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sigur
12-11-2006, 12:22
Hey there!

I got the Beasts of Chaos armybook as well as a regiment box back when they were released but, while having a soft spot for them and owning a small 5th edition-era force, never really started a BoC army. Now I had another look at the army book and once again toyed with the idea of starting a small BoC warband (you all know that these projects never stay "small";) ) so I wanted to ask you for your general opinions on BoC forces. I think I heard they are not very "competetive" on their own, is that true?

edit: oh, there's a thing I forgot to ask: How would you estimate the army in financial terms? Are BoC an expensive force or not?

Voltaire
12-11-2006, 12:33
What utter piffle. The only thing you need to do is to make your Beasts use the potential of the marks of Chaos and you have the basis for a fighting force that can take on nearly anything.

Remember, you have a load of large creatures - Ogres, Trolls & Minotaurs. These creatures make up for the lack of hitting power that is removed by Mortal units or Daemons.

There is nothing wrong, especially now considering that fleeing through an enemy unit now destroys the unit. This means that Beastmen have a good reason to ambush.

gortexgunnerson
12-11-2006, 14:03
I think beastmen are very very competetive much more so then any mortal army of choas which are generally poor. Beastmen are very strong army especially below 2000 points, their character selection isnt great but beastherds are awesome as are chariots. They also have access to a lot of nasties.

They have the advance of being cheap in points cost and strong on the attack, their special rules make them lethal against virtually everything. Most of the very strong tactical players I have meet at tournments are beasts players. As they require skillfuol play but are amazing when used correctly

Selsaral
12-11-2006, 17:51
Beasts do better for me than mortals or daemons, by far. I love 6th ed beasts. Playing beasts after trying mortals or daemons makes you feel like you had been playing in a straightjacket with concrete boots on. Beasts are SO much quicker and more manueverable. You'll get damn good at weaseling every psychology protection tactic in the game though hehe.

Bortus
12-11-2006, 18:46
I love the Beastmen! My buddy has an impressive Nurgle themed army and I'm still building mine based on Khorne. The models are great, they're fun to paint and they are a refreshing break to my usual Empire, Lizzies and O&G lists. While I am still trying to get to my 2500 dream army for now they are rockin' at 1500 and less games. Oh and did I say that the models are great?

sigur
12-11-2006, 18:47
Thanks for the opinions so far. I assume BoC have to rely on well-coordinated, multiple charges to win combat (since the raiders aren't really CR generators), just like DE, my first army. I guess I'll slap a list together some time soon. Shame that this army seems to have to rely on marks so much; I always saw the Beastmen as the force of raw, chaotic energies, but I get the point. Marks really add many goodies to the unit.

Are Chaos Trolls any good in games terms? I heard that O&G ones are not that good and of course they have to be "babysat". But Chaos Hounds seem to be a great unit for the low pts price. What about the Shaggoth? It seems to be quite expensive...

Sherlocko
12-11-2006, 18:57
BoC rocks and you have figured out the most of it already it seems. Just remember that with unruly and low LD you will find yourself in situations wich you can´t control on many occassions. (Just yesterday my herd with general fled of the table cause they missed and unruly-test and was forced to charge a giant and later failed the LD-test).

Trolls I haven´t tried out but with a doombull-general they can be rock hard I think. The problem is the low LD on general on the beast characters.

Shaagoth is way overpriced but in those matches when you get to have him break havoc on the opponents flank and just keep rolling all over the army it is well worth it. He just takes some time to learn how to use him.

Hope this isn´t against forum rules but if you are more intreseted in BoC you should visit http://s2.invisionfree.com/herdstone I think. :)

sigur
12-11-2006, 19:25
Oi, that's what I had planned to find, a BoC-specific forum. Thanks.;)

Sylass
12-11-2006, 19:38
@relying on marks

My own BoC army doesn't use any of the god-specific marks. It's 'pure' & undivided. I pretty much had the same thoughts about what my army should look like and undivided just suits them. My favourite aspect of Chaos when it comes to Beastmen. Not the best gaming-wise, but I just like the background. :)

My army uses lots of Beastherds (4 larger ones with characters and 2 smaller ones for ambush) and multiple small units of hounds (6 units 5 hounds, ambush or used to annoy the enemy, remove rank bonus).

The rest of the army is build out of 3 chariots, 6 Furies, a unit of 6 Centigors, 2 undivided Spawns, 1 Beastlord, 1 Wargor, 1 lvl2 and 1 lvl1 shaman (both equipped to fight in CC, the braystaff is just too good not to be used...). If I need the points I have a Centigor-Lord conversion based on Archaons horse to use as a Giant/Monstrosity or a Shaggoth and a unit of 'Centigor Knights' (basically armoured Centigors) I use as undivided Chaos Knights.

