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View Full Version : What would you like in a new chaos codex.



wingedserpant
15-11-2006, 13:33
I read somewhere here recently about the order of new 'dex's' and chaos space marines are due in late 2007/early 2008. Now I don't beleive there to be much wrong with the current one but what would you like to see changed.

I would like more god specific vechile upgrades and perhaps a small change to the iron warriors to make them less powerful compared to other legions.

But what you like changed.

stonefox
15-11-2006, 13:38
Iron warriors, demonbomb slaanesh obviously need to be less powerful.

jacobus
15-11-2006, 13:38
Tbh, I'd like them to make Power specific armies that are actually any good. At the moment they're far too expensive and in most cases every player will take the same set-up! (World Eaters 1500pts - DP, BT, 3xsquads of Berzerkers and soem BL's for example)

The Keeper of Secrets
15-11-2006, 13:41
I'd really like to see the 5th god Malal legalised, the sons on malice renamed to malal again, and the god to have his own book loike the others (book of nurgle etc).

I'd also like to have the option to create larger Daemon princes, or to be able to specialise them more (e.g lots of attacks no defece or vise-versa etc)

And being able to create you own greter daemons would be good. Much more leigion varienty then rather than having the same rules and models just painted differently

Curufew
15-11-2006, 13:43
More balance rules.
Better format for the book
No more one trick pony

Darkseer
15-11-2006, 13:55
1) Cheaper bezerkers.
2) Remove ALL non-dedicated legion rules and replace with a trait system.
3) Incorporate Lost & the Damned List into main chaos armylist. Could be part of trait system.
5) More chaos undivided daemons.
6) Greater daemon of chaos undivided.
7) Chuck it all in 1 big book like the 2nd ed chaos codex. I still have it and I love it :)

Blessed Knight
15-11-2006, 14:10
add lost and the damned to the codex.

bring back daemonic mounted units. (bloodcrushers, disks etc)

Bloodknight
15-11-2006, 14:49
No allowance to field marked (other than MoCU) heroes in undivided armies, especially not on the purpose of making Cult units Troops. Better balanced Cult armies - atm an undivided army with a Khorne boss, Bloodthirster, Berzerkers and Obliterators (!) is just better than a WE army, which seems wrong to me.
A nurgle fast attack choice (every other power has fast attack daemons).
The whole Codex should be better organized - I cant count how many illegal DPs Ive seen over the years.

Kriegsherr
15-11-2006, 15:03
I want a full blown codex filled with traitor guard, beastmen, mutants, demons and demonworld scum (maybe even chaos xenos) and not a _single_ marine in sight or anywhere in the book... as an addition to a full blown chaos marine dex of course.
Failing that, an even share of Marines and non-marines in the new chaos books. Its time to end the era of Space Marine 40k for chaos they started in 2nd ed.

Else, the marines list should undergo a heavy balancing like the new eldar... there are things that are too cheap, that are things that are underused or just too expensive, and there are combinations and choices that have to go.

Of course, besides of a full-blown, fully tested LatD and traitor guard list with A LOT of new choices I want to have some new goodies for the chaos marines... deamon machines (can be used for marines and LatD, just leave the stupid "the Despoiler commanded them to be built" as the Despoiler is not mr. chaos, hes just one of countless pawns of chaos), and maybe even some new (old-school) weapons like the reaper.

I don't mind if this goes at the expense of the Legionspecific lists. If the eldar dex is anything to go by, they will vanish anyway. If there is a big, flexible list allowing you to use traitor gaurd, chaos marine legions, demon armies or demonworld scum, or any combination of it, and some restrictions to keep some of the more stupid combinations away (like needing some traitor guard infantry to get access to traitor Leman Russes), its absolutly okay if a Marine of one Legion uses exactly the same rules as a marine of another.... as long as there are still the four cult marine Legions of course...

leonmallett
15-11-2006, 15:27
I would like effectively two lists (possibly over two books):
1. Chaos Marines that can be customised to be Mark specific, or Undivided, without altering the FOC. Infiltrate having the same relative cost whether Alpha Legion or not (since the skill works in the same way for all marines), and so on - no cost breaks! Possibly split over the two books I would like to see (Cult Marks in one book, Undivided in another).

2. A Forces of Chaos list to allow LatD again, with the Undivided list above.

WokeUpDead
15-11-2006, 15:44
noncheesy balance.
more fluff.
sunshine, lollypops and rainbows :D

Voodoo Boyz
15-11-2006, 15:48
I'd like to get rid of "teh broken"

No more 9 Oblits or 4 HS for Iron Warriors.
No more Infiltrating Lords/LT's with Demonic Speed.

You can't put summoning icons on units that move over 12" a turn or ones that infiltrate - or just find a way to nerf the demon bomb as it's rediculously good as it is. I wish MY assault army could have a way to deliver demons reliably into CC on turn two without the enemy getting the chance to shoot them at all.

Make indirect defilers 0-1 for the Marine lists.

I mean when you see 5 or 6 of the top spots from the UK GT's being taken up by Chaos armies you know the codex needs to be beaten with a nerf stick.

Darkseer
15-11-2006, 15:48
Cheaper defilers

With indirect fire they're 170pts -owch

fyrblckdragon
15-11-2006, 15:53
Slanneshi daemons need to be a point or two more. A daemonette is superior to a genestealer in every way, but costs less. This would IMO, fix daemonbombs. The other daemons are priced correctly for what they do.

K

Imperialis_Dominatus
15-11-2006, 15:54
Use a traits system.
Several Lord types, with differing wounds as per every other 'Dex.
Chaos Undivided Daemons and Greater Daemons, particularly for my recent fluff.
LatD incorporation.
More Daemon Weapons- I love 'em!
Lessen the Cheese.

WokeUpDead
15-11-2006, 15:57
oh.. - and a 'nerf-stick / a hammer' - smack everytime mr. haines tries to be the one in charge of the dex.. in fact: everytime he wants to do something.. ANYTHING. maybe even when breathing ;)

DiscombobulatedThing
15-11-2006, 15:59
Slanneshi daemons need to be a point or two more. A daemonette is superior to a genestealer in every way, but costs less. This would IMO, fix daemonbombs. The other daemons are priced correctly for what they do.

K

Nah, daemonettes are definately not superior to genestealers. Yes, they are summoned, but they have 2 fatal weaknesses: T3, so ANY shooting AT ALL will obliterate them, and the fact that they have no frag grenades... Cover if your friend, especially VS T3.

Basically, daemonettes are hit-or-miss... either you summon them and they get to charge a target of their liking (not in cover), or you summon them with nothing to charge at, and they get shot to bits in the following turn.

But yea I agree fix siren.

inq.serge
15-11-2006, 16:09
My opinion?

*Delete "Chaos Space Marines", replace name with only "Chaos", put in both daemons, CSM, lost and damned chaos IG, chaos eldars, chaos tau, chaos kroot, chaos vespid, chaos demiurg, chaos random-creature, chaos you and chaos "every-thing-that-can-go-chaos".

*Add a hell-lot-of units.

*Cheese up Aby even more!:cheese:.

*Add more gods, the 4 isn't all gods, there are 20+!

*Make obliterators an upgrade, not a unit. (i.e. up to x models in army (Non-daemonic/mechanic) may be upgraded to obliterators for y pts each, they get +z T, +1 armour, daemonic aura, +q St, -å I, +ä Bs, -ö ws and a hell-lot-of weapons. Or something.)

*More options to, more versailibility(sp) to and more difference between DP's

*Devram Korda as an special character.

Kriegsherr
15-11-2006, 16:10
Siren and the minor powers have to go. Give the chaos psykers more mayor powers, and make them at least on par with the librarian psy powers.

and of course, there have to be different powers for the different marked psykers. Only one for tzeentch (that is grossly overpriced), and none for slannesh and nurgle is a little bit... weak.

Gimp
15-11-2006, 16:52
Give more rules to the legions like the Night Lords and Word Bearers.

Helicon_One
15-11-2006, 19:43
First off, as others have said, have a pure Chaos Space Marine codex and a seperate Lost And The Damned Codex. I'm assuming that the OP is asking about the CSM side of things, so:


Fix Thousand Sons (that's a whole thread in itself, though).
Fix or remove Siren.
Detune the Bloodletters slightly (ie drop the points, power armoured codpieces and Ld 10, to bring them in line with the other daemons). Power up the Tzeentch daemons slightly (upgun Daemonic Fire slightly, perhaps?).
Remove a few of the more recognisably Loyalist items to promote racial distinction and emphasise the fact they've spent ten millennia seperate (the existing list does a fair job at this, but a few more nudges in that direction would be welcome).
A few more Defiler-esque Daemon Engines (hopefully not too much like the leaked concept sketches, but lets have some). Remove Basilisks from the I-win Warriors in exchange for some daemonic engine-type stuff.
More stuff on the various Legions (and some of the more recently defected Chapters).


That's not a huge lot of changes, but I don't feel as though the CSM list needs a massive amount done to it, plenty of tweaks and the odd extra unit, but nothing too radical.

Tim

luchog
15-11-2006, 23:54
I'd really like to see the 5th god Malal legalised, the sons on malice renamed to malal again, and the god to have his own book loike the others (book of nurgle etc).

Never happen, since GW doesn't own the copyright on Malal. I'd be perfectly happy to see him renamed, as long as he comes back.

Hellfury
16-11-2006, 01:32
no pete haines.

leonmallett
16-11-2006, 05:18
...I-win Warriors ...
Tim

My favourite pun on this board, ever. Genius, sir!

ss_cherubael
16-11-2006, 05:46
Purge the codex of legion specific lists like what happened to eldar and just have legion specific units that work the same way as in fantasy so you dont get a god awful book that could confuse most phd students. Take all the chaos lists and play test them, nerf what has to be nerfed (I-Win Warriors...love that too) and power up some stuff that needs it and have one huge chaos book like back in the old days. Pete haines is ok just a bit more moderation across the board.
BTW who owns the copyright on Malal?

leonmallett
16-11-2006, 05:54
I am not certain but I imagine the Malal issue is tied into the guys who created the strip he appeared in (in the old Citadel Compendium). I think Bret Ewins drew it which makes me think that Pete Milligan probably wrote it.

I applaud your idea of Cult specific units, but wanting to see Lost and the Damned be legal again I hope for two books as I cannot see GW doing a book much bigger than Codex Space Marines or Eldar, even with superfluous stuff like minor powers being dropped.

ss_cherubael
16-11-2006, 07:18
thanks for the info on Malal,
gw would run a book thats larger than the eldar dex if it was something major like codex chaos and they could also pump up the price for it

leonmallett
16-11-2006, 07:24
I was wrong on the writer, it is Alan Grant and John Wagner (other 2000 AD writers along with Miligan).

Here is some wikipedia info:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malal

BrainFireBob
16-11-2006, 07:30
For "First Printing" to be redundant.

