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Lt. Co Steel
25-11-2006, 09:30
G'day fellow wargamers, we all know that the gaurd shed they're lives every day for the glory of the god emporer, but a fundemental question that i can't seem to find a answer to still remains, do they get paid?

your opinions would be most welcome.

Warwolt the skaven
25-11-2006, 09:45
I belive they get food and such, tough. Its the CO's old "ITS YOUR *********** DUTY SON, NOW GET BACK INTO IT" song that troubles the poor Guards :P

2_heads_talking
25-11-2006, 09:55
I perosnally like to imagine that they would, as if or when the time comes that a particular IG regiment obtains the rights of conquest upon a world, they will need something to help them in their sudden role change from warrior to citizen.

Also, another queston; do the families of a Guardsmen who dies in the field receive any sort of compensation from the Imperial authorities; I've always wondered that, whether the numbers of casualties would simply bleed the Imperium dry if they even gave a thought to those bereaving kin?

TheHereticsPaintbrush
25-11-2006, 11:26
I have read fluff before that alot of actual Guard troops come from taxes or tithes that are paid by the Lords of the worlds in which they come from, so for those guys probally not.

Now, if you think about it, the Imperial Guard numbers in the billions upon billions spread way across the galaxy, with each force being governed by its own Lord. I'm sure that it would vary depending upon the need of that Lord. For example, if times were relaxed without much need for anyone to go to war, a salary might be used as an incentive for imperial citizens to join the ranks of the guard.

On highly militarized worlds such as Cadia, everyone performs some sort of function which is militaristic in nature, therefore, here, i would suggest that yes they did received compensation- b/c if they didn't i believe the economy would collapse with the onset of inflation.

Going back to the billions upon billions, I think the bottom line is this: Since there are so many people within the galaxies- starvation and poverty run rampid- join the imperial guard to receive food and clothing, brotherhood and protection. From the ranks of SGT and above, especially officers and storm troopers, i believe compensation in a monetary form is pretty much a have-to, to fend off corruption. Otherwise people would just defect to where the grass is greener on the other side (a wealthier, more technologically advanced army)

Reflex
25-11-2006, 11:36
yes, because if your in the imperial guard you have what, a .00000000000000000000000000001% chance of coming out alive. so i dont think they would even bother. however in saying that, there is reference to them being paid in the gaunts ghost books... IIRC... so i guess in closing, some armies would, but others wont.

think about it, would the Vostroyan first get paind.. NO....

cadian conscripts.. AHHH hAHAHA no!

catachan.... prob not, mordian.. eh no...pretorian.. yes, because they are rich snooty bastards...

Iracundus
25-11-2006, 11:45
I'm of the opinion that yes the Guard do get paid but in the form of military script, usable only at designated approved locations. This at least creates the illusion that the Guardsmen are receiving some sort of compensation for their effort, even if "company store" effect and deductions for food, clothing, etc. effectively reduce the actual discretionary pay to near zero. Though Guardsmen may be offered eventual conquest and settlement rights to some world, that is a far off prospect and one which most probably realize they will never see. The use of pay is one means of keeping morale steady in the meantime, and many Guardsmen may never figure out the company store effect.

Siam-Tiger
25-11-2006, 12:01
IIRC they get paid, but as many as die during battle, the officials don't bother sending thousands into battle and paying only the few hundred that will (eventually) survice.

Griefbringer
25-11-2006, 12:01
I would like to bring out two further points:

1.) What does a guardsman need money for? Clothing, food and accommodation are arranged by the Guard itself (though the quality would depend on location), and the amount of other material possessions an individual guardsman can have is rather limited (since he needs to be able to carry them on his pack together with his actually service gear). This pretty much leaves recreational usage (alcohol, drugs, gambling, all sorts of public and private entertainment, and other such luxuries) as the only thing they could do with their money.

2.) When can the guardsman use his salary? On an actual warzone the chances of finding somewhere to spend it are rather low, and on interstellar transportation they are likely to be limited (there just might be some sort of canteen where to buy small stuff, though). However, when on a garrison duty, without an immediate risk of action, there would be possibility for the guardsmen to have short leaves regularly - presuming that there is a non-hostile civilian population present, this would give them some opportunity to spend their money amongst this population for recreational purposes.

So I would presume that, while on a garrison duty, guardsmen would be given some small allowance (perhaps financed from taxes collected from the local population), that they would be able to spend on their free time. Also, after a campaign when the survivors are placed on garrison duty, they might be given some extra salary to allow them to celebrate a bit.

Of course, the situation would depend a bit on the area - if there is no real civilian population, or if they do not have a monetary economy, then there would be relatively little that the guardsmen could do with the money (unless there is some sort of canteen provided by the Guard itself).

