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derv
24-11-2006, 09:37
I have a few rules queries that came up in a game last night.

1) On the charge, how does the "align" rule work? If a unit can only reach its enemy by having one model in base to base, are they moved across so all models are able to fight? This can end up with every model moving more than its charge range. It does seem silly to only have two models fighting though. This rule is very unclear in the book.

2) If a unit pursues an enemy and ends up moving off the board on the final turn of the game, do they count for table quarters?

3) A unit of Empire Spearman with Warrior Priest is charged. The Warrior Priest gives the unit Hatred, but is killed in a challenge before the unit attacks back. Does the unit lose Hatred immediately, or at the end of the phase?

eldrak
24-11-2006, 11:32
1) Look to a number of other threads here.
2) No.
3) They'll probably lose it unless the priest rules says something different.

DeathlessDraich
24-11-2006, 13:43
Good questions, derv.

Q1 Yes you're right the rules on final alignment and maximisation are incomplete in the 7th. We are awaiting an FAQ on this as promised by GW.

will reply to Q2 and 3 later

Bloodknight
24-11-2006, 13:47
No, they don´t lose it. The challenge takes place at the same time as the rest of the fight.

Festus
24-11-2006, 15:42
Hi

No, they donīt lose it. The challenge takes place at the same time as the rest of the fight.
Often untrue, unfortunaltely. As the Priest has I 4 IIRC, he will attack before his mates.
If his opponent in the challenge is of a higher I than the spearmen (or if he charged), he will kil the Priest before the Spearmen have a chance to attack. The unit loses the benefit as soon as the Priest is dead, as he is not part of the unit anymore - he is dead...

FEstus

Fhoen
24-11-2006, 16:04
can u quote it from the rulebook festus? cus i think they get it that for the duration of that turn as well...

Griefbringer
24-11-2006, 16:20
I would side with Festus on this - the unit loses the hatred as soon as the warrior priest gets killed (though anything that gets to attack simultaneously with whatever killed the warrior priest still benefits from the hatred). I could not find anything in the rulebook that would indicate otherwise.

DeathlessDraich
24-11-2006, 20:43
Q3: "...priests and the unit they are with hate all models in the following armies...does not affect other characters and units ItP"

fhoen: It does not state 'lasts for the duration of the turn'.

However, it does not state in 7th rules that challenges must be resolved first - I thought it did but I can't find it in the rules.
It doesn't state that the charging unit gets to choose whether the challenge goes first or after the rest of the unit.
So it is possible to have the rest of the unit to fight first and benefit from the WP hatred.

Festus
24-11-2006, 21:04
Hi

However, it does not state in 7th rules that challenges must be resolved first - I thought it did but I can't find it in the rules.
It doesn't state that the charging unit gets to choose whether the challenge goes first or after the rest of the unit.
Nope.
Close combats have to be doen in Initiative order (with the known exceptions - like chargers, great weapons, etc...). So the Priest will strike before the spears, and if his challenger has I 4+, the priest will be dead before the Spearmen will strike.

Festus

Gimp
24-11-2006, 21:10
I agree with Festus in this one boys.

Griefbringer
24-11-2006, 21:12
However, it does not state in 7th rules that challenges must be resolved first - I thought it did but I can't find it in the rules.


Challenges do not affect the order that the attacks are resolved in combat - actually the only thing that challenges affect is who can attack whom.

Festus
25-11-2006, 08:37
Hi

- actually the only thing that challenges affect is who can attack whom.
Well, TBH they affect a few other things, like Combat Result (Overkill), or certain Magic Items, or Bloodline Powers, etc.
But they certainly don't change the sequence of attacks. This is even explicitly stated (BRB, p.77, right column, first sentence).
Although it is convenient to do the challenge seperately for structural reasons, ie. simplicity.

Festus

Griefbringer
25-11-2006, 09:35
Well, TBH they affect a few other things, like Combat Result (Overkill), or certain Magic Items, or Bloodline Powers, etc.

Ooops, my bad for ignoring the Overkill results.