Followed by a LATD list included.

Followed by making the cults distinct lists- even if this requires their own dex, I don't know if any but the most rabid anti-Marine players would mind- especially since it would remove so much mess out of the "primary" codex.

leonmallett
16-11-2006, 07:35
The only problem with cult specific codices is that effectively at least 4 books/armies are added to the release schedule. At two per year roughly speaking, along with BA, SW, Necrons, DA, Orks, Dark Eldar, Inquisition, Imperial Guard and a Chaos Undivided book, that would take us to 2012 to release everything at the present rate, without any brand new armies.

BrainFireBob
16-11-2006, 07:37
You mean ONE book added.

leonmallett
16-11-2006, 07:42
Sorry, I misconstrued what you were saying to mean one book per ruinous power. Sorry, fella.

Kriegsherr
16-11-2006, 10:31
If they do "cult specific" Books, each of it should contain marine and non-marine choices, so that nurgle players for example have the choice of fielding a plaguemarine force or a force composed of human nurgle sorcerers (necromancers maybe? :)), plaguezombies and plaguemutants without any marine help.
Altough I think there won't be more than 2 books, if its not just one.

Anyway, its time the equation Chaos == CSM falls. for every CSM choice there should be one or even two non-marine choices in the books... marines should be a minority of the forces of chaos (as they should be of the forces of the Imperium).

If that helps against the overabundance of marines in the chaos player faction is doubtfully... but hey, give the chaos players at least the same choice imperial players have. Even if most will be drawn to the moorines. One or two new Players might start a chaos army if they aren't forced to take the MEQ Bore...

Altough combined armies can be tempting.... this is why the lists should be linked somehow... as long as its only a small part of the army, I find marines very cool.

Darkseer
16-11-2006, 10:38
I think that cult specific books are a nice idea actually. That way the games development team can give each cult more time to expand their army list and make them a more balanced force.

ashc
16-11-2006, 10:47
oh.. - and a 'nerf-stick / a hammer' - smack everytime mr. haines tries to be the one in charge of the dex.. in fact: everytime he wants to do something.. ANYTHING. maybe even when breathing ;)

too damn right. ;)

Set the new 'dex out like the Chaos books for fantasy; depending on your lord type effects the type of army you field, whilst still allowing choices from the other parts of the list (traitors, mutants, daemons, CSMs).

Possibly up to 3 books; Unaligned Marines, Cults, Traitors + Muties

tone down IW and Sirenbomb.

Beat Haines with a stick.

Ash

Griffin
16-11-2006, 11:08
Personally I'm a huge fan of the MARINES in Chaos - There hatred and failings is what makes them cool for me.

Murphey
16-11-2006, 11:19
I personally would rather it stayed similar to how it currently is. I like the fact that with one codex, I can build many different kinds of armies.

My love of chaos (second only to my love of tyranids) stems from the fact that they are so damn versitile.

Mostly though, I would love to see less (preferably no) rules holes, typos, spelling errors, contradictory rules, and ambiguous sentences.

Gimp
16-11-2006, 11:58
How about a "Legion specific" book that has the rules for all the 9 legions. And i mean rules not the ha Night Lords can see in the dark thats nice and oh look them Word Beares have a couple of deamons and a naughty chaplain. Make them good en fluffy with nice models (night lord models look nice though) so people would collect them and play them like thay were the real Legions.

Eblis_Dead_Forever
16-11-2006, 11:58
More emphasize on the chaos part less on the marines side. The way chaos is presented at the moment you'd think that the old legions are still in tact. When nearly every aspiring champion has a small warband of cultists and the larger chaos forces are consisted of traitor guard and mutants.

I think one codex for each power then an undivided codex would work well. As the chaos are the central figures everything stems from them. It also would allow more insight into each of the gods and their followers then maybe khorne followers would have abit more depth and motivation rather than blood and skulls.

The main problem however is to give the feeling of the endless possibilities of chaos without going to absurd lengths.

Chaos Player 1: What the hell is this thing?
Chaos Player 2: It's my Chaos Chihuahua
Chaos Player 1: A chaos what? Why not use a chaos spawn.
Chaos Player 2: I could have but this is yappier and it goes well with my pampered chaos lord of slannesh.
Chaos Player 1: Did you make rules for it or something?
Chaos Player 2: No it's in the new Chaos codex Codex Warp Spawned Animal Farm.

Minos Engele
16-11-2006, 13:48
-All the Current Legions need fixing, except BL. WE less random, DG need Fast Attack, EC need to lose siren, TS needs a whole lot of changes, NL and WB need "stranger/fluffier" rules, I-Win Warriors need a nerf, AL needs something like a distruption table.

- LatD need to be in the book, with more gribblies, more marked unit allowances and less limits on tanks.

- More Deamon Weapons, make them upgrades for Heavy/Special/Wargear weapons.

- Switch Oblitz with Dreads in the FOC chart.

- Somesort of Assault ramp upgrade for vehicles. Make it either really expensive for Rhinos or give it a drawback, otherwise Chaos CC would become to strong.

- Undivided Greater Deamon Prince would be nice. The current GD are "Avatars" of the gods. Following this logic would mean that there aren't any Undivided GD. An Greater Undivided DP would be the epitome of (ex)mortal(ish) power. A champion of pure chaos who doesn't favor any of the gods above the other.

Gimp
16-11-2006, 14:43
I still rate a "Legion specific" book that has the rules and fluff for all the 9 legions would be great. And i mean look at those really cool Night Lord Models with the pimping helmets and the cool captain and they have some really cool fluff but no one plays with them because ha look they can see in the dark and have an extra fast attack. The same goes for the Alpha Legion they are hard core they duffed up the Ultarmarines.

Kriegsherr
16-11-2006, 14:56
I still rate a "Legion specific" book that has the rules and fluff for all the 9 legions would be great. And i mean look at those really cool Night Lord Models with the pimping helmets and the cool captain and they have some really cool fluff but no one plays with them because ha look they can see in the dark and have an extra fast attack. The same goes for the Alpha Legion they are hard core they duffed up the Ultarmarines.

I play my marines as Alpha Legions sometimes... but that wasn't what you meant was it ;)

I just don't think the undivided legions have enough differences that justify different lists. Make one big lists, give all characters the option to become dark apostates (or however they're called in english) with a small fluff remark next to it that almost all of them belong to the word bearers legion. Allow the marines to use units from the Traitor Guard and maybe even the mutant list... eh voila, there are the Alpha Legion. Replace the cheap "can loot imperial vehicles" rule of the IW with new, shiney demon artillery n stuff... IWin for everyone!
The Black Legion and the Night lords doesn't even need anything else as unrestricted jumppack marines (as the NL veteran skill HAS to go or get insanly more expensive... as it stands, this makes them incredible potent in CoD and Bunkers).

There are still the ...ehrm... "divided Legions" :p
But these can be catered for by including stuff for their relevant god that covers all areas of the FoC.... yes, there has to be done a lot more god-specific stuff... and a lot Traitor guard and mutants... but I think this is more needed than more undivided galore (as cult marines usually struggle most, if you leave out stupid things like siren or the pimped up khorne-prince of doom).

And sure, I also would like to see separate books for every legions AND for different traitor regiments AND different demonworlds.... but we all know this aint gonna happen. Even the imperials will loose their special treatment if they keep up the bad buying behaviour they started with BTs.... :p

Gimp
16-11-2006, 15:22
You have a good point it would make life more simpler. But I really love the idea of having different legions.

Kriegsherr
16-11-2006, 16:05
You have a good point it would make life more simpler. But I really love the idea of having different legions.

We all would like that our special legion/chapter/regiment/cabal/whatever gets the special treatment, but sometimes we have to face reality...

And reality is: If you want something, do it yourself! Even if its not tourny legal then, houserules can add a new layer of fun to club- or homegames.

I'm also pondering this as I dusted off my chaos marines with chaos warriors weapons, helmets and shields, as no marine legion/chapter at the moment allows any marine unit to use storm- or combatshields...

Gimp
16-11-2006, 16:17
Agreed ten fold but Space marine players get there own codexs like the Black Templars and soon to be Dark Angles. Its so unfair. Cant they do what they did to the Eldar Craftworlds in 3rd ed just have one book with rules for all the Chaos Marine Legions and one book with rules for all the different chapters. They could do it for other races to like the Dark Eldar Kabals and the Ork Klans it would be great. Instead some Space marine chapters get there own codexs and model ranges (model-designers pets) thats what I call Space Marine biased.

leonmallett
16-11-2006, 16:22
Biased? Probably. Also plain fiscal sense in terms of time needed and sales to follow.

BrainFireBob
16-11-2006, 16:39
SWs, DAs, and BAs all had their own subdexes in 3rd, a holdout from the fact all three chapters were introduced a bit differently.

That's just continuing.

BTs are crusading marine, C:SM normal marines. BAs, DAs, and SWs are a special case- and frankly, there's enough distinct units and models for BAs and SWs to justify.

Grimmeth
16-11-2006, 16:47
Some kind of trait/doctrine system for the Legions would suffice. A greater emphasis on the 'normal' (For want of a better word) side of chaos rather than Marines would be great too - would make much more sense for Chaos Marines to be seen as these rare strike forces in an army of massed traitor infantry and mutants!
Not completely killing the option of all CM armies mind...

Gimp
16-11-2006, 17:26
A little bit of fluff of those chapters gone bad like those astral claws and warp ghosts would be cool. and some of those zombies would be cool.

Dark Apostle Asmodeus
16-11-2006, 17:56
1.Marines, traitors, mutants and daemons in one list.
2.Rules for making other armies chaos worshipers, such as slaaneshi dark eldar or khornate orks.
3.Special character for every legion, maybe erebus for word bearers.
4.KEEP SPECIFIC LEGION RULES!!!(with some tweaks).

Gimp
16-11-2006, 18:13
4.KEEP SPECIFIC LEGION RULES!!!(with some tweaks).

Great idea.
Specific Legion rules sounds good to me.

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
16-11-2006, 22:05
I'd like to see some changes in HQ:i mean to make chaos lord vialable in comparition to Deamon Prince.Make them two entry that cant be used together in FoC.

Deamon Prince: 110 pts
WS6 BS3 S5 T5 W3 I5 A3 LD10 SV3+/5++
Daemonic gifts,special rules and skils: Daemonic Visage,Daemonic Aura,Living Icon,Ruler of the Warp.may take any vet.skill as describe in C:CSM.

Options:May take two weapons.May take up to 100 pts from the armoury/not including weapons/

Ruler of the Warp:Once each turn may re-roll summoning roll/either succesful or not/second roll aplly.

Living Icon:He count as an icon.chose one deamon unit before battle begins.it doesn;t scatter if summoned from his icon.

