweb2mail%2Fweb2mail.php to get to his website. you'll find the address after a fast search.) and ask if he knows where any casters are, and if you could contact them.

Voronwe

Rabid Bunny 666
31-01-2007, 16:37
getting really, really close to the point where I can start assembling the pieces. I cannot wait!

Believe me, you're not the only one :D

Looking suitably more evil the more you do.

srsmith
31-01-2007, 16:53
That thing is amazing. I stand in awe at your ability to sculpt. I can't wait t osee the finished product.

sir_robin
31-01-2007, 20:44
you truly are an amazing artist, I can't wait to see it finished!:D

wildkarrde0
31-01-2007, 23:12
i'm most impressed the most i do with modalling putty is the odd fill and minor conversions very impressive

pox
01-02-2007, 04:04
I think that getting sick was the best thing to happen to me. I haven't been able to do anything but sculpt, its kinda nice. got a lot of high polish done today, and quite a bit more detail added. I'm thinking around ten more hours or so for the body, then I can start to mount parts.

first up, got the first layer of horns for the right side done.
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n109/conversionman/bodyback.jpg
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n109/conversionman/bodyside.jpg

I got the maggot face almost done, and I finished its tail. I also did the scales on the inside of the lamprey side, so I mounted the maggot tail.

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n109/conversionman/maggotface.jpg
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n109/conversionman/maggottail.jpg

should be able to do one last quick update before I go to sleep tonight.

pox
01-02-2007, 06:34
alrighty, here's the update before I sleep. did the wing section again, this time I went for a more subtle approach. its hard to see all the eyes and mouths, there's a lot of little details that will show better when its painted. I didn't want to do it as another head, and have it detract from the rest of the dragon. I settled on a heavy mutation effect that blended with the wing texture nicely.
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n109/conversionman/wingtop.jpg
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n109/conversionman/wingfront.jpg

not gonna be able to do any more work on it till this weekend, but I'm hoping that I can have it assembled by this time next week.

sanctusmortis
01-02-2007, 23:21
This board needs a jawdrop smiley. NOW.

Voronwe[MQ]
02-02-2007, 13:48
NOW.

Voronwe

Morgrad
05-02-2007, 03:38
Holy *******' crap, this thing just gets better and better and better.

I can't wait to see this bad boy assembled and painted. Truly awe-inspiring.

Voronwe[MQ]
05-02-2007, 07:51
I can't wait to see it cast! Man, you have to cast it.

Voronwe

the_yuk
05-02-2007, 10:55
Sweet mother of jesus that things insane. I thinkim going to have nightmares over it tonight. Brilliant work, just brilliant that should be on display permantly in the louve!! (maybe not). Im not a chaos fan at all but id consider buying one if they were cast its just awesome.

Voronwe[MQ]
05-02-2007, 11:03
Exactly - I like Chaos a lot but doesn't collect it, but even those who don't like it wants to buy it because it is amazing! Cast it man, cast it.

Voronwe

Asuril
05-02-2007, 11:19
Holy ***** on a ********* sandwich with ***** on top.



Holy...


Wow. Those mouths with the teeth... that's like... raw *******' Chaos. And wings that bite! Oh man, brilliant.


Only piece of worth-while thing to say is that I think the body area around the 'stomping foot' needs to be filled out a bit more. He's too thin around his pelvis. A fin or row of spikes or something would hide it and give the illusion equally well, though.

If you can, even. Don't know the weight of the materials, or if it's possible to make additions/changes. It looks brilliant, regardless.

Braad
05-02-2007, 11:48
All I got to say now is.... excellent!
How did you ever come up with the maggot idea?

Messiah
05-02-2007, 12:11
The maggot is so yucky. Great!

THE CHIEF
05-02-2007, 12:12
There really isn't a smiley to represent what I'm feeling right now! So I'll have to try in words...

LDJAQEORWTYWETIHHBNDNNDNNNND"WOWAOOOSO|A:@{{{|||||||! :eek:

Well there we go, now that my siesure is over I can finally comment coherently - AMAZING!!! Fricking great work man, I can't believe how good this looks, and every update just increases the rediculous awesomeness tenfold. I can't believe I have only just found this thread - I am now hooked :cool:

EDIT Also, I know what you're saying about casting this one, but making another with a view to getting it casted is a real must IMO. I think you would probably get into the sculpting trade easier than you think - and without any qualifications too...at least give it a go, and if nothing happens straight away you can still carry on with your original plans for the next ten years or whatever.

Voronwe[MQ]
05-02-2007, 13:39
There really isn't a smiley to represent what I'm feeling right now! So I'll have to try in words...

LDJAQEORWTYWETIHHBNDNNDNNNND"WOWAOOOSO|A:@{{{|||||||! :eek:
I'm sure this'll be sigged...


Also, I know what you're saying about casting this one, but making another with a view to getting it casted is a real must IMO. I think you would probably get into the sculpting trade easier than you think - and without any qualifications too...at least give it a go, and if nothing happens straight away you can still carry on with your original plans for the next ten years or whatever.
Listen to THE CHEF, for he is all-knowing.

Voronwe

Fred_Scuttle
05-02-2007, 15:44
Great Winds of Chaos!!!!

FW Needs to hire you ASAP!!!!!!

That is so original and so cool!!!!

Really great job - will be following this until it's done for sure!

txamil
06-02-2007, 02:13
Holy crazy. grats on the future slayer sword.

pox
06-02-2007, 03:57
alrighty, back with the first update for today, gonna be a fun monday and tuesday! first up, the first layer of damage around the wing where the mouth grew.
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n109/conversionman/wingmouth2-1.jpg
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n109/conversionman/wingmouth1-1.jpg

not to be outdone, here's a few pics of the western head, I added a tongue and ears. (I cant believe I forgot the tongue, I was working on it at my shop and a helpful gamer pointed it out. its weird how you miss the big things)

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n109/conversionman/head2.jpg
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n109/conversionman/head1.jpg

I also mounted both heads, I'll post in a sec. (only 4 pics per post allowed.)

pox
06-02-2007, 04:03
I had a lot better pics of the dragon, but they were too washed out. I had bought new lights, and forgot to adjust the camera to match them. on with the show! (the file is just for positioning, in case that wasn't obvious.)