Brother Othorio
25-11-2006, 12:56
each planet is required to provide the Departmento Munitorum with a set amount of manpower ~ my opinion is that the Departmento Munitorum does not remunerate said manpower for their service at all (unless a General/Warmaster decides to reward them), tho they do probably give them a stipend if they are in a position to use it (eg: british soldiers stationed in germany get extra money since they have to pay for things from the locals that they wouldnt if they were on a base in the UK)

however each planet first has to motivate men to join the Guard in the first place ~ some just round up criminals and threaten to shoot them if they dont go, some send fanatical volunteers who are more than eager to serve the Emperor, some go for the social prestige that comes of service.. presumably a fair few will do it by offering the brave young men money (there is at least one canon example of money: the Jopall Indentured Squadrons, tho admitedly they are all working to pay off their debts to the planetary government rather than to earn a nice bit of money to live on)

PS: i'm of the opinion that terms of service of guardsmen probably world to world: that a world is required to provide X men on active service at any one time (possibly with some allowance made for casualties) and that to get men back they have to provide replacements ~ so if a planet just wants rid of 50,000 ingrates they'll just wait till their all dead before sending more, whereas if they send members of their social elite they may provide replacements after something like 4 years

cav da man
25-11-2006, 13:05
i always thought of them getting paid in lumps at the end. The ones that survive have worked up enough money to live on for a short while, since so few actually end up surviving and the pay is pathetic then it wouldnt be a problem for the economy.

Reflex
25-11-2006, 13:11
I would like to bring out two further points:

1.) What does a guardsman need money for?

2.) When can the guardsman use his salary?

1.) cheap hookers, black market booze, gambling, random black market items and drugs and so on.

2.) you wouldent believe it but most gaurd regiments do get leave.

Yog_Sothoth
25-11-2006, 13:30
Actually, I think I remeber one of Commissar Cain´s fellows stating that they visit brothels (brothels with more style than the governors palace XD) . So here you have something they need to spend their money on.

Griefbringer
25-11-2006, 13:38
Of course, there are units where salary would not even be considered, like:

- penal legions (they are in there as a punishment)
- ogryns (don't really care about money, prefer getting food instead)
- units recruited from feral worlds (limited concept of money, limited contact with more civilised civilians), at least initially

Of course, enterprising guardsmen can also figure out other means of supplementing their income, such as looting fallen enemies (like Savlar Chem-dogs) or appropriating Guard propert and selling it on black market (cunning ratling quartermasters).

Necro Angelo
25-11-2006, 13:56
You could just imagine that they're paid as normal soldiers today are; I mean afterall, why would'nt that work?

You say it would be difficult to pay for evey Guardsmen as there are billions upon billions of them, but remember also that this is on a galctical scale where far more resources than you could imagine are available. During times of dire need (Ork Waaagh, Dark Eldar Raid, Chaos Incursion) you can imagine that more Guardsmen would be conscripted into the force, and sent to battle without consent of any kind.

Scorpio
25-11-2006, 15:43
I believe they do get paid. Simply because they would probably demand it for the work they do. Or maybe they dont get paid but money is sent back to their family.

-Scorpio

malika
25-11-2006, 15:51
I perosnally like to imagine that they would, as if or when the time comes that a particular IG regiment obtains the rights of conquest upon a world, they will need something to help them in their sudden role change from warrior to citizen.

Also, another queston; do the families of a Guardsmen who dies in the field receive any sort of compensation from the Imperial authorities; I've always wondered that, whether the numbers of casualties would simply bleed the Imperium dry if they even gave a thought to those bereaving kin?

I assume that a small percentage of a planet would make it into the Guard. Lets say that 5% or so becomes pdf and about 1% would become Guard, the Imperial Guard are the elite of the PDF. If you would get too many soldiers the economy of the Imperium would simply collapse.

I think we should look at the Roman legions for inspiration on how the Guardsmen get paid.

Getz
25-11-2006, 16:08
If they weren't paid in some way shape or form the Majority of the Imperial Guard would end up mutinying.

Seriously guys, no matter why you joined the Guard, there's go to be some kind of incentive to keep you going from day to day.

I suspect that Iracundus is correct and Guardsmen are primarily paid in military scrip, with which they buy their Lho Sticks, Candy bars, Porn Mags and credits for the Astropath booth or whatever else it is they use to pass the time.

However, when they go on leave (and Guardsmen will get leave now and then, Soldiers who are kept constantly in action quickly deteriorate) I expect they are able to "draw out" some of there Scrip in the local currency, which they then undoubtedly spend of Whores and Booze.

Hey, if I were a Guardsman, that's what I'd do...

five01st
25-11-2006, 16:18
Meaning after their service they get land for growing crops? When the Battlefield life expectancy is like 6 hours (what was that BL book's title again? The one starting with the dieing Gaurdsman after the Ork attack), who would join the IG for some land if they manage to live?


if your in the imperial guard you have what, a .00000000000000000000000000001% chance of coming out alive.

Goq Gar
25-11-2006, 16:19
Quoted from Gaunt's Ghosts First triple novel:

The troops had been given enough of the local currency to make do while they were on leave.

------

So, it would appear guardsmen get all the cash they need when they need it.

I would also assume their families get something...

Griefbringer
25-11-2006, 16:33
As for the families, I would presume that a lot of the guardsmen are young enough to not have a bunch of kids left behind. And in those cases where people with families are sent off-world, I doubt that any payment for the upkeeping of the children would be handled directly by the local planetary government, and not by the Guard organisation itself.

