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Forbiddenknowledge
23-11-2006, 11:29
I watched a game on monday, between Dwarfs and Orcs. There were three games, and the orcs were beaten in the 2nd turn by the dwarfs. How? I hear you cry?


Anvil of Doom, and a ranger unit, and a miner unit.

Thanks to special deployment and unstoppable Anvil, both these 20 strong units were able to pull off rear charges, while the rest of the army was being shot up by the dwarfs huddled as far away as possible in the corner.

Each time, Orcs beaten on turn 2.

Now, I have seen this against Daemonic Legion as well, and Tomb Kings, and my Wood Elves. I am the only one to have survived it, mainly because I didn't have 2000 points so he could not take the anvil to magic move his men, when they appeared I was able to hit them with my dryads.

No one at my club can stop this tactic, so, is this beardy, or am I over-reacting?

scuddman
23-11-2006, 11:38
It's not that bad. Deployment is the issue. You need to deploy so Rangers don't get the best spot. Having your own scouts helps alot in this department. If you don't, deploy for it. Miners still have to show up on turn 2 with a roll, which they might not make. Even if they do, they have a short charge range. 6" isn't that good.

Automatic moves are just something you factor in. You don't park yourself right outside an orc's charge range because he can call wagh and get in. You also still get a charge reaction.

On top of that, the anvil in not unstoppable. The runelord can't strike any runes while the anvil is in close combat, so do your best to threaten the anvil or tie it up. A lot of people say that the anvil can stop fliers. That's true, but if the anvil is stopping fliers, things aren't magic moving in.

Thargrund
23-11-2006, 12:04
hi,

well yes this is a good tactic, rather boring imo, but for every tactic there is a counter tactic ................. just i havent figured out that part yet :). ill see what i can think of and if i can think of anythign good ill le you know.

(p.s i suppose you could just keep a cavalyr yinit ready to meet the miners / be a deterrent fo rthem coming on at a particular pat of the table)

Griefbringer
23-11-2006, 12:04
Anvil of Doom, and a ranger unit, and a miner unit.

Thanks to special deployment and unstoppable Anvil, both these 20 strong units were able to pull off rear charges

If somebody lets a unit of rangers pull a rear charge on them on turn 2, then that person might need to consider a bit about how to deploy and move his units, and how to protect their vulnerable parts.

And there are only so many places a unit of rangers can hide in.

Forbiddenknowledge
23-11-2006, 12:32
I think its the miners that get the rear charge, the rangers get the flank charge usually. So far, this has whomped everyone at club but me, and thats only because I havn't got 2k so he can't use the anvil.

der_lex
23-11-2006, 12:34
I've played against an army that used that tactic as well, but it didn't bother me too much. Then again, I did have a hungry Hellcannon waiting for the miners when they popped up...

Leaving a small screen for your warmachines behind should help. If they survive the first charge, they can take out the miner unit.

Better deployment and shooting should help against the rangers, who aren't that tough to begin with...

Finn Sourscowl
23-11-2006, 13:17
Well every game I've played using Rangers, they ended up in my deployment zone cause there wasn't any terrain large enough to set up a 15 strong regiment out of my opponents LOS. So if your friend has managed to pull that off in every game, then good luck to him! You'll have to explain how he managed to get the rangers into a postion to pull off a rear charge on turn 2 to me. I don't get that at all.

Also, to get two charges with the Anvil in one turn requires that a) the dwarf player uses ancient power (so only works on a 4+) and b) then roles a 3+ for the number of units he can move. Rather a lot of luck there.

This whole thing about the Anvil being the most powerful thing ever just doesn't add up in my mind. I haven't used it extensively (I prefer a dwarf lord to lead my army... especially in games less than 3k), so I'm going on 15 years of warhammer experiance to assess what I think it'd play like. I can see how it's useful and potentially game winning, don't get me wrong. It just seems to rely too much on luck to be truely awe-inspiring. Any opponent worth their salt should be able to deal with it with a little fore-thought. It's like ambushing beastmen or Gutter runner tunnelling teams or "it came from below" Tomb spiders or gorgers... they all get you the first time and then you learn to prepare for it.

Just my opinion.

Good luck when you do have enough models to face him!

Griefbringer
23-11-2006, 13:42
Indeed, if there is enough terrain to let the rangers have plenty of choices for deployment, then the terrain itself might also give some protection for the greenskins from dwarven shooting (unless it slows them down and bunches them up too badly).

As for the miners, having a night goblin welcome committee (with a couple of fanatics ready to go and hug them) should make them think twice about where to appear - though the fanatics might backfire and whack more than just the miners themselves. Same thing could be considered with the rangers - if you can predict a possible place for rangers to deploy, place some night goblins close by. Just the possibility that they might have fanatics might be a bit too much for the rangers to bear.

Forbiddenknowledge
23-11-2006, 14:05
Plus, the bloody thing only ever miscasts on a 1, so even if it doesn't go off on ancient power, no problems.

Even when I have enough, I think these damn first/second turn charges won't be a problem as such, as most of my elves are MSU, and halfway across the board before they turn up.

I have to admit, the main thing that gets people, is the miners. They turn up behind, charge with great weapons. He gets sod all attacks back, no ranks, and the dwarf player has a static res of 7!! he easily takes out a unit, and if you turn to fight them off, the multiple organ guns destroy you, or, you ignore them, and the miners get you.

Its so damn effective, but the anvil just makes it too beardy, as its unstoppable, and only ever fails on a bloody 1.

I know, I sound like an idiot, moaning, but seriously, I can't see anyway to not get beaten on turn 2...

Griefbringer
23-11-2006, 14:15
he easily takes out a unit, and if you turn to fight them off, the multiple organ guns destroy you, or, you ignore them, and the miners get you.


The multiple organ guns are only an issue if one advances within their range - it is always possible to just hang back and wait until the miners pop up and butcher them before going to face it up with the rest of the enemy.

Arhalien
23-11-2006, 14:18
The multiple organ guns are only an issue if one advances within their range - it is always possible to just hang back and wait until the miners pop up and butcher them before going to face it up with the rest of the enemy.

24" range. That's hanging back a long way.

kermit
23-11-2006, 14:22
I don't mean to derail this, but I am looking to put an army like this together... could you possibly give an overview of what else was in this army?

I just want to surprise my local players with an army like that at the championships. Just so you know, I will play it once, then go back to my normal army!

Playing from the otherside. My big concern is not getting first turn and Brettonians. They are very quick and if I don't get first turn, then can be on me in the second turn and there really isn't much I can do about it, other than hope I don't lose too much.

Forbiddenknowledge
23-11-2006, 14:40
There typically is:
Runelord + Anvil
Couple of 20 strong warriors
2 Organ guns
20 Rangers
20 Miners


Unless its tournemant, I reccommend against this, as I know I for one prob won't play it at 2k, as there simply is no way of beating it. The anvil is just overpowered, barely miscasts, if ever, even on ancient power, and can't be stopped.

Finn Sourscowl
23-11-2006, 14:49
There typically is:
Runelord + Anvil
Couple of 20 strong warriors
2 Organ guns
20 Rangers
20 Miners


Unless its tournemant, I reccommend against this, as I know I for one prob won't play it at 2k, as there simply is no way of beating it. The anvil is just overpowered, barely miscasts, if ever, even on ancient power, and can't be stopped.

