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View Full Version : Anyone think new orc book has made them less varied?



gorenut
12-11-2006, 19:37
Yea, new units are added, but it seems like less units are a "given" now. I know everyone can play as they wish based on theming an army (I know I do), but it seems like the basic Orc is now such a given, we'll see more similar lists now. Ok, I admit, 6th made gobbos too much of a bargain, but atleast we still saw other units as more viable. I'm not complaining because I always liked the basic orc boys the best of all the units in the orc army.. but I also liked Big Uns, Boar Boyz, and Black Orcs (ok, they didn't really get shafted, just changed). Though now it seems like pretty much the army will consist almost of all different variants of orc boyz backed by some hammer unit from the special choices (though not boar boyz since they're so expensive now).

What do you guys think?

Voltaire
12-11-2006, 19:43
The problem with the Orcs was the Goblins were too easy to make an entire army while Orcs were just support. This was a wrong sorry state of affairs. Orcs are the mainstray unit of an O&G army and making Goblins 3 points and less varied has really placed an emphasis on them. There is nothing wrong with the Orcs. IT was just that there was too much right with the Goblins.

UberBeast
12-11-2006, 19:59
Goblins were nothing like a bargain, it was simply that orcs were so bland. There are other armies with 2pt core units that were better, and I'd like to point out that we won't see those books redone for several years at best.

I've seen hundreds of armies with orcs in them and far far fewer goblin only armies in the last edition. I think that too many people are accepting this gobbo supremacy myth as fact simply because they never saw it for themselves.

Mephistofeles
12-11-2006, 20:05
Hundreds? God damn it boy you've been around a lot...

Anyway, I think that it seems more varied now, although I can see common goblins being a bit less played, there you are absolutely right. Orcs will be more common yeah, but I think that is as it should be, it's Orcs&Goblins after all.

Spider Riders seems like a valid choice, so does savage orcs, black orcs, night goblins, orcs, big 'uns, Wolf Riders, Spear Chukkas, Squig Herds, Shamen, bosses, wyverns, trolls (almost) and even giants. Seems to me as THE most varied list, with the most "valid" options?

Frecus
12-11-2006, 20:06
I've seen hundreds of armies with orcs in them and far far fewer goblin only armies in the last edition. I think that too many people are accepting this gobbo supremacy myth as fact simply because they never saw it for themselves.

You only need to be overrun by more than 10 fanatics backed up by 8+ levels of goblin magic once to see goblin supremacy.

Frecus
The glade wanderer
Madwarrior

Da GoBBo
12-11-2006, 20:07
Nope, I don't think there less varied at all. I'v allready made a couple of different lists because I can't choose how to fill up me special choices. You can now have more than one squigherd, more than one unit of black orcs, ye don't have to use 2 units of boar boyz of ye want boar boy big uns, goblin chariots arn't 2 for 1 choice any more (which makes em not interesting at all I gues) and last but not least, Squig hoppers :D !!! Oh, I really want to use those.
The core units are better too. Orcs are truly tough now, so ye can have an elite army. Spider riders have their abvious uses and are great with a horde army and more than great versus woodies and such. K, they screwed up the snotlings, but apart from that. I love this new list.
Magic items have changed drasticly and I think it can actually be a good thing to tool up character and bash em silly.
Waaagh!!! need I say more?
Magic for orcs and goblins. Both lists have interesting spells.
Apart from all that, the special characters provide some interesting tactical options too. But even without em I really think the army has been greatly improved and we have more options and can adopt more strategies than in 6th edition.

Lordsaradain
12-11-2006, 20:15
I've seen hundreds of armies with orcs in them and far far fewer goblin only armies in the last edition. I think that too many people are accepting this gobbo supremacy myth as fact simply because they never saw it for themselves.
I couldn't agree with you more.


There is nothing wrong with the Orcs.