Chaos Lord: 75 pts
WS5 BS5 S5 T4 W3 I5 A3 LD10 SV3+
Daemonic gifts,special rules and skils: Daemonic Visage,Daemonic Strenght,Infinite Hatred.

Infinite hatred:He re-roll attacks in first round of combat.


sth like that.i have more ideas i'll write them down later :)

Chaos marine3
16-11-2006, 22:32
I like the list as it is now, but I would be happy if you could use mutants and the traitors :D Since I think they are coolish, but I also think you should decide if you want to play them together or just CSM or traitors. And not something like ''For every CSM choice you must have one Traitor unit'' or something similar, I also think that IW shouldn't be using Imperial stuff, more special built stuff made by themself, like something similar like Defiler, my 30 cents :p :chrome:

Core_Commander
16-11-2006, 23:11
AL needs something like a distruption table.

:eek: You know, that's exactly what they need... Not only to deploy in my table quarter - they need to actually make half of my army wait in reserves, so they can slaughter them all better as they come in :skull:... Dude, no offense, but the disruption table had to GO from Codex: Eldar for a reason, fluffy or not. Hope it never comes back.

(shudders) heresy.

Okay, so here's the wishlist:

1: Keep specific Legion rules. Absolutely.
2: Remove everything that messes with the FOC or unit limitations (IW's 4 Heavy Support and 9 Oblits HAVE to go). Changing the inherent mission specifics count here, too - no disruption tables or such... GW seems to back away from such stuff, and that's a good tendency I'd say.
3: Get some cultists in there... How come the Word Bearers are crazy preachers but have no... congregation??? (insert maniacal laughter here)
4: Make Dreadnoughts Elites like the loyalist one.
5: Make Raptors cheaper, and thus viable.
6: More Demon engines! I know the Eye of Terror isn't exactly Mars, but come on... after thousands of years, the only brilliant new construction the Chaos boyz have come up with is the Defiler... using an Imperial cannon anyway :wtf:.
7: New Terminator models, new demons, plastic lord with full pimpage. Please?

8: And, people from GW, for the Greater Good's sake just THIS_ONCE read thoroughly and playtest all this stuff before sending it for printing to avoid incosequences and misunderstandings!!! How difficult can this be??

(that one's for you, Murphey ;) )

Vashalgrim
16-11-2006, 23:55
[QUOTE=Core_Commander;1079784]
6: More Demon engines! I know the Eye of Terror isn't exactly Mars, but come on... after thousands of years, the only brilliant new construction the Chaos boyz have come up with is the Defiler... using an Imperial cannon anyway :wtf:.
QUOTE]

Glad to know I'm not the only one who thought that.

Personally I would like to see them make the dreadnoughts not flip out. It doesn't fit the fluff for some of the legions, like TS. It works out well for Khorne as that really is more his thing. I think in general legion specific dreads would be great.

I think the DP/CL should stay as a single unit, I think how they do it now is better than it was in the previous codex where they were seperate.

cailus
16-11-2006, 23:59
Most people won't like my ideas:

1. Unite normal Codex, all 4 Cult armies and LaTD into one giant book of Chaos. This is similar to Codex Eldar that gets rid of Craftworlds.

2. Units of cult troops that feature the favoured number can be classed as Troops.

3. If the general of the army has a specific Mark then all units in that army have to have the mark. Only if the General has the Mark of Chaos Undivided can the army field units with different marks.

4. If the lord has no Mark, then no unit may bear a Mark - this is more a renegade army.

5. Allow the fielding of Imperial Guard vehicles on the provision that two full units of Traitor Guard are fielded (unit size = 15 or 20).

6. Adopt Eldar codex structure.

Basically you can create any variety of army by using the one codex.

Kahadras
17-11-2006, 00:08
I would like to see a serious move to seperate traitor and loyalist marines. Change weapon stats around. I would like to see a lot more stuff like cultists etc. The removal of certain 'unbalancing' factors such as the demon bomb.

Over all I want to see more cool and less 'Marines with spikey bits'.

Kahadras

cailus
17-11-2006, 00:31
Daemon bomb could be reduced in effectiveness with changes to summoning rukes, but I don't think that not allowing fast units to act as summoning points is the answer.

Lord Humongous
17-11-2006, 02:04
The deamon bomb seems easy to solve; just say an army can have no more than 1 deamon unit per unit icon (not personal or living icon, but unit icon). This also goes well with the fluff; deamons require a strong concentration of belief to manifest, so how can 3 bikers or one infiltrating lord have enough belief to manifest an infinite number of deamons?

Gensuke626
17-11-2006, 02:19
I'd agree with Lord Humongous's idea if it were 1 per icon per turn. That way, you can't swamp an enemy in 1 turn if you get all of your demons out at once, but you also don't leave demons out in the cold if they show up late.

Though a system of "Summoning" would be cool...if a unit gives up it's shooting to do a summoning ritual, That unit can take a Ld test. If you pass the demons are summoned, and if you fail you just wasted a turn of shooting...maybe suitably modified by things like "+1 Ld if the unit doing the summoning has as many members in it as a multiple of a god's sacred number."
Not that this would ever happen, but it'd be cool

Gimp
17-11-2006, 09:01
I would like to see a serious move to seperate traitor and loyalist marines. Change weapon stats around. I would like to see a lot more stuff like cultists etc. The removal of certain 'unbalancing' factors such as the demon bomb.

Over all I want to see more cool and less 'Marines with spikey bits'.

Kahadras

Yes seperate legions good. Must make cool Night lord Models acctualy do something besides being able to see in the dark.

Kriegsherr
17-11-2006, 10:12
The deamon bomb seems easy to solve; just say an army can have no more than 1 deamon unit per unit icon (not personal or living icon, but unit icon). This also goes well with the fluff; deamons require a strong concentration of belief to manifest, so how can 3 bikers or one infiltrating lord have enough belief to manifest an infinite number of deamons?

And of course, if you're insane and want to do a demon army that ONLY contains demons, they deploy as normal (and maybe get some small boost like the demon legion in fantasy to make up for the loss of marines and their summoning rules).
Maybe its possible to summon demon units in such an army, but this units are fast attack.

I also would like to have a Demon Prince without a 3+, it should be possible to have a traitor general or mutant lord, and these also have access to the demonic stature (maybe for less points because they get less from it)


Yes seperate legions good. Must make cool Night lord Models acctualy do something besides being able to see in the dark.

How about beeing almost invincible in CoD? :p

seriously, they don't need a boost. IF they have the time and space to do legion-seperate lists, they should get some special toys, but I want traitor and mutant lists first before they do 9+ Lists for Chaos Marines and Rules for them all. No need to do the same **** again they did to the imperial guard players... well, at least FW does decent IG List nowadays it seems.

Darkseer
17-11-2006, 10:17
But why would you take a daemon prince WITHOUT a 3+ save?

besides, if you look at the current DP model, he's not wearing power armour (technically). The power armour has merged and affectively become part of his fleshy daemonic body, so the 3+ save is more a representative of his toughened body being resistant to harm.

Gimp
17-11-2006, 10:47
I like the fact that the DP has power armour as he once was a Marine along time ago. Still i really love the Legions even if the just posted rules for them on the net or gave them traits or dortrins the same goes for the crawftword eldar and ork klans.

Kriegsherr
17-11-2006, 11:56
But why would you take a daemon prince WITHOUT a 3+ save?

besides, if you look at the current DP model, he's not wearing power armour (technically). The power armour has merged and affectively become part of his fleshy daemonic body, so the 3+ save is more a representative of his toughened body being resistant to harm.

Maybe because you hate marines? (I do at times:))

Maybe because you want to play an army without any marine in it... and that includes the DP beeing stripped of his armour that gives him the marine-look-and-feel.

My only DP I use at the moment is the dark master from fantasy, as I don't like the oversized marine thingy of 40k.
And I really hate the "power-muscle" save of the bloodletters, so I don't want to emlulate this stupid case of lazyness with my DP



I like the fact that the DP has power armour as he once was a Marine along time ago.

Marine ones were... yes. But Demon Prince =/= former MArine commander. There are a lot of human generals, or xenos heroes that get promoted by the dark gods. The fantasy demon princes for example if you like the old interpretation that the fantasy world is located in the 40k universe.... or the druchii anointed of slannesh.

wingedserpant
17-11-2006, 13:43
Marine ones were... yes. But Demon Prince =/= former MArine commander. There are a lot of human generals, or xenos heroes that get promoted by the dark gods. The fantasy demon princes for example if you like the old interpretation that the fantasy world is located in the 40k universe.... or the druchii anointed of slannesh.

Well maybe when he was 'promoted' his armour became deamonic. There are other ways to get a 3+ save than power armour.

Lord Humongous
17-11-2006, 16:19
And I really hate the "power-muscle" save of the bloodletters...

I'd like to see them drop the Bloodletter armor save, and give them "feal no pain" instead, just to stop all of the complaints like the one above.
The only cases I can think of where this would make a posative difference is against plasma, heavy close combat weapons, and (not sure here) vespid weapons. FNP plus a 5+ invulnerable save works better than a 3+ save vs those (if you are t4). It also works better if the models are in 4+ (or better) cover.
Still, Tyranids have str 8 guns that are not AP3, so there's times it would result in more casualties. I'm guessing there's others.
Overall it looks a balanced change, with no need for a major points adjustment- given that BL's will likely get tweaked anyhow, this small change would be easy to incorporate.
I could also see giving them heavy close combat weapons instead of hellblades, and adding furious charge.
This allows them to take on armor 12 (which they should, most other high price CC units can), leaves them about the same against big nasties and termies (except they have a harder time vs the wraithlord), makes them a bit less deadly against marines (especially if they don't charge), and much less deadly against lightly armored / t3 units.

Gimp
17-11-2006, 16:55
I have always thought Slaanish deamons were better than khorn deamons. I mean they can destroy a land raider or a carnifix

Lastie
17-11-2006, 16:56
Possinbly my biggest wish for the next Chaos Codices (quite a few rumours point towards multiple future Codices for Chaos) would be shifting the focus more onto the followers of Chaos who don't wear power armour. In other words: greater focus on the Lost and the Damned.

I would love to see an Arch Heretic with a normal Human statline (although with skills more akin to an Inquisitor, as he is a champion of Chaos) with the ability to choose 'Lord' only Daemonic Gifts. With reference to the discussions on Daemon Princes above, a Daemon Prince who wasn't a Space Marine would not only be sweet, but quite fluffy (in this respect, it might be necessary to re-write the Daemonic Stature rules to give base S/T 5 instead of +1 to each, as a Strength 4, Toughness 4 Monstrous Creature would simply be laughed off the board).

The ability to take Guard who weren't at some point part of the Imperium would also be cool, but I doubt that would occur as GW love to keep Chaos as the 'corruptive' force, hence most of what they are being essentially rejects from the Imperium.

