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Feor
16-11-2006, 16:20
Here's my first army planned out to 2000 points. Not 100% sure on tactics (so feel free to speak up) but I'm looking at a column formation Gnoblar Speedbump unit in the front, with the Ironguts following them closely, Then the Bulls 3 or 4 inches behind them, Hunter (with ad hoc trapper unit) and Leadbelcher on the outside flanks giving fire support as needed. Scraplauncher stays in the backfield and my imported wizard rides around as needed with Lore of Shadow, Death, or Beasts, as appropriate. (and Beasts only because my friend plays Bretonnia, so if I get "the Beast Cowers" his knights grind to a halt, I also find it funy to cast Bear's Anger on a Gnoblar Groinbiter :evilgrin:)

Please note when suggesting unit changes, I'm working from the Ogre Battalion, though I so far only have the battallion & the Scraplauncher, so things that appear in the battalion aren't so much changeable.

Anyways, onto the list!

Lords & Heros:
Bruiser w/ 2 sword Gnoblars, Siegebreaker, Wyrdstone Necklace, Heavy Armour

Hunter w/ 2 Sabertusks, Greatskull, Gnoblar Theifstone

Bruiser w/ Dragonhide Banner

Core Troops:
Bulls (x6) w/ full command, Iron Fists, Light Armour

Ironguts (x6) w/ Full Command

Gnoblars (x40) w/ Groinbiter

Gnoblar Trappers (x8) w/ Snarefinger

Special Units:
Leadbelchers (x4) w/ Thunderfist & Bellower

Gnoblar Scarplauncher

Rare Units:
Dogs of War Wizard Lord, Level 4 w/ Barded Warhorse

Thargrund
16-11-2006, 16:54
hi,

Ok heres the thing, that tactic is doomed ot fail! if you have a colomn then you are just asking for flank charges galore. you dont need a unit of 40 gnoblars that imo is just poitless you dont need a speed bump becuase thats also a speedbump for you, it will mean you will have to wait longer to get onto combat. Also if you going to line up you runits then your opponent can just pick them apart one unit at a time and you will be able to do diddly sqat - you wont be able to counter charge because it will take too long getting out of formation! ok so here is what you have to do: DO NOT USE THAT TACTIC!

The list is not too bad, but its not too good either. you need MSU - multiple/more small units - split your bulls into units of 3 so all of your eggs arent in the same basket so to speak. You need dispell scrolls to stop incomimg evil spells - (for you pit of shades is nasty). If you also want to put your bruisers into the ironguts unit then you only really need 4 because 8 is too much.

So what you need to do is go back have a major overhaul of tactics and then go and rewrite the list with more smaller units and no 40 man gnoblar units :)

sorry if i was a little harsh on you :angel:

druchii
16-11-2006, 17:20
hi,

Ok heres the thing, that tactic is doomed ot fail! if you have a colomn then you are just asking for flank charges galore. you dont need a unit of 40 gnoblars that imo is just poitless you dont need a speed bump becuase thats also a speedbump for you, it will mean you will have to wait longer to get onto combat. Also if you going to line up you runits then your opponent can just pick them apart one unit at a time and you will be able to do diddly sqat - you wont be able to counter charge because it will take too long getting out of formation! ok so here is what you have to do: DO NOT USE THAT TACTIC!

The list is not too bad, but its not too good either. you need MSU - multiple/more small units - split your bulls into units of 3 so all of your eggs arent in the same basket so to speak. You need dispell scrolls to stop incomimg evil spells - (for you pit of shades is nasty). If you also want to put your bruisers into the ironguts unit then you only really need 4 because 8 is too much.

So what you need to do is go back have a major overhaul of tactics and then go and rewrite the list with more smaller units and no 40 man gnoblar units :)

sorry if i was a little harsh on you :angel:


Here's what me rally means:

Split your gnoblar units into two units of 20. Gnoblars are there to elicit charges, not to really do anything else.

Split ALL your ogre units in half.

Now you've got two units of bulls, ironguts, leadbelchers and gnoblars.

Alot more to work with. Have you compared the points/model of an Ogre Bull with LA+ironfist to an irongut? You'll be pretty surprised when you do (either take the ironfist only, or nothing at all).