And while it is true that some magic items (and some other special abilities from army books) give certain benefits when the bearer is in challenge, I would not really consider those benefits to be a property of the challenge rules per se, but a property of the appropriate magical item - but this is really getting into technicalities of little relevance.

DeathlessDraich
25-11-2006, 11:19
Hi

Nope.
Close combats have to be doen in Initiative order (with the known exceptions - like chargers, great weapons, etc...). So the Priest will strike before the spears, and if his challenger has I 4+, the priest will be dead before the Spearmen will strike.

Festus

This is not relevant to the scenario quoted. The Spearmen and Priest have just been charged. The priest will strike back first and not strike first but if he does so he has not been slain and the Spearmen must have 'hatred'.
I think you've mixed up the sequence somehow - the priest cannot be dead when he is able to strike last.

More to the point:

The question I've raised is the player whose unit charges the Priest/Spearmen can choose whether he wants to resolve the challenge first or the combat between rnf models. This is done irrespective of his units Initiative - pg 34 2nd paragraph so Initiative does not come into the point I've made.
If the player chooses to resolve the RnF combat first then the Spearmen have hatred

Festus
25-11-2006, 13:15
hi

This is not relevant to the scenario quoted. The Spearmen and Priest have just been charged. The priest will strike back first and not strike first but if he does so he has not been slain and the Spearmen must have 'hatred'.
I think you've mixed up the sequence somehow - the priest cannot be dead when he is able to strike last.
You know that you are not making any sense at all, do you?

If the Priest and the unit of Spearmen is charged, then the Priest surely will be dead by the time the Spears strike, as the challenger will have killed the Priest in a *strike first* situation. So no hatred for the Spears because when they strike, the Priest is a goner, an ex-priest, he went to meet his ancestors, etc. pp.

The striking sequence will be:

1st Any strike first abilities
2nd The chargers in I-sequence
3rd The charged in I sequence
4th The charged with Great Weapons.

The challenger of the Priest must be in the first two groups, and if he kills the Priest, the Spears will not benefit from hatred, as they will only strike in group 3.

Easy, innit? :D

Festus

Griefbringer
25-11-2006, 13:54
The question I've raised is the player whose unit charges the Priest/Spearmen can choose whether he wants to resolve the challenge first or the combat between rnf models.

I have some difficulties grasping what you are talking about here - are you trying to implicate that the challenge would be somehow totally independent event from the surrounding combat, for considering the order that the blows take place? I cannot think of anything to back that up in the challenge rules.

DeathlessDraich
25-11-2006, 16:46
hi

You know that you are not making any sense at all, do you?

If the Priest and the unit of Spearmen is charged, then the Priest surely will be dead by the time the Spears strike, as the challenger will have killed the Priest in a *strike first* situation. So no hatred for the Spears because when they strike, the Priest is a goner, an ex-priest, he went to meet his ancestors, etc. pp.

The striking sequence will be:

1st Any strike first abilities
2nd The chargers in I-sequence
3rd The charged in I sequence
4th The charged with Great Weapons.

The challenger of the Priest must be in the first two groups, and if he kills the Priest, the Spears will not benefit from hatred, as they will only strike in group 3.

Easy, innit? :D

Festus

The striking sequence you listed above is exactly as I said in my previous post and this led to my previous conclusion. You've still missed my main point.

DeathlessDraich
25-11-2006, 16:48
I have some difficulties grasping what you are talking about here - are you trying to implicate that the challenge would be somehow totally independent event from the surrounding combat, for considering the order that the blows take place? I cannot think of anything to back that up in the challenge rules.

Yes, nothing in the rules mentions the above sequence and that leads to the problem I mentioned beforehand.

WLBjork
25-11-2006, 18:35
All the troops in the charging unit strike before any model in the charged unit (with the usual provisios) is what 2nd para on page 34 says.

Example: if VC Skeletons lead by a Vampire Count charged Empire Swordsmen lead by a Warrior Priest, with both characters fighting a challenge, the strike order would be:

Vampire Count
Skeletons
Warrior Priest
Empire

Most folks would resolve the challenge separately for convenience, but that is technically wrong.