Khaine's Messenger
25-11-2006, 16:42
Even if guardsmen didn't get paid, it's not like they couldn't get money if they were interested in getting some (or anything else they want for that isn't bolted down, for that matter, since a lasgun is a rather useful credit card). In fact, it's probably better that they are paid so that they aren't "encouraged" to take some of the "other" routes to the acquisition of money, such as cooking the books in the regimental motorpool, "losing" Guard-issue equipment, outright theft, selling information, &etc. Since a great many guardsmen are on garrison duty (even on relatively frontline worlds), it's not like they'll be wanting for chances to pull that sort of thing off....

And not all guardsmen suffer the "15 hour" thing. That's the entire point of Fifteen Hours...that's the average length of time a newbie will last. Once you've survived your first fifteen hours (ie, now you're one of the walking dead rather than one of the dead men walking), you're one of the team and you'll get issued part of the rations for all the cool gear your regiment has managed to "acquire"--hotshot packs and such. Not that you'll last much longer, you understand, because war is an indiscriminate mistress, but you're past the high initial statistics and are now in the realm of attrition warfare.

Minister
25-11-2006, 16:53
That, and the vast majority of Guard units are NOT sent forth to die in pointless meatgrinders. The majority will be sent to consolidate Imperial rule in the border regions or to act as garisons for threatened worlds.

Of course, by age old tradition, the pay is always late. A man will rethink deserting if he's got two months pay waiting for him when he's rotated back off the line.

Griefbringer
25-11-2006, 17:53
I will agree that the overall guardsman mortality rate tends to be rather exaggerated - while Imperium does not give much value for individual human life, there is no gain to be had from throwing away resources. And besides, Imperium is in the fight for the win - and once they win, there will be survivors.

While combat in the frontlines will be deadly, especially against a powerful and determined opponent, not all the guardsmen in a combat zone spend all their time there - a lot might be in the quieter sectors or in the rear as reserves, and regiments arriving late on the theater might find that the major operations are already over and enemy beaten, and all that is left for them is to help to clean up the odd survivors.

The most dangerous place for a guardsman is probably on a system that gets suddenly invaded by an superior enemy - in those cases all they can do is to hold out and hope that reinforcements will arrive until it is too late.

Reflex
25-11-2006, 19:33
Quoted from Gaunt's Ghosts First triple novel:

The troops had been given enough of the local currency to make do while they were on leave.

------

So, it would appear guardsmen get all the cash they need when they need it.

I would also assume their families get something...

tanith... what families... ahhhahahaha

CELS
25-11-2006, 20:08
I'm with the Lord Solar (Getz) on this. First of all, the prospect of honour and glory will only drive people so far. When you've been shredded by shrapnel, lost your reproductive organs and have to carry your urine around in an external bladder around for the rest of your life due to battle injuries, a medal won't keep you smiling for long. You'll want money.

Furthermore, if you put twenty thousand retired Guardsmen (no, they're not all killed, despite what impression you might have from the more simplistic fluff) on a world without money or education, what do you think will happen? These people have been making a living from killing for 10 years or more. Will they integrate well if they have to work at Emperor's Burgers? Probably not.

This is all conjecture, of course, but in my opinion, Guardsmen are paid, and paid well. If they die, the money goes to their families.

Voronwe[MQ]
25-11-2006, 20:27
Soldiers throughout history have accepted that they are all too often paid infrequent.

Just wanted to add it.

BodhiTree
25-11-2006, 20:47
They're allowed to live. That's payment right there!

I'm sure a lot of people fall asleep in their underhive/agri-dome/whatever and wake up in a local recruiting station. It would really depend on what kind of planet they come from that dictates their payment. That would also influence if their families got any compensation.

Griefbringer
25-11-2006, 21:05
If they die, the money goes to their families.

I would say that this would depend on the home planet in question. The home planet is responsible for the unit until it is loaded on an Imperial navy vessel taking it off-world (either to man a garrison somewhere, or to a warzone as reinforcements), and it would be logical for it to hold any responsibilities towards any kin remaining there. However, once the unit is out of the system, the responsibility for maintenance falls to the Imperium and to what ever system they are deployed into (though they will probably leave their home system with a decent amount of supplies, to see them through the interstellar trip and at least through the initial action after that).

The troubles in interestellar communication and trade, and the complexity of the Imperial administration, would make it very tricky for any central administration to manage for payments to the families of any deceased.

First off, they would need to find out if the person is dead in the first case - while individual companies and even regiments might be easily able to keep track of their losses, and these would be passed higher on in the hierarchy. However, if the unit ends up in a bad action, it might end up losing not only its men but all the records it had, and the survivors might end up getting scattered or hastily amalgamated into new units. And individual combatants might end up Missing in Action, so that it is not known whether they have been killed and the body got lost, deserted, captured alive, amalgamated to another unit or something else. Even once the conflict is over and some sort of records put together, it might take time for these to get off-world - astropath transmission has limited capacity, so such lower priority information might get just shipped as mail on normal interstellar craft, meaning it would take some time to reach any central administration.