The army did well and was a lot of fun to play with during 6th edition (just prepare to get crushed by VC, Tomb Kings, Deamons or other armies using psychology as a weapon.).

I can't really comment about the 7th edition rules changes simply because I did not play a single game using the new rules yet. It doesn't look too shiney, but I guess it's not to bad either.

All in all it's a great army, that's for sure. :)

althathir
12-11-2006, 23:11
Beastmen are really solid. I don't think that you need to rely on marks as much as you think you do. They are a good horde army that is really benefiting from the new edition, plus their chariots are amazing.

Truckeye
13-11-2006, 01:59
With 7th edition, Nurgle becomes an awesome mark. Making L7 herds immune to fear is priceless.

MarcoPollo
13-11-2006, 02:57
BOC are not necessarily cheap to get a good 2k army. The box set contains 8 ungor and 12 gor models and you can change things around to get 10/10 split pretty easily. But this does not help as you want more ungors than gors. So you wind up having a few more gor models floating around. You can find things to do with some of the parts but some of the parts are also a waste.

Also, chariots are cheap pointwise but can run costly if you want to focus on them. So too are the monsters, they can be expensive ($30 Canadian for each dragon ogre).

I tend to supplement my BOC with some mortals and demons and it does really well in a MSU type style. I've seen some really cool and fluffy, chaos knights that use parts of gor models like a centigor to create a nice Chaos Knight.

My MSU army is one of the best that I play. It has a 10 game masacre streak going. My opponents are Bretonians, dark elves, dogs of war, wood elves, Lizards and VC/TK. But my army would be toast without marks for sure. Leadership is such a big issue that, as one person said, you get to know the rules for psychology inside out to be effective.

TheWarSmith
13-11-2006, 03:15
I assume you guys are referring to putting nurgle characters into beast herds right? That's the only way i can think to get fear immune beast herds.

BoC are FANTABULOUS!! I love how varied the army can be. They have one of the few units that is great at low numbers AND high numbers, just with different reasons.

It's not a mark dependent army as stated, because only 1 of its core units can even have marks, and generally chaos warriors dont' function that well in BoC armies(chaos knights do though)

BoC don't need to combine charges a lot of the time. It helps sure, but a 20 strong herd can often break units, as they often have +4 static combat resolution(they get +2 rank)

zak
13-11-2006, 08:44
Boc is probably one of the hardest armies out there. It has great movement (minimum of 5) and hits really hard as it is full of large beasts. If you ambush you can hit an enemy from both sides and there great for taking out warmachines. I have never used a mark with my Beasts army, which is pure beasts. A good number of herds, a unit of Bestigors, a couple of chariots, centigors, Dragon Ogres and a giant. It has rarely lost.

Shaitan
13-11-2006, 08:46
And don't forget that the Lore of Beasts is very nice.

Low casting values and some 'control-movement'-spells make this lore one of the best lores in the game.

And of course the Beast Herds are very nice. I use them in my Mortal army as flank protectors or as a unit for my Shaman to hide in.

sigur
13-11-2006, 16:43
I dusted off my old Beastmen miniatures today and after having a little look at the BoC armybook, I noticed that I have almost 1000pts of them furry lads!:cool: About 15 of them are the (very) old plastic ones, being equipped with funky mohawks, halbeards and shields. I'm planning to use them as Bestigors since that's what fits better than using them as Gors. The thing I'm still unsure about is wether or not to remove the shields (adding a bit of chainmail and shoulder pads to represent the heavy armour).

By the way, is there a way to convert Gors to Centigors and maybe saving a few bucks by doing so?

@Sylass: Thanks for the advise, using armoured Centigors as proxy units for Chaos Knights sounds like a very good idea. A unit of Chaos Knights among a beastheard always looks a bit weird. I guess I'll also use DE Harpies to proxy Furies.

Sherlocko
13-11-2006, 18:35
Check out the link I gave you on page 1 here. In the hobby section you will be able to find both centigors made from gors and horses and lovely armoured centigors, made from gors and horses. Even tough I think the centigormodels rock as they are. :)

For the shield on bestigors I think they are fine, it may represent the save they have got. Just don´t attach shields to gors and ungors because they are so much better without them. :)

TheWarSmith
13-11-2006, 18:52
2 hand weapons all the way baby.

OMG you have the mohawked ones? WOW!!!

sigur
13-11-2006, 19:01
@Sherlocko: Thanks, I just read tactics guides and some other stuff so far on the Herdstone, but I'll also have a look at those converted Centigors.

