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picantes pantelones
12-11-2006, 05:33
Just got back from an event held at the Warroom here in Atlanta...great store by the way... and a weird situation arose. It began with a flank charge from some goblin wolf riders into my thunderers.

WR
WR
WRTTTTTTTTTTT
WR
WR
Nothing odd here. Then in the goblin players regular movement phase a unit of night goblins approached and the fanactics triggered killing 7 of my thunderers.
Now the odd part. Where do the casualties come from? The left or right side of my unit? We always played that Who ever lost the models gets to pick which ones got killed. So should I take the ones from btb with the WR or should I take from the other side? IF I get to choose and I take from the engaged flank what happens to the wolf riders? Do they advance? Is it now a failed charge? If they do advance do they now hit the fanactics that popped out behind my unit? Whassup?
We played it by taking alternating models from each flank. Leaving the WR out of combat (no longer engaged) but in the same position that they had charged too. Ie no failed charge and no consolidation into my remaining models so he wouldnt have to hit his own fanatics.
end results
.......NGNGNGNNG
WR
WR
WR.......TTT
WR..F...F
WR...........F
Thanks.

Einholt
12-11-2006, 05:45
Hmm I wouldnt think it fair to remove units and deny the wolves a charge but I assume u had the gunline, so it was probably an error on ur opponents part for not moving gobos first and interupting the movement step before using the flank charge. I dont know if yo would forsee it anyway and remove thunderers from that side but even then at least he could have maneuvered them differently. Generally Ive taken units from left to right but..... I honestly have no clue as I cant find anything in rules. Best thing to do I guess is move them fanatic units first.

Griefbringer
12-11-2006, 07:29
I would say that once you are in base-to-base contact with enemy (ie. close combat), the models that are actually touching the enemy should be the last ones to be removed - so you should start removing models from the unengaged end.

Though I am left wondering what to do if the thunderer unit had been engaged by two units of wolf riders, one from each end.

Festus
12-11-2006, 08:19
Hi

1st: The Goblin player chooses where his Fanatics go.

2nd: IIRC the Fanatics hits are distributed like shooting hits, so the enemy chooses which models die (if there is other than r'n'f).

3rd: Casualties come from the back rank and from unengaged positions if possible, in your case from the right of the line.

4th. Charges happen before remaining movement, and if the charge was successful, contact has been made and close combat will be fought.

In conclusion:

The casualties occur at the right end off the line, the Gobbos stay in contact. As hits are no longer distributed between fighting units, the Thunderers will take it all.

Festus

enyoss
12-11-2006, 08:23
... it was probably an error on ur opponents part for not moving gobos first and interupting the movement step before using the flank charge.

Charges are always moved before normal movement though so he couldn't have done this I'm afraid.


I would say that once you are in base-to-base contact with enemy (ie. close combat), the models that are actually touching the enemy should be the last ones to be removed - so you should start removing models from the unengaged end.


I agree. Once you are in hand to hand that is it. For example, if a rocklobber lands on a unit in combat (by accident) and eliminates the front rank, the casualties are still taken from the rear ranks... the position and hand to hand status remain unchanged. So here, I would say casualties are taken from the unengaged end.

As for what would happen in the two wolf rider units case... a fudge methinks :)! I think it's one of those things that the rules just don't pick up very well.

Cheers,

enyoss

FatOlaf
14-11-2006, 13:28
Those Wolf Riders are always in combat regardless of the whereabouts of the GF casualties until the Thunderers are destroyed or run away (and most likely get caught by said wolfies).
:skull:

zak
14-11-2006, 13:44
Because the wolf riders are in combat with the thunderers, would both units take hits from the fanatics similar to shooting into combat?

Festus
14-11-2006, 13:58
Hi

Because the wolf riders are in combat with the thunderers, would both units take hits from the fanatics similar to shooting into combat?
As I already said:
Those rules have changed with 7th ed. As you may not shoot into combat (apart from Skaven, who have their own set of rules to handle this sitation), only templates can hit troops in combat. The rule to split and randomize any hits is gone in this edition.