Speaking of rejects, MUTANTS! Rules for giving Mutants various Daemonic Gifts beyond that written in the LatD list. Like Mutants with Flight, Venom, Talons, Fire, and Speed, etc. Rules for various different sizes of Spawn, from Lesser (no better than a Space Marine), to Greater (hulking abominations of flesh and warp-spawned corruption).

More (and improved) Psychic Powers! Gift of Chaos is sweet and fluffy, and more cool stuff like that would be welcomed. Also, cheaper Psychic Powers would be welcomed.

And Malal, because I know that'll never happen.

Archaeon
17-11-2006, 17:30
What would I like in the new codex. Well for one, raptors suck, so get them fixed.
Either get rid of obliterators or slash the cost.
Bloodthirsters should be higher initiative.
Troops are perfect, you get what you pay for.
Chaos spawn should be a kind of daemon troops choice.
Bloodletters should be 2 points less.
Lost and Damned should be not be included. The codex is Chaos Space Marine, not Chaos. After all, LaD do suck.
As far as wargear goes, we have the most so im not complaining.
Make the reaper autocannon an option for the havocs to carry.
Allow drop pod rules. After all, we do have dreadclaws and we are Space Marines.
Give Tzeench lascannons. Even imperial guardsmen can fire them, so why can't mindless automatons?
As far as daemon princes go, well, only cheap people use them in 1,000 point armies. They are powerful enough as is considering they can kill anything if you use them right.

aeon flux
17-11-2006, 17:34
demonbomb slaanesh obviously need to be less powerful.

what's the point? while you're at it, bring those c'tan stats down... they're too powerful.

Lord Humongous
17-11-2006, 17:53
I have always thought Slaanish deamons were better than khorn deamons. I mean they can destroy a land raider or a carnifix

In most HtH situations, they are better. They are much weaker against shooting and HTH vs massed light infantry, but that is fairly easy to avoid, as they are summoned. The fact that you can buy very cheap small units of them, or huge deadly ones, also greatly increases tactical flexibility (such as ability to avoid being shot) compared to bloodletters.

Gimp
17-11-2006, 18:52
I know there only 15 points which is lank cheap for a troop with rending (look at steelers for example dead expensive and die to heavy bolter and assault cannon fire just as easily)

wingedserpant
17-11-2006, 18:59
I'd like to see them drop the Bloodletter armor save, and give them "feal no pain" instead


that is a really good idea. It fits khorne better aswell.

wingedserpant
17-11-2006, 19:01
what's the point? while you're at it, bring those c'tan stats down... they're too powerful.

But they phase out. Don't aim at them, aim at the warriors.

Yog_Sothoth
17-11-2006, 19:11
Rewrite the "looted" vehicles for IW to OR instead of AND. Get a Basilisk or a Vindicator. One is enough.
IW may have more Obliterators than other legions, but not as extra choices. Maybe 2 extra Obliterators in the 0-1 Obliterator Cult choice.
Drop everything messing with the FOC.
Better Elite choices.
Have Obliterators and Dreadnaughts switch places.
Useful Raptors.
Traits for do it yourself Traitor Marines.
Equally (as far as possible) strong "famous" Legions.
Better armor for Defiler.
Defiler without indirect fire. You know, it doesn´t have huge claws for nothing.
Special characters for every legion.
Drop Pods.
Mutants and Traitors (meat shields), when chosen as troops, CSM become Elite or something like that.

Gimp
17-11-2006, 20:01
You just hit the nail on the head buddy I really like the idea of giving more rules to the Infamous Legions like the Night Lords and Alpha Legion.

Lord Humongous
18-11-2006, 17:28
I'd also like to see units with MOK able to buy the "infiltrate" veteran skill. However, units that purchased Infiltrate would never make blood rage rolls, just as if they had a special movement mode.
This would serve to reverse the "dumbing down" Khorne got in the 3ed codex. Even in games where infiltration wasn't allowed, the units that purchased it would be less prone to run off where you don't want them, and could make better use of their guns.
I can't see how this would be any worse then Slaneesh currently getting infiltration. Obviously, any measures taken to nerf infiltrating speed lords, deamon bombs, etc, would also stop Khorne from exploiting those tactics.

caeser21
18-11-2006, 18:04
A combined marine /legion of the damned list with maybe traitor guard as well

Lostanddamned
18-11-2006, 18:08
Ceaser21 - I would rather see separate codecii like the Hordes/Beasts of Chaos lists, that can be intermixed to make a single uberlist or fairly used alone.

Minos Engele
18-11-2006, 18:23
Bloodthirsters should be higher initiative.
Bloodletters should be 2 points less.
Lost and Damned should be not be included. The codex is Chaos Space Marine, not Chaos. After all, LaD do suck.
Make the reaper autocannon an option for the havocs to carry.
Allow drop pod rules. After all, we do have dreadclaws and we are Space Marines.
Give Tzeench lascannons. Even imperial guardsmen can fire them, so why can't mindless automatons?


Bloodthirsters shouldn't have higher initiative, otherwise they'd be too powerfull against HQ, it's hard enough to kill them already.
Bloodletters should be 2 points more. They are too powerfull already, I think it's a bit unfair.
Lost and The Damned should be included because that's wat the biggest part of Chaos armys are made of. The Codex should be called: Codex: Chaos. Ow and LatD don't suck.
The current autocannons are strong enough on Havocs.
Dread Claws would be nice, but very overpowered. Chaos has to many powerfull cc warriors who would have to much advantages if they could be deepstriked. (nobody wants 8 Khorne Possessed with Talons behind their enemy lines)
Because IG are smarter than automatons.

Oh and with "somesort of Distruption table" for the AL I didn't exactly meant the same as the Eldar had. And even then it would probably replace the cheaper-infiltration they currently have.

Kahadras
18-11-2006, 21:30
what's the point? while you're at it, bring those c'tan stats down... they're too powerful

Cuz the C'tan are a single, easily avoidable, character while the Slanneshi demon bomb is an entire army concept? The main problem with the demon bomb IMO is the lack of summoning sickness. It's too easy for an 'insta' charge; especialy with Greater daemons.

Kahadras

CherryMan
18-11-2006, 22:02
The only thing i can come to mind of that has not been said here is that i whant fw ( <- as they make the best models, allthou expensive) to make some "pre-herrasy" squads. Just imagen how incredible good looking a unit of the emperors children would look:)*dreaming* it would be a cool thing to do, to the relece of the new dex thou. Allso i wouldnt mind a "fallen one" list with a bit more personallety and history covered. oh, and offcourse a new sypher model;)

chaos0xomega
19-11-2006, 05:19
1. Chaos/Renegade Guard
2. More Demons/Gods
3. A 'create a lesser chaos god' trait system(legion, whatever)
4. A 'create a greater demon of a lesser god' system(trait-like)
5. More obliterator related options
6. Dark Mechanicus options
7. LatD units in the codex
8. more daemon engines
9. Make standard CSM more elite(they're supposed to be superpowered by the warp after all, and some are veterans of many thousands of years)
10. More Psychic powers
11. More individuality amongst legions
12. Keep the Iron Warriors rules as they are now, introduce a points minimum that has to be spent on troops choices in order to gain the extra heavy support and obliterator options.
13. A Defiler that actually uses its' claws and walker-ness instead of just a battlecannon with claws
14. More defiler like options(mini defilers, yeah!)
15. more warp-stuff that isn't power armored
16. ZOMBIES!
17. Better 1k sons
18. Better 1k sons
19. BETTER 1k SONS!
20. A sort of trait system in the codex
21. A better mutation/gift of the gods system. Chaos should have near tyranid like customizability on some/most/all of it's units, due to the warps ability to transform what it touches entirely.
21. Cheaper Raptors
22. Allow units with mark of Tzeentch to buy veteran skills, or reduce the cost of the mark by at least 75%
23. Daemon choices for all FOC slots, so we can do daemon purist armies
24. Guard Traitor Platoons! Should be different from a standard platoon. Should be basically a condensation of the standard guard army list into a single troop choice, I.E. combined meatshields, heavy/special weapons+some vehicles and command to emphasize their increased self-reliance
25. More Dark Mechanicus
26. DARK MECHANICUS!
27. MORE PSYCHIC POWERS! Chaos Sorcerers should be able to whip out unbelievably powerful and devestating spells.
28. Keep Siren, make it useless in close combat, or if the model w/ siren attacks the enemy. YOu aren't going to watch, even the most beloved thing in the world, light you up without doing something against it.
29. Perhaps, just perhaps, give Chaos Spawn the gift of chaos ability. That would fix my need for zombies.
30. Remove the Vindicator option for IW, Vindi's are a lot rarer and harder to come by than a Bassie is, the bassie should be modified in some way to represent it's chaosy-ness, or just replace it with something new entirely(perhaps similar, but not).
31. Razorbacks? Chaos Razorbacks? PLEASE!?

DhaosAndy
19-11-2006, 07:38
Slanneshi daemons need to be a point or two more. A daemonette is superior to a genestealer in every way, but costs less. This would IMO, fix daemonbombs. The other daemons are priced correctly for what they do.

K

:wtf: Would you care to elucidate, how exactly is a daemonette superior to a genestealer?

A genestealer has better stats, more options and is fleet:confused:

Gimp
19-11-2006, 09:13
:wtf: Would you care to elucidate, how exactly is a daemonette superior to a genestealer?

A genestealer has better stats, more options and is fleet:confused:

Daemonettes are 15 pionts compared to the 16 points standard Genestealers.
But more importantly Daemonettes are summoned into battle (hopefully) into your enemys lines thus they dont get shot to pieces like foot slogging genestealers which die to heavy bolter and reaper autogun fire very easily.

Terrordar
19-11-2006, 09:28
As a Word Bearer, I certainly hope they don't remove Legion specific rules. That'd completely SCREW my army. No more Dark Apostle? Lame. I built a whole damn Daemon Prince around it.

Gimp
19-11-2006, 13:38
As a Word Bearer, I certainly hope they don't remove Legion specific rules. That'd completely SCREW my army. No more Dark Apostle? Lame. I built a whole damn Daemon Prince around it.

COOL.

I would love to see that.