Of course it can be beaten. And pretty easily too, by many armies. 2 units of 20 warriors can't defend themselves really against flank attacks etc. Your wood elves would have a field day against them. The miners would be totally useless, you can send your warhawks to deal with the organ guns and/or runelord on turn 2 and at least tie him up. The rangers would get eaten by flanking dryads and wardaners on the way over. Dwarfs really need a solid line with units that can defend their flanks (or the clever use of scenary). That army would be outmanouvered, flanked and destroyed.

One other thing to consider about that army: The Runelord and anvil are worth over a 1/4 of the entire value. Kill them, and you've already got a massive VP total in the bag.

Also, the anvil can only be used if the runelord isn't in combat. Many armies have units that could theortically tie him up for a turn or 2 from Turn 2 (if you see what I mean!), fliers etc., giving you another turn to run across the board away from where his miners will turn up, preferably leaving a unit of NGs with fanatics to welcome him (or a large unit of slaves to tie him up... facing towards where he'll arrive from) or whatever.

Also, the tactic with the miners only works if there's something in your opponents deployment zone to charge. If you're fighty orcs, then you'll probably be wanting to run at the enemy anyway, so deploy right on the edge of your deployment zone (so that's 12" and move your full 8" on the first turn. This'll leave you out of the range of the miners when they arrive and allow you a turn to come up with something to deal with them. This is even easier if you get the first turn 'cause most of your army should be miles ahead by the time they arrive!

Staying out of range of the 2 organ guns he has (assuming he has no gyro's) shouldn't be too hard, or staying out of their LOS anyway, especially if there's a lot of terrain, which apparently there must be to allow the rangers to deploy in a dangerous position AND charge on turn 2.

I appreciate that rear charging miners is really annoying (to put it mildly), but I honestly think that if you stepped back and thought about it a bit, you'd see that a dwarf army with an Anvil isn't the all-powerful killer army you may think it is.

Forbiddenknowledge
23-11-2006, 14:51
So far, all I have seen is it take down 2k of daemonic legion in 3 turns, and an orc army down in 2 turns. With virtually no loss - maybe 50 points loss each time.... and these ain't noob players, these are experienced, like 10 years.

Maybe if the anvil miscast more, it might not be a problem.

It's not such a problem for my woodies, as everything nearly is skirmishes, if he charges me, well, bring it on. My dryads stomped his rangers last time, and wardancers are no slouch :)

der_lex
23-11-2006, 14:53
There typically is:
Runelord + Anvil
Couple of 20 strong warriors
2 Organ guns
20 Rangers
20 Miners


Unless its tournemant, I reccommend against this, as I know I for one prob won't play it at 2k, as there simply is no way of beating it. The anvil is just overpowered, barely miscasts, if ever, even on ancient power, and can't be stopped.

Every army can be beaten. I've faced a similar army myself on several occasions (sans the organ guns, but with ironbreakers and hammerers instead) with different Chaos lists (Tzeentch, Slaanesh and Khorne) and only lost a single game. If the anvil is such a problem, take a couple of units specifically for destroying it (ie flyers and other war machine hunters). He can kill one or two units with shooting (unless you can kill the war machine crew with shooting first), but a third will get through. Stone throwers are also wonderful against a stationary unit like the Anvil.

Griefbringer
23-11-2006, 15:14
24" range. That's hanging back a long way.

Yes, but there should normally be at least 24" between the deployment zones, and if you are facing (as original poster wrote) "dwarfs huddled as far away as possible in the corner" then that could be 6" or so more between them.

And if the dwarves do not pack cannons, stone/bolt throwers or crossbows, then it would be possible to just stay out of the range of the organ guns for the whole game and just bombard the dwarves with artillery of your own.

Shimmergloom
23-11-2006, 15:56
As an orc and goblin player I was thinking of ways that the greenskin player could face that dwarf army without dying on turn 2.

I guess the biggest way would be to counter the dwarf's magic with greenskin magic.

Goblin shamans have 5 good spells for the anvil. 2 are magic missles to just shoot at the anvil if you can see it. 1 is gork'll fix it, which you still need LOS on. But if you get it off on the anvil, he'll have any 6's he rolls for his anvil power, become 1's. So instead of having a 50% chance of getting ancient power off, he only has a 33% chance of getting ancient power off. And further, if he misfires he'll now have a 33% chance of the anvil exploding. It'll explode on a 6 or a 1 roll.

Next we have the big spell. Foot of gork. You don't need LOS and it can be targeted at anything on the table.

You can also tell him to be gutsy with one of his shamans(I'd take 3 shamans vs that army). Give a gobbo shaman the madd maap and let him be a scout. Hope you win the scout roll-off and get the good ranger spot with your shaman scout.

You'll be much closer for range spells and help counteract his rangers deployment.

Other than magic, use savages and other units that are immune to psyche to counter his shooting.

Heck you could even try 2 base snotling units sitting behind your big units that you are afraid that miners might show up and charge.

Gimp
23-11-2006, 16:17
I take it you play Wood Elves.

In that case take some Waywatchers ans see if you can killing blow the rune lord. It would be real funny.

Mephistofeles
23-11-2006, 16:33
Can you destroy the Anvil itself, say with cannon-fire? Is it "woundable" so as to speak?

Rowenstin
23-11-2006, 17:06
Can you destroy the Anvil itself, say with cannon-fire? Is it "woundable" so as to speak?

No, it can't be destroyed -or even hit, IIRC- The runelord and anvil guardians are hit instead. It's more like terrain.

Michaelius
23-11-2006, 17:22
I take it you play Wood Elves.

In that case take some Waywatchers ans see if you can killing blow the rune lord. It would be real funny.


That's why smart dwarfs always take this little immune to poison and insta-kills rune ;)

punkoteloco
23-11-2006, 18:11
I´ve played against a dwarf army with the anvil. yes, it works really good, but i mean, without offending dwarf players outthere, what else do they have if they put the anvil??? I play sakven, i use dices a lot, and i depend on dices. If they dont work correctly, man, ill have to pull every trick i have from my hat to try to win. That dwarf tactic depends a lot on dices too. If the miners do not show up on time, im pretty sure that tactic is screwed. I must say, the anvil is a pain in the a**, but it wont win games by itself. I think the anvil is ok for Dwarfs, they needed something to advance.

Just my thoughts

punkoteloco

Atzcapotzalco
23-11-2006, 20:27
The anvil is invulnerable-in close combat you fight the runelord+anvil guards, shooting attacks are randomized between them with a 4+ ward save granted for the chance of shots hitting the anvil. A cannon would, therefore, have a decent chance at killing the runelord. The big flaw in this is that since none of the anvil's powers require LOS, it has no reason to be standing where a cannon can see it.
On the general topic, that is a very beatable army. Yes the extra movement is helpful but it's only 6", so miners still have a very limited range of what they will be able to attack. 2 organ guns isn't army-killing shooting, and there is barely a handful of combat units to take care of. Even if the miners do kill one unit in pursuing it they lose their position to do the same to any other unit in the army, and are completely unsupported. One unit is rarely a game-winning difference.

