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Mr.terminatorbob
05-07-2005, 23:30
I was wondering what are servitors are they robots, humans,?

Kelroth
05-07-2005, 23:41
They're cyborgs. The human parts come from a variety of sources - failed Space Marines, humans who have seen more than they should, loyal Imperial servants who are too injured to survive by mortal means but can be used as the human part of a servitor, etc.

SAMAS
05-07-2005, 23:41
Often lombotomized, too.

Eversor
05-07-2005, 23:42
:chrome: Some are made from "artificially cultured drone bodies; others are mind-wiped humans who have committed some terrible crime" (Codex Imperialis, page 45). So they are not AI:s in the classical robot sense. Mindless automatons, yes, but definitely human (or ab-human) and biological in origin.

Puffin Magician
06-07-2005, 00:00
To answer your question, they're both: cyborgs. Basically a Borg from ST in the literal sense without the sophistocation of a Hive Mind or any nanogadgets. Simple as a toaster, actually; you tell them what to do and they do it without a thought.

Spectre
06-07-2005, 00:35
Simple like a toaster eh?
*Glances at the servitor with a multi-melta*

In Soviet Russ... err, I mean, the glorious Imperium, the toasters toast you!

zealousheretic
06-07-2005, 04:43
Lol, that's a good one.

But yeah, servitors are cyborgs. The Imperium holds true AI as an affront to the divinity of human intelligence, so robots or the like aren't allowed. Thus, servitors; they're essentially robots with wetware.

Sai-Lauren
06-07-2005, 10:21
Depends on what they are used for. Where we would use industrial robots, the imperium would use vat grown lumps of flesh, but things like weapon servitors might once have been human - such as former guardsmen who've suffered massive brain trauma in combat, such that their personality is utterly gone.

Eversor
06-07-2005, 10:25
Where we would use industrial robots, the imperium would use vat grown lumps of flesh, <snip>
:chrome: Servitors are never "lumps of flesh". They're always human in form and function, even if they're grown "in vitro".

Nazguire
06-07-2005, 12:03
My idea of a servitor that for all intents and purposes it's a robot. A robot covered in human organics, with the semblance of a human to appease the Ad Mech. The brain is lobotomised to a ridiculous extent, so that only what is needed to get the Servitor moving will be there, organs that aren't needed to survive when there are mechanical equivalents (in 40k, pretty much everything) and basically, all that's left is a machine with pretty much AI in every resemblance other than than general appearance.

Lord Balor
06-07-2005, 12:39
Servitors are basically Robots but not. A little history lesson is in order to understand what and why they are.

Since the Dark age of technology (Age of strife), human civiliation (Not the Imperium yet) accelerated technologically at a rapid rate that makes the current Imperium look crude and barbaric. Man heavily relied on Robots with vast AI's but then something happened. The Robots rebelled and a galatic civil war errupted between the stone men (Mankind) and the Iron Men (machine). Eventually humanity won, but at a great cost. Ancient and deadly weapons had been unleashed and sundering the galaxy, essentially reducing civiliation to scattered empires, most of whihc were to be reunited with the Emperor's Great Crusade. Since then AI has been basically prohibited and seen as one of the most heretical acts to commit. Hence you have the machine spirit and machines are basically only able to do but the most basic of computations. Even the Titans are guided by only an animalistic 'soul'. The second thing to consider is that the Human Form is venerated in the 40K Universe and as such you have servo-skulls (Robots retaining the human form) and Servitors (A mix and mash between flesh and steel, but essentially still 'human').

In this way, servitors can be considered robots in that they are Mindless automatons which respond to commands, but are origiannly biological, not mechanical. Servitors are created in all manner of fashion, but the most common is a simple lobotimy/mind wipe to criminals and replacing limbs with bionics to suit thier purpose.

Lord-Warlock
06-07-2005, 13:01
Just a little note on that: The Dark Age of Technology wasn't the Age of Strife, the Age of Strife was the five thousand year post-apocalyptic era that followed the Iron Men (Robot) revolt. Otherwise, very correct - servo-skulls are the craniums of devoted servants who labour on in death, servitors are convicted criminals and also come in specialised forms, such as the Ecclesiarchy's arco-flagellants, etc.

Flame Boy
06-07-2005, 22:20
So, would it be more appropriate to call Servitors "Biological robots" rather than "cyborgs"? In the most extreme cases they are severely lobotomised mono-task servitors with no will of their own, after all...