Even once the information would reach the central administration, it would take some time to figure out if the former guardsman has relatives on his homeplanet, how much would be a decent payment and how to send the payment there in a form that would be useful in the local economy. Then this would need to be shipped there, again with the interstellar transportation with all of its delays. Overall, it would take a lot of time and resources to handle something that is not really of a priority to the Imperium itself - they are only responsible for taking care of the guardsman himself, not for any deals that were done between him or his kin and the officials of the home world at the time of the recruiting.

I would say that any payments to relatives (regardless of whether the guardsman is dead or alive, and at home or off-system) would be on the responsibility of the home world, and depend on local practices. If anything would be paid to compensate for the loss of the life - the knowledge of which could take long to reach back to the world, if it ever reaches there - would be again down to the local practices, though the dead guardsman would most likely at least get his name honourably mentioned as a martyr of mankind as part of the services of the local Imperial cult.

BTW: there are parts of the Imperial guard that are actually recruited amongst orphans of Imperial officials!

Sarge
25-11-2006, 21:15
I would like to bring out two further points:

1.) What does a guardsman need money for? Clothing, food and accommodation are arranged by the Guard itself (though the quality would depend on location), and the amount of other material possessions an individual guardsman can have is rather limited (since he needs to be able to carry them on his pack together with his actually service gear). This pretty much leaves recreational usage (alcohol, drugs, gambling, all sorts of public and private entertainment, and other such luxuries) as the only thing they could do with their money.

2.) When can the guardsman use his salary? On an actual warzone the chances of finding somewhere to spend it are rather low, and on interstellar transportation they are likely to be limited (there just might be some sort of canteen where to buy small stuff, though). However, when on a garrison duty, without an immediate risk of action, there would be possibility for the guardsmen to have short leaves regularly - presuming that there is a non-hostile civilian population present, this would give them some opportunity to spend their money amongst this population for recreational purposes.

So I would presume that, while on a garrison duty, guardsmen would be given some small allowance (perhaps financed from taxes collected from the local population), that they would be able to spend on their free time. Also, after a campaign when the survivors are placed on garrison duty, they might be given some extra salary to allow them to celebrate a bit.

Of course, the situation would depend a bit on the area - if there is no real civilian population, or if they do not have a monetary economy, then there would be relatively little that the guardsmen could do with the money (unless there is some sort of canteen provided by the Guard itself).

Each Guardsman has family, a mother a father, possibly even a wife and kid of his own, so while he may not see said money, most likely his service guarantees his family back home doesn't starve to death, and can get by fairly well.

Think of it in today's standards, sure you don't see much money upfront when you join, but that's because they put it in an account for your family in the event of your death, or when you actually get the chance to use the money later on. As for the Imperium not supporting the families of the deceased and soon to be deceased, that's highly unlikely as it's in the Imperium's best interest to keep up the production of war materials (weapons, ammunition, clothing, food, human beings), and the best way to do so is to keep those people in working order, now ofcourse this allows the Imperium to pay the Guardsmen low wages as they get everything they need in the time being, but it means that they support the families of the Guardsmen, and even possibly compensate them upon his death.

Or an even better example would be america during WW2, where men enlisted in the thousands to fight in the war, leaving a economic gap back home to be taken up by women. While America rationed supplies back home, and accepted the female work force in droves, those over in Europe saw some money, but the most of it was put away in savings accounts for family use. Thus the institution of the GI bill for all Veterans who returned alive, there was no way to compensate every veteran with monetary means, so instead they offered them higher educational services supported by the government.

So pay is most definately important for the family back home, why else would most Guard fight after all? Not for the Emperor, not because it's right, but because they're families are on the line. Now compensation through other means, most definately, especially through means that the government can skirt the monetary cost of the lose of life through veteran systems. Why pay a million men who won't live to see that money, especially when you can promise them that money when they return alive, or offer a fraction of that money to the families of the deceased.

Now definately on worlds such as Cadia, a more communistic command style of economics would come into effect with soldiers being born into the guard, if not figuratively, than literally.

So it depends on the world, but most likely unless they are a Fortress world like Cadia, they will use some system of pay and compensation, as well as veteran systems to keep their men in line to fight the enemy.

Sandlemad
25-11-2006, 21:16
Don't forget Right of Settlement. That's a bit of a bonus for retiring guardsmen, isn't it?
Obviously it doesn't happen to every or even most regiments but I'd say theres a great deal of worlds out there which are controlled by a land-based ruling class descended from guardsmen planters, which might be pushed as a sort of a "Go to a new world" style thing, rather like the colonial days.

I'd suspect that with some regiments the case is rather like in the roman empire. A legionary retires, returns home, gets a lump sum and gets a farm going. Or whatever. That brilliant short story, whose name I can't remember, in the Eisenhorn omnibus illustrates what life is like for many guard after they retire.
It's also worth remembering that with what they have likely seen and fought, many of those who get to retiring age will be psychologically crushed. They'd either fight on until they die or wind up in a sororitas home, of which I'd suspect there are a great many across the galaxy.