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n109/conversionman/dragonright-1.jpg
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n109/conversionman/dragonleft-1.jpg

just trucking along today and tomorrow, should have some new stuff either tues. or wed. till then thanks for all the comments, I got to go eat right now, so I'll address them in my next post.

VainEnd
06-02-2007, 04:35
:eek: that is so amazing

Imp of High Noon
06-02-2007, 06:09
Zoi!!! This is without doubt the single best miature on earth. There is No doubt. It's beautiful. But one thing, by the blind gods, put it on a bigger base! I'm looking at it and waiting for it to fall over! A bigger base, build one around the one you have there, a cairn or something, to go with the herdstone look. Please do this for me, I'd hate to have to come and find you if something terrible befell this wonderful piece of art...

Voronwe[MQ]
06-02-2007, 08:25
Arrgh! That is amazing! Please, please, cast this one! Forge World should indeed invite you to an interview and cast it - originality to 100%.

Voronwe

Son-Of-Sparda
06-02-2007, 09:01
:eek:

...just :eek:

pox
06-02-2007, 09:15
ok, no new pics (more tomorrow for sure) just some quick answers to peeps.

@asuril: the model is easy enough to modify, I'm just not sure I want to yet. the skeleton structure I chose for the dragon is great cat, which have very small hind quarters. Normally it looks a lot larger on the big kitties due to the skin connecting fairly low on the inside of the thigh, but with the stomach mouth I couldn't do it without obscuring detail. I like the lean, wasted look on him. the surface detail is based off of the galrauch drawing on pg. 101 of the hordes of chaos book, and spawn artwork in every chaos book I could find. when I do the final level of detail, I'll cover/alter any inconsistencies in the over all form of the model. I still want to do leeches/lampreys on the water side of the dragon, and chaos armour in various places around both dragons.

@txamil: I appreciate the vote of confidence regarding the slayer sword, but alas, I cannot win it. the dragon will be in the open category, which, along with young bloods, are excluded from best in show. my actual hopes are to make it past the first round of cuts.

@braad: the maggot idea was from an old dream I had, in which I was the recipient of a parasite very, very similar too the one in the dragon.

@imp of high noon: believe it or not, my dragon is more stable then the GW one! the rock it's perched on is very heavy, and the model is well balanced. first and fore-most it's a playing piece, and that was my only rule for making it. I wanted a legal dragon, everything is mounted high enough to charge it. (ok, it cant be charged to the rear with cavalry-sized models, but I figure that wont come up too often. other then that, it can be surrounded.)

should have more pics up soon, thanks again everyone for there support.

Braad
06-02-2007, 13:05
Right... is that the kind of thing you normally would dream about?

I've got the feeling the necks, and then especially the one of the western head, are going to be too long though.

Rabid Bunny 666
06-02-2007, 15:33
That is looking AWESOME together man, Its looking a bit thin, but i'm presuming the wings will make it look stockier.

Finish it! :D

Caelas
07-02-2007, 01:29
don't raly like the fly trap head, makes it look wierd, would look better with another dragon head. other then that it's AMAZING, great job, and I look forward to seeing it finished!

also the neck is way too thin compared to the heads, you gotta make it thicker!

THE CHIEF
07-02-2007, 11:09
I think the level of detail is immense in the closeup pics and it looks amazing, but I do think it looks a bit odd from the side...I know you have a lot to do still in the final stages, but I think its the overall pose I'm not too sure about. Probably a symptom of forcing it onto the gaming base though! Keep going I want to see it with the wings attatched!

pox
07-02-2007, 23:11
got the wings on, but not without incident. while gluing the second wing on, the first came loose. I made a grab for it, and according to murphys law, the second fell off too. except it just didn't fall off, one bit stayed glued, so as it fell it acted like a pendulum, and smashed right into the lamprey mouth. in addition, it was the wing with the mouth, and of course it hit dead on. a quick round of combat ensued, wherein the mouth won, the wing fled, the mouth pursued, and both got smashed onto the floor. if you had been in the room at the time, it would have appeared to you that I was speaking in tongues. I was not aware I could make up soooo many curse words at once, nor have I ever actually cursed the chaos pantheon by name. you know you've been modeling a bit too much when your cussin' out nurgle, tzeentch, khorne and slaanesh by name in full anger. I'm pretty sure I even yelled at bel'akor, just to be safe.

three hours later, the wings were mounted, and then I went to sleep. after work today, I spent another three hours fixing him. so, onward and upward.

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n109/conversionman/dragonright-2.jpg
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n109/conversionman/dragonleft-2.jpg
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n109/conversionman/assembledleft.jpg
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n109/conversionman/dragonback-1.jpg

pox
07-02-2007, 23:33
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n109/conversionman/assembledright.jpg

and, that gives him the old 360'. he's so big, its grown past the confines of my photo shooting area. just for fun, I got a quick pic of him on my work table, terrorizing some chaos marines.

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n109/conversionman/workplace.jpg

addressing the last few comments:

the necks are not done, there's no detail on them what so ever. I still have to do armour on one, and scales on the other. not to mention spikes, bone spurs, and whatever else comes along. (maybe a rider, still not sure about that one)

He's on a small base for definition, it keeps him monstrous and in scale with fantasy battle. plus theres no issues when I play with him. if they release a new dragon on a bigger base, I'll make his bigger.

the second head is intentional, I wanted a "standard" wester-style dragon head, and one that was unique to me. It was a call of making the model mine, or making it like other dragons I've seen. I went for the original route, but I feel it keeps with the overall "feel" of chaos mutations.

the overall size and shape of the dragon was agonized over for weeks, and I made a paper mock-up of the dragon to make sure it was going to turn out the way I planned. the paper dragon was then used for all scale measurements, with normal deviation as the model progressed. My overall goal is to make a model thats on par size-wise with forge world, and have a very unique playing piece for warhammer. I feel I've done that, and It fits my view of what a chaos dragon should look like. thanks again to everyone for there comments, head to the finish line!

(still gotta paint him, ugh.)