No, but there is something very wrong with orc boar boyz.

gorenut
13-11-2006, 05:50
Well, that was my whole point. Before I would really want to use Big Unz, Black Orcs, Boar BOyz, etc... now not so much.

zak
13-11-2006, 07:29
I think the Empire book will give us an indication of whether all cavalry are being priced up. If they all aren't going up then Boarboys have really become either a small support unit (probably s/orc) or totally redundant.
The normal Big'Uns are a bit pricey, as are the Black Orcs. Both units are still a valid choice though even if you do pay a little bit more for them.

gorenut
13-11-2006, 07:32
Well, from the looks of sources from various posters, the Empire cav seem to stay the same. Perhaps the boarboyz went up in price due to the new animosity and Waaagh rules. Those things go FAST now. Big Unz and Black Orcs, no clue (though I guess new choppa rules might come into factor).

Voltaire
13-11-2006, 08:04
No, but there is something very wrong with orc boar boyz.

The problem with Orc Boar Boy will become a universal problem in the game as we find ourselves coming more away from Knights & more towards Infantry though. Empire Knights will go up in price, and I am coming out in hives imagining what the cost of Chosen Chaos Knights is likely to be.

BenK
13-11-2006, 11:01
And all the while Bretonnia being one of the last books to be released...
mwaha. Mwahaha.

Avian
13-11-2006, 11:13
Empire Knights will go up in price
The Empire cavalry is not going up in price at all. Pistoliers are even becoming cheaper.

Lordsaradain
13-11-2006, 11:19
Well, from the looks of sources from various posters, the Empire cav seem to stay the same. Perhaps the boarboyz went up in price due to the new animosity and Waaagh rules. Those things go FAST now. Big Unz and Black Orcs, no clue (though I guess new choppa rules might come into factor).

How often do boarboy units have rank bonus? Even less often now thanks to the price hike and the fact that you only get rankbonus for 5 in every rank in the 7th ed. Boar boys dont even benefit from choppa. Boar boyz will not benefit from the new waagh rules, only suffer as they will take D6 casualties on a 1.

Nilhouse
13-11-2006, 15:21
How often do boarboy units have rank bonus? Even less often now thanks to the price hike and the fact that you only get rankbonus for 5 in every rank in the 7th ed. Boar boys dont even benefit from choppa. Boar boyz will not benefit from the new waagh rules, only suffer as they will take D6 casualties on a 1.

Just put your General in there. They automatically Waaagh!

gorenut
13-11-2006, 17:11
I never understood people paying for rank bonuses when using expensive cav.

Shimmergloom
13-11-2006, 17:36
Just put your General in there. They automatically Waaagh!

And then you can't make him a black orc, cause you can't risk your warboss doing D6 S5 hits to a boar boy unit everytime they fail animosity.

Which means they'll fail animosity all the time cause you don't have a black orc in there.

TheWarSmith
13-11-2006, 17:38
I don't see what's wrong w/ the book. In my opinion it is one of the more balanced books between unit choices(empire being another.)

Boar boys are not the easiest unit to rationalize, but almost all the other units have huge reasons to take them, and a varied force.

There's no "OMG I must take this every game" unit and there's no "OMG, why would you ever take them" unit either.

Balanced OG armies with 3-4 orc units, and 3-5 gobbo units look great on the field, and they're very multi purpose.

Lordsaradain
13-11-2006, 18:00
There's no "OMG I must take this every game" unit and there's no "OMG, why would you ever take them" unit either.



I'd NEVER take orc boar boyz in the 7th ed. I've actually converted all of my boar boyz into savage orc boar boyz in protest after reading the new O&G book. :p They have gone from reasonably priced and somewhat useful to outragoeusly priced and but no more usefull. Sure ,savage orc baor boyz have also suffered from a price hike, but they've also become considerably better thanks to the new frenzy rule, so this price hike, unlike the normal OBB, one is entierly justified.

Crazy Harborc
13-11-2006, 18:05
Well, I do agree with the Smith from Chi-town (soon to be winter SNOW-land). Balance is very important. To add a thought to that.........ONE version of a roster is very unlikely to be good against ALL opponents. Always using the SAME units containing the SAME everything is NOT good either. Opponents who know what you'll field everytime will have an advantage. Keep them guessing.