Capt. Kaihara
25-11-2006, 21:53
They get paid because otherwise, what would they gamble with?

deathskullork
25-11-2006, 21:57
I think the way it goes is families give their first born in exchange for medicines, machinery etc. I think I read this in the catachan codex. Of course there are exeptions, vostroyans for example who give their men as aform of redemtion.

Eetion
25-11-2006, 22:28
Id like to think that the families get compensation.
But given the fact that the departmento munitorum isnt sure of how many soldiers it has, and the administratum being the unreliable and slow service it is. Any compensation may reach the family decades after the soldiesr death, maybe not even in his immediate families lifetime.

Why Bother?

Mr Zephy
25-11-2006, 22:31
Given what the fluff says about the Administratum, the immediate family being dead wouldn't put them off. Imagine having a sad note that your great great grandfather who was sent off to a war far away was dead :wtf:

Iracundus
25-11-2006, 22:43
The comparisons with modern centralized nation states that pay the families of deceased soldiers is not a good one to make as the Imperium is not such an entity. The Imperium can't/won't even make the effort to transport surviving soldiers back to their homeplanet, so it's not going to go to the effort of tracking down individual families on a planet to pay monetary compensation. Let's not forget too that some Guardsmen are recruited from segments of planetary populations such as gangers, that are beyond the bureaucratic tracking of the Adeptus.

At best, I could see Guardsmen being given some sort of enlistment bonus upon volunteering. They could then give it to families if they are so inclined or spend it all immediately at the nearest bar or brothel.

The purpose of pay for a Guardsmen is as I iterated earlier: morale. Promising land at the end of their career can only go so far as that can be decades away and troops need more immediate motivation in the meantime. Commissars can only go so far through coercive means. The fact the Guard has to think about morale at all means Commissars are not the 100% foolproof fix some people may think. Payment, whether in scrip or local currency, then serves as a relatively cheap form of keeping the troops from widespread mutiny. If the company store effect is subtle enough, then the troops may effectively be working for next to nothing but don't realize it, and that is a far more insidious and effective means of controlling them than having the Commissar going around executing people regularly in non-combat zones.

Griefbringer
26-11-2006, 07:28
Each Guardsman has family, a mother a father

Not necessarily. Quoting from 2nd edition IG codex, page 21: "Storm Troopers are recruited from the orphan sons of Imperial officials from all over the galaxy. The families of men who die in the Emperor's service are looked after well by the missions of the Imperial Cult, the most famous of which are the Schola Progenium."

NashTrickster
26-11-2006, 11:16
There is AFAIK nothing in the IG Codices that suggests they are paid...

However, there is several instances in stories of the BL which suggest so: The quote from the Gaunt Ghost's novels mentionned earlier is one. In one of the Ciaphas Cain short stories, it is mentionned that the guards go to a brothel, so they must have some sort of currency to pay for the girls' favours. In one of the Eisenhorn short stories, he interviews a retired guard vet who used the savings from his years in the guard to buy himself a bar...
So, I guess it all boils down to whether you want to accept the BL as 'canon' fluff or not... :p

Getz
26-11-2006, 11:28
With regard to the Guard Codex, it never really talks about the life of a common Guardsman, so the fact that it doesn't mention pay doesn't mean they don't get paid.

To be honest, I can't see it as being the kindof thing GW will want to make a fuss about in the fluff, but from a rational point of view, Guardsmen must get paid in some way. You simply can't make that many men fight for nothing...

Sojourner
26-11-2006, 11:33
Very little in fluff, but from a common sense point of view it's unfathomable that they might not be paid, unless they're penal troops or conscripts - for the reasons mentioned above.

I imagine that when an Imperial guard force arrives on a world with an intact (if battered) civilian society, the departmento munitorum 'arranges' for the soldiers to be supplied with a measure of the local currency - perhaps in exchange for a proportion of their 'real' wage as paid by their home planet's military authority. After all - if they were paid in the PDF, their job hasn't changed, they're just subcontracted to the Imperial Guard now. The Departmento Munitorum periodically contacts their soldiers' home planets with data on who's still alive, so that their service pay can be held in arrears for them.

Raises an interesting idea for a story - a Guard veteran who musters out on some hellhole with no way of returning or contacting home, trying to get hold of the money held in his name. Perhaps rogue traders run a lively trade in 'bonds forwarding' - that is, recovering soldiers' assets nand returning them in exchange for a small (or slightly larger) share...

TheHereticsPaintbrush
26-11-2006, 11:37
If you really wanted to go in depth as to whether or not they get paid....

Regular Enlisted - Yes, or No

Conscripts - Yes, or No

Conscripts, over a year in service - Yes, or No

Indentured Soldiers, (tithed or given as tax payment) - Yes, or No

Storm Troopers - Yes or No

Zzarchov
26-11-2006, 16:23
In a feudal society.. a few acres of land to farm could be enough to die for. Because actually OWNING land is much better than being a farmer on those same few acres as a serf.

