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Necro Angelo
10-11-2006, 20:51
Ok, this will make me sound like a noob, but I've been wondering, with Battle Standard Bearers it says that you can give a hero a banner for +25 points; it also says that you can give it a magical banner. Now, do you have to pay the 25 points THEN buy the magical banner, or can you just but the magical banner for it's points value instead?

For example, would a Wood Elf Noble with the Royal Banner of Ariel (100 points, 75 point for the Noble) be 175 or 200 points?

DeathlessDraich
10-11-2006, 20:54
200 pts.
25 pts to achieve BSB status and then magical banners in addition to this.

Festus
10-11-2006, 20:55
Hi

You have to pay for the upgrade to a BSB first, usually +25 points (comes with a mundane banner), then you may further upgrade the banner to be a magical one (for the appropriate points cost).

Festus

Necro Angelo
10-11-2006, 21:02
Ah ok thanks, makes sense I guess. I was just confused because I always thought the bearer was just a hero with a battle standard, apart from the other limitations.

EvC
10-11-2006, 22:27
Well the bearer is just a hero with a battle standard, as you say...

squiggoth
10-11-2006, 22:54
... But to become a hero with a battle standard and do all kinds of nifty battle standard tricks (allowing re-rolls on break tests and granting extra combat resolution and such), he must buy a rag on a stick first, and that's the 25 pts. you pay.
Any magical effects added to the 25 pt. rag-on-a-stick cost extra points. ;)

Flame
10-11-2006, 22:57
200 pts.
25 pts to achieve BSB status and then magical banners in addition to this.


Wrong, it will actually cost 190, as Woodies only pay 15 points to upgrade a noble to a BSB.

Squire Jager
11-11-2006, 08:43
Well I think the rag on a stick is most always worth it. I have never been upset by buying th at for my Empire, or Dwarfs, or even once Ogre Kingdoms. even if you dont give him a magic banner he then can have magic items and can add more than banner punch to a unit.

Necro Angelo
11-11-2006, 09:55
...I'm pretty sure it's +25, just like any other race. But I'll look it up later, huh.

Atrahasis
11-11-2006, 11:38
...I'm pretty sure it's +25, just like any other race. But I'll look it up later, huh.

No, it is definitely 15.

Necro Angelo
11-11-2006, 11:43
Does he still get the plus 1 combat resolution or do you have to buy the battle standard for 25 points as seperate wargear?

Gorbad Ironclaw
11-11-2006, 12:13
Err, what are you talking about?

If he is a BSB, he is a BSB, no matter the price of the upgrade, they all follow the same rules.

Necro Angelo
11-11-2006, 12:20
...what I mean is, are you paying 25 points (or 15 or watever) to make him a battle standard bearer thus giving any unti within 12 of him morale re-rolls, but do you also have to pay 25 points for the banner in the common magic items list to make him give a +1 combt resolution, or does he just give that bonus included with the points cost- if so do other magic banners from espective army book magic item lists not give a +1 combat resolution?

Festus
11-11-2006, 12:30
Hi

The Banner bonus is included (again in 7th) in addition to the re-roll ability.

Your BSB carries a banner, so he adds +1 to any combat he is involved in AND lets friendly units in 12" re-roll their break tests.

All for just 25 points...


Festus

Gorbad Ironclaw
11-11-2006, 13:21
The bsb is a banner, so gives +1 cr. Any magical effects from a banner is on top of that.

ZomboCom
11-11-2006, 15:48
The BSB carries a normal banner, so +1 CR. He also has the BSB ability on top of that, which allows break test re-rolls within 12". All of this comes for 25 points.

If you wish, you may buy him a magic banner on top of that, such as the warbanner, which would generate an additional +1 CR, for a total of +2.

The downside of a BSB is that he cannot carry a shield or use any two handed weapons, and (usually) if he has a magical banner he cannot have any other magic items.

Necro Angelo
11-11-2006, 18:52
Ah cool I was wondering if the effects were accumalative; and you'd have +3 for a unit standard bearer and battle standard bearer with war banner in addition to nything else, right?

Gorbad Ironclaw
11-11-2006, 18:58
Correct, that would be +3 CR just from the banners.