In answer to the question of what a dwarf army could take instead-a lot. A *basic* runelord+anvil, with no additional runes,is equivalent in both points and army slots to a lord and a hero, assuming the lord has his full runic items allowance. Said anvil is completely immobile, and may never join a unit, therefore can never support your troops in combat, and can't fight particularly well when attacked. So compared to alternative character choices, you give up the fighting abilities of a dwarf lord *with* full runic allotment(still cheaper than the anvil), the extra leadership of a lord general, and an additional fighting thane to support your troops. Also equivalent in points terms is a 20-strong unit of ironbreakers with full command, or therefore by extension a similar unit of anything else with points to spare. Or those 2 organ guns which have everybody so scared, with an extra bolt thrower added in to even things out. Or 3 stone throwers/cannons with engineers.

intellectawe
23-11-2006, 21:08
The Anvil is only unbeatable by people who don't know how to deal with it. After a bunch of games, if you learn from your mistakes, you will be able to beat an anvil easy.

I just cant believe people still cry cheese over the anvil. At least the dwarf army list isn't as over powered as other entire armies. dwarves have one good unit in its arsenal to make it competitive, but every time we use it, cheese is cried. Please, I don't tell people who play skaven/lizardmen armies not to use models which I consider over powered because they wouldn't put ONE model on the board.

I run a Thordek Anvil list, and yes, I blew my anvil apart. It happens.

If you want to beat an anvil list, do the same thing the anvil does to you, attack it with a reserve unit or something along those lines.

Forbiddenknowledge
24-11-2006, 09:27
I'm trying not to cry cheese at the anvil, which is difficult (Something with these kinds of bonus', which, in the game virtually never miscasts and can't be stopped) and the combo of rangers and miners, just seems a bit much.

eldrak
24-11-2006, 10:24
Still he can only charge with one of the units (miners/rangers) on turn 2 unless he uses ancient power and then there's a 50% chance of miscast. Remember that he can't march with the miners the turn they come in on the table or most often not march with the rangers trough the terrain they've deployed behind.

I think his army looks to be on the weaker side, it's not so hard to stay 13" away from any board edge or 12" away from the rangers.

Forbiddenknowledge
24-11-2006, 10:38
50%? I thought it only miscast on a 1, even on ancient power...

Finn Sourscowl
24-11-2006, 11:22
50%? I thought it only miscast on a 1, even on ancient power...

If that's what you thought, then your hatred of the Anvil is understandable! However, Ancient power only works on a 4+. Normal power is a 2+. This means that if you've seen someone casting ancient power on a 2+ they were cheating...

Forbiddenknowledge
24-11-2006, 11:27
No, I know ancient power is 4+, there was no "ancient power on 2+" happening, i was referring to even when it fails to go off, it rarely does anything. And even when he ancients, miscasts on a 1, all that happens is it doesn't fire next turn. Big deal.

Finn Sourscowl
24-11-2006, 11:35
No, I know ancient power is 4+, there was no "ancient power on 2+" happening, i was referring to even when it fails to go off, it rarely does anything. And even when he ancients, miscasts on a 1, all that happens is it doesn't fire next turn. Big deal.

It's a massive deal! That's at least 400 points of character that can do nothing for a turn. The equivilent of preventing 4 cannons from firing. Or your Über-hard cavlery regiment led by a tooled up lord from moving. It gives the opponent an extra turn to get into close combat with it and thus neutrilise it for another turn. I really wouldn't use ancient power unless it was that or lose. It's far too luck-based.

When you have enough points to play him, do so. As you've said yourself in this thread, you'd expect to win cause you can simply out manouver him! Miners are only ever useful if there's something left in your deployment zone for them to charge. This really shouldn't be a problem for your woodies.

Good luck!

Kraal_Lord_Of_Blood
24-11-2006, 12:03
ill just say this: ambushing beast herds!

Forbiddenknowledge
24-11-2006, 12:20
I'm thinking either my warhawks, when I get them, or my waywatchers, or hell, my wardancers with lord.

He should be toast, as the anvil won't be as helpful to him in charging my men, I'm hoping the best he'll achieve is two units sitting in my DZ, once I finish the rest of the army, I can come back for them. Or set dryads on them :)

Chiron
24-11-2006, 12:23
mmm... tomb scorpions and swarms

Dorn
24-11-2006, 12:27
thunderers...... *shudders*

anyway the anvil caused big problems at a recent 'big game' we did. The dwarves had 6 of them. And a hall of fame unit full of special characters. this unit danced around the board 30" or so a turn, killing everything.

Ridiculous.

heretics bane
24-11-2006, 12:31
for a start shooting it will probably not work as whos going to leave 505pts out in the open!? its most likly surronded by other units and behind terrainif your playing woodies just get a big unit of wild riders some waywatchers and that should distarct him becuase one flank will be under threat will him having to try and defen the anvil.

Forbiddenknowledge
24-11-2006, 12:38
See if I can convine him to deploy it in a forest..... MWAHAHAHA

Finn Sourscowl
24-11-2006, 13:11
See if I can convine him to deploy it in a forest..... MWAHAHAHA

"Hey Thori... are those trees alive??"

"what do you mean, alive... AARRRRGGGGHHHH"

*munch munch*

Snotteef
24-11-2006, 13:26
Where were the Orc player's fast cavalry and warmachines? At 2000 points my Orcs and Gobbos have 3 units of fast cav, two spear chukkas, a Rock lobba and a Doom Diver. Honestly, I don't see the problem here. High tail it toward the dwarf line and the miners would have to be mighty lucky to get that rear charge. Keep a NG unit with a fanatic on each flank and Rangers are going to have a difficult time getting a successful charge (and if they do, their #'s will be depleted and they are wasting their time trying to kill NG's). Send the fast cav up to kill the Organ guns (he can only kill 2 of the units, so as long as animosity doesn't screw you, they should toast it) and not only divert fire from your main line, but stand a good chance of tying up or killing the crew.

WLBjork
24-11-2006, 13:47
No, I know ancient power is 4+, there was no "ancient power on 2+" happening, i was referring to even when it fails to go off, it rarely does anything. And even when he ancients, miscasts on a 1, all that happens is it doesn't fire next turn. Big deal.

Make sure that when he fails, he rolls to see what happens as he is supposed to. Every time I take mine it kills itself by the end of the game.

Forbiddenknowledge
24-11-2006, 14:24
When he "fails?" I thought it was only on a 1?

Finn Sourscowl
24-11-2006, 14:35
It only blows up on a role of 1 on the misfire table. I can't remember the other catagories off the top of my head, though. But it misfires on a role of 1 if cast with normal power, or 1,2 or 3 if cast with Ancient power.

So proceedure for use of anvil:

1)declare which rune and at which strength (ancient or normal)

2) if normal, requires 2+ on a D6 to work. If ancient, requires 4+ to work.

3) if the role fails, role on the misfire chart.

4) if works on normal power, declare targets etc...
if works on ancient power, role D3 for number of units effected (if using the movement or attacking runes).