MadJackMcJack
13-11-2006, 19:51
To be honest, the only thing that has changed for me in the new book is that I'll think long and hard about Big 'unz before taking them (still not sure if they're overpriced), I'll use Black Orc heros (thank **** they got rid of that stupid "extra hero slot" nonsense), and I'll now never use regular Boar Boyz unless I'm making a themed all-cav army. Apart from that, my army still consists of a good mix of orcs and gobbos. Although sometimes, I'll roll out an army without orcs or gobbos, just to mix things up.

Bingo the Fun Monkey
14-11-2006, 19:46
I think hte list is as versatile as it ever was. We certainly got a lot stronger, imo. But then again, i was never into fielding all gobbos...

Crazy Harborc
14-11-2006, 21:48
I've been using the new, improved, just issued, for real, 7th Edition Orc/Goblin armybook (doing rosters the hard way). I still use/need a couple of da' Boyz units for "real" HtH troops. Gobbos are spider riders wolfriders and LARGE(30 plus) NG units.

Oh, for now, my three plastic stone trolls are on loan to my new Lizzie army. I did some cut and paste (for real). I cut out photos of Kroxigors and pasted them onto the faces/bodies (like signboards) of the front of the trolls.:evilgrin:

MadJackMcJack
15-11-2006, 01:26
They sound like that Ork Kommando with the picture of a Marine held up in front of them. Hehe, troll kommandos, I like the sound of that.

Avian
15-11-2006, 15:25
Just put your General in there. They automatically Waaagh!
That begs the following questions:
1) What unit does not become significantly better (and more expensive) when joined by the General?
2) What if you want the General somewhere else?
3) What if you field two units of Boar Boyz?




I don't see what's wrong w/ the book.
All the unclear rules.

Link (http://folk.ntnu.no/tarjeia/avian/rules/orc_questions.php)

Gimp
15-11-2006, 15:54
You are most likely to see less goblins and more orcs. Far more black orc heros too.

Arnizipal
15-11-2006, 17:46
All the unclear rules.
Link (http://folk.ntnu.no/tarjeia/avian/rules/orc_questions.php)
Wow, that's a lot of unclearities.

The impression I got from the book was that it was a bit cramped for space. I wonder why they didn't make it 96 pages like the new Empire book will apparently be.

Slann mage Tokes
15-11-2006, 18:28
All the unclear rules.
Link (http://folk.ntnu.no/tarjeia/avian/rules/orc_questions.php)

Crazy/lazy, even for gw.....

What bugs me the most is the lack of rules, (and background)
for the Great cave Squig, and Gigantic spider.

hahah now I am going to put a gobbo bsb with my snotties!
Bad moon on a stick.

woytek
15-11-2006, 19:38
Crazy/lazy, even for gw.....

What bugs me the most is the lack of rules, (and background)
for the Great cave Squig, and Gigantic spider.

hahah now I am going to put a gobbo bsb with my snotties!
Bad moon on a stick.

And then what? Waste a banner and BSB in a unit of snotties who don't actually benefit from the rules?

Shimmergloom
15-11-2006, 20:23
Wow, that's a lot of unclearities.

The impression I got from the book was that it was a bit cramped for space. I wonder why they didn't make it 96 pages like the new Empire book will apparently be.

You're going to be cramped for space when 21 out of 80 pages are a glorified model catalog.

Slann mage Tokes
16-11-2006, 05:21
And then what? Waste a banner and BSB in a unit of snotties who don't actually benefit from the rules?

Why wouldn,t they test off the BSB's LD???
I have not read anywhere that they cannot.

MadJackMcJack
16-11-2006, 10:15
He meant the Bad Moon on a Stick. It's Night Gobbos only, plus it gives stubborn to a unit, which Snotlings already have.