While fundamentally the same in practice, the status and chance for advancement that seperates a serf and a yeomen (and their descendants) is well worth dying for.

Sekhmet
26-11-2006, 18:31
Read the Gaunt's Ghosts books... there are often situations where they're on leave. They also have a lot of down time during inter-stellar voyages and have to do something with their time. The books mention a lot of "extras" accompanying a Guard Regiment, like black market vendors, prostitutes, other forms of entertainment... people of all types.


Basically it comes down to this: There WILL be times where Guardsmen are not doing anything. Do you want an armed force standing idle? If you don't provide them with things to do, they'll find their own entertainment... which is rarely a good thing.

Even on the front lines, unless the situation is truly desperate (last stand with no evac or surrender possible), you always find a way to cycle out troops a little at a time to get some R&R. If anyone (besides like... space marines...) stays at edge for too long, they'll start to lose that edge. It'll spiral downward until they're ineffective as a soldier. Thus, R&R isn't just to "be nice," it's an investment in more alert and higher morale troops. The easiest way to provide R&R is pay and provide services, in one way or another. Providing services may just be allowing civilians to "set up shop" far behind the lines, or a visit to a friendly town.

cailus
26-11-2006, 23:28
b/c if they didn't i believe the economy would collapse with the onset of inflation.

Only if they have a free market economy which they probably don't (in Cadia anyway).

Cadia is/was essentially a huge military base. The government would provde everything needed to supply soldiers/citizens in order to maintain military readiness. This would include housing, food, clothing and all the other necessities of life.

As a strategically important area, it is quite possible that the Cadian government gets some assistance/subsidies from Terra in order to be able to maintain the huge numbers of troops.

Back to the topic - I actually don't think that the IG would be paid. Most of them would be conscripted into the military and hence not there voluntarily and therefore not requireing an incentive or renumeration for services provided.

I also don't think volunteers would be paid either. Remember that for the most part the Imperium promotes the concepts of self sacrifice and duty to the Imperium. Hence volunteers would be seen as fulfilling their duties and responsibilities to the Imperium.

However it could be possible that PDF units that are seconded to Guard might be paid as they might have been paid soldiers while they were PDF. I suspect that such money would come from the planetary government's coffers and not Imperial funds.

The IG is not a modern 21st century professional army. It is a brutal organisation that has no regard for human life and in which religious dogma and notions of duty are used to justify horrific atrocities and the use of soldiers as mere cannon fodder.

Getz
27-11-2006, 00:18
The IG is not a modern 21st century professional army. It is a brutal organisation that has no regard for human life and in which religious dogma and notions of duty are used to justify horrific atrocities and the use of soldiers as mere cannon fodder.

None of which means you don't pay the soldiers. Unpaid Soldiers have a habit of mutinying and whilst the Commissars may be adept at keeping discipline when only one or two soldiers are thumbing their noses at authority, if a whole platoon, company or even brigade mutinied the Commissars would last all of about... ooh, thirty seconds. :eyebrows:

They may not get paid very much or they may get paid in booty, but if they didn't get paid anything at all then mass defections to the ruinous powers would be a lot more common than they are...

Griefbringer
27-11-2006, 08:07
However it could be possible that PDF units that are seconded to Guard might be paid as they might have been paid soldiers while they were PDF. I suspect that such money would come from the planetary government's coffers and not Imperial funds.


But about the only way to get to IG is through PDF units (barring some exceptions like storm troopers, commissars and perhaps abhumans) - there are no direct IG recruiting stations posted around.

It is the duty of the planetary governments to raise their own PDF units - means to do so are up to the individual world (volunteers, conscripts, militia, using existing warrior caste or so) as well as the maintenance of the said units. So it is up to the individual world to decide what sort of a contract the individuals in PDF have - but it is in the governor's best interests to ensure their loyalty, so that they would not revolt (and would stay on his side in case of a revolt or uprising), thus making it recommendable for him to make sure that the PDF troops are given sufficiently beneficial terms of service.

Downside of joining the PDF is that due to the quota system (planetary governments being required to contribute annually on average 10% of the strenght of their PDF forces to IG) you could end up getting to IG and shipped off-world. In which case your contract with the planetary government ends and a new contract with Imperium (through the Imperial Guard) begins - though depending on the individual planet, there might be some terms of the PDF contract that could stay valid in such case (these would affect remuneration to relatives while away or in the case of eventual death, or financial benefits in the unlikely case of the person ever making it back to the home world), either due to the cultural habits and values of the world (eg. remains of old warrior culture of rewarding warriors returning from campaigns against enemy tribes) or due to need to get good volunteers to join the forces. However, it could be difficult for the planetary government to make any continuous payments to units off-world (though when initially setting off-world, it could be possible - if transportation space allows - for the regiment to receive an amount of luxury products that could be "sold" to the men of the regiment during the transport and afterwards while they last, allowing the regiment to create its own mini-economy run by a regimental script paid to the soldiers that they can only use in the regimental store - though the products bought could themselves be used as a sort of currency for bartering with outsiders).

