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mark.
18-11-2006, 12:03
Hi, Im going to play a mordheim competition soon and want to make sure my list doesnt suck.

I have heard more heroes=more money and I want to advance fast after a battle so have taken heroes, also some henchmen with (shortrange) firing power,

this is the list:

HERO'S:
1 assasin adept
add dagger + sling = 64gc
2 black skaven
add dagger + sling = 88gc
2 night runner
mace + sling = 50gc
1 eshin sorcerer
mace = 48gc

HENCHMEN
5 verminkin
club + sling = 125gc
5 verminkin
club + sling = 125gc

Exactly 500 gc, so is this list gonna survive? Maybe a rat ogre is in place?
Is the sorcerer worth it? Are slings good range weapons or throwing knives?
Should I go for fighting claws as theyre easier to get, or are numbers better?

I dont like the giant rats, they are 10 gc cheaper then verminkin but:
- WS2, low chance of hitting
- cannot use a sling
- cannot gain experience
- since he cannot use weapons, he only has got 1 attack
- cannot climb buildigs

Please give me some info, thanks in the advance!

TKitch
18-11-2006, 15:31
(One note: The sorcerer can't take a club.)

congratulations: you found one of the cheeseiest starting combos in mordheim. This is an entirely too powerful warband to have in the city, and has few drawbacks, if any.

That's the truth.


So, no, you shouldn't have any trouble with it. And if your opponent causes fear? Sling him to death from 18" away.

mark.
18-11-2006, 16:12
Yes the mass amount of warband members make a strong band, but the eladership is low and can never be improved beyond 7 (altough this is sometimes a good thing, skaven are smart and know when they just cant win so prevent casualties)

But this is bad against fear and short range make me vurnerable to long-range hitter such as reikland or shadow warrior (altough movement cancels this a bit) rat ogre doesnt seem to have great attack power for its points and can never improve, but toughness 5 is great against archers, co criticals altough large target is pretty bad, but you can use it to soak up archer hits.

At short range it is good, because I can provoke my enemies with many sling shots and my 16 rats are double armed and have about 30 attacks.

it does have alot members so I wont get money so fast, luckily my henchmen are cheap so this isnt so bad.

Maybe some shooting band is better (reikland) but they have their own downsides too...

Anyway thanks for the info, but how can I improve my list to not suffer so much from the bad points (maybe at the expense of my great warband size)

Im not much a tactician so my weak points will surely be exploited...

TKitch
18-11-2006, 18:29
you aren't following.

Skaven are seriously the most broken warband in Mordheim.

Fear isn't an issue when you don't have to charge. The only time this actually becomes an issue is with Zombie Heavy Undead. That's it. Even then it's not so bad.

Most warbands have 1-3 fear causing models. At most. You can either avoid them, or shoot them. It's not hard to do.

You've also got the most powerful thing in mordheim: Control of the Movement phase. Skaven REALLY do.

You're stocked with M5+ I4+ models, you can run 10-12" a turn. Facing Reikies with crossbows? So? Hide behind a building. you can't get shot if you can't be seen.

Skaven aren't weak.

Oh, Even with LD7, you still charge fear causers. Just try with more models. you DO have them to spare.

mark.
18-11-2006, 19:24
Yes youre right skaven are actualy pretty strong.

Very strange that the skaven henchmen are cheaper then mercenary henchmen, while skaven have better stats.

Also the heroes are stronger, but leadership is maybe the compensation.

Maybe the makers of the game overrated leadership, but when you are stronger and have more numbers, you dont have to rout anyway and even if you do its no disaster, youll only keep your surviving heroes safe.

Skaven are cool because you can use nasty tactics.

But zombie undead they are slow aren't they? SHouldnt I always be able to outrun them and use slings against them?

Because I can manouvre around them they have to use defensive tactic, but I can do alot of ranged damage so that isnt an option either for them...

A charging vampire is nasty against me, but if I manage to catch it alone because of my speed it is still a win:win situation right?

But there are also warbands who are strong against me, with orcs and goblins you can field alot of T4 models and still nice shooting power, until skaven get really close boyz and heroes can shoot you and if you come very close they charge and with cheap T4 models they will actually stand a big chance in close combat.

What to do against them? Any ideas?

Dwarves the same, but they are fewer so my close combat chances are higher.

Quin 242
18-11-2006, 20:15
As stated, Skaven are point for point the most broken list out there. They get high stats and the leader gets a special skill for the same cost as any other watrband's leader.

the high M and I make the movement phase into the "i can't be shot" phase.. They can walk the same speed as dwafs can run and still go into hiding and they can climb most buildings with ease.

one thing that TKitch failed to mention is that in Mordheim # of attacks are HIGHLY important... and skaven have 3 ways to add to thier total while all other warbands only have one. Art of silent death w/ claws and Tail fighting are SKILLS. I.e. easily gained... actually rolling a 6 on the skills table AND THEN rolling a 4-6 after that is statistically slim chances but that's all that other warbands get.
so... Skaven heroes have 4 or 5 attacks to the other warband heroes' 2 or 3.. that makes a GIANT difference with a M5-6 and an I4-6 where he gets the charge.

your cheesy (and for ratmen what better way to be?) list should do wonderfully. I would only recommend getting the heroes an additional dagger or hand weapon each.

mark.
18-11-2006, 21:24
Yes I know, art of silent death is great, even if I need to drop my daggers and fight unarmed Ill take this before tail fight 5,6 crit sounds great and can buy steel claws later for supreme pawnage.