Shaitan
13-11-2006, 08:01
Hmmm.... I'm thinking of some nasty combo's now :)

Avian
13-11-2006, 12:18
It is probably easier if you think of the initial 25 (or whatever) points as the cost of the impressive stick you hang the magic banner from. The stick gives +1 CR and the re-roll ability and then if you have a magic banner hanging from it you gain the bonus for that as well. ;)

Crazy Harborc
13-11-2006, 19:40
In WAB, I always take one, in WHFB, I normally do not. Most opponents don't take one either. Just the way it is around this area I guess.

The points spent for the rag on a stick take away a shield save and make the hero banner bearer a target:confused:

Gorbad Ironclaw
13-11-2006, 21:48
I always take one for my Vampires. A Thrall with a banner is crazy good. I'd bring one with my Dark Elves too if I had the character slots for it. I think thats the real problem in Warhammer. Because of the need for magic defence, and the limit on how many heroes you can bring, it can be hard to fit in the BSB.

bob monkey
14-11-2006, 08:59
well isnt like a battle standard like needed in some armies, even if it isnt its a freaken awesome addition in an army such as the lizarmens banners extra dice rolls to run down enemies...or fear causing banners its great.

devolutionary
14-11-2006, 09:06
Bretonnians require a BSB, and as such have 1 more hero slot than most other armies (I won't say all, because I don't know that for sure ;) ). You have a minimum of one Knights of the Realm unit and one Battle Standard Bearer Paladin.

Kotobuki
14-11-2006, 14:26
The downside of a BSB is that he cannot carry a shield or use any two handed weapons, and (usually) if he has a magical banner he cannot have any other magic items.

I feel it should be noted that this is not correct. There is no rule in 7th edition that specifically precludes a BSB from using a two-handed weapon or a shield.

If a BSB happens to come with a two handed weapon as standard, or a shield as standard, or purchases a magical two handed weapon, they are very much allowed to use those items.

As it stands currently, no BSB (that I'm aware of) is allowed to purchase additional equipment, and none come with shields. This is what stops them from being allowed to use Shields, and most two handed weapons. The Black Orc BSB does come with a great weapon, and two choppas (I'm fairly certain) and so may use them in combat.

DeathlessDraich
14-11-2006, 16:40
Well. Kotobuki, that sent me scampering into the O&G book and it seems you're right.

Festus
14-11-2006, 17:01
Hi

Yes, as of now, he is right.

If this is an oversight or intentional will not be clear until an -possible- errata or FAQ. But it is just a little thing and no problem at all.

Festus

Crazy Harborc
14-11-2006, 18:47
BUT, do the individual armybooks allow heroBSBs to have/take a shield and or great weapon after becoming BSBs? Don't forget heros/lords do not normally come with shields.

Festus
14-11-2006, 18:58
No Armybook I know of allows a combination that wouldn't go with one hand holding the banner - apart from:

Lizzies (Slaan)
WE (Bow)
O&G (BO with great weapon)

correct me if I am wrong, though...

Festus

bob monkey
15-11-2006, 05:32
yeh im pretty sure u cant have any other magical weapons and cannot use a two handed weapon or a shield if u have a standard for liz.

TheWarSmith
15-11-2006, 12:57
some armies have different costs for it. I believe Bretonnian upgrades to BSB are free(i'm gonna feel like an idiot if i'm wrong!!)

John Thazer
15-11-2006, 13:09
No Armybook I know of allows a combination that wouldn't go with one hand holding the banner - apart from:

Lizzies (Slaan)
WE (Bow)
O&G (BO with great weapon)

correct me if I am wrong, though...

Festus

And HE BSB with Swordmaster Honour...

Tutore
15-11-2006, 13:19
He BSB cannot take any non magical equipment but the armor. You could theoretically take the Swordmaster honour, but it doesn´t make sense to create something (two handed weapon for BSB) you cannot do otherwise.

Avian
15-11-2006, 14:51
Ogre BSBs can have two different double-handed magical weapons and the preliminary FAQ has not even hinted that there is something wrong with that.

If we are considering missile weapons as two-handed as well, then heaps of armies can get that (Dragon Bow, Lifetaker, Asp Bow, etc. etc.)

Flying Elephant
15-11-2006, 18:44
Regarding the Woody BSB price, it is only a 15 point upgrade, but that is because the character must sacrifice their free longbow (valued at 10 points).