(for an extra funny, the wingspan is too big for golden daemon by an inch-and-a-half. gonna have to "curl" both wings a bit to make him legal.)

liamrob
07-02-2007, 23:47
I bet you'd be so angry if the dragon fell onto those marines and smashed them apart. Oops murphy's law if you say something its gotta happen :p

I love the model and will you ever cast it somehow. Because if you do you'll be making many dollars or pounds or yen or canadian dollars etc. etc.

Keep up the hard work!

pox
07-02-2007, 23:52
lol, I could care less about the marines, I'd be *******' out about the dragon again! (all my good marked chaos marines are done, those are just for unmarked or undivided marines. I find all marked lists to be boring, so there gonna be filler/variety.)

THE CHIEF
07-02-2007, 23:54
Oh yeah thats the stuff! I knew it was gonna be good with the wings on, but I wasn't prepared for that! Great.

Voltaire
08-02-2007, 00:01
Excellent work Pox. A unique model that will no doubt be amazing!

sir.spamalot
08-02-2007, 00:09
Awesome sculpting work! I think (if painted well) it would get high marks in golden deamon. Just one thing is IMO the necks are a little bit long and spindly making it look like his head is to large. But, amazing job all the same.

cheers

P.S: cast one :)

pox
08-02-2007, 00:42
the one thing I am going to change for sure is the actual position of the necks, the wing-span is a bit larger looking then I thought, I'm gonna have to spread them out a bit, they look too bunched up. I still like the length though. I think that with all the final details, the necks are gonna look to scale.

fleshcross
08-02-2007, 00:57
When you curse Malal you'll know you've really hit bottom.

That thing looks pretty damn amazing put together. I can hardly wait to see you paint it. You should just go balls out and paint it Sky-Earth Non-metallic metal. =)

I think I've decided on doing Vampire Counts when they finally come out.

pox
08-02-2007, 03:13
I honestly have no idea how I'm going to paint it, my goal is to finish it first.

I re-did the heads, much better now. just a quick photo, I need to re-do my photo set up for the rest of this thread, haha.

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n109/conversionman/newheadside.jpg
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n109/conversionman/newheadfront.jpg

all I did was break the neck in two spots and re-position it. looks a bit more natural, and will allow me to add more detail to the maggot.

speedygogo
08-02-2007, 09:31
It looks phenominal so far.

wildkarrde0
08-02-2007, 10:32
really ammazing work

sLai
08-02-2007, 12:00
Amazing!

Oh and about the necks, they seem to be a little to long if you compare it to the lenght of the body, and the thickness of it. But really, its just obsenely good anyway :)

Braad
08-02-2007, 12:10
Very nice indeed.

What about front legs? Still coming or planning something different?

Guilliman
08-02-2007, 13:27
Those heads are amazing! Great work.

Please tell me you are as good at painting as sculpting. I hate it when people make great sculpts and spoil them with a bad paint job.

Rabid Bunny 666
08-02-2007, 14:32
Sweet Iehovah, that is incredible.

Asuril
08-02-2007, 14:57
Looks amazing!

Er... what happened to your fingers in your avatar pic?

XD

Neknoh
08-02-2007, 18:55
. . . wow

that's all I can say

wow

Paulus
08-02-2007, 19:09
This fantastic - hideous, in a good way!

pox
08-02-2007, 21:49
here's the full pick of my avatar, I have no idea who did the photoshop work.

picture pulled so as to not offend, Its a bit too gross for a G-rated website.

this pic was the main inspiration for the lamprey dragon head.

I am doing front legs, one arm is pictured earlier in thins thread, and the other is going to be a tentacle wrapping around the base.

the necks still have no detail, I think they will look fine after they have scales and armour sculpted on.

I have decided on a rider for sure, I'm going to have a chained platform near the top spines of the dragon for him to stand on. the rider is going to be a conversion, rather then sculpted from scratch. I'm basing him off of the 2003 games day mini (the wolf priest) converted to look like a fantasy lord. I'm gonna finish that model completely separate, so in the off chance he doesn't work, I've still got an awesome chaos lord. (that way, I haven't destroyed a games day mini for nothing, haha.)

FalseAngel
09-02-2007, 02:57
Just wanna say that picture really really bothers me... It just seems so gross to me for some reason... and I have a rather strong stomach...

Oh yeah, I've been subscribed to this thread for quite some time but haven't commented have I? Well, lemme just say you have yet another buyer if you ever make a "mold friendly" dragon. Keep it up!

ImhotepMagi
09-02-2007, 03:11
Thank you pox. I am now officially scarred for life by that picture. Never has anything like that actually physically turned my stomach. I would definitely never eat your hands now. Do you have any modelling skill in your liver that I may harvest?

EDIT: God, I can't even look at your avatar any more...looks like I'm going to have to abandon this thread for a while....

pox
09-02-2007, 03:15
yeah, not sure if I should have put that pick up or not, welcome to my nightmares. if its actually bothering anyone, let me know, and I'll pull it. I have about 30 or so pics like this, they are my go-to place when I need to make creepy stuff. (mostly for horror make up, but hey, its chaos.)

ImhotepMagi
09-02-2007, 03:18
I was really sort of joking, but it is rather disturbing. I usually find that kind of thing fascinating in a twisted sort of way, but that pic is just...just vile. But if that's the sort of thing that turns out awesome chaos dragons, who am I to judge :)

Zothos
09-02-2007, 04:31
I have been subscribed to this thread for quite sometime now and wanted to say Incredible sculpting work on the dragon.

However I am going along with the "vile" description of the avatar.....truly Vile.

Wayfarer
09-02-2007, 05:21
I know you've heard this a hundred times already but this is a really fantastic project. I do a little sculpting here and there and I cannot even imagine doing something this intricate. Looking at how cool your dragon is turning out to be it's making me want to try something similar, though it wouldn't turn out anywhere near as awesome as yours. Can't wait to see it finished.

liamrob
09-02-2007, 05:37
Dam that pic is yuck! I thought it was brown finger nails but now that is sick :p

I'm not looking at that picture again. Keep up the hard work like usual

CYA!

Braad
09-02-2007, 09:16
I now truly understand where you get your ideas...

Nostro
09-02-2007, 09:41
*Joins the bandwagon*

You sculpt really well. It didn't strike me until I saw the head, but this is really good work. Keep up, I am really impressed!