Tail fight for even another attack, and maybe strike to injure (+1 injury) is also good, not only does it increase chance of making someone OOA greatly, but with the large number of attacks any stunning attack will be followed by a finishing move (or with multiple attacks from one character is it just roll 2 times on injury table and apply highest if one attack stuns)

so this will make following:

HERO'S:
1 assasin adept
add dagger + sling = 64gc
2 black skaven
add dagger + sling = 88gc
2 night runner
mace + sling = 50gc
1 eshin sorcerer
add dagger = 47gc

HENCHMEN
5 verminkin
club + sling = 125gc
5 verminkin
club + sling = 125gc

But I have some questions, when your hero gets an xp advance and gets to choose a skill, is it random or you choose yourself?

And spells from my sorcerer, how do I get more (first time I get 1 spell random with D6 right?

And Im also curious about hiding, I hear it alot but how does it exactly works?

Dark Apostle197
18-11-2006, 21:55
But I have some questions, when your hero gets an xp advance and gets to choose a skill, is it random or you choose yourself?

And spells from my sorcerer, how do I get more (first time I get 1 spell random with D6 right?

And Im also curious about hiding, I hear it alot but how does it exactly works?

You get to choose the skill you get.

You are right about getting the spell at first. In order to get another you need to get some item I think, not exactly sure, most magic enhancing stuff my witch hunters can't get so I ignore it :)

Hiding is when you are by a wall, you can say you are hiding. You cannot shoot or cast magic(except if you have a blow pipe[I think] or are a cheezy shadow warrior hero). Also, I believe you cannot run to the area you want to run in. You can still be seen if you are within the inititative of someone. So if you are within 4 inches of an I4 you can be seen, or something like that. I am sure Tkitch and the others can give you a better discription. But it is in the rulebook. If I am wrong about anything... Sorry, hiding is for panzies :P

mark.
19-11-2006, 11:14
Ah I see, so you can't just hide in open sight, even if youre miles away, but can you hide, emerge from your cover, shoot your blowpipe and return to your cover and hide again? (behind a corner of a building or so)

Dark Apostle197
19-11-2006, 17:21
With a blow pipe, it has a "stealthy" rule that allows it to shoot when hiding. Shadow warriors have a skill. Shadow warriors can also hide in open site if the shadow weaver has the spell to allow it. You can stay in cover and shoot, you just won't be hiding. So lets say you have a guy with a move-or-shoot weapon and you want him to move. You can move him to the cover you want. hide him, then in your next turn, you can shoot by saying he is not hidden anymore.

mark.
19-11-2006, 17:54
Ok, and with the sniper skill (remain hidden) can you shot and move back hidden? behin the pillar or corner for example?

Dark Apostle197
19-11-2006, 18:14
With sniper, you do not need to move. You hide behind a place you can hide, but still see. Say you are hiding, and shoot away. No one can shoot and move back to be hidden as shooting is a different phase than movement, once you shoot, movement is over.

mark.
19-11-2006, 19:12
Oh lol forgot that,

but in that case elves can be ubergood, however I like skaven much more somehow..

Jasonite
05-12-2006, 17:56
Man, this scares me. It's acknowledged that Skaven are pretty darn near unbalanced (near, not saying they're there) and yet other warbands that are not as good as Skaven get the evil eye.

I certainly hope that something will be done about them... saying that Skaven deserve a cheesy warband is just not the answer.

The skaven warbands have dominated at our local GW store because they can get a RIDICULOUS number of models out on the table... and then sling everyone to death. It's sad, really.

And because the critical hit chart (the regular one) is so generic, it makes slings so much more powerful.

*sigh*
J

Dark Apostle197
05-12-2006, 22:46
Yeah, at our club, the highest warband rating is skaven(luckily he is a nice guy, he doesn't just own the lower wrbands, he plays them so they can advance)... And his deamon weapon, bow of whatever(elfy one) and sowrd of light or something doesn't help!

Jasonite
06-12-2006, 01:43
I'd rather not have to make a house rule about Skaven... but I feel like I may need to if this keeps up... it's non-interactive, and just no fun. :(

At the same time, I don't want to tell a Skaven player they can't play that warband... they are thematic and fun... and just in need of a bit of tempering.

TKitch
06-12-2006, 02:52
easy nerfs to make skaven not be horribly broken:

1) Start with only 5 heroes. The sorcer becomes "Taken instead of a Black Skaven". 3 good heroes, and 2 youngbloods, as per mercs.

2) Vermkin to 25GC and make them 0-8

Then you're roughly ok.

This prevents stupid slingy of doom army, yet lets skaven keep the limit of 20 and such. It also doesn't require a huge rewrite, jsut a couple tweaks.

Jasonite
06-12-2006, 03:35
Thank you! You're as helpful here as you are on the Specialist site ;-)

These are fantastic... they maintain the intent and flavor of the army without taking them too far away.

Cheers,
J

TKitch
06-12-2006, 04:13
y'know I do stick around the Mordheim forums for a reason ;)

(Occasionally I know what I'm talking about! :p)

(Mind you, that IS only occasionally!)

Dark Apostle197
06-12-2006, 04:16
Yeah it was his time of the month... You know.. To give good info :P

TKitch
06-12-2006, 04:24
so THAT"S why I feel funny the first week of every month....