You definately want to ditch your unit champions. That's alot of points you're paying for just a single extra A.

You also definately want to mince the points to upgrade your bruiser to a tyrant. Tyrants are many times their cost better than bruisers.

I'd also completely ditch the DoW wizard lord. Bruisers are hands-down better mages than humans, learn to love your gastromancy.

d

Arhalien
16-11-2006, 17:24
Here's what me rally means:

Split your gnoblar units into two units of 20. Gnoblars are there to elicit charges, not to really do anything else.


d

I'm starting to think of gnoblars more as triggers. I haven;t played ogres yet, but given gnoblars' low leadership I would expect them to fail panic tests regularly (flames of the phoenix here I come). When they flee I will then hope that they maybe panic one of your ogre units. In your planned formation the chances of this are great, as your gnoblars should run through at least one unit. I agree with Thargrun on the subject of pit of shades - really looking forward to using that one against anything low initiative (saurus with I1, hehehe:evilgrin: )

Thargrund
16-11-2006, 17:35
hi,

Deary me my good friend Arhalien, i am 93.87% sure that Gnoblars do not cause panic to ogres because they are too unimportant so pay no attention to this heretical elven plot.

Also i forgot about the wizard lord last time - get rid of him and get a scroll caddy butcher and trade in the bruiser for a tyrant or even a slaugthermaster if your keen on gut magic.

Arhalien
16-11-2006, 17:37
hi,

Deary me my good friend Arhalien, i am 93.87% sure that Gnoblars do not cause panic to ogres because they are too unimportant so pay no attention to this heretical elven plot.

Also i forgot about the wizard lord last time - get rid of him and get a scroll caddy butcher and trade in the bruiser for a tyrant or even a slaugthermaster if your keen on gut magic.

Curse, bang goes that strategy. Mental note, try and find out all the armies rules before coming up with a strategy to beat them.

Thargrund
16-11-2006, 17:54
Yes foolish elf! anyway if you are reading this Feor could you please post up a revised list here so that we can see what you've decided to change, so that we can give you more advice :),

oh the satisfaction of helping new fantasy players, (by ripping their list to shreds and making them a new one :p)

Feor
17-11-2006, 05:07
Hmm, I'll have to put some thought into it, but I will post a revised list up.

The Gnoblars mostly got so big because at 2pts each they make for good filler to actually get the army up to 2000 points, not that i don't like the idea of an army with a cheapo general, minimum sized units of Bulls and hordes of Gnoblars to swarm the enemy with, but I'm strange like that. :D Also, I only have the 24 Gnoblars that came with the Battalion currently, which is actually 23, because a box of 24 Gnoblars comes with 2 groinbiters.

For the DoW wizard, I have nothing against Gut Magic, but the way I roll I'd want something a little more flexble. (my last game of 40K I lost three Terminators to a Tau with a Pulse Pistol in 2 rounds of shooting :cries:) With the wizard, I can get spells like "Unit causes fear, or, if it already does, it causes Terror". Is this really not worth it?

For the same reasons above I don't want a unit that can be forced to flee given a couple of high strength blows. Ogres are tough, but not that tough.

hmm...

druchii
17-11-2006, 05:44
Curse, bang goes that strategy. Mental note, try and find out all the armies rules before coming up with a strategy to beat them.


I'm starting to think of gnoblars more as triggers. I haven;t played ogres yet, but given gnoblars' low leadership I would expect them to fail panic tests regularly (flames of the phoenix here I come). When they flee I will then hope that they maybe panic one of your ogre units. In your planned formation the chances of this are great, as your gnoblars should run through at least one unit. I agree with Thargrun on the subject of pit of shades - really looking forward to using that one against anything low initiative (saurus with I1, hehehe:evilgrin: )

Someone else already beat me to the punch. Gnoblars don't even cause panic in other gnoblars!

So suddenly my planned formation is perfectly sound. Not only that, but with Ld 9(being near the general) I'd assume they're fine. Not only that, but usually the gnoblars are off-set with the rest of the ogre lineup, slightly tilted(with fronts facing the charger, to tempt them into a broken charge).