*Joins the bandwagon #2*

This avatar pic... really yuck. I've been wondering for a while what it was and had decided it was some kind of undernail brown mushroom thing I was not really sure I wanted to see more close up, but the truth went well over my expectations.

I don't know why we find that so more disturbing than gory severed limbs or open stomach on TV/movies. Maybe because it is in some way more "plausible", less over the top? Or because it touches that natural conservation instincts which make you scared of parasites or some kind of violation of your body. I put it in the same category as the fear of bugs creeping under your skin or swimming in your veins, if you see what I mean.

Rogue 7
09-02-2007, 14:00
Oh. O.K. I had thought that your avatar was a pic of a couple of fingers with holes chewed in them, which seems a lot more disturbing than some photoshop work. For some reason it's less scary. Amazing job on the Dragon!

Son-Of-Sparda
10-02-2007, 00:32
That avatar is grossly disturbing. I'm a student nurse (as you can imagine I've seen a lot of nasty things) but that is just wrong. Consider this thread unsubscribed :p

pox
10-02-2007, 01:40
thanks to everyone for the compliments. I'm sorry about the close-up pick of the avatar, I'm gonna pull it. didn't mean to offend anyone, the pic is photoshopped, if that helps. Its just lamprey mouths superimposed over fingertips. it kind of de-railed the thread, and for that I'm also sorry. I should have more pics of the dragon saturday night. sorry again,
-mark

Nostro
10-02-2007, 02:11
I for one didn't actually mind the pic and the avatar to stay. This is gross but it shows a source of inspiration of your dragon. However, it may indeed have derailed the thread a bit, quite valid point for removing the pic. But don't excuse yourself! I'm sure no one has lost interest in this thread because of that. :)

The drastic change of avatar to a teddy bear is hilarious:D

EDIT: after closer inspection, the bear looks meaner than I tought :p

natedogg710
10-02-2007, 02:13
Great job on the dragon, its awesome. I had no problem with your old avatar, but I think the new one is a lot better.

I can't wait to see the dragon finished.

pox
10-02-2007, 03:05
lol, the bear is worse then it looks as the little avatar, but I learned my lesson! I WILL NOT be posting a full pic of him, haha.

Son-Of-Sparda
10-02-2007, 14:44
thanks to everyone for the compliments. I'm sorry about the close-up pick of the avatar, I'm gonna pull it. didn't mean to offend anyone, the pic is photoshopped, if that helps. Its just lamprey mouths superimposed over fingertips. it kind of de-railed the thread, and for that I'm also sorry. I should have more pics of the dragon saturday night. sorry again,
-mark

PM received and replied to. Apology accepted! Now, where are those dragon pics? :)


lol, the bear is worse then it looks as the little avatar, but I learned my lesson! I WILL NOT be posting a full pic of him, haha.

Hmm, is he the bear from Hunter: The Reckoning?

Asuril
10-02-2007, 15:28
It's somewhat ironic that I, who originally brought up the inquiry about the avatar picture, didn't actually get a chance to see it in the thread before it was removed.

Uhm... oops? XD

pox
11-02-2007, 06:37
meanwhile, back on topic, I got some good progression and photos. due to the concerns with the necks, I decided to do them first. I'm hoping to get them both done by Wednesday. here's the first layer of neck one. I'm still of the opinion that there not too long, And I'm fairly sure by the time all the detail's on they should look to scale with the rest of the dragon.

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n109/conversionman/neck.jpg

and then here's some close-up shots of the necrotic flesh around the maggot

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n109/conversionman/neckrotleft.jpg
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n109/conversionman/neckrotright.jpg

looking good so far. its a bit harder to hold it now, but fun to just stare at. the hands I had for him are not working, so its back to the drawing board for them.

I should have another up-date tomorrow night.

AinuLainour
11-02-2007, 07:16
Amazing attention to detail! Bravo!

I also had the displeasure of seeing the full pic of the avatar. THANK YOU very much for removing it :D

ForAcheron
12-02-2007, 06:44
QUICK, Change all avatars to tasmanian devils!!!

pox
12-02-2007, 07:48
now, thats just not fair. no using my personal, private phobias against me. damn local gamers.

fleshcross
13-02-2007, 18:29
Huh, apparently Warseer didn't like my last post, so here it goes again.

I really like the detail on the neck so far, we're you going for the elephant skin look purposefully? The wound area at the base of the neck looks rad.

The only thing that is strange to me is that it seems as if the neck gets larger as it moves away from the body towards the head, when physiologically speaking the opposite should be true. It could just be the angle though.

Can't wait to see more slugger.

THE CHIEF
13-02-2007, 23:31
The neck doesn't get thicker towards the head - if you look it (was) actually thicker at the other end before it got chewed by the parasite. Plus as mentioned this is only layer one of neck one, so it will change a bit more before it is complete.

Looking really good so far Pox! Keep it up you are really close to finishing!

McNuggets
14-02-2007, 16:01
Amazing work. seriously this is the best model i have ever seen sculped....



ps can you give me a link for the finger picture thing ill probably regret it but id love to see it for....... insiration lol

Morgrad
15-02-2007, 00:30
This thing just keeps getting better and better.

I'm in awe.

Malchek
15-02-2007, 00:56
Yeah I keep coming back to this thread and every time I see an update I'm bowled over - to be honest I don't think I have enough superlatives to do the work justice - its simply amazing, beautiful - a work of art.

Thank you

;)

Trolond
15-02-2007, 00:57
I'm sorry, where do you live exactly? That is definately at the top of my "things to steal list if I find out i'm going to die tomorrow" (not that I have one or anything :eyebrows: ) Purely amazing. I have another question for you. GW hasn't hired you for sculpting models yet... why?

Again, I love it. It is sickly beautiful. The heads are incredible. I thought my GSing of marine legs' position was good... lol. Good work. --high-five--

pox
15-02-2007, 02:54
thanks for all the compliments. I should have an up-date soon, just had a bit of personal issues getting in the way of completing the dragon.

for all those that talked about the dragons neck size, I say hats off to you, turns out the necks were too long. I couldn't figure out where I went wrong, then I realized it had to do with the original drawings, and the necks attacking downward. because I want to use it for the game, I sculpted them going strait out. this wound up not working in the end, so I chopped both heads off. rather then fix it quick, I am leaving them off to finish the arms and maggot. nothing pic worthy, I should have something up by sunday at the latest.