Dark Apostle197
06-12-2006, 04:27
Your "needed" senses begin to tingle and you log on warseer then check out the forums right? :)

TKitch
06-12-2006, 04:40
ummmm, something like that. *crosses legs*

Dark Apostle197
06-12-2006, 04:42
Lol ok this is getting a little off topic. But because I got one more off topic post, check out the Averlander list I put up and tell me what you think :)

TKitch
06-12-2006, 05:08
punk :p

ya gots ya ansaw. And Skaven are fun to play as.

My favorite starting skaven warband has 6 (maybe 7) models.

Adept w weeping blades, sling, warplock pistol
sorcerer w fighting claws
black w fighting claws
black with weeping blades, sling
2x runners with sword, sling, club

comes awfully close to 500GC. and it's fun. maybe add 1 vermkin, to help with routes. (And pray for children of the horned rat spell!)

Dark Apostle197
06-12-2006, 05:33
Wow! That is small! lol

mark.
08-12-2006, 12:26
Hey, I havent checked the forums for a while.

Dont think Ill be owning or cheesing, Im not so good so itll be in control, and the enemies also have powerful warbands, such as orcs (tough and numerous),shadow warriors (shooty), dwarves (hard to kill) and maybe also some undead or mercenaries warband so there'll be plenty of challenges.

Ill also post the outcome of the battles here, so stay tuned !

TKitch
08-12-2006, 15:29
Shadow Warriors aren't a challenge for skaven.

Starting out you're going to outnumber them 2-1, and you move as fast, if not faster than they do. Also, since none cause fear, attacking 3-1 would be very easy and win you the game in a hurry. (You could charge 4 or 5 guys in a turn with 3 each, leading to effectively 3 or 4 guaranteed kills. As a SW player, I'd then leave in a hurry.)

Dwarfs: Their hard to kill rule mainly is for use against shooting. Once in HtH, you can still the the auto OOA rules to your benefit. Early on Dwarfs aren't that shooty, too, since a shooter for them will run 60-70GC. Use this to your benefit. They're also horribly slow, charge them 4 on 1, since they're as small or smaller than a SW warband. They're harder to drop initially, but once they fall, you can fairly easily take them out entirely.

Orcs - Actually easier than dwarfs. Especially if he's got gobbos. Gobbos = sling bait. They don't count much towards routing, but they still do. Orcs have animosity to deal with, so let them get slwoed down by it and pick your fights that way.

Undead may be tough, especially zombie heavy, but then juust sling a lot, to off the zombies. If you want to try charging the vampie? Go in with NO LESS THAN 6 skaven at once. you need to pass 4+ in order to do well against that brute.

Mercs? you;d have to try to lose.

gorgon
08-12-2006, 19:19
I don't think Skaven are broken, primarily due to their low Ld. Some scenarios are going to be won or lost on rout tests. That never changes, and other than an Unholy Relic, there's not a lot you can do about it.

I think Skaven are scariest in one-off games and at the beginning of campaigns. But later in campaigns other warbands peak and get quite nasty too. Pumped-up Shadow Warriors are definitely one of them.

Frankly, I'm not sure what else you spend your gold on if not more bodies. There's always the Rat Ogre, but big guys are generally a bad investment (the Orc's Troll might be the exception). And I guess there's warplock pistols, but pistols kinda stink and they're expensive considering they might blow up.

And honestly, it's a wargame, not a roleplaying game. Mark, I say use your original list and have fun. Forget all the cries of cheese...everyone else will be trying to win too.

TKitch
08-12-2006, 21:18
... wow. That's so far against what most people say it's not funny.

Skaven do start tougher than other warbands. The problem with that is, unless you really hurt them VERY early, they stay ahead of the other warbands. I know a number of veteran players who will team up 2 against skaven relatively early in the campaign to knock skaven back down. And then it's balanced, but only because they do MASSIVE damage to the warband in a fight.

As for big guys - out the door they're a poor investment, yes. But once you're built up? They're da bomb. A Rat Ogre uses up no more warband space than a vermkin, yet they're infinately better. (And FYI: Trolls aren't that great. They're T4, the Rat Ogre is T5 making it immune to S3 crits like bowfire.)

Jasonite
08-12-2006, 23:42
Of course... it's not about what people say as much as what you experience first hand... and I think most of us have been on the receiving end of a Skaven beatdown... sure, they may fail a rout test here or there.... but I've been slapped around by a Skaven player mid-way through a campaign who didn't take a single sling (because he didn't want to hear the cries of cheese) and he STILL had twice as many figures on the field as me. It was ridiculous... after 6 games his rating was nearly 300. And that's after I killed (dead) his leader.

*shudder*

mark.
09-12-2006, 18:31
I dont want to have a to good warband so I changed some things, I made my assasin carry thowing stars, one black skaven with a fighting claws, I dropped the hero slings (except for the runners) this cost me 2 verminkin, so I now have 8 verminkin.

These weapons are also better later on, so make it more balanced, and less good early on.

Im not so sure if skaven is bad later on, because there is so many statistics good for a skaven to improve, but they do start near their max amount of warband models so there is hardly any room for expansion, while other warbands can double their numbers.

Also I think a rat ogre is a bad choice, it doesnt fit in the nature of skaven, numerous and cheap and also gamewise bad, because I think skaven has got alot of offensive power and rat ogre doesnt synergy with it, bad attack but good defence.