And I agree I love the idea of the Legions Night Lords, Alpha legion and Word Bearers inculded

Freak Ona Leash
19-11-2006, 13:45
I vote they make a Codex: Chaos. With rules for the Undivided Legions like Night Lords and Alpha Legion etcetera, as well as rules for Lost and the Damned. Then make Codices Slaanesh, Tzeentch, Khorne and Nurgle. Just for symmetry.

synapse
19-11-2006, 13:58
check this thread out. we came up with rules and many many suggestions for a new csm codex (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48806&highlight=additions+to+the+csm+codex)

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
19-11-2006, 14:09
-Create 2 codices: Codex: Chaos Space Marines and Codex:Chaos Cults
first shoud contain rules for 9 orginal legions.second shoud contain corrupted guard/like latd/.
-Restrictions should stay as they are now
-switch obliterators and dreadnought in FOC/make dreds elites and oblits heavy s/
-no more 4 heavy support in IW
-make deamon prince and chaos lord as 2 entries as i propose at 3 page of this thread
-add Malal as 5th god and his sons of malice /not likely to happend.
-Better 1ksons
-perhaps make chaos chosen worth their cost/make them ws5?,or make let them attach to another unit as a 2nd champion that count toward sacred number -this will add some firepower to 1ksons
-make psychic powers chaper or more vialable and get rid of minor psychic powers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
-make deamonic fires sth like:range 18" S4 AP5 Assault 2 -2d6 for penetration -this will give tzeench some antitank capabilities and will be in line with background/i suppose :rolleyes: /
-i personally like to see some fast moving close combat deamon engine
- BETTER RAPTORS, PERHAPS GIVE THEM SPECIAL RULES FOR EXTRA +d6 MOVE AT THE START OF YOUR TURN /this rule could be called NEED FOR SPEED :) /,get rid of krak granades please !!!!!!!!!!!!!! EVEN ASSAULT MARINES ARE BETTER THAN RAPTORS :cries:
-give us DROP PODS
-make reaper autocannons R36" S7 Ap4 Heavy 4

Z-chan
19-11-2006, 16:43
0-1 Obliterator Cults. PLEASE. Iron Warriors can keep their 4 HS slots, just restrict the damn Oblits...

Lord Humongous
19-11-2006, 17:46
How about a fast attack / deamonic beast for Nurgle?

"Plague Hound"- same stats and abilities as a Plague Bearer, moves as beast / cavalry, costs 5 more points then a plague bearer / same cost as a flesh hound. Available in units of 5-10.

This wouldn't even require a new model (at least not right away) - a decent paint job on chaos hounds or any other hound model would do, and those who wanted them really nurgly could easily do some chop-n-putty conversions.

Yog_Sothoth
19-11-2006, 18:24
How bout bringing back the Nurgle Slime thingy that looked like a caterpillar? Really liked them even though I wasn&#180;t into Nurgle back then.

DhaosAndy
19-11-2006, 18:31
But more importantly Daemonettes are summoned into battle (hopefully) into your enemys lines thus they dont get shot to pieces like foot slogging genestealers which die to heavy bolter and reaper autogun fire very easily.

We'll have to agree to disagree, :) because to me better stats & fleet for 1 pt + an option to infiltrate far out ways the rather dubious benefit of summoning.

Wish list:-

1. A Chaos Codex, covering CSM's & traitors mutants, etc. (Don't really mind if it's one book, two or even three.)

2. Viable TS list, inc. All is dust. Rubric MOT restricted to TS armies, perhaps 0-1 in others, all vehicles must be possessed in TS lists.

3. WE armies, made a little more interesting to play.

4. IW: make Obliterators 0-2, remove basalisk option & extra HS slot, include some sort of daemonic siege engine instead? FA 0-1.

5. Psychic Powers/Wargear:- available to block psychic attacks.

6. Get rid of minor psychic powers (end of siren abomination) have say 4 generic powers + 2 per god.

7. More to follow......

ashc
19-11-2006, 19:50
How bout bringing back the Nurgle Slime thingy that looked like a caterpillar? Really liked them even though I wasnt into Nurgle back then.

Beast of Nurgle is what you are looking for.

Ash

Kriegsherr
19-11-2006, 20:22
What would I like in the new codex. Well for one, raptors suck, so get them fixed.

They don't "suck". They are to expensive. Loyalist marine assault marines got a price drop, so I expect raptors will get it too.




Either get rid of obliterators or slash the cost.


:wtf: Oblits are already one of the best and most abused units in the game. Making them even cheaper would be joke, a bad one.
Omnipotence comes at a price, you know....




Bloodthirsters should be higher initiative.


This WH40k, not an anime. Something big and hulking should be big and hulking, not big but supersonic. Khorne is not the god of speedlines (that is slanneesh for some twisted reasons that escape my understanding), but the god of long, hard, slow swings with big, heavy and bloody axes. At least its the image both the Bloodthirster/Bloodletters and the berzerkers carry.

So no to higher initiative from me




Troops are perfect, you get what you pay for.


Well, Marines are rather on the cheap side as all marines are, and 'nettes should get a little bit more pricey, but else... yeah, its not that bad




Chaos spawn should be a kind of daemon troops choice.


Spawns are not demons. The nurgle Beast and Slannesh beasts are, but these are two different unit types. and they should be fast attack.




Bloodletters should be 2 points less.


:wtf: again. Do you realize they already are cheaper for what they do and get than even the quite good-value marines? they should get their "power muscle" save removed for the same points or maybe a two-four points drop.




Lost and Damned should be not be included. The codex is Chaos Space Marine, not Chaos. After all, LaD do suck.


Sorry to disappoint you, but there actually are a lot of players out there like me that couldn't care less about chaos marines but really want LatD.
And even a lot of Chaos marine players would like some traitor guard or mutants for a nice little diversity in their armies.

The Codex should be chaos... and CSM should be a very little part of it, if I would be in charge (well to be honest, then every legion would get its own dex... along with any demonworld, croneworld, traitor regiment, and chaos pirate fleet I could think of ).
CSM are only a very small part of the chaos hosts, an important part in most, but quite rare. The dex should reflect this and give the player the option to play pure mutant lists, pure traitor guard, or pure chaos marine.... or any mix of the three.

Just for your information, before the 2nd ed codex, there were lists for CSM and LatD around. For some stupid reason I can't understand they kicked everything without armoured panties (aka power armour) out of the list and made a chaos Space Marine dex instead of a chaos dex.
Can you imagine how angry I as a 16 year old teenager was when I found out my beloved, converted beastmen were no longer usable because of some stupid jerk in the studio muttering to himself "Marines sell! Mutants... we don't know. We never have done them. A, just go with the selling stuff!" ?




As far as wargear goes, we have the most so im not complaining.


I do. Demonic Stature is too cheap. Fix it.




Make the reaper autocannon an option for the havocs to carry.


Why? They have normal ACs already, and Termies should have access to special weaponry.




Allow drop pod rules. After all, we do have dreadclaws and we are Space Marines.


Beeing jealous of imperial shiney toys? ;)
Seriously, no. Not even more "oh we can use this sprue also for the chaos marines!" stuff. Make demon engines, come up with some original concepts. Cause we are pre-heresy space marines and use the real bad stuff imperial marines can only dream of.




Give Tzeench lascannons. Even imperial guardsmen can fire them, so why can't mindless automatons?


Maybe because IG Soldiers are not mindless?
But anyway, good point here. Cult marines should have more access to special and heavy weapons or original replacements for them.




As far as daemon princes go, well, only cheap people use them in 1,000 point armies. They are powerful enough as is considering they can kill anything if you use them right.

They are to cheap, yes, if thats what you wanted to say. And no, its possible to build a non-OTT-DP.... no-one forces you to use the max-build.

I use one in 1000 points sometimes... hes gotten beaten by IG Soldiers in CC on multiple occasions because I'm a cheap bastard when it comes to spendin' points for charas :p




31. Razorbacks? Chaos Razorbacks? PLEASE!?

Oi... thats a lot of wishes.... most of them not bad at all.

But this one, please, NO! No more "loot the imperial rides" *****. Come up with original concepts and vehicles instead of putting spikes and grinning faces on imperial ones. 10'000 years and billions of willing slave workers are more than enough times and resources for new ideas, concepts and vehicles.

A Demon Engine with transport capacity for example would be nice. Maybe even with some danger involved that it eats one of its passengers.

Bloodknight
19-11-2006, 22:39
Kriegsherr is right; I agree in every aspect.

Freak Ona Leash
19-11-2006, 22:48
I vote Daemon engines. Lots of them. Because you know, Kriegsherr was right, why loot **** Imperial stuff if we can just mutate organics and metal together into the ultimate killy-machine-of-gothic-doomness? I agree with everything that Kriegsherr said really. Except about Stature. Ezekiel likes his Daemonic Stature nice, cheap and a no-brainer, thank you :P

Acolyte of Bli'l'ab
19-11-2006, 23:44
Less emphasis on chaos marines and more on the daemons would interest me enough to start a chaos tzeentch army.

Creep
20-11-2006, 01:54
Haven't read the whole thread, but here are my ideas:

In addition to the current list, add the LatD units in they're respective places. Every squad that takes a champion can upgrade to have a specific mark (each will come with its own benefits, cost based per squad member), the effect of this mark could be different based on different units.

Your command MUST choose one mark, the rest of this army MUST have this mark, unless the commander chooses MoCU, which in this case you can get other squads a mark for triple the points (to allow use of those elites spots).

Daemons made more unstable to use, along with a small points decrease (instability test on base ld every turn?).

FIX THE THOUSAND SONS!

Having a cult army has its own benefits, unlocking special units, etc.

Make every unit useable (Im looking at you, Thousand Sons Possessed and Chosen squads!)

Daemon Princes are fine in my opinion, but make them useable in 1500+ points battles, they are just too tough for anything under.

Some kind of cult-specific elites daemon only for use in the respective cult army.

Tidy up the dex, get all the information listed in one general area instead of all over the place

Thats about all I can think of now, will post more if I feel it is necessary.

EDIT: More and better psychic powers for tzeentch, please. Twisting path blows, and here I thought we relied on our psykers over our rubrics to win? A nice power like the marine fear thing would be great, as well as something that uses a mind-war like roll-off to pin a unit.

chaos0xomega
20-11-2006, 02:38
Daemonettes are 15 pionts compared to the 16 points standard Genestealers.
But more importantly Daemonettes are summoned into battle (hopefully) into your enemys lines thus they dont get shot to pieces like foot slogging genestealers which die to heavy bolter and reaper autogun fire very easily.

You realize that Daemonettes and Genestealers are in two different armies, and that both units are priced and balanced according to the force that it is part of. Comparing Genestealers and Daemonettes is like (exuces the cliche) comparing apples and oranges.

And what is it with all your anti 4hs/oblits in Iron Warriors armies? They are far from invincible, at least at lower points values.

I can understand removing the vindicator(that's not a siege type thing), but not the bassie(unless it's replaced with a chaos equivalent). Also, keep in mind that obliterators are the closest things that chaos has to a 'siege trooper' that doesn't chew up heavy support slots. Perhaps obliterators just have to be toned down a bit(remove some of their weapon options, some are just redundant anyway). Either that, or give IW marines(troops marines) more siege-y options, like field guns.


A Demon Engine with transport capacity for example would be nice. Maybe even with some danger involved that it eats one of its passengers.

Yeah, that's more of what I meant, don't really like this whole loot the Imperium thing.