Festus

DeathlessDraich
14-11-2006, 18:59
pg 31: If the unit is deployed in a single rank, then casualties are removed equally from both ends

This is under the Shooting chapter. However the section does not specify that it applies to shooting casualties only and I think most players use this same rule during combat.

pg 36: Diagram 36.2: "If combat inflicted on the Goblins cause the units to be separated, move the Archers unit forward"

It is the unit inflicting the wounds causing disengagement that has to be moved forward when units becoming disengaged.

From these 2 rules, your method of removing casualties from each end is right, Picantes, except you have to move the WR towards the Thunderers so that they remain in btb.

DeathlessDraich
14-11-2006, 19:09
Because the wolf riders are in combat with the thunderers, would both units take hits from the fanatics similar to shooting into combat?

The Goblin player decides the direction and can always choose a direction that avoids the Wolf riders but goes through the Thunderers.
If however, the fanatic has came from behind the Wolf riders and the Goblin player has opted to go through both the WR and T, then each unit takes D6S5 hits. Under the new rules these hits will not cause Panic even if more than 25% casulaties are inflicted because they are in combat and hence Immune.

Crazy Harborc
14-11-2006, 19:10
IF the units had already fought a round of HtH, then the fanatics wouldn't be allowed (where does it say they cannot be launched into units in HtH?) to fly into the unit. Fanatics are not during the shooting phase;) .

Festus
14-11-2006, 19:54
Hi

...where does it say they cannot be launched into units in HtH?
Does it say so in the new O&G book?

Festus

Crazy Harborc
14-11-2006, 22:35
Hi

Does it say so in the new O&G book?

Festus

I don't recall it saying either way, maybe I missed it.:confused: My opinion is they should not be "launched at" a HtH that has already fought a round (or more).

Festus
15-11-2006, 09:47
Hi

My opinion is ...Unfortunately (for some) this has no bearing on the rules... ;)

Festus

warlord hack'a
15-11-2006, 17:00
now here's another thought: suppose the thunderers are charged in both flanks and then get fanatics through them, then casualties caused will make the gunline smaller from both sides, efeectively moving both wolfrider units forward towards each other (squeezing the thunderers in between). What now happens if one of the wolfriders units move so far forward that it touches a fanatic which has stranded behind the thunderers. I assume it will take D6 impact hits (probably causing it to flee).

(Emerging) fanatics in combination with charges and flee reactions can cause very strange situations: recently I had a situation with fanatics already on the board, in my turn I declared a charge on the enemy with my chariot, the enemy unit chose to flee, then came the compulsory moves which moed a fanatic right in my charge path. I charged through it, got full hits which destroyed the chariot causign the threat for the enemy unit to stop existing. But the enemy was already on the run...

DeathlessDraich
15-11-2006, 17:30
now here's another thought: suppose the thunderers are charged in both flanks and then get fanatics through them, then casualties caused will make the gunline smaller from both sides, efeectively moving both wolfrider units forward towards each other (squeezing the thunderers in between). What now happens if one of the wolfriders units move so far forward that it touches a fanatic which has stranded behind the thunderers. I assume it will take D6 impact hits (probably causing it to flee).


A good observation.

It would seem that the WR take D6 hits as normal and then destroys the Fanatic with a further D6 hits to itself.
It does not flee or take a Panic test from 25% casualties because units in combat are Immune to Psych.

Another variation is if a Dwarf unit was forced to move closer because of casualties, it might release fanatics.

Sureshot05
15-11-2006, 17:46
That could lead to some nasty tricks, positioning a second unit behind your flanking long line of archers, which is loaded with fanatics. If for some lucky reason the archers held, but suffered casualties, then the wolves move closer and release the fanatics, causing serious damge to them, but safely ignoring the archers (due to the randomisation being gone).