But maybe as tkitch says, if you are at your number limit anyway and are rich, just buy a rat ogre and it will be pretty good for the larger warband, but even though they have got T5, their bad at sucking up missile fire, because their wounds are much more "worth" then 3 verminkin wounds, besides multiple wounds are not good against missile anyway, because missiles cant take OOA automatically but wound as good as a melee attack.

SO Im not so sure when a rat ogre is good, in combat they have relative low offensive power and wont be targeted against, it is only for the fear?

Trolls are not good either I think, it costs 25 gold after a battle and that is an extra man each battle, also as mentioned before it leaves you with a small weak warband.

But I dont have expierence so dont take this to serious, but only I think this about it.

Dark Apostle197
09-12-2006, 19:02
Like said earlier, the skaven started out on top, and is still on top of our league. Him getting three magical items did not help either. Neither did the fact that we played huge mega battles for lots of XP(usually because of the skaven) and the skaven always had a vampire warband ally, and sometimes mercs.

gorgon
11-12-2006, 14:29
... wow. That's so far against what most people say it's not funny.

That doesn't surprise me, but I don't think that makes me wrong. Frankly, many players seem to play MH as a semi-RPG or a multiplayer game. That's fine and their perogative, but our group has a lot of veteran wargamers and we play predominantly 1-on-1 games with a competitive mindset.

I can't tell you how many times I've seen people say they can't beat things like (for instance) Possessed warbands that consist of a tooled-up Possessed and about 5-6 other models. When I see that, I just shrug, because we'd absolutely punk things like that in our group. Things that work in one environment don't necessarily work in another, and MH has a lot more disparity in terms of style, house rules, etc. than 40K or WFB.

So I'm standing by my points that in a more competitive environment, Skaven tend to plateau somewhat as other warbands catch up. Compared to Skaven, other warbands get much harder to rout, and their shooting gets longer-ranged and deadlier. That's not to say Skaven don't advance in other ways, just that some of their advantages early in a campaign are much less so later on.


Skaven do start tougher than other warbands. The problem with that is, unless you really hurt them VERY early, they stay ahead of the other warbands. I know a number of veteran players who will team up 2 against skaven relatively early in the campaign to knock skaven back down. And then it's balanced, but only because they do MASSIVE damage to the warband in a fight.

Again, like so many things with MH, I think that depends on your group and the way they play and structure their campaigns. If you award a champ based on warband rating, that's a concern. If you tend to end with some kind of tournament, either round-robin or single elimination, it only takes a bad game for the lead warband to slip up. And again, I really can't imagine any warband being so far out in front that they're unbeatable. That's much of the beauty of MH...some crits at the right time and the wrong scenario can really help out an underdog.


As for big guys - out the door they're a poor investment, yes. But once you're built up? They're da bomb. A Rat Ogre uses up no more warband space than a vermkin, yet they're infinately better. (And FYI: Trolls aren't that great. They're T4, the Rat Ogre is T5 making it immune to S3 crits like bowfire.)

In my experience, once you're built up enough to afford them, other warbands are tooled up enough that they can deal with them. A few quick-shooting xbows or longbows with hunting arrows can make surprisingly short work of them, and h2h warbands often have a hero or two that are already nastier than the big guy. And being that they're big guys, they almost always attract too much attention. I see your point on the Rat Ogre, but personally I wouldn't buy a RO for a Skaven warband unless I was already maxed out and had more gcs than I knew what to do with. I think one of the Skaven's strengths is that they don't have a lot of enticing targets...just a ton of little rats with slings everywhere.

The advantage I see in Trolls is that they don't die when they inevitably go OOA. So they're not bad as an arrow-catcher. I'd never buy one early on, but if I'd maxed out I'd consider it. I just don't like 200+ gc investments that die 33% of the time on OOAs. In your example, the Rat Ogre is much better than the Verminkin, but it's also less efficient with gcs, as Mark correctly pointed out. Even when experienced henchmen die, they can be "bought back" for some extra gcs if you really want (presuming there's still a henchmen left in the group).

Again, I think Skaven are the best of the rulebook bands, although I think Sisters gave them a run for their money pre-rules review. I just think the disparity isn't as great at people make it out to be. Personally, I think well-run Merc bands can be quite strong, and Sisters still have their strengths. WHs are unforgiving to play but their access to Shooting and Academic skills are real strengths. Undead aren't bad, but they're too reliant on the Vampire and likewise tend to plateau. Possessed...well, I'm not a fan. The Possessed hero rocks, but there are too many overpriced things in that list. Which is too bad, as they could be one of the coolest.

Just my opinion(s).

mark.
11-12-2006, 20:07
Change of the plans, instead of playing skaven, I'm going for possessed.

I wouldve borrowed the skaven, but after a recent buy I can now field my very own chaos warband.

The theme of the warband is evil black chaos, not in the city for money, but just for killing everyone!
The warband is made of chaos warriors.

Here is the list I made:

Magister, sword + mace + bow = 98gc
He wields a shining blade indicating him as the most important warrior of the band, also his deathstick (burning skull on stick) indicates him as powerful wizard.

The Possessed, hammer + hammer = 96gc
This madman wields 2 hammers and his style of attacks would come closest to bearhug.