Avian
16-11-2006, 11:55
It gives you a Stubborn character in a Stubborn unit and in that case the unit uses the unmodified Ld of the character for all break tests. This is simply by the rules of 7th edition and it probably never occured to the designers that anyone would do it.

woytek
16-11-2006, 15:19
It gives you a Stubborn character in a Stubborn unit and in that case the unit uses the unmodified Ld of the character for all break tests. This is simply by the rules of 7th edition and it probably never occured to the designers that anyone would do it.

Ah sorry...didn't realise that...

luckyguy
16-11-2006, 22:30
I like the new book. I particularly like taking a suicide goblin on wolf with the one hit wonder and brimstone bauble. He charge in alone, delivers a potential 3 S10 hits and hopefully is killed and blows up for D6 S6.

Arnizipal
17-11-2006, 19:21
Personally I feel the new book messed to much which things that where already fine. I like the new choppa rule, the WAAAGH! rule is a nice addition and admittedly greenskin magic was too powerful in 6th, but all the rest was more or less fine the way it was.
Besides, what's whith all the special characters taking up space that could be used for the characterful misfire table for doomdivers, more rules on fanatics or rules about Gigantic Spiders and Giant Cave Squigs?
We don't need 5 characters in the book. Just throw them on the website.

Sorry about the rant...

UberBeast
17-11-2006, 21:59
Well, I've finally started playing with the new book, so theories are turning into facts. The new Waaagh rules are certainly nice, but it makes holding a battle line almost impossible, especially when your general's unit jumps ahead twice, pounding into the whole enemy army alone while the rest of you units are in various states of disaray behind him, out of leadership range, and with their flanks exposed because the unit next to them didn't get the same roll they did.

1/3 chance of having a unit behave oddly each turn makes for a frustrating game.

The choppa rule is precious especially when it comes to being charged. This puts orcs at a decent buy for 5 points, but with their larger bases and the basically random movement, they are not by any means an uber unit that requires other drawbacks in the army as some people suggest.

My biggest problem is the price hike in goblins. I'm still trying to use the buggers, but they give away too many victory points when they get killed now. They aren't the expendable unit they are supposed to be, and the new 7th edition panic rules make the fact that Orcs ignore goblin panic nearly pointless. While Night goblins still seem to be playable thanks to some of their gear (fanatics are a waste of points now without their ability to auto pen heavy cav) common goblins are absolutely terrible.

I get the impresseion that the GW design team was all in the other room working on the new Eldar Codex when this book needed proofreading. The author went too far overboard on balancing out the new orc choppa and Waaagh rules and ended up with a narrow and unplaytested view of just where units like Boarboys, big'uns, goblins, and snotlings were in relation to actual balance.

End result, this book needed about another three months playtesting. Now we're stuck with it for all its good and bad, and we've got all these neat new goblin minis which mostly won't see actual table top play.

Crazy Harborc
17-11-2006, 23:56
Well, gobbo units of 40 plus bodies absorb a lot of wounds before there's much chance of a failed panic test. Mine get to deliver their fanatics (3 I always take 3), most of the time:D .

My gobbos have been winning the battles for da' army.;) I've won 4 out of 5, thanks to those LARGE units of NGs and fanatics. Spider riders are working well, I always add bows;)

luckyguy
19-11-2006, 15:16
Not sure I understand the comments made regarding a "6" messing up the battle line. I have heard this before. Should be easy to correct in the remaining moves phase. One or more units move 1 d 6". Just move them forward 8 - the d6" of movement. Easy to keep your battle line. Unless of course your greenskins are not trying to advance each turn but not sure why anyone would play them without advancing them forward each turn.

In other words only the animosity roll of "1" should prove a hinderance.

MadJackMcJack
19-11-2006, 17:16
Unless of course your greenskins are not trying to advance each turn but not sure why anyone would play them without advancing them forward each turn.



My response to a glut of skink hordes was to max out on war machines and magic and force the little bastards to come to me, because if I go to them, they start doing that bloody "move around them and pepper them to death" thing. It pretty much requires that your battle line stays put keep the fliers off the war machines though (fanatics do a good job at that). There was also a lot of bitching, but hey, a skink horde user doesn't deserve to get a fair game.