Wings of Doom
25-11-2006, 18:41
And if the Vampire Count killed the Warrior Priest, because it's before the imperial troops strike, they lose the hatred.

Griefbringer
25-11-2006, 19:33
Going back to DeathlessDraich's original comment:



However, it does not state in 7th rules that challenges must be resolved first - I thought it did but I can't find it in the rules.
It doesn't state that the charging unit gets to choose whether the challenge goes first or after the rest of the unit.


Looks like you are under the impression that the challenges would be fought out separately, either before or after the greater engament that they are part of. However, to my knowledge this is not the case, and I went carefully through the challenges section of the rulebook to find out if there was something that was missed out, but could not find anything except an explicit mention that "the striking order is not affected by the challenge".

Therefore, I stand by my claim that the challenges are fought out neither before nor after the greater engagement that they are part of, and thus whether a model is in challenge or not does not affect its striking order relative to all the other models in the engagement. (*)

If somebody can find something in the rulebook that proves me wrong, then please quote it here.

(*) = theoretically a model could have special ability or magic item that could affects its striking order if (and only if) it is participating in a challenge, but I cannot up any examples of that right now, and anyway it would not be relative to the general rules in question.

mattjgilbert
25-11-2006, 19:46
1) On the charge, how does the "align" rule work? If a unit can only reach its enemy by having one model in base to base, are they moved across so all models are able to fight? This can end up with every model moving more than its charge range. It does seem silly to only have two models fighting though. This rule is very unclear in the book.But you would only have two models fighting for the first round of combat. Assuming there is a clear winner and the combat goes into a second round, IIRC the winning unit may increase its frontage, thus bringing more models/attacks into play. This sounds entirely reasonable to me - the winning unit pressing home the advantage.

Festus
26-11-2006, 10:51
Hi

Yes, nothing in the rules mentions the above sequence and that leads to the problem I mentioned beforehand.
The rules only mention this sequence, and nothing else: The challenge is not separate, but part of the close combat. the protagonist and the atagonist will strike when their respective turn comes up in the striking sequence. This is explicitly said in the challenge rules, which I gave. Funnily enough, those refer to the striking sequence you gave (BRB, p.34), which in turn have the Priest stone cold dead by the time the spears can strike.

Where is your problem? :confused:

Let's stick to : Vampire with Skellies charge Priest with Spears. Challenge accepted by the characters.


The Vampire hits first (charger with highest I) as of p. 34 = Priest dead = Spears lose hatred.
The Skellies strike at the Spears.
If the Priest were still alive, he could strike here. But alas...
The surviving Spears strike - without the benefit of hatred.


That's it, folks...

Festus

DeathlessDraich
26-11-2006, 11:08
Yes I agree with what you wrote above. No problems because the VC has the highest I.

Using your example for the problem I'm talking about:
There is no VC but lets say a champion issues a challenge OR a VC character with the same I (hypothetical) as his RnF, issues the challenge.
The rules for challenges do not stipulate a sequence of : 'challenges' first or Rnf first. Therefore is the choice of sequence given to the VC player, the Empire player or a dice roll?
If the RnF models fight first (or simultaneously) then their enemies (Empire Spearmen) would have hatred - that's what I've been trying to say all along but obviously I didn't put it across clearly.

Festus
26-11-2006, 11:21
Hi

Hi
If his opponent in the challenge is of a higher I than the spearmen (or if he charged), he will kil the Priest before the Spearmen have a chance to attack. The unit loses the benefit as soon as the Priest is dead, as he is not part of the unit anymore - he is dead...


... No problems because the VC has the highest I.
...If the RnF models fight first (or simultaneously) then their enemies (Empire Spearmen) would have hatred - that's what I've been trying to say all along but obviously I didn't put it across clearly.
The above is my first post in this thread...


Therefore is the choice of sequence given to the VC player, the Empire player or a dice roll? There are no simultaneous attacks in WHFB, with the notable exception of r'n'f models from the same unit - as it makes no difference here.
If you cannot say who is going first, you will have to roll a die for it, as given in the rules which you yourself pointed out (p.34)

Festus