Kriegsherr
20-11-2006, 09:51
Ezekiel likes his Daemonic Stature nice, cheap and a no-brainer, thank you :P

We all like our stuff no-brainy, don't we ;)

But seriously, I will list the stuff you get for the point cost of an imperial marine:

- Power Weapon
- Meltarules in CC
- + 1 WS
- + 1 T
- + 1 S
- + Beeing able to fire two weapons (not used much, but anyway)
- able to re-roll terrain tests (Monstrous creature)

For this, you get this two drawbacks:

- - 2 BS
- Restricted access to CC and Shooting weapons (but honestly, he doesn't need a fist does he?)
- Can't hide behind non-monstrous squads (not much of an issue if he runs forward in a mad killing spree)

Now this all would cost, if bought separatly, around three or four times as much as it costs now.
The really bad thing is, that DPs can still buy the stuff again separatly (+ 1 T, + 1 S), and even then he doesn't pay more for it. In the end you can build a Character that costs as much as a pimped out imperial marine commander, but is just superior in any aspect.

But well, lets see what the GW blokes come up with for chaos characters. I just hope they just make them more expensive were I think that its needed and not just drop stuff.

azimaith
20-11-2006, 10:04
0-1 Obliterator Cults. PLEASE. Iron Warriors can keep their 4 HS slots, just restrict the damn Oblits...

I don't see a reason to limit obliterators for Iron Warriors, just move Oblits to the Heavy Support section and move Chaos dreadnaughts to elites.

Then its either oblits or pie plates, or a mix of both, but not oblits and pie plates. And I'd just plain get rid of 4 HS for Iron warriors, access to the Basilisk and no 0-1 limit on obliterators is enough, especially since they get all of that *for zero extra points*.

An indirect fire missile pod with S8 Ap3 Small blast for dreads would fit well with a seige theme.

Iron Warriors are supposed to be a siege army, siege armies don't just bring every single heavy gun they can carry, lascannons aren't very useful for sieges, they're heavy weapons for blasting tanks, not for sustained fire over months at a fortress. More indirect fire/explosive weapons/plague/toxin style weapons are what is used for sieges. Some sort of promethium loaded shell that could set enemies on fire making them move out from under the template or something could work too.

Darkseer
20-11-2006, 10:22
Bring back chaos androids.

Kriegsherr
20-11-2006, 11:34
I don't see a reason to limit obliterators for Iron Warriors, just move Oblits to the Heavy Support section and move Chaos dreadnaughts to elites.

Then its either oblits or pie plates, or a mix of both, but not oblits and pie plates. And I'd just plain get rid of 4 HS for Iron warriors, access to the Basilisk and no 0-1 limit on obliterators is enough, especially since they get all of that *for zero extra points*.

An indirect fire missile pod with S8 Ap3 Small blast for dreads would fit well with a seige theme.

Iron Warriors are supposed to be a siege army, siege armies don't just bring every single heavy gun they can carry, lascannons aren't very useful for sieges, they're heavy weapons for blasting tanks, not for sustained fire over months at a fortress. More indirect fire/explosive weapons/plague/toxin style weapons are what is used for sieges. Some sort of promethium loaded shell that could set enemies on fire making them move out from under the template or something could work too.

Agree with all points. IW shouldn't be the heavy weapon wonder, but concentrate more on real siege weapons.
Maybe their oblits should even get different weapon options, more in theme with the siege warfare

Maximillianus
20-11-2006, 12:12
It would simply be ridiculous to move the obliterators to the HS section, unless they get more powerful and therefore expensive.

They should remain Elite and be either 0-2 for IW or 0-3 but require 2 Troops choices for each Oblit squad. (i.e 6 Troops choices in order to have 3 Oblit squads)

The Basilisks should go away, but they should give access to new demonic (siege) engines.

4 HS but NO Fast Attack or 3 HS

No daemons, no possessed, no mutations etc.

More Bionic/Tech stuff.

I agree with the Siege Weapons/Configurations. As they are now they are simply a bad attempt to simulate a heavily armed siege force. They can do better than that.

vampires are cool!
20-11-2006, 13:55
make bloodthirsters bigger and more hitty

DhaosAndy
20-11-2006, 14:42
In the end you can build a Character that costs as much as a pimped out imperial marine commander, but is just superior in any aspect.


I notice you don't include the downside of stature, which is not insignificant, a DP is freely targetable and a marine commander is not. It is also hideously expensive to turn a DP into a scoring unit, not so the marine commander.

A marine commander also provides other benefits which a DP does not.

Siren is broken and should just go. Other than that while DP's are very powerful units in some ways they are weak in others. I can see some arguments for an increase in cost for statured DP's but not a decrease in power.

Carlos
20-11-2006, 17:56
Right, first and foremost the Chaos players can say what they like but the present Chaos Codex is just far too bloated. There are too many options, and hardly any of them get used at all. So I say rework the Codex from the ground up ala thre new Eldar Codex. I would make the list more flexible so that we see:

More marine-heavy undivided armies
More God-specific armies
The same mixed armies, but with a bit of restriction in some cases
Lost and the Damned somehow worked into the list.
Get rid of legion-specific lists and swallow them all into the main list again ala eldar. A greater variety of veteran abilities would offset this to enable base marines to be much more flexible.

My idea is a complete overhaul and looks like this:

Special Rules:

10,000 years of War:
The forces of Chaos are one of the deadliest, most embittered fighting forces in the galaxy. For 10 Millenia they have lived for nothing else and thus are some of, if not the best and most flexible troops of all the enemies of the imperium. There is no tactic they have not mastered. The following options are available to any chaos player:

Exchange 2x Fast Attack and 1x Elite for an Extra 1x Heavy Support
Exchange 2x Heavy Support and 2x Fast Attack for an Extra 1x Elite Choice
Exchange 2x Heavy Support for an extra 1x Fast Attack choice.

Greater Daemons:
Possession remains as it is, with the exception that they can only possess models with their Gods Mark. No undivided model may be possessed by a Greater Daemon. The Gods only gift their most powerful servants to their most loyal subjects.

Daemons:
Remain as they are now, but may be centred on an Aspiring Champion instead of having to mess around with Icons and such things. Get rid of instability and replace with normal morale checks. Up base Ld to compenstate however.

Nemesis:
The forces of Chaos are the arch foe of the imperium and will one day bring about its ultimate doom. All Chaos Models (Not Daemon Packs) may choose to ignore morale tests caused by shooting by imperial forces. This does not apply to the Grey Knights of models of the Ordo Malleus however.

Marks of Chaos:
Undivided: Models count as Stubborn
Khorne: +1A, Chainaxe, Fearless+Blood Rage
Nurgle: +1T, True Grit, Extra Close combat weapon, Fearless.
Tzeentch: +1W, Slow and Purposeful, Fearless
Slaanesh: +1I, Fearless, Counter Attack.

HQ:

0-1 Lord (Remains as he is)
0-1 Daemon Prince (Niether the Lord nor Prince may be possessed by a greater daemon)
0-1 Greater Daemon (Fine as they are)
Leutenant (fine)

ELITES:
Chosen (Terminators as Standard. There are NO players out there who take power armoured chosen. None. Not 0-1)

0-1 Obliterators (Lord of Undivided Only)

Possessed (As now, stuff that has special rules vs daemons affects them)

Daemon Packs (May be taken as troops if Lord has corresponding Mark, eg Plaguebearers may be troops choice provided Lord of Nurgle)

TROOPS:
Chaos Marines (May have Marks of Khorne, Nurgle or Tzeentch. Marked Units are Elites unless Lord has corresponding mark)

Chaos Cultists (Reworked. May not have more Cultists than Marine Squads UNLESS General is a Greater Daemon and you have NO Marine units at all as troops)
NB: This is so players can have chaos cultists/daemon armies with greater daemons as the HQ

FAST ATTACK:

Daemon Packs (As now)

Bikers (May only have mark of Unidivided. No others)

Raptors (0-1 for None-Undivided armies)

HEAVY SUPPORT:

Defiler (0-1 for None-Undivided led armies)

Predator
Dreadnought
Land Raider (Marine Lord ONLY)



Right then. Some Controvertial choices I know but this way Unidivided armies get the same slice of the cake as God-specific armies. Players must choose whether they want daemons and marked units or take a more well rounded army with Obliterators and Raptors as viable options.

The FoC altering means the various Legions can still vary their structure without being overpowering.

In the world of special characters, only Abaddon gets the ability to count as a Lord with all 5 marks, so his army can take everything!

DhaosAndy
20-11-2006, 20:51
@ Carlos

OK from the top

I'll ignore the ignorance and antagonism of the first two paragraphs

Special Rules:

10,000 years of War:
No

Greater Daemons:
No, at the very least this contradicts the background of the Black Legion

Daemons:
No, fine as is.

Nemesis:
No, way overpowered

Marks of Chaos:
Undivided: fine as is
Khorne: same as now but blood rage should apply to all models with no bonus movement for models with a special movement mode.
Nurgle: fine as is.
Tzeentch: current situation needs a serious rethink
Slaanesh: fine as is..

HQ:

0-1 Lord fine as is, but see previous remarks viz a viz stature
0-1 Greater Daemon The Keeper and the Lord of Change need to be made more expensive and more powerful, possibly allowing all GD's access to rewards/gifts at say double Lord price.
Leutenant (fine) OK

ELITES:
Chosen (Terminators as Standard. :wtf: There are NO players out there who take power armoured chosen. None. Not 0-1) Highlighted for total material inaccuracy

0-1 Obliterators (Lord of Undivided Only) NO

Possessed (As now, stuff that has special rules vs daemons affects them)

Daemon Packs fine as is but some way to take an army entirely consisting of daemons would be nice.

TROOPS:
fine as is

"Chaos Cultists (Reworked. May not have more Cultists than Marine Squads UNLESS General is a Greater Daemon and you have NO Marine units at all as troops)
NB: This is so players can have chaos cultists/daemon armies with greater daemons as the HQ" This is a good idea:)

FAST ATTACK:

Daemon Packs Need expanding so each god has a beast and mount/rider combo

Bikers (May only have mark of Unidivided. No others) NO

Raptors (0-1 for None-Undivided armies) Maybe

HEAVY SUPPORT:

Defiler (0-1 for None-Undivided led armies) No, just no

Predator
Dreadnought
Land Raider (Marine Lord ONLY):wtf:



"Right then. Some Controvertial choices I know but this way Unidivided armies get the same slice of the cake as God-specific armies. Players must choose whether they want daemons and marked units or take a more well rounded army with Obliterators and Raptors as viable options.

The FoC altering means the various Legions can still vary their structure without being overpowering.

In the world of special characters, only Abaddon gets the ability to count as a Lord with all 5 marks, so his army can take everything! "

Well one good idea in a post of that length isn't too bad I suppose:mad: , you really should make a more detailed study of the background before suggesting wholesale changes to a codex, which is too short rather than too bloated.