Heretic Burner
20-11-2006, 03:10
Yes clearly the book has certainly cut a number of options from a competitive O&G perspective.

Regular goblins are, as has been stated countless times, next to pointless. With the point rise in night goblin units these are obviously of less value than before as well. The immense increase in boar boyz makes them extremely questionable.

O&G maintain a premium on special slots. The removal of the 2 for 1 deal on goblin chariots removes yet another option to take in a typical army if taking chariots are desired. Yes characters can supposedly be mounted on one for free but...there is significant risk in doing that.

7th edition rules (particularly the lack of power dice sharing) combined with animosity makes magic a very poor option beyond your standard scroll caddy. Rolling a 1 every turn can cripple your magic phase, basically handing your opponent free dispel scroll(s). Rolling a 6 could very well push your shaman into combat, again very rarely desireable. With nothing to make up for these crippling dangers (in fact several other damaging changes to magic items and ability to generate magic dice) it seems clear that there has been an effort to sway people from choosing magic heavy O&G armies. I believe they have went MUCH to far. Any way you look at it, its simply less options to choose from.

Savage orc infantry is clearly way overpriced, not that they were extremely prevailant last edition. Regular orcs are going to be FAR more common, again a massive loss of variety.

I simply cannot fathom how 7th edition O&G armies are going to look much different from one another. You'll have your standard orcs. You'll have your night goblins. A smattering of special options. BOBSB with spirit totem. Scroll caddy. Fighting heroes. Period. I predict this will be found in the vast majority of lists. Again and again and again. And that is not good for the game.

I'm very disappointed with the new book. The blandness of armies created by the list is in fact far from the biggest problem of the new army book but it is still significant. Well, we can at least hope for a better effort from the next book.

In many many years time.

*sigh*

Crazy Harborc
20-11-2006, 03:51
Well, there's always WAB?? I suggest you do a (or more) different fantasy army.

Most of my doubts about 7th Edition and or the new Orcs/Goblins armybook were eased after 6 games.

gorenut
20-11-2006, 07:24
Heretic Burner's points were the exact things I had in mind. I mean, I'm not totally complaining because I always liked orcs better than gobbos and even in 6th ed would have fielded them with choppa and shield just based on aesthetics, but now they're actually worth their points.

However, after loading up on just orc boyz, the rest of the stuff seems less appealing. I'll take the standard wolfriders for flank protection, baiting, hunting, etc. Then some heavy hitting chariots... but both black orcs and especially big unz are not as desireable. Boarboys which I used to actually think highly of, are now overpriced (though admittedly savage big unz hit mad hard!). I guess atleast theres the option to have 4 pump wagons, haha.

woytek
20-11-2006, 13:30
I simply cannot fathom how 7th edition O&G armies are going to look much different from one another. You'll have your standard orcs. You'll have your night goblins. A smattering of special options. BOBSB with spirit totem. Scroll caddy. Fighting heroes. Period. I predict this will be found in the vast majority of lists. Again and again and again. And that is not good for the game.

I'm very disappointed with the new book. The blandness of armies created by the list is in fact far from the biggest problem of the new army book but it is still significant. Well, we can at least hope for a better effort from the next book.

I agree, thought I haven't really thought about it in that way. I always liked orcs and combat, so the new book looked perfect for me. Though I must say that with the special rule and arcane item that orcs get it could be a nice tactice to get as many units in combat fast and then you will have alot of extra dice to cast with. Too bad they removed about all of the orcisch arcane items...

Indeed in my army you will see the orcs, the night goblins, the scroll caddy, the BOBSB with spirit totem... But you will also see black orcs, big'uns and SOBB... They are still hard and I wouldn't want to play an army that would just win by standing. I think orcs need to fight and therefore I decided I wanted hard 'itting units.

I use these units together with smart use of the general + BSB + WAAAGH! and it works!