Gereth
15-02-2007, 03:29
Hey there Pox! I don't know how I managed to miss this thread so far... DUDE THIS DRAGON OF YOURS ROCK! That thing on the tabletop... holy C***!

COngrats on an amazing job so far!

sonofsparky
16-02-2007, 04:03
Hey pox, I can't wait to drop that thing in the first round with a couple of Great Cannons.

See ya around :D

lorbaat
16-02-2007, 05:01
Whoa my god!

I thought this thing was awesome back when it was obviously just in the roughed-out stages! Now I check up on it and the detail... it's just superb.

pox
16-02-2007, 07:05
ok, 2 good updates. I chopped the heads off, and decided to take advantage. here's the finished maggot mouth, unless I decide to add a tongue.

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n109/conversionman/maggotdone.jpg

with the head off, I easily finished the detail of his waddle. (not sure if thats the right term for it, but hey, its fun to say!)

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n109/conversionman/underhead.jpg

I also got a lot of detail on the swallowed soldier on the other head, but alas, no pictures. (hard to make him out, will look good painted.)

here's two shots of the first layer on the right tentacle arm.

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n109/conversionman/armdetail1.jpg
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n109/conversionman/armdetail2.jpg

so close I can taste it!
As far as smack talking about killing my poor dragon before its done, don't make me mark the rider with tzeentch! golden eye of tzeentch and a staff of change. gives my general and rider a 3 ward save against your cannons. (not to mention the staff, which just smokes fools.) but enough talkin', on with the up-date!

pox
16-02-2007, 07:28
here is four shots of the left arm, which is a heavily mutated claw. I just LOVE the artwork of john blanche, some of the best stuff I do is inspired by his overall form and style. this claw is directly inspired from the original artwork for morghur, the master of skulls. its in the nurgle book of chaos, you pretty much can't sculpt a lot of chaos without that awesome reference book. anyway, here it is. this is also just the first layer, I've got the fleshy parts done, none of the "blades" have been done.

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n109/conversionman/claw4.jpg
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n109/conversionman/claw3.jpg
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n109/conversionman/claw2.jpg
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n109/conversionman/claw1.jpg

it's really hard to see its overall form, I think it will make a lot more sense once its mounted. not gonna be another up-date till sunday, at the minimum.

One more thing about technique, a few peeps have posted about this inspiring them to try something, or they sculpted once or twice and it didn't turn out ok. I say, do it. make a wip log, practice, and start big.
the large scale stuff IS easier, I started actually sculpting full mini's for inquisitor, the scale helped me to learn. for fantasy, try a monster, chaos spawn, troll, ogre, mino, or pretty much any 40mm monster or larger. (chariot, i'm looking at YOU! you too, DoW rare choice!) look to the generals compendium, make a giant for your army, or even sculpt a terrain piece.
this forum is bar none the BEST source for knowledge and skill, if you start a log and ask for help, your gonna get more then you could ever use or need. however, none of that will ever top practice. I had no such info when I started, it took a lot of hunting to find texture guides and what-not. my teacher was determination, I SUCKED when I started. I have a few of the first things I did, and trust me, there not better then the first things your gonna make. I just wanted it sooo bad, I kept doing it till I got good.

alrighty, thats enough rambling. I know I say this every few posts, but your responses make this both easier and faster. normally a project this size would take me a year to complete, but the compliments make me wanna work longer, and harder.(not to mention the occasional constructive criticism.) so, thanks again!

Catferret
16-02-2007, 07:37
Glad to see you haven't burnt yourself out on this project. A long haul thing like this would have driven me mad long ago. It's really nice to see your perseverance paying off. Pretty inspiring too. Giving me motivation to get to work on my own projects that are nowhere near as complex.

Keep up the excellent work. :)

OnnO
16-02-2007, 08:18
Off topic:
Pox:
Is that a stuill from "Demonic toys" you've got as Avatar?

On-topic:
Tbh, at first I thought the dragon would turn out to be some lame, über-chaos-fourteen-year-old-wet-dream-spikybit-rotting-flesh-monstrosity.

BUT: It's turned out great, this is one incredible sculpt and is turning into an awesome model.

I bow my head to your awesomeness :)

Asuril
16-02-2007, 12:42
Looking great!

That claw is very bad-ass. I'm a fan :-P

Keep going, you're almost done. :)

Sleazy
16-02-2007, 14:00
i have been watching this thread from day one but have kept quiet... till now.


dude i am soooo jealous, I have absolutely no idea when it comes to sculpting.

I love the design of your dragon too,its unlike anything else, whats your day job? you must be an artist of some kind?

THE CHIEF
16-02-2007, 16:12
As far as smack talking about killing my poor dragon before its done, don't make me mark the rider with tzeentch! golden eye of tzeentch and a staff of change.

I think you should. Tzeentch is probably the most fitting for this dragon IMO. I am totally hooked on this thread - I keep hoping for more updates all the time! :cool:

pox
16-02-2007, 23:33
no idea where the scarebear is from, just a random internet image I found. I don't think its from the demonic toys series, but I haven't seen the earlier ones any time recently. (just bought demonic toys vs. puppetmaster, starring cory feldman. man, that was a stinker.) its a placeholder for my soon-to-be avatar, I made a "frank" bunny mask from donnie darko for a friend a few years back. when I can get a good pic of that, that should be my new avatar.

I am a breakfast cook/caterer by day, and I work at my local gaming store at night. I run and manage all the gaming events with the owner, and make everyone paint there stuff. (got a "horde" demo tonight, I hope its better then warmachine...)

thanks for the compliment on the design, I spent a lot of work planning this thing out, and have had to re-do the overall plans three times now. there's just no way to convey how much time I spend in the planning phase, its easily twice the time spent sculpting. (which is around 250 hours at my closest estimate.)

alrighty, I'm gonna hopefully update before Sunday, but Sunday at the latest!