I already read that two handweapons is the way to go. Unfortunately, those 5th edition metal models (Gors and Ungors) come with a big knob for attaching the shield on their left wrists so I have to decide if I take off those shields, file off the knobs and make them hold a second handweapon in a very odd fashoin or if I just leave them as they are.

@TheWarSmith: Well, back then they were a great deal compared to the standard Gors. You got six plastic, single-pose Beastmen for the price of about three or four metal ones.

Selsaral
13-11-2006, 21:06
Thanks for the opinions so far. I assume BoC have to rely on well-coordinated, multiple charges to win combat (since the raiders aren't really CR generators), just like DE, my first army.

I find beast herds to be some of the best CR generators around. They are dirt cheap so you can grab unit strength easily (I usually field units of 25-30 as my main combat units, usually lead by a rough character), they can get 2 ranks, and can buy full command. So they are only one short against the best ranked-up units for static CR. Against chariots and other light skirmishers they almost always win. Just don't think they are a match for something like Censor Bearers. My jaw still hasn't stopped swinging from the last time Censor Bearers got at one of my beast herds. I think I lost the fight by more than 15, despite 2 ranks, unit strength, and a banner!

With 4 T and extra hand weapons they can hold their own in a fight. Add a rough character and they break most units they encounter. Which leads to my favorite part of beast herds: their 360 LOS. After you break and overrun a unit and find yourself on the other side of the enemy, unlike infantry you don't have to take a turn reforming to get LOS for another charge, you just spew at the enemy again immediately.

The beast item called the Braystaff of Darkoth has inflicted almost infinite pain on my enemies. During one battle, my huge (35-man strong) beast herd led by two characters broke and fled. The next turn they managed to rally, and in that magic phase used the braystaff to charge the unit chasing them. The charge was expectedly rough, they broke through that unit and won the game. My opponent was completely scandalized.

Angelwing
14-11-2006, 19:33
please please field them. i have not seen any beastmen in any army since 5th edition!
angelwing

Bloodknight
14-11-2006, 20:13
I´d say from my experience that BoC is the superior chaos book.

TheWarSmith
15-11-2006, 13:21
It's the best book IMO because where Hordes is 2/3 of chaos, Beasts is purely devoted to one of the 3 branches of chaos, and its dedication is beautiful.


BAHHHHHHHHH!!!!!

thepoodle
15-11-2006, 20:00
BOC are a really good army, not too popular and tons of choice.
does anybody know from which edition the mohawk w/ halberds guys date back from?

sigur
15-11-2006, 20:40
Most definitly somewhere around 4th/early 5th edition I estimate. Around that time GW released all these plastic single-pose, 6-minis boxes, starting with the Goblins and High Elves which were in the 4th edition starter box.

I tested the BoC in two games of Warbands last night (first game vs.Skaven, 200pts; second game vs.Chaos mortals [the non-horned ones:P], 350pts) and they're pretty much fun to play with. Gor Herds are a great core choice and the low leadership of them, even among the Chieftains, adds another very interesting aspect to the game (not used to that from playing DE).

During the movement phase, I felt a bit lame though because of my general dislike for skirmishing core units (Skinks, Dryads mainly). So playing BoC kinda reveals me as a hyprcite.:rolleyes: You're just SO mobile and fast with those units. This "pugnaciousness"(?) rule never really hurt me and I think it's a thing you just have to live with. In the second game, I tried to ambush a herd of 12 Gors and 7 Ungors right behind the Chaos battle line but messed up the Ld-check and the herd scattered to the worst possible place.:p Morgors might be expensive but are definitly worth the points I guess.

The Chief proved a bit weaker than I initially thought, especially when I saw that a 45pts base cost Skaven Chief has roughly the same stats.:eyebrows:

Tuskor Chariots are also very nice units, having chariots as a core choice is a very neat advantage. I have yet to toy with all the Special and Rare choice monstrosities

Anyway, I think I'm gonna have a few games with higher pts cost with BoC and get some more units for this force soon.

Bloodknight
15-11-2006, 21:14
That special rule is called "unruly" ;).
You actually found out why Beasts are so popular among Chaos players: the herds are great and the tuskgor chariot does the same as the chaos chariot, but cheaper.

Selsaral
15-11-2006, 22:07
Don't forget, tuskgor chariots have the mark of chaos undivided and therefore also have awesome psychology protection. You're right, they rule.

zoggin-eck
16-11-2006, 06:55
Hey sigur, those plastic guys didn't come six to a box to begin with (here in Australia anyway), they were ten to a box, then eight with a higher price, then finally six with the same price :P They did the same or similar things with the other sets too