NakedFisherman
20-11-2006, 13:40
Savage Orcs are around 8 points each...and they have two S4 attacks in the first round each. Give them an extra choppa and they're more points, but they're also pretty potent (especially with the Waaagh! rule).

I don't think they're overpriced, but I don't play the army either.

Arnizipal
20-11-2006, 14:28
Savage Orcs went up two points, and now come with warpaint (which used to cost 1 point). So all in all they went up with 1 point which is probably because of the new choppa rule.

Still seems ok to me.

ekxw
20-11-2006, 15:26
i have played aginst them and they are a great army, you can use near al the units without feeling that you are wasting points.

you wont use spearchucas or charriots? or squigs herds or hopping squigs they are great able to eat dwarfs.............

the calvary in this edition will go up some points, cause its need a increase of points not to be calvary hammer.

i hate to see armys based only in calvary and play against it its just plain stupid, the all charriot had ended for all the armies not only for the goblins.

and thats good not more hard asses, in the last tournament i play i have the shame to paly agaisnt a all calvary chaos army and wasnt fun al charriots and calvary, we need to see how they make the next army books but the enemy armis will be niveled somehow.

Goldenwolf
20-11-2006, 17:50
Gents,

I agree that the new book has made units more/less viable in an army, but so have all the previous books. In the last edition, goblin armies were a good choice. Not from a heavy hitter point, but from mass numbers, extra heroes, and good magic.

They screwed the Boar Boyz up big time. I had trouble bringing them into my army before, but now they will almost never show up.

2 Gobbo Chariots for 1 slot made them viable, as 20 Wolf boyz with 2 chariots made one hell of a flank charge move of 18" I am going to hope that I can get away with one now.

HOWEVER,

Arrer boyz now are of use, which they weren't before.

Spider Riders make a nice comeback for a reasonable price.

Orc Boyz will now dominate Orc armies!!!

2 Snotling Pump Wagons for 1 slot make it nice, as well as the new Doom Diver d3 move.

There are pluses and minuses to it. We'll see how it turns out.

woytek
20-11-2006, 19:06
the calvary in this edition will go up some points, cause its need a increase of points not to be calvary hammer.
How come empire knights are about the same cost as boar boyz then?


HOWEVER,

Arrer boyz now are of use, which they weren't before.

Spider Riders make a nice comeback for a reasonable price.

Orc Boyz will now dominate Orc armies!!!

2 Snotling Pump Wagons for 1 slot make it nice, as well as the new Doom Diver d3 move.

There are pluses and minuses to it. We'll see how it turns out.

Error boyz stay error boyz, no matter how cheap they are I will never field them. Leave the shooting to the gobbo engineers!

Spider riders are very nice, and so are the new orcs but those needed the boost. But I don't think they are game winners, just a solid main. The won't kill that much you know...

Snotling pump wagons are IMO useless and just for fun games with friends. The new doom diver is crazy though!

Crazy Harborc
20-11-2006, 19:23
"crazy though". Sums it up very well, IMHO. The 7th Edition Orcs and Goblins ARE crazy.....in a very good way. They were and still are one of my top five favorites to push.

Gobbos cost more game points........oh well. Large units are still useable, points wise, 40 NGs w/sprs, full cmd. & w/3 fanatics-255 points, 5 ranks of 8, 8 of 5 or whatever formation.

Goldenwolf
21-11-2006, 16:25
Arrer Boyz aren't bad. They are Orc Boyz that can shoot something on the move, and now that they are 1 point more than an Orc Boy, fielding a block of 25 won't kill you.

Orc Boyz can be game winners if you play them right. If you're looking for one unit that will dominate everything while the rest of the line holds on, it seems like you've got a one trick pony that will be easily countered.