The Possessed, spear + dagger = 100gc
This possessed wields a huge stick with blades (cool conversion) at each side, I could use this as a great weapon, but it is just too bad for a beginning warband, so Ill field it as a spear, later on when he advances attacks and get to pick the strongman skill, I might switch to the great weapon using the same massive weapon (would be about 5-6 metres long in real)

Mutant, scorpion tail, axe + mace + bow = 86gc
This warrior has got a posionous looking scorpion tail sticking out of his armor and will be rampaging through the battlefield.
The only thing bothers me about this is giving such an expensive upgrade to such a cheap warrior, but the cheapest mutation, demon soul, is crap and still 20gc so I had to buy the tail (it looks very cool too)

Brethern, hammer + mace = 31gc
Brethern, mace + mace + bow = 46gc
Brethern, axe + axe = 35gc
These guys are cool as well and I also managed to field one with a bow.

The models I'm going to field are chaos warrios, which doesnt fit the actual possessed theme, but since this is the closest Ill get to a pure chaos warband, the possessed seem fine, especially because it's mainly close combat and had mutations, but too bad some things like brethern and mutations and bows and stuff are slightly overpriced.

But some questions:

You'd think, no beastmen???, but that would ruin the theme, plus I havent got the models myself, but I think beastman are a pretty neat choice...maybe later.

I did drop a brether for the 3 bows, but without shooting this warband would be too bad I think, or aren't the bows worth it? Especially now I have to pay 5gc more for a bow... But still I have got some hell-black bows ready to get glued to their backs.

I also chose for brethern instead of darksouls because paying 10gc just to change a point of WS for a point of S is a bit overpriced, because else everyone would be able to hit my brethern on 3+ and now most people need 4+, a defensive offset for being able to wound 3+ instead of 4+ (normally), also I shouldnt buy darksouls because that means even less men :0, but please say it if I've made a wrong choice here.

Also, should I've bought things like blackblood or extra arm for my possessed instead of brethern?
Should I dump one possessed and buy one later on?
Should I get an extra mutant at the expense of brethern/something else?

Please say it if I've done something very wrong as I didnt found much information about the possessed, as gorgon said, theyre alot less good then skaven, possibly underpowered so I dont want to screw up and make best use of the warband choice.

TKitch
12-12-2006, 04:53
That doesn't surprise me, but I don't think that makes me wrong. Frankly, many players seem to play MH as a semi-RPG or a multiplayer game. That's fine and their perogative, but our group has a lot of veteran wargamers and we play predominantly 1-on-1 games with a competitive mindset.

I also play almost exclusively the same way.


I can't tell you how many times I've seen people say they can't beat things like (for instance) Possessed warbands that consist of a tooled-up Possessed and about 5-6 other models. When I see that, I just shrug, because we'd absolutely punk things like that in our group. Things that work in one environment don't necessarily work in another, and MH has a lot more disparity in terms of style, house rules, etc. than 40K or WFB.

Tooled up possessed model? 6 models max? Can I please fight it! That's an easy one to beat. Sacrifice a model to tie up the possessed for a turn or two, or even better? Stick him between the possessed and someone he WANTS to charge. Interceptor. Make him slow up, and if a cheap-o henchie bites it, that's life. Taking out some mutants and brethren will be easy.


So I'm standing by my points that in a more competitive environment, Skaven tend to plateau somewhat as other warbands catch up. Compared to Skaven, other warbands get much harder to rout, and their shooting gets longer-ranged and deadlier. That's not to say Skaven don't advance in other ways, just that some of their advantages early in a campaign are much less so later on.

My problem with skaven is that the 'plateau' is far enough in that a normal campaign (say 10 games) won't do it, at all. Long term, they do, but after 10 games, you're not there at all. After their first 3 advances, most skaven heroes in my warband have a minimum of 3 attacks, if not 4-5. 4 attacks: Fighting Claws + AoSD + Tail Fighting . And skills are almost as common as ALL the stat up combined, so getting 2 skills in 3 advances is pretty normal. No other warband can have a chance of matching that.

Combine that with their nasty ability to get the charge (5x M6 heroes) and you're going to lose models in a hurry. In my warband of 9 models on a charge I normally kill 4-6 models. Since only 1 of my models has less than 3 attacks. 2 have poisoned attacks, and I'm just mean. And they're only like 5 or 6 games in, and have almost a 300 rating. Plateau? Not really.


Again, like so many things with MH, I think that depends on your group and the way they play and structure their campaigns. If you award a champ based on warband rating, that's a concern. If you tend to end with some kind of tournament, either round-robin or single elimination, it only takes a bad game for the lead warband to slip up. And again, I really can't imagine any warband being so far out in front that they're unbeatable. That's much of the beauty of MH...some crits at the right time and the wrong scenario can really help out an underdog.

Single elimination is lame for mordheim. It really is, as Winning isn't always the goal. I've lost scenarios and still come out miles ahead of my opponent, due to better injury rolls, etc. A Goal in the game is much more useful for a MH campaign.


In my experience, once you're built up enough to afford them, other warbands are tooled up enough that they can deal with them. A few quick-shooting xbows or longbows with hunting arrows can make surprisingly short work of them, and h2h warbands often have a hero or two that are already nastier than the big guy. And being that they're big guys, they almost always attract too much attention. I see your point on the Rat Ogre, but personally I wouldn't buy a RO for a Skaven warband unless I was already maxed out and had more gcs than I knew what to do with. I think one of the Skaven's strengths is that they don't have a lot of enticing targets...just a ton of little rats with slings everywhere.