Great Harlequin
20-11-2006, 21:25
Death to Siren!

It's not unbeatable, but for some armies it's impossible. I'd also make Thousand Sons have really decent powers, and have Sorcerers on a par with Librarians. Fury of the Ancients with every Tactical squad? Yes, please!

Tom
20-11-2006, 21:51
30. Remove the Vindicator option for IW, Vindi's are a lot rarer and harder to come by than a Bassie is, the bassie should be modified in some way to represent it's chaosy-ness, or just replace it with something new entirely(perhaps similar, but not).


Given that the average decent IW player spends about 45-50 on that one tank* (By decent I mean actually plays instead of just wins) including myself, this would be... not conductive to happy.

Nuts to the Basilisk (Puny HUMAN tanks? In MY army?), just let me keep the one thing from the IW section apart from Siege Specialists and Servo Arms I actually plan on using...


*Vindicator conversion kit, Chaos Extra Armour from Forgeworld, Chaos Rhino from GW, a hell of a lot of time gettibng it to go together, and more time sorting out the fact that it'll probably be the army showpiece. If you're not using the FW bitz, then even more time and effort spent on scratchbuilding the damn thing.

chaos0xomega
21-11-2006, 02:40
It would simply be ridiculous to move the obliterators to the HS section, unless they get more powerful and therefore expensive.

They should remain Elite and be either 0-2 for IW or 0-3 but require 2 Troops choices for each Oblit squad. (i.e 6 Troops choices in order to have 3 Oblit squads)

The Basilisks should go away, but they should give access to new demonic (siege) engines.

4 HS but NO Fast Attack or 3 HS

No daemons, no possessed, no mutations etc.

More Bionic/Tech stuff.

I agree with the Siege Weapons/Configurations. As they are now they are simply a bad attempt to simulate a heavily armed siege force. They can do better than that.

I can agree to this. A limit should be placed on chosen as well. Perhaps to make things more siege-y for the IW is to replace their CSM w/ Havocs instead(I haven't looked at their rules in a while), so that the IW players have more incentive to take them? Oh, and no Rhino's. That's not siege-y. I'm tempted to say no LR either, but that has it's siege uses...


Get rid of legion-specific lists and swallow them all into the main list again ala eldar. A greater variety of veteran abilities would offset this to enable base marines to be much more flexible.
Wouldn't work. A trait system would do the job much more nicely. Also, the system you propose is way to complicated, something that GW doesn't want to do. They would rather move units around on the FOC slots, not the slots themselves.


Chaos Cultists (Reworked. May not have more Cultists than Marine Squads UNLESS General is a Greater Daemon and you have NO Marine units at all as troops)

Cultists often times don't have access to that level of daemonhood. Instead, drop the cultist-marine association, and allow them to be fielded instead of marines if a non-marine HQ is taken(traitor general, or one of the witch/daemonhunter evil hq choices).

Also, I think chosen should be altered so that they aren't just a fecked up squad of marines. They should be hardcore beat-em-up ****'s, that don't need powerarmor to stay alive.

zendral
21-11-2006, 04:04
I agree with a lot on this post, mainly with the ability to intermix latd and chaos marines, as well as boost the sons and bringing back a few things.

I would like to see a special character for each legion. Night lords, word bearers, alpha legion, iron warriors, as well as keeping the rest for the other legions. Ahriman needs to be worked on, and possibly tweek the rest of them.

Perhaps make a difference between the chaos space marines of "the now" and those of back then. Maybe upgrade them to vets then be able to take vet skills and 1+ to LD. Effectively makeing the same chaos marines in the current codex, but at least there is an option to have "young blood" chaos marines that could be cheaper cannon fodder or whatever else.

Maximillianus
21-11-2006, 10:27
Given that the average decent IW player spends about 45-50 on that one tank* (By decent I mean actually plays instead of just wins) including myself, this would be... not conductive to happy.

Nuts to the Basilisk (Puny HUMAN tanks? In MY army?), just let me keep the one thing from the IW section apart from Siege Specialists and Servo Arms I actually plan on using...


*Vindicator conversion kit, Chaos Extra Armour from Forgeworld, Chaos Rhino from GW, a hell of a lot of time gettibng it to go together, and more time sorting out the fact that it'll probably be the army showpiece. If you're not using the FW bitz, then even more time and effort spent on scratchbuilding the damn thing.

Thumbs up!!! I cannot agree more! :D I just finished my heavily modified Forgeworld IW Vindicator. :evilgrin:

Really now, it is certainly not overpowered and I have yet to see it abused (unlike the Basi); it fits the siege theme perfectly too.

Archaeon
21-11-2006, 10:31
But they phase out. Don't aim at them, aim at the warriors.

Excellent point m8. Best ive seen all day.

Archaeon
21-11-2006, 10:47
Bloodthirsters shouldn't have higher initiative, otherwise they'd be too powerfull against HQ, it's hard enough to kill them already.
Bloodletters should be 2 points more. They are too powerfull already, I think it's a bit unfair.
Lost and The Damned should be included because that's wat the biggest part of Chaos armys are made of. The Codex should be called: Codex: Chaos. Ow and LatD don't suck.
The current autocannons are strong enough on Havocs.
Dread Claws would be nice, but very overpowered. Chaos has to many powerfull cc warriors who would have to much advantages if they could be deepstriked. (nobody wants 8 Khorne Possessed with Talons behind their enemy lines)
Because IG are smarter than automatons.

Oh and with "somesort of Distruption table" for the AL I didn't exactly meant the same as the Eldar had. And even then it would probably replace the cheaper-infiltration they currently have.


Righto. Have you ever seen/fought a lost and damned army??? DO you actually collect chaos??? They are tactically a joke. Seriously, ive been playing for 5 years and ive never seen a win in gt for LaD. Or against me. The bloodthirster is 205 points. You dont get what you pay for. Compare it to the new avatar for instance. That thing is a little weaker and slower and has fewer attacks, but the BT is a whole 50 points more than it. Considering the Avatar is int 6 aswell and has a new flame attack with a template. All im saying is that since it is a geater daemon, it should be initiative 5 at least just to get first strike against troops. That is what HQ's do. And BT's are very easy to kill if you have the right stuff to do the job. Also, bloodletters are ridiculously expensive. 'Specially for int4. I suggest that they be dumbed down in strength to 4 and given feel no pain instead of a 3+.
As far as ig go, that had nothing to do with my suggestion. I think tzeench need lascannons. If you can fire and reload a bolter, then you can point and shoot a lascannnon. Whilst the current autocannons are string enough for havocs, im suggesting that they be completely replaced with the Reaper. It is a CHaos weapon after all. SO it would add a bit of flavour to the havocs. Since devastators can carry frikkin plasma cannons, a reaper would only be fair. ANd seriously buddy, deep striking berzerkers....are you mad??? They cant infiltrate because they get bored with sneaking and chop each other up. So how in the hell would they manage berzerkers. Also, nobody in the right mind uses possessed berzerkers. They are asking for heavies and hoarding. I was suggesting that the ability to drop pod be introduced. NOT DEEP STRIKE, but drop pod. Tis a different thing altogether. ON another note, i really think the WS on the defiler should be increased. Unlikely but one can dream....:D

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
21-11-2006, 11:54
Keep Legion Specific Rules:
Cost of the marks same as now.
In Cult army keep sacred number.
Lower cost for Major Psychic Power/make 4 basic plus 1 for Nurgle and slaanesh and 2 for tzeench/ and get rid of Minor psychic powers.at least 2 shoud be static power.
Add Drop Pods!!!!!
Make reaper autocannons R36" S7 AP4 Assault4

Mark of Undivided as it is.

Khorne:
Mark of Khorne: +1A.Blood Frenzy on 1,2 for models with infantry movement/if they are transported transport get extra movement/. Furious charge costs 5/1 pts form models with mark of khorne, can't take infiltration.

Change Bloodletters/give feel no pain get rid of 3+ save/

Nurgle:
Mark of Nurgle:Keep as it is.But give plague knifes as standard ccw.

Blight Granades cost altered/15 pts/

Give some fast attack unit:deamon or mortal.

Slaanesh:
Mark of Slaanesh:Warp Scream/-1I for enemy/.Bolt Weapons gets sonic shells as standard.

Sonic shells:Keep S of the weapon/4 or 5/ but change ap to AP-.For every unsaved wound unit gets -1ld for this turn and must take one this turn of shooting. If the unit fails Ld test it make fall back move toward nearest enemy unit.If at the start of next turn the unit is in 6" from enemy unit it is pinned and automatically rally./i hope it is readable :) /

Sonic Gun:/price of meltagun/R12" S5 AP- Assault 4 sonic shells.

Tactical Drugs:/only usable by 1 wound characters - 15 pts/you can use it during any player shooting phase - choose up to 2 effects:
-re-roll to hit rolls in close combat
-+1S
-ignore first unsaved wound this turn not from power weapon or 2xT recived by squad member/not IC/.

some kind of item on vehicles that gives -1ld on enemy in LoS at R18/12"

Tzeench:
Mark of Tzeench:Sorcerers-same.Rubric-same and they get Feel no Pain for weapons with S4 or less.

Change statline tzeench horrors and flamers and tweak cost:
WS3 BS3 S3 T4 W2 I3 A1 LD8
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Deamonc fire should looks like R18" S4 AP5 Assault 2 and gets +d6S against vehicles.


HQ:

0-1 Chaos Lord or Deamon Prince/as i propose earlier/
0-1 Greater Deamon/maybe even Undivided one/
Chaos Sorcerer/Lieutenant statline but with talisman witch gives enemy psykers -2 LD in 24" radius/

Elites:
0-1 Chosen:Give them WS5 or some daemonic gift to make them worth their cost.rest as in actual codex.

0-1 Chosen Champions:each unit contains 1-3 champion that can be add to the squad and count as squad member for purpose of sacred number,gets special rules but must buy some equipment to move as rest or the squad/solve tzeench problem with lack of heavy dakka/

Possesed/make them at least playable not such overpriced as thay are now-lower the cost of deamonic ifts for them.

Chaos Dreadnought - give option to mark them.drop pod.either HtH, shooty one,or mix of both.
-mark of Nurgle - +1Front Armour or always in cover/not sure/
-mark of Khorne - +1 attack, frenzy at 1-2 no shooty frenzy.
-mark of Tzeench - deamonic possesion/dust is dust/
-mark of Slaanesh - enemy shooting at it must pass ld test or dont shoot at all.

Deamon pack as it is/can be troops/

Troops:
Marines:fine as it is

Fast Attack:

Chaos Bikers:Keep as it is or give them skilled rider.

Deamon Beast:Add slaaneshi nad nurglesque ones.