I like Grimgor and a block of Black Orcs, but they suck up so many points that it becomes a bad thing. hmmm field Grimgor and 24 Black Orcs or 125 Orc Boyz, hmmm

Arnizipal
21-11-2006, 16:45
Gobbos cost more game points........oh well. Large units are still useable, points wise, 40 NGs w/sprs, full cmd. & w/3 fanatics-255 points, 5 ranks of 8, 8 of 5 or whatever formation.
I have to admit I really like the new netter rule. 35 points is pricey, but seeing three ranks of High Elf spearmen poke my goblins at S2 is absolutly hillarious. My Night Goblins finally won a combat (admittedly assisted by a single Big'Un who had clipped in).

GranFarfar
21-11-2006, 18:29
Arrer Boyz aren't bad. They are Orc Boyz that can shoot something on the move, and now that they are 1 point more than an Orc Boy, fielding a block of 25 won't kill you.


What is really beautifull is that savage orc pay more for bows, 2 points. Well, this is really not a problem causs I guess that no one would think of the idea of giving frenzy troops bows. But just seems stupid to make them pay more for bows.

The increased of the cost of boar boys isn't really that terrible if you ask me. Compared to other "ordinary" knights(such as silver helms, reiksguard) they are slightly weaker on the defence but pack a slightly stronger attack. So to make them cost about the same as these knights does not really seem that unfair to me. And besides, in a unit of 10(?) the point difference is not that great. Of course I do not play OG.

Heretic Burner
21-11-2006, 19:03
The problem is, of course, those Silver Helms and Empire knights are effective enough at breaking on the charge AND are defensively superior. Not to mention that they are core, don't deal with animosity, have higher leadership, etc. The comparison isn't even remotely close, the points cost should reflect that.

Savage orcs are hit twice. First they are more pricy for no reason whatsoever, just a hit decided on a unit already poorly represented in games. Second they are forced to take warpaint, an option undesirable in most cases for the point cost. Compare to standard orcs with 2 hand weapons. Same number of attacks but one is certainly far more controllable than the other. Protection is similar, one armour/one ward. AND the standard orcs are cheaper. Total no-brainer.

Not to mention maintaining a line with standard orcs is hard enough with the brutal new animosity. Having to deal with frenzy on top of it - simply not a competitive option.

The book just doesn't make sense under objective criticism. Putting aside the dozens of questions already compiled desperately in need of a FAQ, the units are simply poorly balanced within the same army book let alone in comparison with other books out there. As the UK GT results pour in it is becoming clearer and clearer that O&G are a third tier army now. For an army with such a rich history as this one within the warhammer world - it just seems a shame.

Da GoBBo
22-11-2006, 09:54
You know the frenzy rule has changed a bit no? Mounts are effected by there riders frenzy too. Take 6 savage boar boyz big uns (+-180 points without command), protect em well and ye have a potential 24 S5 hits, champions, characters and banners not included. This can be raised to over 35 S5 hits, but that will cost ye (banner of butchery, big boss with pig stikka). No small feat.

WarbossKurgan
22-11-2006, 12:03
As the UK GT results pour in it is becoming clearer and clearer that O&G are a third tier army now. For an army with such a rich history as this one within the warhammer world - it just seems a shame.
Could you even use the new O&G book at UK GT Heat One or Two? It was a bit close to the release date - don't they normally prohibit army books within a month or two of their release?

I think we'll have to wait a while longer to get a true picture of how well O&G do in competition.

GranFarfar
22-11-2006, 14:14
The problem is, of course, those Silver Helms and Empire knights are effective enough at breaking on the charge AND are defensively superior. Not to mention that they are core, don't deal with animosity, have higher leadership, etc. The comparison isn't even remotely close, the points cost should reflect that.


Mostly bigger units of cavalry is supported by a character in my experience, which will take the orcs up to a equal leadership of the empire knights, of course still lower then HE. Against the core vs special argument I can't really say anything but you are right about that one. At least without making this to lenghty and deep.
But the orcs are about as superior on the offence as the helms and knights are on the defence, and thus they are about even on that if you ask me.
I might modify my previous standpoint to that the boar boyz might have been raised a bit to much in cost - but I still don't see them as way overpriced, maby just a couple of points, which means little if you are not playing all boar boyz. But they might have been taking it too far with that 8 point big'un upgrade.