I saved up and bought a rat ogre for game 3 of my campaign. Most warbands were still (at most) 3 advances for any single model. I also after the 4th game added Veskit who is a WHORE of a DP. He really is.

Is he an enticing target? Sure is! I don't argue, however, you have to be able to shoot him. If I'm facing a warband of Bows or slings, I don't give a crap. That means you're likely BS3 or 4 at most, and you're only going to wound with 1 in 6 hits. So, that means on average you need 18 shots to inflict a SINGLE wound on the ogre, who can't be critted and has 3 wounds.

If you've got crossbows? Buildings are useful, as we use a LOT of terrain. 12", as long as he's babysat by a black skaven and a night runner, and he stands an excellent chance of only getting shot at once or twice on his way across the board.


The advantage I see in Trolls is that they don't die when they inevitably go OOA. So they're not bad as an arrow-catcher. I'd never buy one early on, but if I'd maxed out I'd consider it. I just don't like 200+ gc investments that die 33% of the time on OOAs. In your example, the Rat Ogre is much better than the Verminkin, but it's also less efficient with gcs, as Mark correctly pointed out. Even when experienced henchmen die, they can be "bought back" for some extra gcs if you really want (presuming there's still a henchmen left in the group).

Yup, the 'I don't die' and the vomit attack make the Troll pretty sweet, but it's still T4, so it can die fairly easily. And the upkeep can hurt after a bad game.


Again, I think Skaven are the best of the rulebook bands, although I think Sisters gave them a run for their money pre-rules review. I just think the disparity isn't as great at people make it out to be. Personally, I think well-run Merc bands can be quite strong, and Sisters still have their strengths. WHs are unforgiving to play but their access to Shooting and Academic skills are real strengths. Undead aren't bad, but they're too reliant on the Vampire and likewise tend to plateau. Possessed...well, I'm not a fan. The Possessed hero rocks, but there are too many overpriced things in that list. Which is too bad, as they could be one of the coolest.

Just my opinion(s).

Actually post RR? Sisters got WAAAAAY more vicious.

You can start with 5 heroes and 10 sisters with minimal equipment including slings. OR...

5 heroes with whips, 5 sisters, and 5 novices. (or something like that) Novices are great if you don't plan on using them to shoot.

Whips and Siggy Hammers are presently the two best single handed weapons in the game. I ALWAYS give my heroines one of each. Whips to bump them to 3A in the first round of combat, and siggy hammers for the +1S attack.

Tres chic.

I've faced a vampire band with a startting sisters band. I was underdog by 175 rating or something sick? I offed the vampire and a couple of ghouls. Then he left. I lost a single sister (henchie). I was awesome.

There's NOTHING wrong with sisters, at all!

Jasonite
12-12-2006, 04:59
Possessed can't use weapons or armor. They CAN use mutations, which are typically worth the investment early on.

I took 1 magister, 2 possessed, 1 mutant, 1 Brethren, and 1 Beastman.

After my first game, I bought my other mutant.

I made sure they all had one mutation (more than that to start is really putting lots of eggs in one basket)

I like Giant Claw, and for the mutant, I like Scorpion Tail. Extra attacks are always nice. I took tentacle with one because it's nice to tie someone up and take away their "best" attack.

I wouldn't bother with the bow for the mutant... BS3 ain't so good, and you'd rather have him charging in whenever possible with that tail.

I think you DO want a beastman... I think you'd rather have one of them become a hero first... :)

Anyway, that's my 0.02.

J

mark.
12-12-2006, 17:14
Oh I see possessed cant use weapons :( very annoying as I've already glued up the weapons, and without weapons theyre a pretty bad choice.

And about the bows, they are a bit expensive, should I drop 2 of the bows for another arme brether?

And as for the beastmen, they are a really good choice I think but only too bad havent got the models and they'd ruin my theme, else I wouldve surely bought 3 of them!

But still some questions: am I right to field brethern instead of darksouls?

Should I drop 1-2 possessed for extra men?

I dotn think a mutation on possessed is good, its expensive an doesnt improve the number of wounds in my warband which is my primary weakness.

gorgon
12-12-2006, 21:22
Combine that with their nasty ability to get the charge (5x M6 heroes) and you're going to lose models in a hurry. In my warband of 9 models on a charge I normally kill 4-6 models. Since only 1 of my models has less than 3 attacks. 2 have poisoned attacks, and I'm just mean. And they're only like 5 or 6 games in, and have almost a 300 rating. Plateau? Not really.

I think we mostly have 12-15 games in before our playoffs begin. So the bands are a little more advanced at that point, and as such we find everyone has some pretty nasty stuff. Heck, even WHs can have things like a Flagellent hero with multiple attacks, Strongman, Resilient, Step Aside, mandrake root, etc.

Regarding the RO, picking one up after 3 games can only be pulled off with the old mini-warband gambit. A normal-sized band can't pull in enough gcs while replacing losses, buying needed equipment, etc. and get a big guy that quickly. While it works sometimes, it's in danger of getting punked by the same kind of 15-skaven warbands that started this thread.


Single elimination is lame for mordheim. It really is, as Winning isn't always the goal. I've lost scenarios and still come out miles ahead of my opponent, due to better injury rolls, etc. A Goal in the game is much more useful for a MH campaign.