It would help to keep the disctinction between cybernetic augmentation (or Augmetics as Dan Abnett loves to call them) and full-on conversion into a servitor...

t-tauri
06-07-2005, 22:54
An augmented human keeps free will and some element of self determination. The servitor exists solely to obey orders from an authorised source. Some servitors will have some degree of initiative like Adeptus Mechanicus high level combat servitors/bodyguards but most servitors are simply using the biological components of the brain to substitute for the banned integrated circuits.

Minister
07-07-2005, 01:23
Any being both robotic and organic not able to function without both is a cybrg. Technically, anyone with a pacemaker or similar is a cyborg...

Wiseman
07-07-2005, 07:18
ive always imagined servitors as humans that are completely lobotomized with mechanical apparatus stuck on.

Azrael
07-07-2005, 19:06
Servitors, think of episode two of starwars, there clone troopers, that we decided could be better so we build there guns in, and made those ones for fighting, they are robotic in nature, because they have "programming" I believe, Protect Inquisitor for example, or dig trench, if anyone has read terry pratchet novels they kind of remind me of wimpy gollems.

Lord_krok
08-07-2005, 07:39
If you don't have anything else to do, read a gaunts ghosts novle or a imperial book likt that. they ussally have a servitor reference or two.

Eversor
08-07-2005, 10:24
If you don't have anything else to do, read a gaunts ghosts novle or a imperial book likt that. they ussally have a servitor reference or two.
:chrome: And are complete crocks of **** when it comes to background ;) Buy old rulebooks and codexes instead, they are much more reliable as background sources.

Azrael
09-07-2005, 00:11
can you buy old codex's, I have heard that the second edition codex for space marines was chock full of cool info, chaos too.

Eversor
09-07-2005, 00:23
can you buy old codex's, I have heard that the second edition codex for space marines was chock full of cool info, chaos too.
:chrome: Yep, they're all great. Just look for them on eBay. The best of them all - background wise - is the Sisters of Battle codex. It has a great lowdown on some of the internal workings of the Imperium. The Codex Imperialis book from the 2:nd edition box is another gem.

The Orks and Eldar codexes are must-haves for collectors. The 3:rd edition books simply can't compete with them in regards to information. And if you find them, Rogue Trader books are great sources as well.

Azrael
10-07-2005, 19:59
I know what you mean, the ork codex has so little info on what it truly means to be an ork, I found armageddon was a little better but only expanded on the little there was.

Nazguire
11-07-2005, 01:22
I know what you mean, the ork codex has so little info on what it truly means to be an ork, I found armageddon was a little better but only expanded on the little there was.


Agreed, the 3rd Edition Codex/Armageddon tell us nothing about their culture, politics, beliefs etc.

Wheres Gork and Mork? The Klans? The Mekboyz background?

Brusilov
11-07-2005, 06:22
This is one of the reasons Orks need a big update, it's one of the few old Codices from the beginning of 3rd Ed., when GW considered fluff was not worth mentioning in Codices.

Minister
11-07-2005, 12:21
That, and much of the old stuff has been eased out of place all together.

Not as bad as the Dark Eldar, though. WHat there is is actually quite good, but there's just nowhere near enough of it.

Nazguire
11-07-2005, 12:29
That, and much of the old stuff has been eased out of place all together.

Not as bad as the Dark Eldar, though. WHat there is is actually quite good, but there's just nowhere near enough of it.


Yes, they do.

Mainly background on their society, the Haemonculi and Wyches. So much potential...wasted.


Also, please oh for the love of giraffes don't make them essentially Chaos Eldar. Please just make them sadistic bastards who like pain not because they worship Slaanesh or try to stave of Slaanesh, but because they enjoy it and inflicting pain.

Emphasise throughout the entire book, that they CHOOSE to live the way they do, not because they HAVE to. :skull:

Minister
11-07-2005, 23:42
Indeed, do exactly what there is allready, but more of it. Push them as far as you can whilst still sticking to the audience. Push them beyond spikey Evil Vilain stage into Unpleasant (which is worse, as they tend to kill people in messy and protracted ways rather than making grandiose speaches about the Power of the Dark Side and such).