And if we are to look at the entire army, I think the O&G have become a stronger and, to me funnier list. I see it as more varied then before, since the boyz have become such a better choice. The only unit I have yet to see in a battle is common goblins(except war machine crew's and riders of course), but I never saw them in 6th edition either.

Crazy Harborc
22-11-2006, 20:20
You know the frenzy rule has changed a bit no? Mounts are effected by there riders frenzy too. Take 6 savage boar boyz big uns (+-180 points without command), protect em well and ye have a potential 24 S5 hits, champions, characters and banners not included. This can be raised to over 35 S5 hits, but that will cost ye (banner of butchery, big boss with pig stikka). No small feat.

Thanks......I guess. YOU are THE person;) who has given me a train of thought that will lead to me using the......what you said, in my next greenskins army. Win or not YOU persuaded me to try......just youuu.

All kidding aside, your points are a VERY good reason to try a Savage Orc Boar Boyz, Big uns unit.

gORCUS
23-11-2006, 14:28
it seems to me that rules clarity is the main downfall of the new book. the cost of boar boyz, big' uns and black orcs are harder to swallow, but the cheaper cost of the regular boyz kinda balances it out. and goblin core choices went up in cost, but goblin artillery is still dirt cheap and squigs are awesome. ws4, s5 on 20mm bases, immune to psychology, with hoppers' odd movement allowing charges straight through difficult terrain, and herds blowing up upon defeat making fighting them a no win proposition, they validify an all night goblin horde as a competitive army. my first army was the ogre kingdoms, so i can look at gnoblars, and then at goblins, and it makes complete sense that they cost 1 point more, with higher strength, higher leadership(well, not n. goblins) and better equipment than a gnoblar, plus gnoblars only squabble(about every other turn in my experience). so i look forward to my night goblin horde led by skarsnik(also, i have no problem with special characters), and i also plan on doing an orc horde after that, and maybe i'll even throw in a unit of boar boyz. so i guess i don't think the new book has limited the variety of the army.

Dwarf Longbeard
23-11-2006, 20:05
Personally I feel the new book messed to much which things that where already fine. I like the new choppa rule, the WAAAGH! rule is a nice addition and admittedly greenskin magic was too powerful in 6th, but all the rest was more or less fine the way it was.
Besides, what's whith all the special characters taking up space that could be used for the characterful misfire table for doomdivers, more rules on fanatics or rules about Gigantic Spiders and Giant Cave Squigs?
We don't need 5 characters in the book. Just throw them on the website.

Sorry about the rant...

I've got to agree with what you said about messing with things which were already fine.
In saying that there are a few things which are nice like the simpler rules for nets and the new rules for Choppa's and the Waaagh! rule is a nice addition like someone else said.

The main problem I see is that the book leans very heavily on Orc armies or Night Goblin armies or a combination, I think that if Common Goblins had been left out of the list all together not many people would have noticed, which is a shame for people who have large armies of Common Goblins.
Common Goblins definatly got the short end in this book comparing them to Night Goblins who have Fanatics and Nets as decent options, where the Common Goblin gets Light armour...

Going against what some people have said about Arrer Boyz now being useful I've got to disagree a little as I usually used my Arrer Boyz as war machine guards as there quite a strong unit in close combat and a unit of 20 is quite a deterrent against most fast cavalry and flyer units, problem now is when a Waaagh is sounded the Arrer Boyz go charging off somewhere.

I think the one thing which would have made a major difference to the book and was rumoured but never happened was where you could only include specific units if you had characters of that type.
I'm actually trying to build my army around this rule and to be honest it isn't working out to bad and makes for a bit of a different looking army at least, no Night Goblins and not a lot of Orcs.

As mentioned in the quote above about the lack of fluff in the book in favour of getting extra special characters in there, it seems that GW is slowly turning warhammer into 40k with regards to being great for tournament playing but the fluff and history is simply poor and diluted to a few pages; how I miss my 5th edition fluffy books.

Thats my grumble anyway