Chaos Raptors: 26 pts,current statline,drop krak granades jump pack instead of daemonic flight( :wtf: they HAVE jump packs!!!!!!) Give need for speed rule.not usable if lord or prince have mark other than undivided or no mork at all.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Need for Speed:Models with need for speed gets additional +d6 move at the start of your turn and always count as moved.If you roll 1 you recive 1 wound/with normal saves/.Models with NfS gets Hit&Run USR.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Heavy Support:

0-1 Obliterators/as they are now :) /

Defiler

Predator/give us chaos pattern with reaper autocannon/

Land Raider

Ok so now Non cult legions:
Night Lords:
Only MoCU or non-marked.No limit on Raptors.0-1 Defiler,Predator Destructor,Possessed.No Land Raider,Predator Anihilator.6 men strong squad of bikes are troops or FA.Every model gets Night Vision.Any model can buy stealth adept for 5/1 pts

Need for Speed costs 10/5 pts.

World Bearers:
Only MoCU or non-marked.Can have any deamon as troop as they normally are in FoC.

Accursed Crozius:40/- PW with 4++ save and give fearless.

Ruler of the Warp and Living icon can be bought for Lord for 10 pts.

Iron Wariors:
Only MoCU or non-marked.0-1 Bikes,Possessed.No limit on Obliterators.Every model gets Sige Master(?).Any model can buy Bionics for 5/1 pts.

Servo-Arms for IC good priced.

Alpha legion:
Keep as it is.Deserve some nice hydra equipment.

Kriegsherr
21-11-2006, 13:43
I notice you don't include the downside of stature, which is not insignificant, a DP is freely targetable and a marine commander is not. It is also hideously expensive to turn a DP into a scoring unit, not so the marine commander.

A marine commander also provides other benefits which a DP does not.

Siren is broken and should just go. Other than that while DP's are very powerful units in some ways they are weak in others. I can see some arguments for an increase in cost for statured DP's but not a decrease in power.

I did include that. Its the last point in the downside list.

But as said, I don't see it as a big downside as DPs most of the time go on a killing spree alone and run towards the enemy line with a crazy speed (or even fly).

Its quite easy and cheap to turn it into a scoring unit. One chaos hound, A chaos Spawn costs 20 or the berserk blade all are much cheaper than a command squad which is the only way to make a loyalist marine chara count.

Agreed, the new special rules of the imperial Marine charas are nifty... but they are not for free.

I don't want to promote a downgrading of the powerlevel of DPs. Some wargear and demonic gift combinations should be reviewed (and different actions taken like an additional price increase or restriction taken), and stature should get more expensive. Apart of that (and the scrapping of the minor powers), I'm completly cool with Demon Princes as they are one of the things that really differentiate Chaos Marines from imperial ones.

DhaosAndy
21-11-2006, 14:38
Its quite easy and cheap to turn it into a scoring unit. One chaos hound, A chaos Spawn costs 20 or the berserk blade all are much cheaper than a command squad which is the only way to make a loyalist marine chara count.

Except; :eyebrows: the hound would die in the first combat, the spawn would prevent the use of skills/special movement modes and the glaive wouldn't make the DP a scoring unit anyway.

The only practical way to make a DP a scoring unit is to add a retinue. In order to use speed/flight they would all have to be Asp. Chps. So even at minimum strength thats a 200pt + unit, add in a couple more for survivability and the retinue costs more than the DP!:)

Gimp
21-11-2006, 14:43
A retinu aint that bad I actually like em

Kriegsherr
21-11-2006, 14:46
Except; :eyebrows: the hound would die in the first combat, the spawn would prevent the use of skills/special movement modes and the glaive wouldn't make the DP a scoring unit anyway.

The only practical way to make a DP a scoring unit is to add a retinue. In order to use speed/flight they would all have to be Asp. Chps. So even at minimum strength thats a 200pt + unit, add in a couple more for survivability and the retinue costs more than the DP!:)

okay wasn't sure about the glaive. It turns him into a normal unit, but I think this got FAQ'd right? I have the 1st printing of the chaos dex.
The hounds have a very low save, true. But against some armies the T4 is more than enough, and you can have 4 of them.

Granted DPs often fight against other charas and stuff that kill the hounds without probs... now, marines don't have anymore resilence against this kind of unit than hounds as they also don't get the save, so at least in the hounds case your point is somewhat missing.

and then there is the point that if a SM Commander is using a bike or a JPack, he normally doesn't even have the option to take a retinue using the same movement speed.

So I don't see were the DP would be worse in regard of the retinues available than his imperial counterparts.

DhaosAndy
21-11-2006, 15:11
"okay wasn't sure about the glaive. It turns him into a normal unit, but I think this got FAQ'd right? I have the 1st printing of the chaos dex."

Basicaly right, doesn't remove IC status so still doesn't score :(

"The hounds have a very low save, true. But against some armies the T4 is more than enough, and you can have 4 of them."

My point was that if you have one, it'll be killed in combat, where it's a seperate unit. Also if you have one or even four the DP will not be the uber prince of legend because as regards uber princedom they aren't the most efficient use of points.

"Granted DPs often fight against other charas and stuff that kill the hounds without probs... now, marines don't have anymore resilence against this kind of unit than hounds as they also don't get the save, so at least in the hounds case your point is somewhat missing."

Actually the hound/s would be more of a problem for the character since he could attack the hound/s or the DP but not both. My point is that while you can use hounds to make a DP a scoring unit, that status is quickly and easily removed. Thus when fighting marines the DP and the hounds are seperate units the DP will kill some marines, then the marines will kill some hounds, the hounds will struggle to kill as many marines. The later doesn't matter because killing the hounds removes the DP's scoring unit status.

"and then there is the point that if a SM Commander is using a bike or a JPack, he normally doesn't even have the option to take a retinue using the same movement speed."

No, but he could shelter in a bike/assault squad:)

"So I don't see were the DP would be worse in regard of the retinues available than his imperial counterparts."

My point is not that the retinues available to the DP are worse merely that they are less efficient.

Kriegsherr
21-11-2006, 15:55
"and then there is the point that if a SM Commander is using a bike or a JPack, he normally doesn't even have the option to take a retinue using the same movement speed."

No, but he could shelter in a bike/assault squad:)

"So I don't see were the DP would be worse in regard of the retinues available than his imperial counterparts."

My point is not that the retinues available to the DP are worse merely that they are less efficient.

Same option can the DP take (Raptors and Chaos Bikes).

Its up to personal taste which retinue is seen as more efficient, the chaos chosen or the Marine command squads. I personally prefer the chaos version, especially for the possibileties shown to get a retinue without even using the expensive chosen.

But I see some good options imperials get that chaos don't like the apothecarius or the company champion.

Carlos
21-11-2006, 17:11
It was just an idea I had floating around. It seemed Ok at the time.

Anyway, all fair points but 90% of my battles are vs Chaos and not once have I ever seen Chosen in power armour.

Kriegsherr
21-11-2006, 17:25
It was just an idea I had floating around. It seemed Ok at the time.

Anyway, all fair points but 90% of my battles are vs Chaos and not once have I ever seen Chosen in power armour.

The only thing that means is that power armoured chosen are too less attractive compared to termi ones and especially compared to normal marines (that are cheaper and only get their ld a little bit lowered).

It doesn't means that this unit is redundant. Else Space Marine Veterans also should have been dropped long ago as it must been ages since I saw such unit beeing used the last time.
But even as they are, both PA chosen and SM veterans are fine, characterful units for campaigns, fluff players and friendly games were the powerlevel is not set too high.

DhaosAndy
22-11-2006, 04:55
Same option can the DP take (Raptors and Chaos Bikes).

Certainly he can join them but he gains no benefit by so doing:confused:

viokni
22-11-2006, 06:29
There is something I GREATLY want released with the new dex..... A DARK APOSTLE MODEL

ashc
22-11-2006, 08:52
There is something I GREATLY want released with the new dex..... A DARK APOSTLE MODEL

Why? its alot more fun to convert one like this:

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j306/ashc_2006/Word%20Bearers/DSC00140.jpg

Ash

Kriegsherr
22-11-2006, 09:54
Certainly he can join them but he gains no benefit by so doing:confused:

He gains the same benefit an imperial chara gets if he joins a bike or JPack Marine squad.

Or what did you mean?


Great conversion btw, Ash. Really looks like it should.... maybe the chaos sign on the unholy crozius need some green-stuff beefing up at the base to make it the thick handle. But else, great stuff.

DhaosAndy
22-11-2006, 15:15
Ah, I think we may be talking at cross purposes here. I was refering to a DP with stature, who definately does not benefit from joining squads and only gets the benefit of becoming a scoring unit by having a retinue, which only lasts as long as the retinue does.

The original thrust of my argument was that statures benefits are balanced by drawbacks, principally targetability.

Kriegsherr
22-11-2006, 15:45
Ah, I think we may be talking at cross purposes here. I was refering to a DP with stature, who definately does not benefit from joining squads and only gets the benefit of becoming a scoring unit by having a retinue, which only lasts as long as the retinue does.

The original thrust of my argument was that statures benefits are balanced by drawbacks, principally targetability.

Okay, yeah, up to some point I agree.

But its still ridicolous cheap, because a lot of the drawbacks are just the usual drawbacks of characters like the non-scoring part. Its true that most DP go on their killing spree without a retinue as they would only be in the way, but so do a lot of marine characters (especially against IG or Tau... nasty!), so I don't see this as a drawback of stature.
The rest, agreed.
- he can be targeted quite easely, but all charas can if they are the nearest target.
- he has a lower BS, but can fire two weapons at the same time.... to bad he can still only carry one two handed weapons and no pistols.
- he has a limited range of weapon options. But he already carries a melta-powerweapon and his strength can get up to S8 without much problems.

is there any drawback I've forgotten?

Anyway, I don't think there is a lot needed IMO.... only some point tweaking concerning the stature and some loophole filling generally in the chaos armoury

DhaosAndy
22-11-2006, 16:04
@Kriegsherr

I think we may have to agree to disagree, I just think you fail to appreciate how easy it is to target a statured DP compared to a marine IC (or indeed a non statured DP) and thus underestimate the extent of the drawback.

Bloodknight
22-11-2006, 16:10
The point with power armoured chosen is IMO that, especially in the cults, you don&#180;t get what you pay for. A chosen of Nurgle is in no way better than a bog standard Plaguemarine, but costs more. I sometimes fill in one into my termi squad to get the sacred number wihtout paying for the 6th terminator, but that&#180;s a rare occasion.

I for once do never play a statured daemon prince, I alwys see those getting shot without doing something worthwhile (exception here is a Khornate one). My little General on foot seems to do more damage.

Darkseer
22-11-2006, 16:16
I believe that 2 handed guns become 1 handed guns in the hands of a daemon prince.

kai gun and combi plasma anyone? :D
Silly, but cool.