Nazguire
12-07-2005, 00:37
Indeed, do exactly what there is allready, but more of it. Push them as far as you can whilst still sticking to the audience. Push them beyond spikey Evil Vilain stage into Unpleasant (which is worse, as they tend to kill people in messy and protracted ways rather than making grandiose speaches about the Power of the Dark Side and such).



Yes exactly, GW we want the most messiest, debauched, violent, evil and sadistic codex that you can manage.

We want pointy eared gimps, violence on an unprecedented scale of 40k codicies, slaves on leashes, scantily clad warrior women and torture devices that hurt worse than a stale Christmas Pudding. Make it a dominatrix's dream! Except without the Dominatrix. Or the grandiose speeches of jioning the Dark Side as you said.

Once again Minister is correct. :D

swordquest
12-07-2005, 01:42
scantily clad warrior women
:D
And NO scantily clad warrior men. Male wytches etc. are pretty creepy. I am not doing this because I am male, but for the love of Khorn, who likes the male wytches? I have been told by my girlfriend that they look like "shemale freakish man women" and are not in the least bit atractive. They look like male crack whores!

orangesm
12-07-2005, 05:37
Back to servitors huh?

Anyway - the general idea that servitors are mindless isnt totally accurte. Servitors can have higher brain functions like knowledge, computation, pattern logic, logical analysis, etc. However it would lack the highest levels of intellegence like moral judgement, creativity, etc. This is the only difference between some Servitors and some Ad Mech Tech Priest - the fact that the Tech Priest still possess creativity and morality.

Servitors are less than cybernetic humans (cyborg), but can be more than simple programmed machines.

Minister
12-07-2005, 12:18
And NO scantily clad warrior men. Male wytches etc. are pretty creepy. I am not doing this because I am male, but for the love of Khorn, who likes the male wytches? I have been told by my girlfriend that they look like "shemale freakish man women" and are not in the least bit atractive. They look like male crack whores!
1. They probably are "crack whores".
2. Elves and their derivatives are not suposed to be attractive. They are anorexic androgenous freaks.
3. Theyre fraggin' well suposed to be freaky! They're Dark Eldar!

True servitors are indeed without any analysis capacty above that which is posessed by Imperial logic drives. Logicians and other augmented human-based units, however, are in full command of such faculties.

Azrael
12-07-2005, 15:43
but could there be any higher servitors, for instance Data could he be considered a servitor? Or is he just a robot with a dream.

Eversor
12-07-2005, 15:54
but could there be any higher servitors, for instance Data could he be considered a servitor? Or is he just a robot with a dream.
If you're talking about the Star Trek Data, he's definitely no servitor. He's an android/robot/AI/whatever.

Servitors in 40k are not robots in the "traditional" meaning. They are mind-wiped humans with bionic body parts. The amount of logical thinking they have is dependent on their bionics, programming and most of all their purpose. But they're no AI's.

Azrael
12-07-2005, 16:36
right AI is evil, are there any times where Servitors have goten there memories back?

Eversor
12-07-2005, 16:52
right AI is evil, are there any times where Servitors have goten there memories back?
:chrome: I haven't read anything about it, but it would be interesting prospect ;)

archangels uk
12-07-2005, 17:00
Lol, that's a good one.

But yeah, servitors are cyborgs. The Imperium holds true AI as an affront to the divinity of human intelligence, so robots or the like aren't allowed. Thus, servitors; they're essentially robots with wetware.


You sure?, robots are allowed and used by the imperuim

LoerdofallJoy
12-07-2005, 17:13
Servitors in 40k are not robots in the "traditional" meaning. They are mind-wiped humans with bionic body parts. The amount of logical thinking they have is dependent on their bionics, programming and most of all their purpose. But they're no AI's.

Agreed, they're like breathing calculators, the organic bit does the breathing (and having a soul etc etc) so that the form is 'allowable' to the Imperium, the bionics and what-not actually perform the purpose.

Begs the question as to what happens when the organic bit dies - are the bionic pieces re-useable? I assume yes (look at Yarrick) but would this be standard practice? In servitors I suppose it would - they've got no way of saying no - but eyes/ ears etc (especially the good ones - they are quite rare) must be difficult to produce, but the process of extracting and replacing sounds a bit 'ikky'.

Anyone know of anything to back this up?

LoaJ

Xisor
12-07-2005, 17:38
I can imagine them just pouring battery acid (or some sort of dissolving thing...)on corpses and dissolving all the biological material and scooping up the leftovers for reuse.