IMO, goals are hard to balance among warbands, and they've led to more complaints than anything else. We'll typically have an "open" season (play whomever you want), then a "playoff" season that's some kind of tournament. Usually it's a round-robin, but we try to change it up a little each time.

And also IMO, one of the major flaws in the game is that winning isn't important enough, for all the reasons you mention. That's why we like to emphasize playing to win during our playoff time. Losses and voluntary routing shouldn't net anyone a trophy.


I saved up and bought a rat ogre for game 3 of my campaign. Most warbands were still (at most) 3 advances for any single model. I also after the 4th game added Veskit who is a WHORE of a DP. He really is.

Eh, we ban all DPs. They're all whores, honestly.


Is he an enticing target? Sure is! I don't argue, however, you have to be able to shoot him. If I'm facing a warband of Bows or slings, I don't give a crap. That means you're likely BS3 or 4 at most, and you're only going to wound with 1 in 6 hits. So, that means on average you need 18 shots to inflict a SINGLE wound on the ogre, who can't be critted and has 3 wounds.

It's more the combination of shooting and S4 henchmen with hammers, etc. that tend to do in the big guys in our games. The more MH I've played, the less scared I've been of big bad single models. There's just too many ways to deal with them. *shrug*

And if you want a good Vampire story, I once killed one with a Goblin...a crit, an OOA and a death in the postgame. Not like you can ever count on this stuff happening, but it's a screwy game sometimes.


Whips and Siggy Hammers are presently the two best single handed weapons in the game. I ALWAYS give my heroines one of each. Whips to bump them to 3A in the first round of combat, and siggy hammers for the +1S attack.

But whips were better pre-RR when they were completely broken. And I do think Sisters are good, just a notch beneath Skaven. Although I still think the disparity isn't as big as people make it out to be, at least among the rulebook bands.

Jasonite
13-12-2006, 05:29
Oh I see possessed cant use weapons :( very annoying as I've already glued up the weapons, and without weapons theyre a pretty bad choice.

And about the bows, they are a bit expensive, should I drop 2 of the bows for another arme brether?

And as for the beastmen, they are a really good choice I think but only too bad havent got the models and they'd ruin my theme, else I wouldve surely bought 3 of them!

But still some questions: am I right to field brethern instead of darksouls?

Should I drop 1-2 possessed for extra men?

I dotn think a mutation on possessed is good, its expensive an doesnt improve the number of wounds in my warband which is my primary weakness.

1. Do NOT drop a possessed. The game is NOT won with extra figures... it's won with DURABLE figures that don't leave the table. Possessed are GOOD. Giving them a mutation like Giant Claw is fantastic... an extra attack at +1 Strength is phenominal... 2x 4Str attacks, and 1x 5Str attack... when they go up, give them Sprint... a 15" charge from a guy who causes fear? Amazing.

2. Extra men that are weak aren't worth it. I think starting with a lower warband rating is GOOD. You can get experience faster, and you can always add to your henchman groups when they go up once or twice.

3. Max out on heroes if you can, it means more money coming in. I recommend giving up one Mutant for the first battle if you have to.

4. Mutants NEED a mutation. They're weak humans otherwise with NO benefit. Starting them with a mutation is awesome, especially something that makes them better than human.

5. I'd keep a bow on the magister. He won't be casting spells every turn, and keeping him at range with a bow (and his BS 4) is a good way to keep him alive :)

6. Don't emphasize wounds in the warband... most races don't have ANYONE with more than one wound. Possessed have 2, so it's a great reason to take both... but really, don't make too much out of it. I'd recommend getting a beastman model or two if you really like extra wounds. Making one of them a hero is awesome if you can manage it.

7. You're on the right track when it comes to Darksouls... I personally think they aren't worth the points. The 4 Str is nice, but the 2 BS/WS aren't worth it, in my humble opinion :)

Cheers,
J

mark.
13-12-2006, 08:03
Ok in that case, here is the list:

Magister, sword, mace, bow = 98gc
Possessed = 90gc
Possessed = 90gc
Mutant, scorpion tail, axe, mace = 73gc
4 Brethern, 4 axes, 4 maces (divided among them in all combinations) = 132gc

This leaves me with ~ 20gc, useful in saving up for next time? Or is a bow on the mutant in place? He's got a moderate BS3 but he's still a hero and gets xp on a kill, plus it leaves me with double shotfire.

I'm also pretty interested in beastmen, they are cool and very strong, and if I spray them black they'd fit right in my army's theme.

About the possessed mutations, I think they are a little overpriced, because for example one of the best mutations, scorpion tail, 1 strenght 5 hit is not as good as 2 concussioning s3 hits, while an extra brethern is cheaper and also increases the number of wounds in my warband.
Ofcourse strenght gets really good against high toughness models, but since the brethern have got room to expand their strenght, the mutations keep being overpriced, except for a great claw on a possessed after some games, it improves as the possessed improves his strenght.

It is still a dillemma, do you have experience with a possessed warband for a longer campagin, or somebody else?

thunderwolf
13-12-2006, 10:01
Nb: you can only buy mutations when initially picking the model- they can't be bought later on. Of course, you could always dismiss the Possessed and get a new one later, but it seems like a waste of gc; if it were me, I'd probably drop a couple of brethren and give the Possessed something to start off with. It's easier to buy more cheap henchmen than expensive heroes.

TKitch
13-12-2006, 23:32
there's 2 distinct thoughts on possessed.