I think that's right... it's off the top of my head :)

Forbiddenknowledge
24-11-2006, 14:49
Oh, I thought it was only miscast on a 1.... this makes it more bearable :)

Nkari
24-11-2006, 20:54
Who cares about 2 organ guns ? Are your boys squads so ******* small that they care about 2 artillery dices worth of str 5 shots ? *shrugs* and wtf are you still doing in your deployment zone by turn 2 ? And im assuming you can flee from the anvils magical charge, if thats the case.. do it.. he wont catch ya.. And last but not least, how the heck can he hide a regiment from a competent player ? Dont you have _any_ small cheap units, or units that see 360 degrees ?

forthegloryofkazadekrund
25-11-2006, 08:48
hey peeps
the army as i can remember is

rune lord with master rune of balance, gromril armour, hand weapon
anvil of doom

hero - gromril armour, shield, rune of brotherhood, axe with +1 to hit and +1 st (goes with the miners)

20 clansmen - hvy armour, shield, fc
20 clansmen - hvy armour, shield, fc
20 rangers - crossbows, shields, fc

20 iron breakers - fc
organ gun
organ gun
19 miners - fc, rock drill

all but the miners and the rangers deploy in a corner protecting thier flanks by the board edges
the normal deployment is

clansmen organ iron organ clansmen
rune
but in more of an oval shape

gortexgunnerson
25-11-2006, 12:40
Who cares about 2 organ guns ? Are your boys squads so ******* small that they care about 2 artillery dices worth of str 5 shots ? *shrugs* and wtf are you still doing in your deployment zone by turn 2 ? And im assuming you can flee from the anvils magical charge, if thats the case.. do it.. he wont catch ya.. And last but not least, how the heck can he hide a regiment from a competent player ? Dont you have _any_ small cheap units, or units that see 360 degrees ?

Im glad someone else has the idea of moving their troops! even with 2 moves miners have 12" move even my dwarfs have moved out of my deployment zone by turn 1. And if he wants to kill my artillery and missile troops its no different to gutter runners or tomb scorpions, if anything it is far less reliable. I have faced the anvil army once with my dwarfs and massacred it. It got 2 runes off then I engagaed it with my miners and it did nothing for the rest of the game whilst I wipped his army out my Lord lead 1900 verisis his 1500 points.

Thorek has his uses and some nasty surprises but he isnt undefeatable by a long shot. And like some one mentioned why not just flee with your units if charged Dwarfs charge 6" they couldnt catch a fleeing unit in a month of sundays. And Rangers with Crossbows!!!! Are about one of the most over priced useless units in the game. You just shouldnt be albe to put a ranked up unit out of line of sight any where useful on the board except in a wood. and now rangers dont move through woods freely its 1.5" move (no march half move) a turn til the back model gets out. Assuming 2" in to avoid being seen and a ranked unit of 20, it will take 5 turns to leave the wood.

I think the advince to your club mates is to deploy their armies correctly. position units to stop his rangers from deploying. Move units out of their own depolyment zone. All else falls speed bump them.

Or if feeling particularly petty take a unit of 72 goblins for 210 points or so and deploy them in a line across the bank of the board preventing the miners from entering the board! I think this is a good idea just to see the look on his face!

intellectawe
27-11-2006, 04:29
Anvil is far from over powered. Many armies have their "super warmachine of doom". I believe the anvil is the only one that can blow itself up and/or become so useless so easy. I am not familiar with the screaming bell or cauldron of blood, but if you want powerful, check out the casket of souls.

Atzcapotzalco
27-11-2006, 11:56
Or if feeling particularly petty take a unit of 72 goblins for 210 points or so and deploy them in a line across the bank of the board preventing the miners from entering the board! I think this is a good idea just to see the look on his face!

Enter from *any* table edge, fortunately, but this would still work for protecting against a rear charge. That said, I'd estimate the miners to be a lot more dangerous coming on from a flank where the rest of the army can support them than on a lone suicide mission against your entire army with everyone else except the rangers holed up in a corner somewhere

Adept
27-11-2006, 12:42
if you want powerful, check out the casket of souls.

The difference being that an opponent can dispell the Casket.

intellectawe
27-11-2006, 13:32
The difference being that an opponent can dispell the Casket.

of course they can.

samw
27-11-2006, 17:48
of course they can.

And they can't dispel the anvil I think was the point.

Latro
27-11-2006, 18:49
And they can't dispel the anvil I think was the point.

Well of course they can't.

:D

Dub1200
27-11-2006, 19:13
Are there any rules for Miners popping up? I mean can they show up turn one on a 4+? or is there a min distance between them and the enemy?

Latro
27-11-2006, 19:23
They can show up on turn two at the earliest ... on a roll of a 4+, with re-roll if they have the right equipment. If they turn up you can pick a spot on any table-edge for them to appear. If they don't turn up, the roll get's +1 each following turn ... a one always fails.

intellectawe
27-11-2006, 20:30
And they can't dispel the anvil I think was the point.

And the casket doesn't make itself worthless on a 1,2,or 3 when using its ability does it?

The casket forces your opponent to waste dispel scrolls and dice, so you can get your Tomb King incantations off easier.

The Anvil has more disadvantages than the casket by far. The Anvil is far from over powered.

T10
27-11-2006, 20:37
I'm with the majority here - the Dwarf army *can* be beaten. I won't say it's hard or that it's easy, only that it won't be fun.

The first requirement is that you see the trick coming. If you think you're fighting a "regular" Dwarf army (e.g. a mix of ranged and close combat unit) then you are in for a surprise. And surprise is the major advantage that army has.

You can deal with the Rangers through dispersed deployment. By spreading a few units out on the flanks you keep him at arms length, albeit very short 10" arms... Small units of fast cavalry or skirmishers of any size are the most suitable.

The miners are a bit of an issue. Even if they can march onto the table (the rules say no, the Dwarfs might say yes!). I assume the target unit has the option of fleeing, which it should consider in this situation. Thus the Miners need to get very close when entering, or position themselvs in such a manner as to chase the target unit onto the Rangers.

If you can avoid presenting a weak point to the miners you will be in the one of two situations. Either the Miners are stranded in your deployment zone (at which point you should move your army towards the Dwarf line as fast as possible and beat the crap out of him) or your wily opponent will realize his predicament and deploy his Miners to support his main line instead (in which case: see above).

What you may want to do is litter your deployment zone with cheap units to keep the Rangers and Miners occupied while you take on the part of the army that contains the most victory points. Goblin Spear Chuckas draw Scouts and Ambushers like syrup draws flies.

-T10

klinktastic
27-11-2006, 22:50
I agree with T10 on this issue. I think the anvil relies on suprise too much. Have fun finding games with a list that gay. I mean it doesnt take too much skill to use. I mean, take a typical list and win with it. You need to combine strategy and intelligence to win without beardy armies. If you use the anvil too much, people will stop playing you and you can be sure that people talk about you sucking at warhammer behind your back. It happens all the time to this unfluffy and otherwise horrible Tzeenech general at my store. He's basically undefeated in our league, beside a few draws against me. When hes not in the store, everyone rips on him because he uses the lamest **** that doesnt make sense. Just like runic dwarf army with gunpowder weapons. Doesn't make too much sense.

