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Apollyon
05-07-2005, 18:09
have a question and am looking for opinions on Necron and Nid autonomy. What would Necrons especially Necron Lords that are out of contact with the C'tan for a long time revert to? Could a Necron Lord develop his own agenda or take the whole serve the C'tan thing very liberally??? Also are Nids complete organisms if let's say a 2500 point balanced Nid army was stranded out of contact with a Hive Fleet/Norn Queen what would happen? Can individual Nids even eat or are they dependant on nutrient pools? Would a Carni eat the Gaunts if in fact could even eat food?

Lord-Warlock
05-07-2005, 18:17
On the Nids - I recall reading somewhere that they're not really built for digesting foods. Reverting to mindless vermin they'd eat, sure, but their bodies would likely not know what to do with the food and thus they would die within days. Their weapons would likely be consumed from within by hungry ammo, and thus they would suffer injury there too.

The Necron sentience debate has been reigning long and, IMHO, a Necron Lord going without C'Tan guidance for a longer period of time, and for some reason still being awake, would either:

1. Remain dormant if there was nothing to be harvested nearby.
2. Finish the harvest of everything on the planet/in the system if it had ships available, then go dormant.

The other Necrons would probably follow mindlessly. The Pariahs are an interesting problem, but as they seem to be mindless and self-sustaining I'd assume they go along with the Necrons.

Apollyon
05-07-2005, 19:23
Do you think Necron lords have any concept of "self" ? Could they retain any intrisic personality.




On the Nids - I recall reading somewhere that they're not really built for digesting foods. Reverting to mindless vermin they'd eat, sure, but their bodies would likely not know what to do with the food and thus they would die within days. Their weapons would likely be consumed from within by hungry ammo, and thus they would suffer injury there too.

The Necron sentience debate has been reigning long and, IMHO, a Necron Lord going without C'Tan guidance for a longer period of time, and for some reason still being awake, would either:

1. Remain dormant if there was nothing to be harvested nearby.
2. Finish the harvest of everything on the planet/in the system if it had ships available, then go dormant.

The other Necrons would probably follow mindlessly. The Pariahs are an interesting problem, but as they seem to be mindless and self-sustaining I'd assume they go along with the Necrons.

TheSonOfAbbadon
05-07-2005, 19:31
If the 'nids were stranded without contact with norn queens and hive fleets, but WITH nutrient pools, they would... eat everything they could, regurgitate them into the nutrient pools, and so on and so forth until they were all killed or they killed everything they could.

They couldn't replicate though, although with all that nutrients they would probably all grow very big and very strong.

Brusilov
05-07-2005, 20:48
Necrons utterly lack a personality, only Lords had shreds of them remaining. They have initiative but their emotions are pretty much limited to hatred towards the living, if even that. This is due to the processus that transfered their mind into machines. It did not perfectly work (or did not on purpose) and thus removed pretty much all shreds of personality from Necrontyr.
As to what this would mean in terms of autonomy, there is a short story about Necrons that demonstrates the Warriors have little to no initiative whatsoever without a Lord. They'll carry out their orders to the letter, but strictly and lack all imaginative or cognitive process.

On the matter of Nids, the lesser creatures, like Gaunts even up to Warriors would IMHO not have their own digestive system. IIRC they're fed directly by nutrient pools or somesuch. Higher creatures like Tyrants might have their own digestive system. And obviously Lictors and Stealers would be able to survive indefinitely on their own (but they're designed for that after all).

Psiweapon
05-07-2005, 20:50
I think Necron Lords would finish the orders they have and then... I dunno. Perhaps they lay down and get nap, or start a killing spree.

Apollyon
05-07-2005, 21:07
So are all Necron Lords interchangably genaric ? If they were activated but the put out of contact with the C'tan for prolonged periods what would happen go back to being dormant???



Necrons utterly lack a personality, only Lords had shreds of them remaining. They have initiative but their emotions are pretty much limited to hatred towards the living, if even that. This is due to the processus that transfered their mind into machines. It did not perfectly work (or did not on purpose) and thus removed pretty much all shreds of personality from Necrontyr.
As to what this would mean in terms of autonomy, there is a short story about Necrons that demonstrates the Warriors have little to no initiative whatsoever without a Lord. They'll carry out their orders to the letter, but strictly and lack all imaginative or cognitive process.

On the matter of Nids, the lesser creatures, like Gaunts even up to Warriors would IMHO not have their own digestive system. IIRC they're fed directly by nutrient pools or somesuch. Higher creatures like Tyrants might have their own digestive system. And obviously Lictors and Stealers would be able to survive indefinitely on their own (but they're designed for that after all).

Bmaxwell
05-07-2005, 21:09
depending on much the the necrontry that was able to stay with the necron lord really is what it depends on but for the most part i think it would just contuine to carry its orders out until they were complted.

