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larabic
22-11-2006, 04:48
How does law of gold (Lore of metal spell) affect a Dwarf Warmachine with a rune on it...i know it counts as a magical attack but is it a magic item that can be negated?

WLBjork
22-11-2006, 14:46
The opposing player must nominate one magic item carried by any model in the unit.

As no Dwarf model carries a Warmachine, the Law of Gold will not affect a Runic Dwarf Warmachine.

Festus
22-11-2006, 14:57
Hi

The opposing player must nominate one magic item carried by any model in the unit.


...and a WarMachine is not a Magic Item... so it cannot be affected.

Festus

Griefbringer
22-11-2006, 15:18
As no Dwarf model carries a Warmachine

I can see some conversion potential here though, using the shieldbearers.

But as mentioned, even a runed up war machine is still just a war machine, not a magic item.

DeathlessDraich
22-11-2006, 16:37
The question has not been examined sufficiently.
There are 3 areas which need to be looked at carefully

1) "The ...player nominates one magic item carried by any model"

Is the word "carried" being taken too literally?
It should not. A magic ring is not 'carried' by a finger, a magic helm is not 'carried' by a head in the strictest sense of the term, they are both 'worn'. What about magic items of which it is not known how it adorns or is carried by the user? Would they be 'carried' or not? I think the distinction is supefluous. It is possession of a magic item that the poorly worded statement above is referring to - this is confirmed by (3) below.
Therefore an interpretation which places emphasis on the word 'carried' is not rigorous.

2) A warmachine is a 'model in a unit' and can be magical from runes. This satisfies the condition for LOG. In fact in a different thread most players agreed that runes on Dwarven Warmachines makes their shots magical - a possible side debate here.

3) The final statement in the rule clearly states the limitations of the spell:
"The LOG has no effect on a unit that does not include any models with magic items"

The word 'carry' or 'carried' is not used. The converse (which logically applies to any rule) of statement (3) is "The LOG has an effect on a unit that does include any models with magic items"

Festus
22-11-2006, 16:42
So???

It still can't be affected. Or did you want to say otherwise? :D

Festus

edit: And noone said that shots from a runic warmachine are not magical. Indeed they very much are. But they are not in posession of, carry or otherwise have a Magic Item.

EvC
22-11-2006, 16:57
3) The final statement in the rule clearly states the limitations of the spell:
"The LOG has no effect on a unit that does not include any models with magic items"

The word 'carry' or 'carried' is not used. The converse (which logically applies to any rule) of statement (3) is "The LOG has an effect on a unit that does include any models with magic items"

Retake your logic classes. A [useless magic item, spell or anything meaningless] has no effect on any models without magic items as well, but that doesn't mean it does affect models with magic items...

TheWarSmith
22-11-2006, 17:27
Just because an item causes magic attacks does not make it magic itself.

I don't think too many people are calling ratling guns magic items

Mephistofeles
22-11-2006, 18:27
No but the addition of a Rune upon a weapon makes it a "magic item" right? Per that definition the warmachine would, as it is "equipped" with a rune, become a magical item, although as it is no item, it cannot be a magical item.

A rune is not a magical item. The object of it's posistioning is. Since the Warmachine is not an item, it becomes a "magical war machine", and not a "magical item".

Am I correct?

DeathlessDraich
22-11-2006, 19:20
Retake your logic classes. A [useless magic item, spell or anything meaningless] has no effect on any models without magic items as well, but that doesn't mean it does affect models with magic items...

Read it in the context it is written and write the sentence in converse again.

TheWarSmith
22-11-2006, 19:31
No, a rune doesn't make the item magic, it only makes the attacks magical.

DeathlessDraich
22-11-2006, 19:39
I don't quite follow you WarSmith
pg 43 Dwarves: "Runic magic items are effectively magic items ....etc"

TheWarSmith
22-11-2006, 19:47
Hmmmm, that sentence would seem to apply to warmachines too, so I admit I might be wrong.

If the warmachine is a "magic item", i'd rule that law of gold would work.

Morgrin
22-11-2006, 20:05
Have ye lost yer bleedin' minds?

A war machine with a rune is still a bloody war machine. Just as a sword with a rune on it is still a hand weapon.