McNuggets
17-02-2007, 21:04
That claw is amazing.... it looks like the shapes you get in really old trees, albeit scary chaos tainted trees :)

pox
18-02-2007, 00:49
wow, I got in a day early with this update. my horde demo went quickly, and I got the wrong time it was supposed to start. ahh well, it seemed to be an ok game, I picked up trollbloods, something to practice painting on.
on with the update! the mounting of the wings destroyed buckets of detail. it was a huge fiasco, and the only part of the model (so far) to get FUBAR. anyway, I had to get creative to cover the bits of damaged sections. this is the first layer of the now "skinned" dragon.

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n109/conversionman/armoverview.jpg
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n109/conversionman/armdetail.jpg
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n109/conversionman/detail.jpg

and, a small shot from the rear, I like how the spacing from the arm to the body turned out.
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n109/conversionman/rear.jpg

I got all afternoon and evening to sculpt tomorrow, so new pics soon!

Siromcyre
18-02-2007, 02:14
Looking ever more awesome by the second, you certainly have oodles of determination and perseverance.

pox
26-02-2007, 07:27
wow, I really like the new sub-folders for project logs, its really easy to find what your looking for now!

ok, so no up-date for a while. I had some real-life stuff come up, and I dropped it.

for those of you not paying attention:

I DROPPED IT!!!! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !! ! ! ! !

I was gonna get a pic of it on the floor, but I couldn't bring myself to do it. It has made it easier to work on (when I started again) cause I can add the broken pieces on after I've finished all the under detail. I'm back on track, and getting a bit of steam back.

I got all the basic stuff back on (and re-seamed where the cracks were still showing) and have been giving the high polish treatment to the whole model, finishing sections with their final level of detail. not a lot of pics, but heres a few:

I re-set the wingtips, giving them quite a huge change in their outer curve. the model now fits in the required 18 inch size limit for the golden daemon.
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n109/conversionman/resetwing.jpg

I got the second layer of detail on the tentacle hand, with the hand itself making an appearance. I also started adding the trophy alcoves to the base, working them around the tentacle for a "natural" feel.
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n109/conversionman/tentdetail.jpg

the claw has its final level of detail, save for the thumb.
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n109/conversionman/lefthand2.jpg
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n109/conversionman/lefthand1.jpg

I should have it totally re-assembled by the end of the week, I expect to have it finished sculpted by march 6th.

(I hope that date is right, because I am TIRED of sculpting this damn thing, I want to work on pretty much ANY model but this one right now, haha.)

Rabid Bunny 666
26-02-2007, 09:37
You dropped it? :eek:

Bloody school blocking Photobucket :mad:

Braad
26-02-2007, 12:26
If you throw it on the floor because you don't like it anymore, you can also send it to me ofcourse ;)

But I can imagine that you really feel up to something new by now. I already have this problem when painting savage boar boyz (which takes about 10 hours a piece).

Detail on the claw is really looking good.

Cadian 21st
26-02-2007, 17:35
- I really love the 'eye' details on the hand, and the stabbity fingers :D!

Despoiler
26-02-2007, 18:32
Looking really impressive, although the base seems a tad small.

Mozzamanx
26-02-2007, 20:29
Jesus Christ, that looks awesome =O

Best model I have ever seen, cant wait to see painted

fleshcross
26-02-2007, 23:16
Hey buddy, damn that's looking fine. That claw certainly screams "Soul Calibre" to me, but that's a good thing. The tentacle arm is looking really good now that it has some detail on it, glad it's not just a boring tentacle (not that you could make something boring). And the wings look fantastic, very menacing.

Aelyn
26-02-2007, 23:30
Looking really impressive, although the base seems a tad small.

The base has to be that size, in Fantasy a dragon always has a 50mm base.

Despoiler
27-02-2007, 00:15
i thought that was a minimum size i.e. in 40k you can mount any model on any size base so long as its not smaller than the base it comes with

e.g. you can't mount a terminator on a 25mm base as they come with 40mm bases BUT if you wanted to you could mount a terminator on a 60mm base as its bigger than the 40mm base it comes with. the down side being the bigger the base you mount it on the higher the number of models that can fit around it.

can't this be done in fantasy?

pox
27-02-2007, 02:36
not from a rules point of view. I'm sure I could have gotten away with a giant size base (50x75) or chariot (50x100) but when I got the basing rock, it just fit. its very balanced, and I think the base adds to its scale.

Pekel
27-02-2007, 02:43
I agree with the base choice. The composition of the piece is excellent, and the base certainly exagerrates the massive size of the beast.

Loving it, and can't wait to see what you're capable of with a brush.

pox
01-03-2007, 06:17
ok, I got the thing nearing completion. I want to do up dates, but alot of it is just the final level of detail, so theres not gonna be anything huge till I re-mount the heads and tails. at this point I'm gonna be doing bits everyday, just not sure if peeps want to see every little last touch, let me know if the up-dates should wait for something really new. the final layers are the most important imho, and the least exciting. anyways, on with the show. the claw hand is finished, heres all the pics.
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n109/conversionman/hand1.jpg
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n109/conversionman/hand2.jpg
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n109/conversionman/hand3.jpg
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n109/conversionman/hand4.jpg

the claw is so freakishly huge, its hard to get a good shot that makes it look normal. it looks great on the dragon though, I'm just not mounting anything till the whole body has the last layers of detail.

pox
01-03-2007, 06:25
I got the next level done for the exposed wing, its looking good. All it needs now is general clean-up of the detail (the necrotic flesh is a bit chunky), and a few ropes of flesh straitened out.
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n109/conversionman/rotdetail2.jpg
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n109/conversionman/rotdetail1.jpg

got the tentacle arm finished, all I need on the body now is the wing joints fleshed out, and the body filled. gonna be tricky to finish the western side. because I'm definitely going riderless, I decided to drop the chaos armour idea. that leaves having to do scales, not sure what direction i'm gonna go with them. I like the explosion of spikes on that side of the body, gonna start with that as the texture base for the "scales." my only rule will be they need to contrast and compliment the water sides' scales.

rikard
01-03-2007, 08:47
OW! I share your pain, I dropped a mini once altough I had only spent about an hour on it, but still they smudged and ruin work was enough to give me a pink fit.

Looks absolutely awesome I hope there wasn't too much that needed fixing. I also have to agree with you on JB's warhammer artwork I love it to bits (especially his Lizardman artwork he did for the 5th edition book its inifnitly better than the 6th)

Zodiac
01-03-2007, 16:12
you are one sick mother-f*cker ( :D lol ) .. that thing is just..

so..