Sedekiel
28-11-2006, 01:47
In my gaming club we have a guy that uses a full gunline list with 2 units of 10thuderers, four master engineers, 5 artillery pieces, small blocks of LB's, rangers, warriors and 2 Gyros. Now this list can march block and bomb the ... out of almost everything. I have never seen anything like it. You say that the Anvil/Rangers/miners combo wins games in turn 2, well how about winning them in turn 1.
There are many players out there who are getting used to dealing with the Anvil. It is a single trick pony. If one thing goes wrong it is good bye life.

My opinion is that you should not fear a Dwarven Army that uses the Anvil...probably you should be more affraid of one that doesnt.

Cheers fdr

intellectawe
28-11-2006, 02:19
In my gaming club we have a guy that uses a full gunline list with 2 units of 10thuderers, four master engineers, 5 artillery pieces, small blocks of LB's, rangers, warriors and 2 Gyros. Now this list can march block and bomb the ... out of almost everything. I have never seen anything like it. You say that the Anvil/Rangers/miners combo wins games in turn 2, well how about winning them in turn 1.
There are many players out there who are getting used to dealing with the Anvil. It is a single trick pony. If one thing goes wrong it is good bye life.

My opinion is that you should not fear a Dwarven Army that uses the Anvil...probably you should be more affraid of one that doesnt.

Cheers fdr

Spoken like a true pro :)

Adept
28-11-2006, 02:34
And the casket doesn't make itself worthless on a 1,2,or 3 when using its ability does it?

Neither does the Anvil, except on Ancient Power.


The casket forces your opponent to waste dispel scrolls and dice, so you can get your Tomb King incantations off easier.

For over 300 points? Thats an expensive way to suck up a scroll or two...

The COS is annoying, not overly powerful, but at least you can do something about it. The biggest advantage the Anvil has is that you can only hope it 'miscasts'. There is no way to stop it from going off.

scatterlaser
28-11-2006, 06:11
The Anvil has more disadvantages than the casket by far. The Anvil is far from over powered.
To be of any use a Casket has to be deployed somewhere most of the enemy army can get LoS to it, and is therefore vulnerable to being jumped on by any number of war machine hunter-type units. It's crewed by a T3 W2 Liche and disintegrates if they're killed. It can be neutralised quite easily with a bit of anti-magic, and is especially vulnerable to magic resistance. To top it off, it's not very impressive against armies with high Ld or armies that can shrug off the casualties. It's basically a very expensive, unreliable war machine that requires a fragile hero to put themselves in harm's way.

An Anvil, on the other hand, doesn't need to worry about LoS or range and so can be deployed very defensively. If something does get into HtH with it, it's Unbreakable and the Runelord can be made very tough to kill. It's less reliable than the Casket in the sense that it isn't always successfully 'cast', but it's more reliable in that it's more likely to actually affect things and is far more controllable. Its effects are also more tactically useful, flexible and potentially a lot more powerful than the Casket's - an unpredictable magic scatter-gun attack is cute, but a magical flank/rear charge, grounded Dragon, or drastically slowed hammer unit is a lot more likely to be game-turning.

To me, a Casket comes across as an expensive, fragile, unreliable war machine in an army that already has another very good one (the Screaming Skull Catapult). It doesn't really add very much to the army that you can't get in other ways - often more cheaply and effectively. I used one for quite a while, but it rarely did that much and was often a liability. An Anvil, on the other hand, gives Dwarves a lot of extra tactical options they otherwise can't get (i.e. very controllable unlimited range movement-affecting abilities), and is far harder to get rid of. Having seen what both of them can do, I'd be far more likely to take an Anvil than a Casket.

(Side note: All of the above applies to a normal Runelord using an Anvil - Thorek is a totally different kettle of fish. A normal Anvil is a powerful but pretty balanced addition to a Dwarf army. Thorek is capable of crippling armies by himself, as well as single-handedly supporting a strong argument against special characters.)

Tulun
28-11-2006, 07:08
I will say that Dwarf special character is nasty, though... 3+ on Ancient power WITH a re-roll if you fail it.

You can open up a can of whoopass. Costs a lot, though.

intellectawe
28-11-2006, 15:11
Scatter laser, you forgot that these super warmachines don't operate in a vacuum.

My friend runs a chariot army. I run a dwarven stationary army.

So I never get to attack his Casket unless I can get my miners to him through reserves.

He can charge me on turn 1 if he wants, but thank god I don't deploy at the 12" line anymore.

So what do I have to charge his casket? A unit of miners.
So what does he have to charge my anvil? His entire army minus one unit of archers.

And I run Thorek.

scatterlaser
28-11-2006, 23:19
So what do I have to charge his casket? A unit of miners.
Those would most likely shred the Casket in one round of combat, provided you don't fail the Miners' Ld9 Terror test. Alternatively, you could just shoot the Liche off the Casket, since if it's actually doing much it'll be somewhere very easy to see. Cannon are especially effective, as the hit isn't randomised (so you can always target the Liche) and he doesn't get a Look Out Sir roll.



So what does he have to charge my anvil? His entire army minus one unit of archers.
Given that your Anvil can be deployed anywhere without regard to LoS or range (ie inside a forest, behind a hill, in the corner behind a screen of Slayers, behind a line of Dwarf infantry blocks, etc), I'd be surprised if anything except tunnelers or summoned troops were getting into HtH with it often. Unless you're using almost no terrain and aren't deploying the Anvil defensively, the only thing Tomb Kings could (sort of) easily get to it with would be Tomb Scorpions. Even those aren't much of a threat to a normal Runelord, since you can throw a cheap Rune of Preservation on him to negate poison and killing blow.

T10
29-11-2006, 15:06
Anvil is far from over powered.

A bold statement. How far from over-powered would you say it is? Six meters? Ten meters? One hundred meters? :)

It's hard to put a points-value on a force-multiplier like this and say "that's it!" Under the right circumstances the anvil can greatly increase the efficiency of friendly units or cripple enemy units. And those circumstances are not hard to establish.

There are complaints that the Anvil cannot be countered. That is true in the traditional context of magic vs. anti-magic, but it is also essentially false. You can very well counter the effects of the Anvil by denying it the strategic and tactical circumstance it requires to bring its force-multiplying effect into play. That, however, is not easy.

You can take the effect of the Anvil into account when setting up your army - I'd say that's where "strategy" comes into play. I hesitate to go into details, but a multiple-small-units approach seems viable. The Anvil will either help bring enemy into contact with your units ("Flee!") or slow down those which have moved into a good tactical position. I can't see anything wrong with countering this by having lots of cheap and preferably fast-moving units.

When playing the game, you need to apply a bit more advanced tactics than just surging ahead to kill some Dwarfs: You need to surge ahead with a plan! Tactically speakinging you need to think an additional move ahead. Any one of those Dwarf units will be able to move some 12" next turn, so you don't want them charging in any direction you can't control them. Also, getting a single unit positioned for a wicked flank attack won't be enough: You'll need three.

You may also want to just move in and put some real pressure on the Dwarfs in order to "trick" them into using the APM (Ancient Power Mode).

Finally, shooting the crap out of the Dwarf units is a good thing. There's a huge difference between being charged by 20 Dwarfs and 10. The Anvil is a force-multiplier, but it's pretty useless when there is no force to multiply:

Big Force x 2 = Really Big Force!
No Force x 2 = Pwnd!

