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Victor Romeo
16-11-2006, 08:37
There are plenty of magic items that work against 'monsters' (collar of zorga, rune of the true beast etc) as well as a goodly selection of spells from the lore of beasts. When it comes to determining monsters it is usually fairly obvious; 50mm base and US higher than 3. Now my question is do these apply to character monsters EG: Treeman Ancient, Greater Demon, Shaggoth?

DeathlessDraich
16-11-2006, 08:44
Yes they are monsters. This is mentioned on the page for Unit strengths.
Monsters have a bigger base size - which makes my mother-in-law a Monster too - her base size is huge!:p

Sherlocko
16-11-2006, 10:32
It is not the base size wich counts when you learn what kind of unit is a monster. AFAIK it is linked to the US...

Festus
16-11-2006, 14:23
Hi

It is not the base size wich counts when you learn what kind of unit is a monster. AFAIK it is linked to the US...Neither nor...

Monsters are defined in the rulebook (p.8 IIRC, not having my rulebook at work).

Basically it is a unit of its own on - usually - a 40mm or 50mm base with a US of its starting wounds, and which may or may not be ridden. It can be flyer or earthbound, biped or quadruped, etc.

Festus

Sherlocko
16-11-2006, 14:32
But the rules is asterixed(or whatever it is called, an star at the end of the sentence) wich says it only have the same US as starting wound if otherwise not specified. Wich I think(and here comes the "I think"-part) is the status of slaan.

Festus
16-11-2006, 14:38
Hi

There are a few monsters which count higher or less US than starting wounds - only if explicitly given in their rules.

Otherwise, this holds true...

Festus

Dead
16-11-2006, 18:15
so what are salamanders?

Gorbad Ironclaw
17-11-2006, 07:39
The fun question is, what about things like Greater Demons and Demon Princes. Monsters? Characters? Both? What rulkes apply to them.?

Bloodknight
17-11-2006, 08:17
GD´s and DP´s are characters, they just move as monsters; in the same way Ogre bruisers etc. do.

Festus
17-11-2006, 09:58
Hi

Not quite: They are both: They follow the rules for characters (joining, Ld, challenges, etc.) AND they follow the rules for monsters (generally: US and LoS and Movement)

Festus

Atrahasis
17-11-2006, 10:18
Page 7, while at first glance appearing inadequate for the purpose, actually does a fairly good job of categorising all the different model types.

The aberrations (salamanders etc) are all due to 6th ed army books under 7th ed rules, and are easily dealt with by simply agreeing with your opponent (Salamanders, for example, make most sense as Monsters and Handlers).

ZomboCom
17-11-2006, 15:19
Page 7, while at first glance appearing inadequate for the purpose, actually does a fairly good job of categorising all the different model types.

The aberrations (salamanders etc) are all due to 6th ed army books under 7th ed rules, and are easily dealt with by simply agreeing with your opponent (Salamanders, for example, make most sense as Monsters and Handlers).

No, salamanders make no sense at all as monsters and handlers.

The monster and handler rules state that you use the charge arc of the monster for LOS for charging. Fine for a hydra, but which sally do you use for LOS in a unit with multiple sallys?

Salamanders are US3 on 40mm bases. Ruleswise they are Ogre class infantry, not monsters.

FatOlaf
17-11-2006, 15:54
The monster and handler rules state that you use the charge arc of the monster for LOS for charging. Fine for a hydra, but which sally do you use for LOS in a unit with multiple sallys?

Salamanders are US3 on 40mm bases. Ruleswise they are Ogre class infantry, not monsters.[/QUOTE]


I disagree, Since they are skirmishers they can use the LOS of any one of them, does not matter. But are monsters as well with handlers, who roll on the monster reaction table if all the handlers die.
So they are monsters...
Big orange fire breathing lovely ones!

Mezziah
18-11-2006, 13:15
But what about thoose greater daemons? Iīve seen a couple of different answers now, but what is correct?

Is a Bloodthirster considered a monster? Cuz my last battle my opponent used the collar of zorga on his Black orc riding a wyvern and when my BT tried hitting him (with WS10!!!) he could only hit him on a roll of 6.

Isnīt ogre-sized units also considered monsters? If that is the case then the collar of zorga would be very pointworth (5 points dammit!) against a beastmen minotaur list, or any Ogre kingdom list.

Festus
18-11-2006, 14:08
Hi

A BT is a monster and counts as a character as well (like all GD's and DP's).

An Ogre is not a moster, but Infantry. As is a Minotaur, a Troll and an Ushabti.

Festus

samw
18-11-2006, 14:29
I thought demon princes and exalted deamons counted as US3 regardless of wounds making them in fact come truly under the "character" section. My chaos book is at a friend's so if someone could check...

Festus
18-11-2006, 14:38
Hi

The new rules explicitly make Daemon Princes to Monsters (BRB, p.7). In the Case of exalted Daemons, it doesn't matter either way (edit: Not wholly true: If the Ex-Daemon is Nurgle, it is the difference between US3 and US4).

Festus

Dtrik
18-11-2006, 15:23
Wait, why would a salamander not be considered a monster? They are controlled creatures and when their handlers are killed they go to the monster reaction table if they fail an Ld test. Gotta be monsters.