All of the army books I have simply state that a BSB cannot take any extra weapons or a shield. The HE book specifically says any extra mundane weapons. If someone is willing to pay for a magic item, I've never met anyone who had a problem with a non two handed weapon on a BSB (i.e. magic lance on a bret, seems like a clever way to get around the restrictions). However, a HE BSB with swordmaster could get the Honour, but could not get the weapon it comes with as it states they can't take any mundane gear.

John Thazer
15-11-2006, 19:54
Regarding the Woody BSB price, it is only a 15 point upgrade, but that is because the character must sacrifice their free longbow (valued at 10 points).

All of the army books I have simply state that a BSB cannot take any extra weapons or a shield. The HE book specifically says any extra mundane weapons. If someone is willing to pay for a magic item, I've never met anyone who had a problem with a non two handed weapon on a BSB (i.e. magic lance on a bret, seems like a clever way to get around the restrictions). However, a HE BSB with swordmaster could get the Honour, but could not get the weapon it comes with as it states they can't take any mundane gear.

Well that's more in realm of rules lawering but technically HE BSB is not buying mundane greatweapon, it's buying an Honour and the greatsword comes with the Honour, technially there's nothing stopping BSB using this 2 handed weapon. And we say he cannot buy the greatweapon when purchasing the Honour than we are saying that the HE BSB is simply not allowed to buy that Honour, which is not true since it says that HE BSB may buy Honours. So it's either can buy whole package or buy nothing, I don't see anything in between.

EvC
15-11-2006, 20:51
Two distinct interpretations of the same rule, either seems valid and reasonable, so hopefully it won't turn into page after page of semantic whining. I'd hope that someone would let me take the Swordmaster honour for a HE BSB, but if they opposed it I'd just have a back-up cheese-**** to replace it with :)

Crazy Harborc
16-11-2006, 00:51
A BSB taking an honor (that includes a free great weapon)?? Then, using the great weapon while acting as the BSB.....even tho they can't hold a shield AND that army banner......Sorry, don't think so.;)

Major Defense
16-11-2006, 02:44
Quite sorry but you are all quite wrong about any BSB in any army using that hand for anything other than holding up the banner. The trouble is proving it to you now, isn't it? GW took a lot of their PDFs down from the site pending rules changes with the new edition but IIRC there is a PDF that includes the "gifts from the gods" or whatever they were called (that are really 40K relics) from that were awarded to certain armies after that campaign I can't remember the name of...well in that 2-page document they included a little FAQ that more clearly states that they don't intend for the BSB to do anything with that hand but hold a banner. Thanks to anyone who can pull up that file. I'm sure there's a link to it in the thread about this I read over a year ago on this same forum.

Kotobuki
16-11-2006, 04:40
That rule also applies to the basic rules of 6th edition warhammer. Since we are no longer on the 6th edition, that ruling ceases to apply.

Since it is known to GW that the way the rule was written in the last edition was ambiguous, and they had to clarify it, we can only assume that they've written the rule this time around as it is intended.

That is, of course, if we are to assume anything at all. However, if we are NOT to assume anything (which would be the proper course of action) the rules state only that the character may not buy additional equipment. There are NO current rules that say a BSB cannot use a two handed weapon.

Major Defense
17-11-2006, 05:01
That rule also applies to the basic rules of 6th edition warhammer. Since we are no longer on the 6th edition, that ruling ceases to apply.By that same flawed logic all of the army books which are 6th edition no longer apply. What's that you say? GW announced that the old books still apply to the new rules until they are rewritten? That's great but where does it say that documents other than the 6th edition BRB no longer apply? It doesn't? Hmm...


Since it is known to GW that the way the rule was written in the last edition was ambiguous, and they had to clarify it, we can only assume that they've written the rule this time around as it is intended.Intended. By GW. In the same way that they clarified it in the last edition.


That is, of course, if we are to assume anything at all. However, if we are NOT to assume anything (which would be the proper course of action) the rules state only that the character may not buy additional equipment.Does it say that in the new BRB? Care to quote it where it says, "the character may not buy additional equipment"? Or does it not say anything at all about equipment restrictions for the BSB and the only thing we have to work from are the previous rules which clearly indicate that GW never intended for BSBs to use two-handed weapons?