-T10

Maren
29-11-2006, 16:25
Ok guys, people have been going on and of about cheesy units and armies and tactics, cheesy that, cheese of doom that. Well...It does seem like every army has something cheesy in it that makes people cry "NOOB!!!" and "Sir Cheesalot!!". Doesnt that make all armies balanced...?
Well on another point, which army do you find the cheesiest? Just whant to know for fun (i play more wh40k than fantasy) And sorry im posting this here but im not allowed to make my own threads..

Arhalien
29-11-2006, 16:32
I;ve heard that HE cavalry and magic heavy is a nasty army, but I'm sure that there are more cheesy lists out there, just I can't think of any atm.

Dead Dwarf Society
29-11-2006, 16:33
Can you destroy the Anvil itself, say with cannon-fire? Is it "woundable" so as to speak?


You can only destroy the anvil by killing the runelord and the guards.

I presume the Anvil he is using is the special charactor rather than a 'off the shelf' model.

Personally its not that hard an army. March forwards on your first turn to get away from the miners. Use an expendable or unbreakable unit to hold up the rangers. Cheap skirmishers can screen your army from the organ guns. Two organ guns cannot kill that much. Ignore the anvil unless you have chariots. They hurt when they hit home. I had mine killed Iin the GT HT 1 by high elf chariots.

Adept
29-11-2006, 18:55
Scatter laser, you forgot that these super warmachines don't operate in a vacuum.

My friend runs a chariot army. I run a dwarven stationary army.

So I never get to attack his Casket unless I can get my miners to him through reserves.

He can charge me on turn 1 if he wants, but thank god I don't deploy at the 12" line anymore.

So what do I have to charge his casket? A unit of miners.
So what does he have to charge my anvil? His entire army minus one unit of archers.

This doesn't indicate that the anvil is less powerful than the casket. It indicates that your army is poorly set up to counter the casket.


And I run Thorek.

Please don't tell me you think Thorek is a less powerful model than the casket of souls...

T10
29-11-2006, 20:26
Protection against the Casket of Souls? Anything with Magic Resistance should do the trick. Usually your opponent can avoid casting spells at units with Magic Resistance, but in the case of the Casket it affects all that can see it, and you choose what to see it with. :)

The Anvil has the Casket beat fair and square in the UCAoC (Ultimate Character Add-on Championship).

-T10

intellectawe
29-11-2006, 20:48
A bold statement. How far from over-powered would you say it is? Six meters? Ten meters? One hundred meters? :)

It's hard to put a points-value on a force-multiplier like this and say "that's it!" Under the right circumstances the anvil can greatly increase the efficiency of friendly units or cripple enemy units. And those circumstances are not hard to establish.

There are complaints that the Anvil cannot be countered. That is true in the traditional context of magic vs. anti-magic, but it is also essentially false. You can very well counter the effects of the Anvil by denying it the strategic and tactical circumstance it requires to bring its force-multiplying effect into play. That, however, is not easy.

You can take the effect of the Anvil into account when setting up your army - I'd say that's where "strategy" comes into play. I hesitate to go into details, but a multiple-small-units approach seems viable. The Anvil will either help bring enemy into contact with your units ("Flee!") or slow down those which have moved into a good tactical position. I can't see anything wrong with countering this by having lots of cheap and preferably fast-moving units.

When playing the game, you need to apply a bit more advanced tactics than just surging ahead to kill some Dwarfs: You need to surge ahead with a plan! Tactically speakinging you need to think an additional move ahead. Any one of those Dwarf units will be able to move some 12" next turn, so you don't want them charging in any direction you can't control them. Also, getting a single unit positioned for a wicked flank attack won't be enough: You'll need three.

You may also want to just move in and put some real pressure on the Dwarfs in order to "trick" them into using the APM (Ancient Power Mode).

Finally, shooting the crap out of the Dwarf units is a good thing. There's a huge difference between being charged by 20 Dwarfs and 10. The Anvil is a force-multiplier, but it's pretty useless when there is no force to multiply:

Big Force x 2 = Really Big Force!
No Force x 2 = Pwnd!

-T10

The anvil counters itself on a 1 or a 1,2,3. Or did you forget that?

You know, spending 300+ points on a model that does d6 str 4 damage to a unit really isn't over powering.


You can only destroy the anvil by killing the runelord and the guards.

I presume the Anvil he is using is the special charactor rather than a 'off the shelf' model.

Personally its not that hard an army. March forwards on your first turn to get away from the miners. Use an expendable or unbreakable unit to hold up the rangers. Cheap skirmishers can screen your army from the organ guns. Two organ guns cannot kill that much. Ignore the anvil unless you have chariots. They hurt when they hit home. I had mine killed Iin the GT HT 1 by high elf chariots.

Dude, don't bother to actually try to HELP people fight the anvil army. That isn't what the internet is for. You are supposed to just counter arguments that other people make until a moderator steps in and closes the thread.

There will be no advice tactics in here, sorry. It is much easier to type in a complaint than learn how to over come it during a game.

People also tend to forget that now during combat, units fight twice. So now when I fight my opponents, who are normally TK and Orcs, I get my anvil charged by turn three, never afterwards. Sometimes even on turn two. This is due to them hitting my line with their massive movement and breaking right into my anvil.

But why bother talk about tactics on here? Its much easier to just complain.

Lord Anathir
30-11-2006, 02:14
There typically is:
Runelord + Anvil
Couple of 20 strong warriors
2 Organ guns
20 Rangers
20 Miners


Unless its tournemant, I reccommend against this, as I know I for one prob won't play it at 2k, as there simply is no way of beating it. The anvil is just overpowered, barely miscasts, if ever, even on ancient power, and can't be stopped.


i tied that with a balanced all comers high elf army. i only had one lvl4 character. my opponent had ironbreakers instead of a 2nd organ gun.

Lord Anathir
30-11-2006, 02:17
You can only destroy the anvil by killing the runelord and the guards.

I presume the Anvil he is using is the special charactor rather than a 'off the shelf' model.

Personally its not that hard an army. March forwards on your first turn to get away from the miners. Use an expendable or unbreakable unit to hold up the rangers. Cheap skirmishers can screen your army from the organ guns. Two organ guns cannot kill that much. Ignore the anvil unless you have chariots. They hurt when they hit home. I had mine killed Iin the GT HT 1 by high elf chariots.


high elf chariots kiled your anvil? thats pretty sad.

edit: oh..buddy... do me a favour and direct me to part that reads 'high elf unbreakable and cheap skirmisher' section. as you can see not everyone have those options. organ guns put holes in elves no matter how you put it.

the regular anvil isnt too overpower though, i must agree. i thought it was, until i played it 2, tied it once, beat it 2nd time. with a read: balanced army... no 12 power dice that id take to a tourney.

thorek on the other hand is just stupid. special characters shouldnt be allowed at tournies. its just silly.

T10
30-11-2006, 07:43
The anvil counters itself on a 1 or a 1,2,3. Or did you forget that?

You know, spending 300+ points on a model that does d6 str 4 damage to a unit really isn't over powering.