AMAZING!!!! [dice0]

Count these scores up and you've got the awesomeness factor from 1-10 !

EDIT: That is no bad score for something that's supposed to be beneath 10 !:D

Cadian 21st
01-03-2007, 21:23
- Fantastic! I love the claw and the wing!

Saulot
02-03-2007, 01:42
wow! just awesome!!! :eek:
i love the way the claw hand looks like a chaos dragon by itself!

wow.

pox
05-03-2007, 07:43
next batch of final details

first up, horn explosion to match the super-chaos wing
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n109/conversionman/horns.jpg

next is the second layer on the wing-mouth. its gonna be the same texture as the lamprey mouth/ new scales
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n109/conversionman/wingscales.jpg

and finally the new scales. they are a cross between barnacles and broken crab shell. a lot closer to my original ideas for the texture.

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n109/conversionman/newscale1.jpg
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n109/conversionman/newscale2.jpg

funny story about the scales. A friend of mine that hasn't seen the dragon in a bit rolls up to me while I'm working on it at the game store. he picks it up, stares at it a bit, then sets it down. cool as hell, he says "I really like the skin texture, its good. the scales are s@#% though, fix them."
"whats wrong with them?" sez I.
he just looks me in the eye, and says "they're crap, you can do better, fix them." and smoothly walks away.

I hate my friends.

there are no innocents in this story, it was brandon, berate him for me if you see him.

Sir Phobos
05-03-2007, 07:47
Next time you see one of his SoB just pick one up and be like "Hey, you know what, this would be alot cooler if it was a giant Chaos Dragon, oh what you don't have one of those, oh my bad.." and just walk off.

Rabid Bunny 666
06-03-2007, 12:33
Looking cool, forgot to post before.

That claw is looking slick.


funny story about the scales. A friend of mine that hasn't seen the dragon in a bit rolls up to me while I'm working on it at the game store. he picks it up, stares at it a bit, then sets it down. cool as hell, he says "I really like the skin texture, its good. the scales are s@#% though, fix them."
"whats wrong with them?" sez I.
he just looks me in the eye, and says "they're crap, you can do better, fix them." and smoothly walks away.


For his birthday, just buy him Captain Cortez or the new posessed :evilgrin: he'll be completely outclassed :D

pox
07-03-2007, 07:07
got the rest of the right wing done, and I'm really happy with the results. the only problem may be with overall visual balance, may need more mutating on the left side. gonna see what it needs soon, because I'm mounting parts tomorrow!!! cant wait, this thing is KILLING me, I wanna work on something else.

the pics are kinda hard to make out, theres a mass density of tentacles, spikes, and horns. it looks fine from a distance, I just wanted to get the close up shots for details' sake.
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n109/conversionman/newback.jpg
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n109/conversionman/wingspines.jpg
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n109/conversionman/wingspines2.jpg

more updates tomorrow, I got a huge chunk of time to work on it.

Cadian 21st
07-03-2007, 09:45
- I love those wings! The barnacle scales don't really look barnacle-y enough, from that shot... We'll see once they're painted. Are you texturing the "Water snake" side to be like an eel's scales? That'd be sweet, IMO.

Son-Of-Sparda
14-03-2007, 20:44
Crikey, I leave the forums for a month- and look what happens!

Awesome work as always... :D

THE CHIEF
14-03-2007, 20:59
Come on then...MORE UPDATES! :D

pox
15-03-2007, 02:50
sorry for the delay, lots of stuff keepin' me down. I keep trying to sprint towards the finish line with this, and keep getting mentally exhausted. it won't happen again, slow and steady from here on out. on top of that, I may have a very attractive job offer, I just have to move to the middle of nowhere and run a vacation resort restaurant. thats kinda got my brain occupied at the moment. enough about my boring life, on with the show! first up, I got the maggot done, and mounted the tail.
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n109/conversionman/1.jpg
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n109/conversionman/2.jpg

I also got his massive claw on, it took about 4 tries to get the pose right.
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n109/conversionman/3.jpg
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n109/conversionman/4.jpg

2 more pics in a sec.

Rogue 7
15-03-2007, 02:59
God, if you're even half as good a painter as you are a modeler, this thing will be a shoo-in for a Slayer Sword. It's unbelievable!

Strelok
15-03-2007, 03:08
If I typed the expletives I was thinking to describe just how good this is, it might rival some liber chaotica.... this is incredible. Beyond my comprehension. Do you do any freelance stuff for GW?

pox
15-03-2007, 03:10
here's two fun pictures, one of his head and claw, and kind of a big general shot. (been doin' too many close-ups)
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n109/conversionman/5.jpg
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n109/conversionman/6.jpg


I have been looking at casting stuff. I have decided that although it can be used to further my own sculpting needs, I will not be pursuing any kind of casting for the purposes of selling them. I have two reasons.

The first is I have decided I don't know enough about art and sculpting. I am figuring out how to fix this. either formal or informal, my art "skill set" is getting a major boost over the next two years. I don't have all the skills I need to be successful, I still don't know how to draw enough to even work from concept sketches. so, its back to school for me, at the very least it will speed the process of sculpting a mini along.

The second is I have been learning about intellectual properties rights, and have decided to stay within the "spirit" of said laws. if I sculpt a mini thats clearly inspired from GW, I wont cast it. its not the law I fear, its reputation. I would rather sell my own designs and fail, then sell theirs and succeed. most of the detail is directly from GW books, and It will stay a one-time piece. I do not want to meet my idols in a courtroom, or have the first mail transaction with GW to be a "cease and desist" letter.

so basically, I will cast one day, but not soon. Its still a great compliment for everyone to ask me to do it, and I'm still grateful for the request. without it, I would not have learned so much. thanks again everyone!
-mark

Catferret
15-03-2007, 03:26
God damn that thing is beautiful! In a really hideous way.... :D

Nice work on that thing. Try not to let it drive you crazy.

I have been following this thread for a long time now and was secretly hoping you WOULDN'T cast it. You have poured your heart and soul into that piece and it should remain yours alone. Don't let others take the easy option! Sorry to all the people who did want it cast for sale but we should all put in the time and effort to learn to sculpt as well as this man, not steal his hard work.