Fortunately you can run ogres pretty magic sufficient. I usually run three butchers, so with five dispel dice and atleast two scrolls (three usually) I can weather most of the storm.

d

Feor
17-11-2006, 06:23
Well, still heavily a WIP, but this might be a little better.

Lords:
Tyrant w/ Bull Gut, Tenderiser, Daemon-Killer Scars

Hunter w/ 2 sabertusks and Greatskull

Butcher w/ Halfling Cookbook & dispel scroll

Core Troops:
6 bulls w/ iron fists, bellower, and standard bearer

6 bulls w/ iron fists, bellower, and standard bearer

6 Ironguts w/ bellower and standard bearer

20 Gnoblars w/ Groinbiter

Special Units:

4 Leadbelchers

Scraplauncher

FuriosoShadow
17-11-2006, 16:21
Again, split the Bulls, Ironguts, and Leadbelchers up =P More versatility, especially because Ogres can't get rank bonuses anyway (I believe; someone want to correct me on this?).

Consider dropping the scraplauncher and/or a leadbelcher or two and trying to fit a 2nd Butcher in, since at 2000 points you'll probably be seeing a fair amount of magic.

Thargrund
17-11-2006, 16:35
Ok that is a lot better than before but if you only do one thing i would at least split 1 of the units of 6 into 2 units of 3, personaly id would just have 4 units of 3 then you have alotg of flexibility of them, you caould use them to tie other units up while you hit the bigger units with your big unit of irongut doom, without the risk of some unit flank charging you.

Well at least you have made a VAST improvements to the list - just dont use the colomn tactic and you will be fine :D

Feor
17-11-2006, 17:53
Ogres get regular rank bonuses if you're crazy enough to pay for unit with a frontage of 5. They also get a limited bonus of +1 strength when charging for every Ogre directly behind them.

I could maybe go for 3 units of 4, that might be acceptable.

druchii
18-11-2006, 03:20
Well, still heavily a WIP, but this might be a little better.

Lords:
Tyrant w/ Bull Gut, Tenderiser, Daemon-Killer Scars

Hunter w/ 2 sabertusks and Greatskull

Butcher w/ Halfling Cookbook & dispel scroll

Core Troops:
6 bulls w/ iron fists, bellower, and standard bearer

6 bulls w/ iron fists, bellower, and standard bearer

6 Ironguts w/ bellower and standard bearer

20 Gnoblars w/ Groinbiter

Special Units:

4 Leadbelchers

Scraplauncher

As usual, people beat me to the punch.

Split your units, again.

Units of 6 are a complete waste. Why would you pay those extra points for models to just sit in the back rank and look ugly? Get those fatties into the fight!

If there is one thing I can emphasize, that is:
GET
YHETEES!

M7. -1 to hit. Move through terrain.

They're incredibly dangerous. You can park them in some woods, with just a tad bit of them within 2" of an edge, and charge out of a woods, or have a general threat range of 14" that your opponent will be smart to never cross.

Oh, on the butcher, consider either the skullmantle or the boomstick. Both help to augment your magic phase (while the cookbook is defensive). The skullmantle will make most basic troops test on either a 6 or 7, and can lead to some very easy VPS if you get the first turn. Also, the boomstick will help to pull out dispel dice, and it'll actually hurt something if it goes off.

d

EDIT:
Well at least you have made a VAST improvements to the list - just dont use the colomn tactic and you will be fine
The column tactic is VERY viable. You just have to be smart with it.
Take a look at your opponents units in relation to yours. Intentionally set it up so that your units will NOT run through eachother. You can still set up a self-supporting column without having units stacked ontop of eachother.

This tactic is still immensely viable if you use(abuse?) gnoblars heavily.

Feor
19-11-2006, 04:14
Well what I was thinking ot with the column was that if they come straight at you, they get stalled on the Gnoblars, while the leadbelchers and scraplauncher softens them up, then they run into the ironguts, and the bulls can swing around for support if needed. If they try to flank you (which I've been told is one of the Ogre's weaker spots) they run into the side of one of your units (after getting there through the leadbelchers & scraplauncher) and then the next unit in the column slams into their flank.

matticusmaximus
19-11-2006, 22:11
I think you should ditch the DoW wizard lord and grab some maneaters. Having been on the receiving end of Maneaters, I have decided that they are nasty.