Thargrund
22-11-2006, 20:08
yeah, i cant see you getting round the rules that easily :)

then again you could say that in the case of a bolt thrower its the bolts that are magical and they are carried by the warmachine - but then that is just being a bit silly :p

WLBjork
22-11-2006, 20:45
That's why I highlighted the latter part of the sentence - a Runed War Machine isn't carried by a model - it is the model :D

Mephistofeles
23-11-2006, 07:01
A runic warmachine is a magical warmachine. Nothing else. If you get a spell which affects "Magic Models" and not "magic items", then it can be used against it...

Seems likely ey? :P

T10
23-11-2006, 11:50
The question has not been examined sufficiently.
There are 3 areas which need to be looked at carefully


Yes, or it will explode! :)

-T10

intellectawe
23-11-2006, 16:37
this thread made my head asplode.

Warmachines are not carried by any single model. Law of GOld does not bother runic warmachines.

simple? I think....

DeathlessDraich
23-11-2006, 16:49
this thread made my head asplode.

Warmachines are not carried by any single model. Law of GOld does not bother runic warmachines.

simple? I think....

1) The machine itself is a model by definition and does not have to be carried. Once runes are added to the machine, it becomes a model possessing a magic item by defintion of magical runes - dwarves pg45

2) You're right LOG does not 'bother' a warmachine it is cast as a spell on the unit.:angel: :p

NakedFisherman
23-11-2006, 16:56
A war machine is a model in a unit.

Of course it doesn't literally 'carry' magic 'items', but it works the same way as other magic items. I'd just let Law of Gold destroy it...maybe?

Wings of Doom
23-11-2006, 17:26
A war machine with a rune is still a bloody war machine. Just as a sword with a rune on it is still a hand weapon.

Actaully, AFAIK, a sword with a rune on it is NOT a handweapon unless the rune is removed/it has the rune of "This couts as whatever it was before I put a rune on it", seeing as when you put a rune on a weapon it loses allbonus' it would have otherwise given (in the case of a handweapon, the parry bonus).
As it says in the dwarf book that runes are treated as magic items, I would say that the war machine loses the effect of that rune, just as if you took a dwarf lord with a great weapon with a rune and cast the spell on him, the magic item (the rune) wouldn't be able to be used again, but the great weapon would be fine (it not actually being the magic item (the rune)).
Well... that may not be exactly RAW but to me seems to be the logical way to go about it (but whoever thought GW was logical?).

intellectawe
23-11-2006, 20:53
1) The machine itself is a model by definition and does not have to be carried. Once runes are added to the machine, it becomes a model possessing a magic item by defintion of magical runes - dwarves pg45

2) You're right LOG does not 'bother' a warmachine it is cast as a spell on the unit.:angel: :p

GW rules are read RAW. THis is from GW themselves.

No model carries a warmachine. A warmachine isn't a magical item, it is a single model called a warmachine.

Metal Lore has a spell to deal with warmachines specifically. Law of Gold isn't it.

eldrak
23-11-2006, 23:15
It is important to remember that a runic item is no different in principle to any other magic item, and all the usual rules for magic items still apply.


Magic items can be carried by characters and ...
(no mention of warmachines but they generally try to avoid specific rules that only have effect on one army)

The warmachine model carries the engineering runes. If you LOG them it will become a normal warmachine as i interpret it. If you want to say that the warmachine model doesn't carry the item because the text says they are "inscribed" then you can't nullify magic armours as characters "wear" them.

intellectawe
24-11-2006, 03:28
Warmachine can't carry it's runes. A warmachine isn't even a character by your second quote.

Metal Lore has a spell to deal with Warmachines. Law of gold isn't it.

Falkman
24-11-2006, 09:14
Warmachine can't carry it's runes. A warmachine isn't even a character by your second quote.

Metal Lore has a spell to deal with Warmachines. Law of gold isn't it.
A War machine is inscribed with runes, hence it is "carrying" or "wearing" them.
If LOGing a War machine, those runes will be destroyed, and the war machine will work as a mundane war machine again.
How is this hard to understand, it's right in the rules, crystal clear.
A Sorcerer doesn't "carry" his spell familiar either, doesn't mean it's not a magic item and it can't be destroyed.

intellectawe
25-11-2006, 03:41
As per Law of Gold...

A warmachine unit is not a unit which carries any magical items. Calling a rune 'carried' is just an attempt bend language to suit your needs.

A warmachine still does not carry ANY magical item. A rune isn't a magical item, it is a rune.