There are NO current rules that say a BSB cannot use a two handed weapon.That is just a falsehood until you can show GW stating that the FAQs are all void. If you are really so horny for Swordmaster BSBs then make a house rule but please don't try to paint it as tournament legal with such a weak argument.

Atrahasis
17-11-2006, 10:22
That is just a falsehood until you can show GW stating that the FAQs are all void. If you are really so horny for Swordmaster BSBs then make a house rule but please don't try to paint it as tournament legal with such a weak argument.

The current errata can be found on the GW website.

If nothing in the rulebook, high elf book, or those errata say that BSBs cannot use two handed weapons, then they can.

Applying Q&As that were issued under 6th ed rules to the 7th ed ruleset makes absolutely no sense, as I'm sure I could stitch a few of the answers in various places around to allow me to continue to lap around.

Major Defense
17-11-2006, 16:29
The current errata can be found on the GW website.And they left it up there for a reason, doncha think?

http://us.games-workshop.com/games/gaming/treasures.pdf

For people w/o Acrobat:
"Q: Battle Standard Bearers cannot use weapons that require two hands or normal shields, but they have access to magic items. Can a Battle Standard Bearer be given a magical shield or a macic weapon that requires two hands?
A: No. If they cannot use the mundane version of an item, they cannot use their magic equivalent. In other words, they have to devote one hand to keep the banner up and cannot do anything else with it."


If nothing in the rulebook, high elf book, or those errata say that BSBs cannot use two handed weapons, then they can.But something in the errata does say that BSBs cannot use two handed weapons. Are you trying to disagree with me by agreeing with me?


Applying Q&As that were issued under 6th ed rules to the 7th ed ruleset makes absolutely no sense, as I'm sure I could stitch a few of the answers in various places around to allow me to continue to lap around.Perhaps it doesn't make sense to you yet but thank the holy FSM for this forum and my opportunity to set you straight. You're using a 6th edition army book, aren't you? Well there's your precident.

I will take this back to my favorite old argument about the idiocy of rules lawyering. There is no rule in any GW book anywhere that says I can't smash all of your models with a hammer and throw their broken pieces at you. Claiming that the lack of a rule is the same as that rule's opposite being a rule is cyclical logic. In this case some of you are trying to take the farce one step further and claim that just because GW released a new rule book it means that all of their previous writings are null and void and you have carte blanche to make up the same interpretations that they corrected in the last edition. I'm simply not going to continue to debate this because the truths in this particular matter are literally self-evident and in print. If you still feel a need to twist a desired result from this conversation then please just treat it as a house rule and skip justifying it to me.

Festus
17-11-2006, 16:37
Hi

Nice to see that you are back ...

Perhaps it doesn't make sense to you yet but thank the holy FSM for this forum and my opportunity to set you straight. ...and still picking fights like you used to :rolleyes:
I will take this back to my favorite old argument about the idiocy of rules lawyering. There is no rule in any GW book anywhere that says I can't smash all of your models with a hammer and throw their broken pieces at you. Claiming that the lack of a rule is the same as that rule's opposite being a rule is cyclical logic.
...and still throwing the same smoke bombs... :wtf:

In this case some of you are trying to take the farce one step further and claim that just because GW released a new rule book it means that all of their previous writings are null and void and you have carte blanche to make up the same interpretations that they corrected in the last edition. I'm simply not going to continue to debate this because the truths in this particular matter are literally self-evident and in print. If you still feel a need to twist a desired result from this conversation then please just treat it as a house rule and skip justifying it to me.
Face it tiger: There is still quite a bit *in print* which isn't in the rules anymore. Being *in print* doesn't mean it is right or true, far from it.

May I advise you to read this thread in this matter: Skaven Weapon Teams can still not be targetted if within range of a parent unit, and the -old- errata even refers to the 5" rule, which does not exist anymore.:eyebrows:
Why? Because it is old and outdated, and the FAQ and erratae aren't valid anymore.

Well, whatever floats your particular boat...

Festus

T10
17-11-2006, 16:41
The limitations placed on the BSB are spelled out in each army book. In addition there are the general rules for magical items.

Oh, and welcome back, too!

-T10