I did not forget. It just wasn't relevant. It's a bit like "countering" cannon fire by hoping the opponent rolls a misfire.

Those S4 hits are one of the options on the Anvil, and in most circumstances not the the most effective. Drawing this forward as the "power" of the Anvil is like looking at the Empire Great Cannon and only seeing the crews' S3 attacks.

-T10

Forbiddenknowledge
30-11-2006, 12:31
True, I have to admit, I havn't played the anvil yet, as I havn't got 2000pts. I was making my "overpowered" assumption based on what it did, combined with the rear charges to Orcs and Daemonic Legion.

And D6 S4 isn't much, until you realise that the units you will have to counter it are stuff like 3 warhawks, 6 glade riders etc.

Based on what people have said here, I am wondering if I was overreacting, but I shall know for certain when I play against it, sometime ages away, though.

Count Zero
30-11-2006, 13:29
the d6 str 4 hits also do half movement so they really slow up your speedy troops, leaving extra time for the handgunners etc to shoot them to pieces.
is it on ancient power that is does it 2d6 str 4 hits on d3 units? thats extremely powerfull when combined with a 'gunline' army. Esp if the dwarf player is using Thorek.
I dont like the argument that it cant be dispelled as dwarfs get no magic as they have such high lvls of dispell dice that i think it rare for magic to work well against them. Yes it might misfire, but i think apart from bolt thowers, so might all other warmachines.

intellectawe
30-11-2006, 13:30
I did not forget. It just wasn't relevant. It's a bit like "countering" cannon fire by hoping the opponent rolls a misfire.

Those S4 hits are one of the options on the Anvil, and in most circumstances not the the most effective. Drawing this forward as the "power" of the Anvil is like looking at the Empire Great Cannon and only seeing the crews' S3 attacks.

-T10

Of course everything concerning a unit is relevant. The anvil is priced according to it's strengths, flaws and how it fits in with the rest of the army. Units don't operate in a vacuum.

The anvil's power has nothing to do with the crew's bs3. The crew of the anvil's bs would be like comparing them to the crew of the cannons bs of 3.


True, I have to admit, I havn't played the anvil yet, as I havn't got 2000pts. I was making my "overpowered" assumption based on what it did, combined with the rear charges to Orcs and Daemonic Legion.

And D6 S4 isn't much, until you realise that the units you will have to counter it are stuff like 3 warhawks, 6 glade riders etc.

Based on what people have said here, I am wondering if I was overreacting, but I shall know for certain when I play against it, sometime ages away, though.

Nah, you are cool bro. You just need to play it yourself. We can chat here for 100 pages, but no amount of talking will give you the DIRECT experience of playing against one.

You weren't overreacting at all. Yes it is true that some units are more effective against other armies, so the unit SEEMS more powerful, than they really are. Take Tomb Kings scorpions. Anvils HATE this guy, thast why we take our ability to be immune to killing blow and poison. I didn't my very first game against my friends tomb kings, and he charged my Anvil in turn two and killing blew my Lord to death.

But I just learned from my mistake and now that doesn't happen anymore. But his scorpions STILL tie my anvil up for a few turns and even kills it from time to time. Nothing much I can do about it, its a weakness of the Anvil, and I accept that and I am trying to over come it!


the d6 str 4 hits also do half movement so they really slow up your speedy troops, leaving extra time for the handgunners etc to shoot them to pieces.
is it on ancient power that is does it 2d6 str 4 hits on d3 units? thats extremely powerfull when combined with a 'gunline' army. Esp if the dwarf player is using Thorek.
I dont like the argument that it cant be dispelled as dwarfs get no magic as they have such high lvls of dispell dice that i think it rare for magic to work well against them. Yes it might misfire, but i think apart from bolt thowers, so might all other warmachines.

Dwarves don't have magic. Our magic, you can say, would probably be the anvil. But instead of miscasting on double 1's, the anvil doesn't work on a single 1. So you can say our magic has a higher probability of miscasting than regular magic. Plus we can lose that 400 point model quite easily, which most people on here don't seem to realize. And when the Anvil breaks down or blows up, well, poor dwarves for teh rest of the game huh?

Count Zero
30-11-2006, 14:12
i think most armies lvl 4 wizards would come in around 400 points, can also do to a miscast, yes the dwarfs only on a 1 n 6, possibly with a re roll, but often mages are rolling 3+ dice for a spell so quite a high chance of those 1's appearing, and possibly harming the unit around them. very weak should they get into close combat, and their magical attacks can be dispelled!! How many DD does the avergae 2k dwarf army have? 4 basic right + additionals.

You may argue that mages have a greater selection of spells, but of course they are generally rolled for so you have cant base your amry around it, unless its the power 1 spell. and a lot come down to movemnt aids or MM's anyway.

Forbiddenknowledge
30-11-2006, 15:08
Thing is, its not just the anvil, its the (might I say, in case he's reading lol) the sheer genius of combining it with rangers/miners to pull of early on devestating flank/rear charges. Thats what I see to be the main problem, unless he finally listens to me and deploys in a wood..... mwahahaha.

Ok, I know, he'll never do that :(

intellectawe
30-11-2006, 15:12
You missed my point.

My point is that certain armies are hated by other players even though other players have never actually tried the army out. They just jump on the "I hate the Anvil for no real reason but I saw it on the internet or played it only once" bandwagon.

I was just showing that dwarves also have disadvantages that non dwarf players may not be familiar with, thats all.

Forbiddenknowledge
30-11-2006, 15:20
I don't hate them, I merely saw it absolutely flaw two otherwise decent armies, with barely any fuss, in like 2 turns..... this seemed a wee bit powerful to be able to do this..

intellectawe
30-11-2006, 15:36
Thing is, its not just the anvil, its the (might I say, in case he's reading lol) the sheer genius of combining it with rangers/miners to pull of early on devestating flank/rear charges. Thats what I see to be the main problem, unless he finally listens to me and deploys in a wood..... mwahahaha.

Ok, I know, he'll never do that :(

Thats no different than players using spells to move or charge units faster than they normally would.

The Anvil, in all honesty, is a one trick pony. And much like button mashing in Street Fighter II back in the mid 90's, if you keep falling for the same thing over and over again, the problem isn't the Dwarf army....


I don't hate them, I merely saw it absolutely flaw two otherwise decent armies, with barely any fuss, in like 2 turns..... this seemed a wee bit powerful to be able to do this..

Yes, I agree, but you are basing, obviously, your experience on the games you have played. You aren't thinking of the wider picture. I played Vampire Counts once with my Chaos Dwarves, and I crushed them, but I don't go around the internet spouting that Chaos Dwarves are over powered or that Vampire Counts suck balls.

I KNOW that there are players who can wipe the floor with me with Vampire Counts out there, but I jsut haven't crossed their patsh yet as my community here in Florida is very small.

My Tomb King opponent has never lost to dwarves, ever. He told me this quit alot actually when I started to buy the army. You can say he was arrogant and talking ****. But after I lost 4 games against him, I stopped playing the dwarves as a block of non moving troops and tried the anvil. Now I flank him with miners and I can hold off his 1st turn charges for atleast one extra turn. I finally beat him, and he changed his opinion that dwarven armies are easy wins and that dwarven players were, quite frankly, retarded for wasting money on such a useless army.