I think the big creatures acuattly would need to have a digstive system of some kind for storeing uop enough engery for something that big for how long they are out seems to em that they would have. i.e. fex tryant and mabye the warroirs and gurads

Brusilov
05-07-2005, 21:10
Lords have shredds of personality, which could mean that they in fact are different from each other, although it could have to do with their sense of initiative.
As to what they would do if out of touch from C'tan for extended periods of time (which happens very often), they would probably continue to do as they were ordered.
It's in the execution of these orders that they may show autonomy and initiative.

Khaine's Messenger
05-07-2005, 21:33
On the matter of Nids, the lesser creatures, like Gaunts even up to Warriors would IMHO not have their own digestive system.

If they do, it's probably one of the "optional" bits. Some Gaunt genus specimens as well as other creatures have been observed adapting to local environments and insinuating themselves into the local foodchain if cut off from the hivemind long enough ("The Curiosity" has one such creature in the form of a Termagant, iirc), so it seems they do possess some degree of granted autonomy...perhaps in response to environmental pressures, like the infamous Jurassic Park quote about flipflopping reproductive systems.

As to Necrons out of contact with the C'tan...never. They are always in contact with the Star Gods, whose whims bypass time itself and which have been hardwired into Necron "culture." Individual Necrons, further, perhaps retain their memories of what they once were, but it is a trivial matter to divorce that catalogued and filed biological remnant from the matters at hand, and like the AdMech they would probably be, on the whole, a bunch of unimaginative, slowly-paced, and rather conservative dullards even if they did have much in the way of personal initiative. After all, sentience is the basest form of intellect. :evilgrin:

Eversor
05-07-2005, 22:24
:chrome: Indeed, Hormagaunts are known to lay eggs that can hatch generations later if an invasion fails. So yes, some, but not all, Tyranid organisms are able to eat. Your mileage may vary on exactly which ones can. Zoats for one certainly could ;)

Spectre
06-07-2005, 00:48
On the matter of Nids, the lesser creatures, like Gaunts even up to Warriors would IMHO not have their own digestive system. IIRC they're fed directly by nutrient pools or somesuch. Higher creatures like Tyrants might have their own digestive system. And obviously Lictors and Stealers would be able to survive indefinitely on their own (but they're designed for that after all).

I was under the impression that the larger and more combat oriented the creature, then the more reduced it's digestive system was - the rippers had the most complete digestive system, basically eating and processing everything they can before throwing themselves into enzyme vats and being rendered down into 'nid soup for the big guys...

While Gaunts, stealers and a few of the other vanguard species seem to be able to live independently of the rest of the fleets, the big guys don't – they either go into hibernation or mutate into some other feral form.
As far as a hive tyrant or Carni goes, they may be able to adapt to a more complete digestive system, but for the most part I thought they'd have as simple a system as possible - thus reducing the space taken up by digestive organs, freeing up space for armor, muscle and combat related organs, and reducing the chance that a single hit will strike a critical organ.

If you look at that older ‘know your foe’ chart with recommended targeting locations, the ‘sweet spots’ on the carni and tyrant seem to be the heads, necks and leg joints – while their may be a heart buried deep within the central body mass of both, it seems that the central body is just not a viable area to target – possibly indicating that there are few organs of ‘critical importance’ in the thorax.

Apollyon
06-07-2005, 14:37
Would it be in the "programing" of a Necron Lord to foster human population growth only to be harvested at a later date?

Do Necrons "harvest" Nids?

Karhedron
06-07-2005, 14:59
Do Necrons "harvest" Nids?
Unlikely. Necrons harvest for two reasons. Firstly they are searching for those with the Pariah gene to process. Secondly they are looking for "cattle" to feed to the C'tan.

I doubt that Nids have any Pariah genes in them, they are extra-galactic and so would never have been affected by either the C'tan or the Old Ones during the War in Heaven. Furthermore, anti-psykers would disrupt the functioning of the Hive Mind so anything with genes that acted to damp down psychic activity would probably be rejected as unsuitable by the Norn queens.

As to feeding to the C'tan, I suspect probably not. Captured humans can be cowed or intimidated into submission. Nids would probably keep fighting to the bitter end and thus would be too much trouble to harvest.

Aaric
06-07-2005, 21:01
Read The "Legends of Dune" trilogy by Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson. It is about the Butlerian Jihad (war against the machines). There is an interseting subplot about robots with personalities that I think would apply here.

Spoilers
The robot Erasmus (comparable to a Necron Lord) develpoed a personalitity as a result of being out of touch with Omnius (the robot overmind) for a few years. His personality developed as a result of curiousity about human nature, and he eventually took a human "son" and loved him. Erasmus had self-preservation instincts and lied to Omnius to prevent himself from being mind-wiped. Another robot, Seurat, developed a personality as a result of being with a human for extended periods of time. He "evolved" it to better help him understand the human.
Spoilers

I don't know how to do spoilers properly, so I imporvised.