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Imperialis_Dominatus
25-11-2006, 03:07
Hey, this issue came up when I was writing my fluff for my army, and also recently regarding the before-unknown Red Templars, who another member said were comprised of Black Templars (Imperial Fists) and Blood Angels geneseed, to weed out the bloodthirstiness (it worked). But I've seen other people scratch their heads on this issue. Can one, when founding a Chapter, take geneseed from more than one Primarch? Why or why not?

Gutlord Grom
25-11-2006, 03:33
Yeah, I think the 3rd edition Space Marine 'dex said sometimes Chapters were a genetic cocktail of diffrent gene seeds.

BrainFireBob
25-11-2006, 03:38
It tends to have . .side effects, though. It may be what caused the Cursed Founding abnormalities.

Gutlord Grom
25-11-2006, 03:40
I think that's a bit diffrent. Background points to some messing by the Ad Mech with Marines.

Ardathair
25-11-2006, 04:37
As I Recall, the Adeptus Mechanicus take the Geneseed for each of the ninteen organs from which ever one is the most pure/ untainted. The Space Marines Chapters from the third founding on are supposed to be mixes. This means that only the first and second foundings would have the genetic abnormalities of the Blood Angels or the Space Wolves.

For expediency, I could see the Adeptus Mechanicus using one chapters geneseed to make a later founding chapter in a hurry, but if they have the time and rescources to blend two chapter geneseed they can go through the whole genetic screening.

ss_cherubael
25-11-2006, 12:45
Yeah just weighted in on the other discussion. The problem with this lays in the original idea of the geneseed and the way it works as layed out in 2nd edition. The geneseed overwrites much of the original DNA of the subject and if you trie to implant two into one person they would probably die right there or suffer from some hideous mutation due to the process. The AdMech do experiment with Geneseed given to them for purity tests (although in secret as after the cursed foundings it was banned) and many chapters that suffer some sort of problem such as the Blood Angels and the red thrist and black rage have their apocatheries working around the clock to perfect the geneseed and purify it. So far there is no cure for the red thrist or the black rage, the only person ever to exist that has overcome the thirst is Merphiston lord of death and he is stated as being the only one.
BTW the red templars havent appeared till this edition, i have asked around after reading this and the other thread and also searched back through the old dex's and backround books. So yeah.

Scorpio
25-11-2006, 15:51
You can take multiple gene-seeds. The most mixed gene-seed is the DA for its stability. There can be side-effects but the mixing can also cure side-effects, like the blood thirst as you said.

-Scorpio

schoon
25-11-2006, 16:53
All attempts to mix gene-seed have resulted in abnormalities and/or disaster, such as the Cursed Founding, so the AdMech no longer perform such experiments.

You'll also note that in all of the fluff, chapters have a clear line of succession from one line of gene-seed, and that nowhere do you find reference to Chapter X of both Chapter Y & Z geneseed.

LordXaras
25-11-2006, 17:22
That's is wrong.
The Relictors have Ultramarine and Dark Angels geneseed.

How is this possible? The key is how new chapters are produced and gene-seed grown.

The progenoid glands store information on all the extra organs in a marine, and make it possible to extract that stored genetic data to produce new sets of those organs. This means that you can extract a progenoid from an Ultramarine, grow half the organs from that, extract a progenoid from a Dark Angel, grow the rest of the organs from that, and then implant it in the same potential marine.

Now, it's possible that some chapters have slight mutations in the genetic coding of their progenoids, meaning that they aren't compatible with those of certain other chapters. Also, the Martians that are in charge of organising the implants of new chapters would always be a bit hesitant to mix around with that sacred stuff.

IceFire
25-11-2006, 17:30
i heard that the grey knights are made from 8 different geneseeds... cant remember where i heard that, can any one confirm?

If it is true then it appears that it can be quite effective (as the GK's clearly dont have any issues in rage, canine or any other aspects :D )

LordXaras
25-11-2006, 17:37
The Grey Knight draw their geneseed from an unknown source. I am quite certain nothing certain of it has been disclosed.