Whether joining IG would be appreciated amongst the PDF members could vary by the world - while it has clear drawbacks (being shipped off-world), it also has sense of adventure to it (relatively few people ever travel off-world), it can be a status thing (bringing great honour to individual and his family if he manages to join in), and if your home planet is bad enough (death world, hive world, waste world etc.) then the chance of getting to some other world would likely be a significant improvement. Attempts by planetary governors to dump the worst of their PDF troops into IG are not likely to be appreciated by Imperial officials.

As for paying the men once in the IG, it definitely makes sense to keep supplying them with some luxuries/entertainment to keep up their motivation and freshen their minds, and instead of running a strict quota system (eg. everyone getting a bottle of booze 8 times a year and a visit to red light district 4 times), it is easier to instead pay the men in some form of currency that they can then use to purchase these products and services.

As for the economics of the Imperium, remember that Imperium plays on the inter-stellar macro-economic level: they do not care how the economics of an individual world works, as long as that world can fulfill its quota of products and materials to be given to the Imperium. Salaries of the guardsmen are an expense only to the Imperium if it involves shipping something (either the luxury products themselves, or something else that can be locally exchanged for the luxuries) from off-world to the regiment in a particular world - however, if the planet where the regiment is currently located can be made to provide such products and services to the regiment (from whose protection they are benefiting at the moment) for no compensation from the Imperium (in form of reduction of quotas or direct material compensation), then they do not cost anything to the Imperium itself.

five01st
27-11-2006, 08:44
Do you want an armed force standing idle? If you don't provide them with things to do, they'll find their own entertainment... which is rarely a good thing.

To push the point, has anyone seen the thread about the Emperor and the Horus Heresy? One good arguement started that because the Emperium was fast running out of enemies, the Emperor needed something to rise and keep the SM from running out of enemies.

Chiron
27-11-2006, 09:36
Read the Gaunt's Ghosts books... there are often situations where they're on leave.

I'm pretty sure in Ghostmaker(?) theres also a mention of the unit being issued with rations of liquor on board ship.

Sikkukkut
27-11-2006, 10:03
And in The Armour of Contempt there's a good passage near the start about the giant shadow economy that every Guard force trails behind it, known as the "followers on the strength". Food sellers, gambling joints, brothels, fortune-tellers, booze joints, you name it, all tucked away in the "swelter decks" on board the Guard mega-transports. Most of them seem to do business either with barter or in Guard scrip.

Griefbringer
27-11-2006, 10:54
And in The Armour of Contempt there's a good passage near the start about the giant shadow economy that every Guard force trails behind it, known as the "followers on the strength". Food sellers, gambling joints, brothels, fortune-tellers, booze joints, you name it, all tucked away in the "swelter decks" on board the Guard mega-transports.

I guess I should start reading more of the Black Library IG novels.

Interestingly, such forces of camp followers (traders, craftsmen, mistresses, families, servants etc.) trailed after military forces on campaign from ancient times to the renessaince era, and they could have quite high numbers (at times even outnumbering the actual soldiers). Doesn't sound all that unbelievable that such civilians would also attach themselves to many Imperial Guard regiments, even though there are certain hazards involved (like following a regiment that is sent to reinforce a world invaded by Orks). I guess there would be some sort of regimental official lisencing such civilians (and making sure that they stay within limits allowed for them).

The idea of them being allowed aboard the interstellar transports sounded a bit odd to me initially, but considering that those transports are HUGE and that there might usually be some spare room left after the essentials (guardsmen, tanks, ammo and other military supplies) have been loaded, there would be no particular harm in allowing civilians aboard. However, should transportation space be in short supply, they might not exactly be high priority passengers.

Actually, the transports themselves (and other Imperial interstellar craft) might also have such lots of civilian enterpreneurs tucked up in otherwise unused corners of the ship, selling various services to the crew. This could even include former crew-members who are no longer able to serve, but have wanted to stay aboard their old craft (after decades in space, they might no longer feel at home on the ground of a planet) and having been granted a lisence by the ship officials to stay aboard the ship. Add in all the orphans adopted as mascots and other odd ways that civilians might get aboard (some admirals apparently even have their private harems aboard!).

ultramarine123
29-11-2006, 20:53
I had an idea when reading this. the normal IG trooper would be given a card or something. then when ever he would go on leave he would swipe his card somewhere and withdraw what he would need from his "bank account".

that would make alot of sense to maintian the money of billions of troopers. i would stop other soldiers stealing thiermoney. and for the pay they would get paid for every week they stayed alive starting from training.

Sparda
29-11-2006, 23:16
[QUOTE=five01st;1099390 what was that BL book's title again? [/QUOTE]

I think the one your thinking of is 15 hours.
I would imagin that some gaurdsman get paid, some dont for a reason, and some the Imperium doesnt even care about, as thell last only a few days in battle.

Minister
30-11-2006, 16:09
Point in support of pay, Armageddon 3:

Commissar Yarrick has quite rightly assumed that due to the Catachan's upbringing on one of the harshest Death Worlds in the galaxy, they would be more than capable of taking on the Feral Orks in this region, even on home ground. In fact, many a Catachan fighter has described patrolling the steaming, Ork-infested jungles as akin to paid leave.