As for the topic of slann as monsters, they have 50mm base but have US5 and W6 (or more if higher generation). I don't think they are considered monsters though...thats a good question.

I still think that with the release of the 7th edition books they should have started by giving each unit that is a monster a special rule called MONSTER! so these discussions can stop popping up:p

Wings of Doom
18-11-2006, 16:05
You don't think Slaan are considered Monsters? Have you actually read about monsters in the BRB? Because if you look very closely at the top of page 59, there's a big picture showing how monsters move, using a Slaan as an example. Also a Slaan has a 50mm base, over three wounds, and US higher than three.
Pretty monstrous.
Yet you think they aren't monsters and salamanders that are:
a) on a 40mm Base,
b) have 3 wounds,
c) are Ogre sized,
ARE monsters?

Slaan=Monster
Salamander=Not a Monster. Rat ogres have 'handlers' as such, and are on the smae sized base as salamanders with the same number of wounds. Do you think Rat Ogres are monsters too? Salamanders are ogre-sized infantry, who skirmish.

Actually putting in a monsters special rules that they are a monster would indeed be a good idea.

Greater Deamons and Daemon Princes are monsters.

Fredrik
18-11-2006, 19:43
We can also see a pattern in the fact that it seems that monsters are alone while "ogresized" can be more then one in te same unit from start. Just an observation.

ZomboCom
18-11-2006, 22:08
You don't think Slaan are considered Monsters? Have you actually read about monsters in the BRB? Because if you look very closely at the top of page 59, there's a big picture showing how monsters move, using a Slaan as an example. Also a Slaan has a 50mm base, over three wounds, and US higher than three.
Pretty monstrous.
Yet you think they aren't monsters and salamanders that are:
a) on a 40mm Base,
b) have 3 wounds,
c) are Ogre sized,
ARE monsters?

Slaan=Monster
Salamander=Not a Monster. Rat ogres have 'handlers' as such, and are on the smae sized base as salamanders with the same number of wounds. Do you think Rat Ogres are monsters too? Salamanders are ogre-sized infantry, who skirmish.

Actually putting in a monsters special rules that they are a monster would indeed be a good idea.

Greater Deamons and Daemon Princes are monsters.

Agreed.

A slann is a monster and a character, just like a greater deamon or a demon prince.

The have more than 3 wounds and are on a 50mm base.

Salamanders are ogre class infantry who skirmish, because they have 3 wounds and are on a 40mm base.

Just because they take a test when the handlers die doesn't make them monsters, especially since they don't actually take a monster reaction test (salamanders take a normal leadership test, i.e. they can use the general's leadership if nearby, unlike a monster reaction test which must be taken on the monster's own leadership).

Salamanders are not monsters, which is why the monster and handler rules do not apply to them. They are simply skirmishers.

NakedFisherman
18-11-2006, 22:53
Salamanders are ogre class infantry who skirmish, because they have 3 wounds and are on a 40mm base.

So is a Pegasus.

ZomboCom
19-11-2006, 01:11
So is a Pegasus.

A pegasus is a monstrous mount. That makes it a monster.

Unless you mean pegasus knights, which are not monsters but flying cavalry.

Mezziah
19-11-2006, 23:09
Strange stuff to make a BT hit you on 6+ for only 5pts, but anyway;
Is an exalted daemon considered a monster then? Just need to know what I can use to kill this damn Black orc general :8

Atrahasis
20-11-2006, 03:47
Salamanders are ogre class infantry who skirmish, because they have 3 wounds and are on a 40mm base.

As NF has pointed out, there are a lot of things that are US3 on 40mm bases that aren't infantry.

If the reasoning doesn't work all the time, it must be flawed.

Salamanders are monsters with handlers. The rules for Monsters with Handlers are in the Skirmishers section of the rulebook.

ZomboCom
20-11-2006, 14:53
As NF has pointed out, there are a lot of things that are US3 on 40mm bases that aren't infantry.

If the reasoning doesn't work all the time, it must be flawed.

Salamanders are monsters with handlers. The rules for Monsters with Handlers are in the Skirmishers section of the rulebook.

But as has been pointed out, the monster and handler rules make no sense for Salamanders. Which salamander do you use for line of sight?

In late 6th edition FAQs, salamanders were specifically removed from the section on monsters and handlers, for that exact reason. They make no sense under those rules.

Add that to the fact that they aren't monsters at all and there is only one solution.

Wings of Doom
20-11-2006, 18:56
As NF has pointed out, there are a lot of things that are US3 on 40mm bases that aren't infantry.

Naked Fisherman pointed out one thing (two including dark pegasus), that when purchased have US4 (due tot he rider) and are mounts.


If the reasoning doesn't work all the time, it must be flawed.

The reasoning doesn't work all the time for salamanders, hence this debate, and so saying 'if the reasoning doesn't work all the time, it must be flawed' is of no great use when the reasoning doesn't work either way.

If I'm being really pedantic, I'd point out that the 'Monsters and Handlers' section of the BRB always refers to the monster in singular, when you can have more than one salamander in a pack.