Mechanicus
25-11-2006, 17:42
In the fourth Horus Heresy Artbook, it is implied that eight of the survivors from the Eisenstein were used to make the Grey Knights.

LordXaras
25-11-2006, 18:02
Ah, my bad then. I really have to get my hands on those atbooks, don't I?

Khaine's Messenger
25-11-2006, 18:22
Can one, when founding a Chapter, take geneseed from more than one Primarch? Why or why not?

You can, as has been stated previously. Most of the mass-produced stock in the present day does not seem to really be sorted (eg, the huuuge storage facility in Storm of Iron), just stored (mind you, since 3/5 of all space marines are likely descendants of UM stock, sorting might not matter much). The only stuff that's sorted at all is likely the tithes for testing and the "stasis locked" traitor seed. Note also that all the organs (including the initial progenoids) are, iirc, grown in lab-haemonculi (or at least they were in the Crusade era), mindless blanks whose only purpose is to generate/foster the growth of those organs until such time as they are ready for harvesting and implantation in a Space Marine neophyte. So most of the mixing doesn't even have to be done in the field or by direct manipulation, just through several generations of such creatures.

schoon
25-11-2006, 21:51
That's is wrong.
The Relictors have Ultramarine and Dark Angels geneseed.

Interesting. Your source on this?

LordXaras
25-11-2006, 22:57
Interesting. Your source on this?

Geneseed
The source of the Relictors' geneseed is largely based on gene stock taken from the laboratorium on Mars and is thought to be composed of that grown from the Ultramarine and Dark Angels.[...]
Okay, so it says "thought to be", but it's not a world of difference when you deal with GW.

Kaiser
25-11-2006, 23:08
Geneseed is at it's base, the DNA copy of the Original Primarchs. Conbining them would be possible, but that doesn't mean it will work 100% of the time.

Each Astartes when implanted with their advanced organs, also get their DNA partially overwritten by their Primarchs geneseed.

This is why many people in the first founding legions and 2nd Founding chapters look somewhat like their Primarchs.

Combined geneseed can cimbine traits. Black templars are fervent but not Bloodthisty, so by combining their respective geneseeds, the Blood Angels would become less dominant, with the purposeful effect of no Black Rage and Red Thirst.

Making chapters with different traits either from the codex, or just for fluff, you could explain by having different genessed.

For Example, Red Tigers could be made using White Scars and Imperial fists geneseed, making them a powerful offensive force.

Kage2020
26-11-2006, 03:22
The original 'fluff' had, of course, the idea that Geneseed could be derived from multiple sources. This doesn't sit overtly well with the current approach, though.

Kage

NashTrickster
26-11-2006, 10:19
Geneseed
The source of the Relictors' geneseed is largely based on gene stock taken from the laboratorium on Mars and is thought to be composed of that grown from the Ultramarine and Dark Angels.[...]Okay, so it says "thought to be", but it's not a world of difference when you deal with GW.There's something which you've overlooked here... That quote has to be read into its context...

When looked in conjonction with this:
[...] it is thought the Relictors were founded during the dark days of the Age of Apostasy [...]It then becomes quite evident that, if the rumours that they were created from mixed geneseed are even true, then it is also highly likely that the Relictors are a chapter which was created from the wild experiments of the Adeptus Mechanicus which were current at that time (the 21st founding) and were then completely stopped in face of the disastrous results.

For, if they are of mixed geneseed, it was not without side-effects! The IA states that the Relictors geneseed is also rumoured to be subject to quite a high level of mutations (even if the Apothecaries keep a close watch on this).
Since the Ultramarines and Dark Angels geneseeds are known to be really stable ones, and since the Relictors' mere proximity with the Eye of Terror cannot explain fully those mutations (or it would also be witnessed amongst the ranks of the other Astartes Preases chapters --which is not the case AFAIK) then the mixing of geneseed must have had some pernicious side-effects...
Not to even mention their "mental flaw", their heretical interest in the works of the Warp...

=====

Now, on with the general "mixing geneseed" question:

Of course you can decide your chapter is made from mixed geneseed...
But that's not a good idea IMO.