Gondorian
30-11-2006, 16:53
One of the problems here is that some poeple are regarding the imperial guard as one fixed organisation. While a guardsman is still a guardsman, factors such as pay vary as much as equipment and battle doctrine. Each regiment is slightly different and most regiments are from different homeworlds. So while your gang-scum plucked fresh off of the streets may get nothing, your trained and drilled soldiers from a relatively civilised world could get payment.

Not all worlds have the same currency, however, I'm assuming that as each one pays tithes to Terra that the Imperial credit has an exchange rate for each world's normal currency. When a guardsman gets paid it would probably be given in local currency or imperial credits depending on where that guardsman was.

In regard to families, there is something from the Gaunt's Ghosts books where Gaunt talks about sending letters home to tell the families the fates of the men (This was obviusly his first regiment not the Tanith as their is no longer an address to send it to). So it is SOMETIMES but not always possible for messages and therefore credits to be transfered back and forth between regiment and home world. Some lucky regiments even stand a good chance of seeing home once in a while and have a chance of retiring there. However, these are the exception rather than the rule I fear.

BrainFireBob
30-11-2006, 17:30
At the minimum, they have the satisfaction of doing their duty to the Emperor.

That said, I wouldn't be surprised if they were paid, but on a "upon discharge" situation as the rule.

I base this on the fact that Guard regiments, like Marine chapters, can "claim" planets by right of conquest and have first pick of the choice lands amongst the other colonists, with the flipside being the newly discharged Imperial Guard become the initial enlisted PDF for the planet, with the CO becoming the initial governor. (See the Baran fluff from Epic).

For Guard units not part of Crusades/conquests, discharge on their homeworlds with accumulated pay keeps them from stressing the system while making the Guard appear benevolent- all while keeping operating costs fairly low, since mortality rates are fairly high.

Most realistically, I see the Guard operating like Bretonnian men-at-arms, on paper, a generous salary, but with room and board "provided" by deducting it against wages owed. At the end of your term, whatever you haven't "spent" goes home with you, in local planet currency dependent on its tithe to provide men.

So, for feral worlds they may very well just let them keep their guns and armor- in local currency with black-smith level technology, flak-suits would be worth a good twenty years of service easily.

electricblooz
30-11-2006, 18:02
But about the only way to get to IG is through PDF units (barring some exceptions like storm troopers, commissars and perhaps abhumans) - there are no direct IG recruiting stations posted around.

I'm not sure about this - Clearly in 15 Hours, the "new fish" was conscripted directly into the IG as part of the planet's title of men. Thus it stands that the IG does has some aspects of a modern professional army.

In addition, I believe there is a passage in "For the Emperor" (Caiphas Cain) where Cain and an another IG officer visit a local bar and the other officer "buys" drinks...

Brandir
30-11-2006, 18:30
The guardsmen will receive an allowance based upon their rank. At the end of their engagement they would probably receive a grant based upon rank and length of service.

Soldiers need pay for those 'extras', even when fighting for the 'greater good'. Soviet conscripts were paid during the Great Patriotic War. Even those in penal legions in the Red Army received an allowance.

Kegluneq
30-11-2006, 21:37
There's also references in the GG books to 'credits', which I assume would be a currency based on galactic economics as a whole, convered to local currencies when the situation requires. The amount of payment (and indeed length of service) is probably greatly varied, though. I'd assume it would be down to the individual commanders, and the assets available to him, what each trooper would actually get.

As for mortality rates in the IG - remember that they're the front line against the Imperium's biggest foes; they're not comparable to modern day armies then, who might find themselves in either dangerous warzones or relatively safe billets. If a planet is relatively stable, it'll likely have a PDF or comparable military force to do the relatively tame work. The Imperial Guard are the ones being moved from lethal warzone to lethal warzone, and your chances of making it to retirement would be significantly affected by that. Not that it's completely unlikey, but this is still a universe in which IG can die in their millions.

stevegb
01-12-2006, 06:01
I perosnally like to imagine that they would, as if or when the time comes that a particular IG regiment obtains the rights of conquest upon a world, they will need something to help them in their sudden role change from warrior to citizen.

Also, another queston; do the families of a Guardsmen who dies in the field receive any sort of compensation from the Imperial authorities; I've always wondered that, whether the numbers of casualties would simply bleed the Imperium dry if they even gave a thought to those bereaving kin?

I thought if both parents died in service then their kids get to go to the brainwashing school, free of charge and are cared for so they can become stormtroopers.

Sekhmet
01-12-2006, 06:14
I thought if both parents died in service then their kids get to go to the brainwashing school, free of charge and are cared for so they can become stormtroopers.

Or commisars, inquisitors, sisters of battle... there's lots of things that come from the Schola.

Minister
01-12-2006, 10:44
This is only in the case of Imperial Adepts, not grunts and dogfaces. I suspect that the Adeptus title is part and parcel of an officer's commisssion.