JonnyTHM
25-11-2006, 04:27
"The LOG has no effect on a unit that does not include any models with magic items"

The word 'carry' or 'carried' is not used. The converse (which logically applies to any rule) of statement (3) is "The LOG has an effect on a unit that does include any models with magic items"

Right, if you want to go down the 'logic' route:

1) The converse of a statement is not necessarily true.

2) Your logic is (correct me if I'm wrong)

You've taken the original statement as:
"IF the unit does not include any models with magic items THEN the law of gold doesn't affect it"

The converse of this statement is:
"IF the law of gold doesn't affect it THEN the unit doesn't include any models with magic items."

you then negate this (reversing the order as is correct) to get

"If the unit contains any models with magic items THEN the law of gold affects it."

3) So, then your argument falls apart where you've taken the converse of the 1st statement to be true.

(after this the logic is indeed correct)

Examples of converses of rules not being true:

If you stole a car then you've commited a crime
converse:
If you've commited a crime then you've stolen a car.

or more pertinent:

If you are 8 feet tall THEN you're taller than me
Converse:
If you're taller than me THEN you are 8 feet tall.

In your taking the converse to be true you've already assumed that there's no such thing as a magic item that isn't affected by LOG.

DeathlessDraich
25-11-2006, 10:02
"IF the unit does not include any models with magic items THEN the law of gold doesn't affect it"


1. 'THEN' is in the wrong place. In fact there is no 'then' in the statements I used.

2. The statements can be broken down to the form of a syllogism. If you do so, I think you'll find my conclusions holds true. I think you did try to put your argument syllogistically but it seems you've attributed elements of the infamous 'some error' to the statements when they are invariant in this respect.

JonnyTHM
25-11-2006, 11:16
(I'll just move this to PMs so as to avoid thread hijacking.)

Hopefully we can come back with a final ruling on the logic used that we can both agree upon.

eldrak
25-11-2006, 15:29
intellectave: care to back up what you are saying with some rules quotations?

As far as i can see each of your statements in your last post is wrong.

WLBjork
25-11-2006, 17:18
Depend precisely how you interpet it.

Applying runes to anything makes the item the rune is applied to (effectively) a magic item.

However, as the runes are being applied to the Warmachine, the model itself becomes a magic item - it is not a magic item carried by a model.

Edit: I think what intellectawe was trying to say is that runes themselves are not magic items.

DeathlessDraich
26-11-2006, 09:37
However, as the runes are being applied to the Warmachine, the model itself becomes a magic item - it is not a magic item carried by a model.
.

LOG affects the magic item itself and not the model 'carrying'/possessing it.

Festus
26-11-2006, 09:40
Hi

Applying runes to anything makes the item the rune is applied to (effectively) a magic item.

no: Applying runes to a mundane item makes the item a Magic Item. A WarMachine is not an Item. Items are Standards, Talismans, Weapons, Pieces of Armour, all things that can be carried by a Dwarf...

Festus

Falkman
26-11-2006, 13:10
Dwarf book p.43:

Creating a Runic item
Runes can be inscribed onto any of the following things:
weapons, armour, standards, war machines and talismans.
Each of these has its own type of runes.


Right there, it says creating a runic item and then mentions war machines right under it, that should be proof enough that war machines either themselves are runic items, or at least carry them.

EvC
26-11-2006, 19:33
If you're going to make a quote to provide evidence, you might as well post all relevant quotes, as there is nothing whatsoever in that quote that tells us that anything inscribed with a rune is a magic item, or how a runic item should be considered.

intellectawe
27-11-2006, 04:25
Dwarf book p.43:

Creating a Runic item
Runes can be inscribed onto any of the following things:
weapons, armour, standards, war machines and talismans.
Each of these has its own type of runes.


Right there, it says creating a runic item and then mentions war machines right under it, that should be proof enough that war machines either themselves are runic items, or at least carry them.

Yes, the warmachine is a runicitem/warmachine, but no one carries it. Who carries it?

Adept
27-11-2006, 05:03
Hi

no: Applying runes to a mundane item makes the item a Magic Item. A WarMachine is not an Item.

Right.

And a runic sword is a sword, not an item.

And a runic suit of armour is a suit of armour, not an item.

I think you are erroneously defining 'item' as 'piece of equipment bought for a character or unit from that character or units entry in the army list'.

However, the rule does stipulate that the item (in this case a Warmachine) must be carried by another model, which isn't the case here. It's not a rigorous defence, as Draich noted, but it stands.