I'll never understand why a lot of people think that "breaching the universe's rules" is a good idea. A Sci-fi universe is defined by its limitations.
One of the limitations of the 40k universe is that messing with geneseed purity is a bad idea that never really solved any problem, and often created more of them... It's enough to watch the fate of the 21st founding chapters we know about to understand that.

As far as the Blood Angels geneseed is concerned (since it was one of those mentionned in the original post), just take a look to the Lamenters, the AM Magos biologis have somehow succeeded in curing them from the Black Rage, but at what cost for the chapter? Uncannily bad luck...

Moreover, ask yourself this simple question: why would you want a BA successor without what makes the BA special?

BA have 2 (main) particularities: the Death Company and the Baal Predator.
Not all BA successors should have access to the Baal Predator to begin with, since only the BA know how to build them and would not necessarily pass on that "secret" to the new chapter... And they would even be less likely to pass that "secret" to a chapter which doesn't hold the pure geneseed of their holy Primarch! (Wouldn't learning that "someone" tempered with their holy genes, the Blood of their Primarch, be seen as the highest of Heresies by the BA?)

So what do you end up with? A chapter which is supposed to be a BA successor but without anything that makes the BA? Why not simply make it an UM or IF successor then? :p

EDIT: I'll add a final word here, there's no official fluff for the Red Templars that I'm aware of. But I may be wrong and GW decided them to be BT/BA mixed successors, then I think it's a example of poorly written fluff (unless they also wrote them as a 21st founding chapter with inherent flaws resulting from the mix)... And if I'm right and it's just someone's view of the Red Templars, "because, you know they're RED thus they must have Blood Angel geneseed and since their name contains 'Templars' they are necessarily BT successors too" then, well... :rolleyes:

Kaiser
26-11-2006, 16:41
So you just hate the idea of Blood Angels' successor not being blood carzed vampyres?

Stop splitting hairs. Most chapters are only distantly related to the first founding. a Chapter Called Red Templars is likely based off Black templars geneseed.

If you don't agree then don't make a Red Templars army based of the Black Templars.

NashTrickster
26-11-2006, 18:48
So you just hate the idea of Blood Angels' successor not being blood carzed vampyres?No. What I don't like is the idea of a Blood Angels successor which has overrun the Curse of Sanguinius... There's a slight difference there.
The Lamenters, for example, have solved the "blood crazed" thing, but they got a nasty bad luck in exchange, which nicely counter-balances any advantage. They are no longer "crazed" but still "cursed"...


Most chapters are only distantly related to the first founding.??? I'm not sure I follow you there.
Their geneseed is still the very same (possible mutations apart) that was passed over the millenia. An Imperial Fist successor will not have the betcher glands, a Raven Guard successor will have a faulty melanochrome, etc... Those things are passed on by the genessed. So is the Curse of Sanguinius...

Of course, I don't say an UM successor should ressemble the UMs. The Mortifactors are quite different from their parents for example, but that's due to a cultural change, not a mutation or experiences with the geneseed.


a Chapter Called Red Templars is likely based off Black templars geneseed.The pseudo-logic which leads you to say that is, well, flawed.
By that same logic, the Red Wolves should be a successor of the Space Wolves (which we know they can't be since the use of SW geneseed was forbidden after the Wolf Brothers debacle)... And BTW, the Blood Ravens are not a mix of Blood Angels and Raven Guard genes...
A likeness in name doesn't necessarily mean filiation.

Am I the only one who's tired of people taking lazy short-cuts because they can't think of anything else? It's how you end up with Red Templars descending from Chritmas Marines, "because they have red and white armour you know, like Santa!"... Oh, and maybe they're sponsored by Coca Cola too! :rolleyes:

But, like I said in the beginning of my first post in this thread: do as you will... It's your army after all. Just don't expect people not to roll eyes at you when you explain your fluff...

BrainFireBob
26-11-2006, 19:18
There's quite a few kids who want BA advantages without costs- not realizing the costs come from the same source.

Blood Angels have two flaws: Death Company, and Red Thirst/Black Rage.

They always had the rage and the thirst when their blood was up- it was the death of Sanguinius that left them being open to becoming permanently "trapped" in this state.