1) Start with a tiny warband, but one royally tooled up possessed model. It's pretty scary to see a model with 4 or 5 attacks to start, when they're all S4 or 5. And T4 and all? Dang, man, they RULE!

2) More models, I'd start with 1 naked possessed and 2 cheap mutants (make them cause fear or give em blackblood) and then a mess of henchies. And once you can save up 400GC+, buy a tank of a possessed. Watch him tear thru opponents! :)

mark.
14-12-2006, 18:19
I've made up a new list:

magister, sword, mace
possessed
possessed
mutant, scorptail, axe, mace
beastman, axe, mace
beastman, mace, mace
beastman, hammer

Many defence and average offense, no shooting.

And tkitch, I dont like the first option, too many weakness, it might own but too fragile, shooting is even more hurtful then as of now and t4 2w can still be taken down close combat, the 4 s4/5 hits dont guaramtee me of kill and etting charged is very dangerous, a single critical will have alot of chance to kill me instantly, if im stunned or knocked down, gg possessed.

Second is better but dont think Ill ever get 400gc, but if you think it will work, Ill modify my list but myself Im still uncertain.

Anyway thanks for the replies, and can you tell me, is the list Ive posted now a good one?

Jasonite
14-12-2006, 22:28
I like it... though I'd drop a beastman and a weapon here or there to add:

1. Bow on the Magister. I don't think you want him mixing it up. Drop his mace, the sword and a free dagger are fine "in case".
2. Get a mutation on ONE of the possessed. They're GOOD, but mutations make them better. a 4S 4T guy who causes fear and moves fast... do you want to settle for two attacks when you can give him a 3rd with a few different upgrades?? Don't bother with the Tail on him... but an extra arm or giant claw are BOTH great options. Seriously, don't miss out on that one.

After your first match, you can buy another mutant with a Tail or something... fantastic stuff there. :)


By the way, Tkitch is right... they do NOT have too many weaknesses! Remember, you move 5. You outcharge almost anyone out there. Get Sprint and this guy rocks.
Remember also, they cause FEAR, so a few charges won't even get to you.

Criticals will mess up your day no matter what... but I wouldn't play too pessimistic, either.

J

mark.
15-12-2006, 08:48
Ok if you all recommed a mutation on possessed so heavily, I'll choose one in favor of a beastman.

Im thinking of blackblood or extra arm/claw upgrade.

Im not sure about the bow, because Im runnign to the enemy anyways, I cant fire it, unless I meet a completely bowless warband in that case its very much worth the points, else not...

The bow however looks cool on the magi's back.

TKitch
15-12-2006, 12:16
I wouldn't go out of your way to get a bow in game 1, but get one sometime.

If your opponent knows you have NO shooting, his strategy can be a lot different than if you have a little shooting.

mark.
15-12-2006, 12:25
A bow can be useful because if the opponent is entirely bowless, I have got a great tactical advantage.

But else it has no use, when enemy has shooting I have to run to the enemy, and I cant shoot+run.

The oponnent warband are orcs, dwarfs, elves, mercenaries and rest I dont know, so already very shooty warbands.

I think Ill dump the bow.

edit: also have got a rules question, what if a blackblood possessed loses a wound while base to abse against a stunned model, will the model be killed by the blackblood or has to roll critical and only killed by 5-6 (just as missile fire)

Jasonite
15-12-2006, 21:51
I don't care for blackblood as a solo mutation. It's too reactive/defensive for my taste... I prefer things that add attacks and such.

If you get charged and you take wounds, the model(s) that take out the possessed probably cost less than the possessed, so it's still a trade someone will want to make.

As far as the bow... it's not so black and white. Don't assume your guy will be running all the time. Try a walk towards the enemy and take the shot. It's not a short bow, and picking off a goblin with a bow here and there is always nice exp. You don't need it from game 1, but it's very useful to have... but don't assume that you have to charge someone if they're ranged-heavy, either. Most scenarios don't require that... there are other ways to get close to your opponent on most boards, too.

Just take a few Rope & Hooks if you're worried about elevated archers.

J

TKitch
16-12-2006, 06:31
blackblood is ******* awesome on a possessed model.

They usually get swarmed, since they're strong and tough. A free S3 hit on ALL the models is phenominal.

As for the Q: You roll to wound and injury as normal. The blackblood isn't an attack, and as such won't benefit from the auto OOA rules in MH.

Jasonite
16-12-2006, 08:37
good point ;-)

I just never have the cash to afford it at the start, I'd rather take tentacle and eliminate the most dangerous attack, I guess... *shrug*

J

mark.
16-12-2006, 13:00
Blackblood is only good if your going to get hit, and I think Im using my beastmen mainly as interceptors, so I dont think blackblood will be worth it for me.

Also, when I get to have a T increase for a possessed or beastman hero, is it worth it to give him dodge and make him prime arrow catcher, when there are elevated archers, Ill just turn and take another way through the buildings.

Will this work? I think its especially nice on a beastman hero, the expectation of getting one is 1 out of 2 xp increases for all the 3 beastmen.

Now regarding the bow, I think Ill skip out first game, but later Ill get to buy one certainly, maybe for my mutant(s) as well...

mark.
19-12-2006, 15:22
I also have a question.

Buying one ithilmar dagger gives you +1 Initiative on all CC attacks?

If so, isn't 6gc for +1 Initiative cheap and a good choice?