It's like 40k. How many people complain about Iron Warriors, but have ACTUALLY played a PURE Iron Warrior army list with 4 heavies and 9 oblits? Very little I can promise you that. I have once, and it was such an easy fight. Of course I was using Dark Eldar, but that is neither here nor there :)

People complain about Skaven armies, but my friends 2 units of Jezzails just are worthless now that I can use my anvil to charge my miners into them.

Each army may seem over powered, but it takes a good general to learn to overcome such losses and become a better player with the army you got.

Unless you are High Elves.... They are pretty much last place, thank god they are getting a army book next year :)

Forbiddenknowledge
30-11-2006, 15:41
But they can be countered, and do not allow a unit that has just appeared behind your army to rear charge and kill a whole unit....

Latro
30-11-2006, 15:51
What are you actually trying to gain from this?

Plenty of people have given you suggestions, but so far you only seem to be determined to keep complaining about it. If you're not interested in helpful suggestions, just say so and we won't bother you with them anymore.

... or you could just try some of the tactics mentioned yourself and see what they do.

gortexgunnerson
30-11-2006, 17:38
Thats no different than players using spells to move or charge units faster than they normally would.

The Anvil, in all honesty, is a one trick pony. And much like button mashing in Street Fighter II back in the mid 90's, if you keep falling for the same thing over and over again, the problem isn't the Dwarf army....

My Tomb King opponent has never lost to dwarves, ever.... and tried the anvil.

People complain about Skaven armies, but my friends 2 units of Jezzails just are worthless now that I can use my anvil to charge my miners into them.

Each army may seem over powered, but it takes a good general to learn to overcome such losses and become a better player with the army you got


Or as per the post above you could just get an anvil
Sorry just couldnt resist a post that says the Anvil isnt good but is the saving reason that has protected you and stopped you losing with your Dwarfs.

Adept
30-11-2006, 20:13
Thats no different than players using spells to move or charge units faster than they normally would.

You have a greater opportunity to stop the spell.

Even if you are less likely to stop the spell, the psychological benefit of knowing you can attempt to stop it makes it a lot easier to take when it happens.


The Anvil, in all honesty, is a one trick pony. And much like button mashing in Street Fighter II back in the mid 90's, if you keep falling for the same thing over and over again, the problem isn't the Dwarf army....

Actually, if the same trick keeps working despite everything being tried to counter it, then the problem is the trick, not the counters.


Or... you could just get an anvil
Sorry just couldnt resist a post that says the Anvil isnt good but is the saving reason that has protected you and stopped you losing with your Dwarfs.

I also thought that was quite funny.

The post could easily be summarised as:

"I used to lose. Then I bought an anvil. Now I win my games

I'd just like to state for the record that I don't think the anvil is over-powered. Given its cost, and the increased risk for the ancient powers, I think it is a well priced item. It is certainly a very powerful model, but its cost reflects this.

Thorek, however, is a completely different matter. Around here, we call him the 'I WIN' button.

intellectawe
30-11-2006, 21:08
Or as per the post above you could just get an anvil
Sorry just couldnt resist a post that says the Anvil isnt good but is the saving reason that has protected you and stopped you losing with your Dwarfs.

So let me understand you....

it perfectly ok for you that I play an army I am not happy with and lose with over and over, but when I change my list to include an item that I am able to win with, now I am wrong?

Once again, forcing your idea of what is a right way to play and a wrong way to play.

Go to the Bugman's Brewery. It is the Dwarf website for warhammer. Google it. Try reading some posts from "the other side" for a change.

You will see people who cant win with an avil all over the place. But then they go to core troops and win games. Guess what kind sir, I am one of the opposite.

I am currently converting my ironbreakers into longbeards and 40 warriors into miners because the Anvil suits my playing style.

So, what I get form this thread its this....

Players can't beat a dwarven unit, the unit must be cheesy. period.




"I used to lose. Then I bought an anvil. Now I win my games


And your point is? This could be said about ANY unit someone buys for ANY army they may own.

And yes, I do use Thorek. I also have NO issue with anyone using special characters against me in games. I never told any player "I don't want to play against your special character". SO this point is also moot. Fairness across the board where I live.

Adept
01-12-2006, 04:59
So let me understand you....

it perfectly ok for you that I play an army I am not happy with and lose with over and over, but when I change my list to include an item that I am able to win with, now I am wrong?

No no no, you've actually got it quite wrong.

What was humerous was the earlier assertion that a anvil was not too powerful, and was in fact less powerful than a casket of souls, followed by the example of you buying an anvil, and increasing the power of your army exponentially!


And yes, I do use Thorek. I also have NO issue with anyone using special characters against me in games. I never told any player "I don't want to play against your special character". SO this point is also moot. Fairness across the board where I live.

Well, I don't know about your opponents, but I think playing against Thorek in a gunline army would get pretty old, pretty fast.

Forbiddenknowledge
01-12-2006, 11:55
Indeed, nigh unstoppable combos like that ain't gonna make many people happy playing it a lot.

forthegloryofkazadekrund
01-12-2006, 12:23
hey
im the dwarf player in question, i played an game on monday against the empire and what did he do he ran, reorganised and attacked with his 3 pistoleer units, it was a very good game, it ended in a draw, both units made around thier points back (just), the rangers finally all died on turn 4 but there was some miners hacking thier way through some handgunners at the end of the 6the turn, the best bit was the steam tank doing 12 points of dammage to its self from the volleygun exploding right in front of the ironbreakers, its an effective combo it just needs thinking about how to combat it and there has been some very good comments made

Forbiddenknowledge
01-12-2006, 13:25
Just so no mix ups - My comment above Dave, was not directed at your Dwarfs, just a generalisation. I'm thinking I'm looking forward to playing 2000 points (tempted to bring and proxy some High Elves so I can do it monday, if you want).

I wish I'd watched it now, steam tank exploding sounds fun :D

I think I have a possible strategy, so we;ll have to see if it works....

forthegloryofkazadekrund
04-12-2006, 11:10
yep will do , ill bring them tonight :), i know it was not directed but i wrote that if anyone wanted to ask questions

Forbiddenknowledge
04-12-2006, 11:20
Sounds good! Will have to sort out my army after work, don't be suprised if my woodies are either wearing dresses or skeletal...

Forbiddenknowledge
05-12-2006, 10:44
So, played the game, close fought draw. Anvil killed 3 wardancers.... and then blew up. It had virtually no effect on the game at all. I hereby eat my hat, and will try not to overreact in future :D

forthegloryofkazadekrund
05-12-2006, 11:11
lol, it was a bad day for the anvil, "misfired" 3 times destroying itself on the last attempt - all is lost!!!!!!

Martyr
05-12-2006, 14:22
Wow, I can't believe this thread is still going.


-Martyr

Varath- Lord Impaler
06-12-2006, 07:36
Ahh, i am glad you have learned the error of your ways forbidden knowledge.

But the fact is, the insult to the dwarfs must be repayed. :P

I shall therefore play every army you mentioned owning in this thread and i shall beat each one. Then we can be considered equal :P

(I use a normal anvil, not thorek)