Thank you for all the inspiration though!

Strelok
15-03-2007, 03:36
Haha, I totally agree Catferret, but the extra income from the option of freelancing, with skills as good as afore-demonstrated, could be nice. Or simply the goodness of contributing to help your fellow, less-than-virtuosic gamers.

Zothos
15-03-2007, 03:38
Absolutely incredible.......There are no words I can come up with to effectively communicate how impressive I find your work.

Bravo~

Grenswick
15-03-2007, 05:33
Mark, you can't move away someplace desolate, who's going to lend me their sweet Dvds? and are you gonna let Russ run amok around here without you? Anyway, beautiful work as ever. Keep it up.

pox
15-03-2007, 06:06
@ grenswick: soon, you can rent them from paradise lost. but all that aside, the gig is in lake almanor(sp?) so the fortress is still my closest gaming store.

@rogue 7:I'm not a bad painter, but I'm not an upper class one either. I'm planning on painting up around 20 models to my absolute best before I try and paint him. theres gonna be a big gap between when its sculpted and when its painted. (I'm a speed painter at heart, I have around 1,500 finished mini's, and do a lot of painting for other players.)

@strelok: I'm gonna be doing minotaurs next, its part of my learn-to-sculpt plan. one of the things I'm gonna do is make the rough armatures for the beasties, then cast the armatures to sculpt the final details on. stuff like that I wont mind selling, just not fully finished GW style mini's. so all is not lost, for the aspiring sculptors at least. I'm not sure GW hires freelancers, I thought it was all in-house. I'm not saying I would pass on the opportunity to sculpt professionally, I'm just saying I don't want to pursue it until I have a better skill set. I'd rather spend that time honing my skills then trying to get cash for them just yet.

@catferret: yeah, I realized the only thing that casting it would do for me right now would be to make money, and its just not the most time-effective way for me to make cash right now. plus, as you pointed out, I already got one :)

Strelok
15-03-2007, 07:14
As an aspiring sculptor myself, I'd have to say you are definitely an inspiration to me. I'll keep watch on your work.

75hastings69
15-03-2007, 12:52
I can't wait to see some paint laid down on this beast. I think you should be renamed "Daniel Cockersall the 2nd"!!!!!

Fantastic work.

Warlord Wyquix
15-03-2007, 13:07
This thing is absolutly amazing. If I had even half the skill in sculpting you have I'd be over the moon. Awaiting some painted shots of this leviathan!

Great work
W.W.

Greblord
15-03-2007, 13:14
[insert multiple superlatives here]

You're a true talent. The pictures have me itching to take a brush to it :)

Keep up the great work.

beefpizza
15-03-2007, 14:06
The overall shot of the dragon is so nice! I've been lost in the incredible detail, but the overall composition is very nice too! IMO sculptors can take a lesson from Cezane and should spend 90% of their time working on the composition. For sculptors this means sketching, gathering reference photos, and making the armature work exactly the way you want it too. Its good that you are willing to take the time and effort to learn these things.
Great work!

The Keeper of Secrets
15-03-2007, 17:44
Ug...urrr...um...

.....

errr...

*brain still recovering from the awesomeness of this model*

......

ug

kyussinchains
15-03-2007, 21:56
stunning! absolutely stunning!

get some paint slapped on the thing!!

The Dark One
15-03-2007, 22:02
omfg that thing is brilliant

wildkarrde0
15-03-2007, 22:38
glkfytjcjhbhgs3w67utusrwzjtfusrtwgyugrfilegr fgjhfvjhagf askg ajgflasfjg alsjgjsfg

Ah now i remember how to spell wargamers every wish they 0.5% of the talent needed to create a modal like this

fleshcross
15-03-2007, 22:46
Looking good Mark, that composition is very nice once you see it all together. Maybe I should sculpt a Zombie Dragon and they can duel...

Nostro
16-03-2007, 08:55
And I remember when I saw the first pages, at the beginning of the project, I thought “Unimpressed. It just looks like a half-rotten snake with exposed intestines. A very meh sculpt.”

I have rarely been proven so wrong.

Braad
16-03-2007, 11:58
Somehow I can't think of any comments on your sculpting, other than: amazing...

Was wondering, could you perhaps place some normal sized models (like warriors on foot or perhaps a normal dragon) besides it sometime, so we can get a good size comparison.

Nostro
16-03-2007, 12:01
There is somewhere around the 5th page a WIP with empire knights next to it. The thing is huge.

EDIT: well I was right on the average:
Page 3 (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1169564&postcount=43) and Page 7 (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1280737&postcount=139)

Braad
16-03-2007, 14:54
True, I remember now.
But anyway, it would be more cool to see it compared to the nearly complete model, since it's an itchy bit bigger now with wings...

But perhaps I should wait until its completely done.

meowser
16-03-2007, 20:46
dude that looks like it's reached a very rewarding point of completion. cant wait to see you slap some paint on that puppy
p.s. mindblowing work. kudos

anselminus
16-03-2007, 22:14
very very very goood job!!!!!

pox
16-03-2007, 22:55
thanks everyone for their compliments, I can't thank you guys enough. Its not quite done (still needs the second head, lol) and its gonna be a bit before I can paint it. I'll start a new thread for boosting my painting skills, then finish with a "painted chaos dragon" thread. I cannot wait.

I can honestly say I would not have completed it, had I not started a thread here for it. you guys drive me forward, and make me go just a little bit more each day. alright, I gotta go work at my local gaming store, enough gushing. I have a quick demo to run, then back to sculpting! might have pics by tomorrow.

pox
17-03-2007, 07:07
ok, I got a few new pics, but I warn ya', my camera skills need work. I got this camera for this thread, so I'm still very new to photography. I forgot to adjust the white balance to accommodate the florescent lights at work, so these are kinda blown out. I had a blast at the store tonight doing the "scale" photos that were requested, so I'll post the sculpting I did first, then the scale shots. so I got the first layer of his neck done, its mostly just the spike placement, and the base texture for the scales.
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n109/conversionman/neck1.jpg
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n109/conversionman/neck2.jpg


after all the nice reviews, I was just dying to work on it, so I carted it to the shop. kinda hard to transport, but I need to sculpt when the mood strikes me. second update in a second.