However, I imagine that 'brains' are highly prised by being converted and slaved to the machines. They'd make excellent computers if we could harness them, and I imagine thats exactly what the Adeptus Mechanicus have done.

Xisor

orangesm
12-07-2005, 23:09
The Imperium does have AIs in use - Machine Spirits. They are limited in their capbility and thus lack anything close to the AI that most people associate with a futuristic setting - no Andriods are walking around. Now a servitor can be regarded as nothing but a mind scrubbed/programmed pit slave. A pit slave with augmented mining equipment for arms is great at what he does with the only motivation to continue to work is food and continued existance. Now a servo-scribe, who follows around some high level Hive noble, needs to do one thing and that is write down what it is told. If it had anything approaching free will/motivation or for that matter could be easily reprogrammed, then that would put the user in danger. What better way to kill someone than have one of the automatic aids kill him!

However I think we have answered the general question of what a servitor is. We are delving well beyond what a servitor basicly is and are now going into defining the different catergories and the fine line between servitor and augmented human. Think of the banks of servitors/humans in an Imperial Navy Cruiser. Subjects A,B,C,D may be nothing more than a logic servitor, while subject E sitting right behind the others could be a Lt in the Imperial Navy charged with tracking all ships in the Cruiser's area of responsiblity - whats more is the physical difference at a glance between the two may be almost nothing at all! So a servitor would have to be described as a human who lacks creativity, is programmed for a specific task or some other nessecary difference from a standard augmented human.

Minister
12-07-2005, 23:48
I would note that, according to Deus ex Machina and various other sources, the standard practice by the Mechanicus is to strip-down any resource not capable of further functioning propperly. This includes Titans, vehicles, servitors, tech-priests... anyone and anything that can be re-cycled is. Anything that cannot is smelted down or thrown into the bio-reclamation vats.

Makes you proud to be a 40K player, doesn't it?

orangesm
13-07-2005, 01:44
We are great recyclers :D

Eversor
13-07-2005, 10:22
:chrome: I can imagine the Adeptus Mechanicus' slogans.
Recycle, or be recycled... :D

archangels uk
13-07-2005, 11:57
LEGIO CYBERNETICA

The Adeptus Mechanicus is divided into many sub-branches and divisions. Each specialises in one of the myriad areas of the technical arcana. The Legio Cybernetica is one of the oldest parts of the Adeptus Mechanicus. Its records stretch back almost unbroken to the very first days of the Imperium and, it's assumed, to the times before the Imperium. The Legio has a long history, and its members regard themselves as an elite.

The Legio is responsible for the care and construction of all Robots throughout the Imperium. Robots may be used by all kinds of Army and Marine forces, but they are always under the Legio's final control. Indeed, many of the Adepts of the Legio have been killed while taking part in military operations. The Legio continues to serve, aware of its value as a fighting force, even in the face of 90% plus casualties

LoerdofallJoy
13-07-2005, 12:28
LEGIO CYBERNETICA

The Adeptus Mechanicus is divided into many sub-branches and divisions. Each specialises in one of the myriad areas of the technical arcana. The Legio Cybernetica is one of the oldest parts of the Adeptus Mechanicus. Its records stretch back almost unbroken to the very first days of the Imperium and, it's assumed, to the times before the Imperium. The Legio has a long history, and its members regard themselves as an elite.

The Legio is responsible for the care and construction of all Robots throughout the Imperium. Robots may be used by all kinds of Army and Marine forces, but they are always under the Legio's final control. Indeed, many of the Adepts of the Legio have been killed while taking part in military operations. The Legio continues to serve, aware of its value as a fighting force, even in the face of 90% plus casualties

Holy Moly that's old! That's RT/Space Marine era, right? (slap me upside the head if it is recent) Most of that has now been superceded by the 'No Robots Allowed' mantra of the Eclesiasty (sp). Robots were allegedly banned after the Iron Men uprising which occurred at the end of the Dark Age of Technology (DAoT) which was covered at the back of the 3rd ed rule book.

On the recycling: so we seem to be content that the mechanical parts are recycled as the tech is hard to replicate* (*insert any 'rule of cool' here).

But I certainly didn't see them 'recycling' organic parts. The servitors would need to be 'melded down' to their constituents and would contain useful nutrients/ chemicals. But why would they bother? In an age where any crime can be punished by death and the cheapest commidity around is human life you simply wouldn't need to recycle.

Of course that brings up why would they recycle people for nutrients? To grow clones: of people? again why bother; of animals? slightly more likely. But the main reason would seem to be that most servitors would be on relativly industrialised/ AdMech worlds - these have little in the way of food & need to import most of it. Would the servitors 'essence' simply be added to the 'nutrient goo' that I expect most of the population would eat. So are Hive dwellers and others unwitting canibals?

Maybe I'm wrong - but that's a little unsettling!

LoaJ

Hideous Loon
13-07-2005, 13:10
True, that *does* make me a tad uneasy. But what you don't know won't hurt you, right?

orangesm
13-07-2005, 17:59
It is unsettling to us who like to think ourselves above eating broken down humans, however have you ever had corn? or any other vegetable for that matter? Who knows what human bodies have been thrown in whatever fields. Are there are plenty of other possiblities for modern humans to injest what is only one or two steps way from being another human in a food chain! The hives are just breaking them down mechanically vs natrually/biologically. But I digress...

El_Machinae
13-07-2005, 19:50
I'd be interested to learn the productive value of a servitor compared to a normal, trained, labourer. Does a servitor have a greater output than a willing person? Do they have a greater output compared to a slave? What are the opportunity costs of making a slave into a servitor? Hmmn.

LoerdofallJoy
14-07-2005, 09:17
It is unsettling to us who like to think ourselves above eating broken down humans, however have you ever had corn? or any other vegetable for that matter? Who knows what human bodies have been thrown in whatever fields. Are there are plenty of other possiblities for modern humans to injest what is only one or two steps way from being another human in a food chain! The hives are just breaking them down mechanically vs natrually/biologically. But I digress...

Eating corn fertilised using broken down human remains and eating human remains are, I think you will agree, pretty different things though.


I'd be interested to learn the productive value of a servitor compared to a normal, trained, labourer. Does a servitor have a greater output than a willing person? Do they have a greater output compared to a slave? What are the opportunity costs of making a slave into a servitor? Hmmn.

I would imagine you could work a servitor until it collapsed then just plug it in again (along with some baby food al-la robocop). A servitor would also be programmed to perform a task that a human finds more difficult (e.g. screwdriving - hurts your hands and is fiddly no matter how 'pushed' you are as a slave - a robotic attachment with a screwdriver makes it a whole lot easier).

Being lobotomised you're also less likely to see servitors being surley, difficult or having an uprising than a human. So servitors would most likely be used for very heavy/ very boring/ very fiddly jobs. Slaves would do the easy stuff - digging, laying roads, mixing cement etc.

That's my take on it anyway.

LoaJ

Minister
14-07-2005, 11:12
Problem is, as I have learned working on a line with mechanical packing machines, unless something is watched carefully machines can be haenously wasteful. A human operator will note that stage 5 is flawed, and hence will stop before completing stage 6. A machine will pass it down the line to the next machine and so-on, thus the mistake is only realised at the final stage, and the entire assembly must be scrapped.

LoerdofallJoy
14-07-2005, 11:50
That's true, but would you trust a slave to do it either? Whether you use machines or slaves the slavedriver/ tech-adept is going to have to keep an eye on what's going on.

Flame Boy
14-07-2005, 20:07
Problem is, as I have learned working on a line with mechanical packing machines, unless something is watched carefully machines can be haenously wasteful. A human operator will note that stage 5 is flawed, and hence will stop before completing stage 6. A machine will pass it down the line to the next machine and so-on, thus the mistake is only realised at the final stage, and the entire assembly must be scrapped.


If you worked where I worked, you'd find this comparison is quite appropriate for the workers there, and they don't appear to be servitors. Well, they don't have any bionic augmentations... not sure about the lobotomy... :p

When it takes until our picture frames arriving in the dispatch department before rejects are discovered... it shows the production department aren't awake... Long story short, a servitor isn't going to show mental fatigue, so they are less likely to make some kinds of mistakes, however, unless they have a certain degree of common sense remaining in them, there could still be problems... I'm getting images of a servitor making a big pile of manufactured goods on the floor because the servitor programmed to load them onto a shuttle is in the machine shop undergoing unexpected maintenance...

Minister
14-07-2005, 22:32
That's the kind of problems I'm talking about, and it is most difficult to write a "show some bloody common sense, fool! programe.