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Eblis_Dead_Forever
25-11-2006, 19:44
Yes this is one of those a friend was told this by someone that works at GW things. So feel free to take it with a pinch of salt as I am not sold on it myself. But never the less I thought that it was worth passing on, as it is quiet interesting.

Apparently the Dark Eldar might be out next year as there is a gap in the release schedule, I was told this would be round the middle of next year. Like I said I'm not convinced as the Dark Angels are due as well as the Orks next year, which would the two 40k codexs we usually get in a year.

GW did actually consider dropping the Dark Eldar but because of the amount of support for them as a race they have decided to keep them. The range is being reworked by the guys that did the wood elf and eldar models


New Models:-

The Warriors are being completely overhauled, think of the new eldar models in chaos armour. I was told that these got passed round all the GW staff and that they are very impressive. The logic behind the new look is that Commorragh was indeed destroyed during the Eye of Terror and these are a new sect of Dark Eldar.

Scrouges, Grotesques, Mandrakes are being redone completely.

Wyches and Hellions are staying the same with more models being added.

Reavers as are the Haemonculus stayin the same as there is alot of support for the models.

New Dark Eldar Lord models.

Lelith will get a new model, Drazhar is staying and Kruellagh is being replaced by a new special character.

Incubi, the Raiders, the warp beasts and the Ravagers are unknown if they will change or not.

Didn't hear anything about new units or changes to the rules.


Like I said I'm not sure how much if any of this is actually true or not but I guess time will tell.

tuesday_the_pixie
25-11-2006, 19:51
All of that makes sense and follows the current release trend (New plastics and a few additions here and there) But GW are going after the Cash-cows at the moment and I just don't think they would see Dark Elder as being that.

I love the idea of the DE being redone though, they are a very cool and under developed race.

Necro Angelo
25-11-2006, 19:54
I'd definately like to see a re-worked Dark Eldar list; they've been left unchanged for far too long.

Eblis_Dead_Forever
25-11-2006, 19:54
I don't see it happening either as soon as next year myself but given that we have no real idea what the release schedule looks like for next year I wouldn't be all that surprised.

Sildani
25-11-2006, 20:59
Well, a couple months ago it was reported that the Dark Kin were starting the "conceptual" phase. The Eldar were reported doing that very thing about two years ago, so it's possible, especially since plastics prototyping can be done much faster now.

I really hope they're done justice - the S&M look didn't do much for me, but neither will "Eldar in Chaosy armor". I'd like to see something fresh.

Acolyte of Bli'l'ab
25-11-2006, 21:06
Personally I wish they'd get rid of the "eldar in chaos armour" look and do something more interesting, or dump them completely.

WokeUpDead
25-11-2006, 21:14
'eldar in chaos armour' ... hm, now that surely won't be the models that make me a DE player.. what's next: Eldanids? Eldcrons? Eldar in squat-armour with beards?

kobraburdz
25-11-2006, 21:44
ummmm Im wondering how could Commorragh have been destroyed if theres been a lot of mention of it during the Medusa V campaign?

Didnt No'akei go back to Commorragh victoriously to try and overthrow Vect?

And its clearly been stated before that Medusa V happened after the Eye of Terror Campaign in the WH40K timeline Check the fluff of the official site and from White Dwarf)

Bregalad
25-11-2006, 21:51
Nice rumours, and might be true. Although normal rumour see 2009 as scheduled release date. Might be difficult to get so much background till then, except if they take C.S.Gotos Eldar novels as a base ;)

I was expecting one of those "When will DE be redone, I like them" threads.

Necro Angelo
25-11-2006, 22:10
You sounded pretty sure about all the new models they were planning on making, but did you just hear all that off a store member?

Dosadi
25-11-2006, 22:13
I can guarantee that the wyches, incubi, hellions and any other model that was designed by Chris Fitzpatrick will be re-done. You can take that to the bank. Look for the same sculpters that did the new eldar to re design them. Juan Diaz and Mark Harrison.
I don't recall Commorragh being destroyed? Maybe it was in a bit of fluff I missed. I don't really buy this idea as GW has alrady stated that they are not going to advance the 40k timeline in the current edition. Since Commorragh stood for thousands of years in the 40k universe I can't see them writing the city out of the game. What I can believe is that the new Dark Eldar will be more closely aligned with cosairs and other "outcast" eldar.
I do believe that the miniature line will see a complete overhaul. It's been said before by many GW studio people that the Dark Eldar will get a completely new range of models.
As for the "eldar in Chaos armour" DARK ELDAR ARE NOT CHAOS ELDAR!!!!

Dosadi

Gearux
26-11-2006, 01:10
Didnt No'akei go back to Commorragh victoriously to try and overthrow Vect?

She did, but the other DE who alligned with her betrayed her.

I think in the new codex we'll see more emphasis on things like reaver bikes etc.

Marshal2Crusaders
26-11-2006, 01:12
I think Brimstone nerfed the credibility of this and the blood angels thread.

Jon_Irenicus
26-11-2006, 12:08
Well, plastic wyches would be nice, seeing as they now can be taken as troops under certain circumstances. Anyway, I just think that this was the place to say this. Otherwise, I completely dismiss as b*llocks the contents of this thread.

Iron Buddha
26-11-2006, 21:59
i find it kind of hard to think the reavers wont be changed, as well as the homunculi, and i would imagine that the warp beasts will be changed just because of how dated the models look, and i would say the same for the incubi, but is drahzar is staying the same then the incubi would most likely stay the same so that they match. mind you this is just educated speculation on my part.

Now what i would like to see is more individuality in the models, I mean, they're pirates arent they? they always looked too clean and militarized.

just my two cents.

Souleater
26-11-2006, 22:03
She did, but the other DE who alligned with her betrayed her.

I think in the new codex we'll see more emphasis on things like reaver bikes etc.

Yeah, that was really bad. We finally get a bit of campaign action that could have changed our army and they decide to ignore it because they want to keep Ass Dribble :mad:

Plastic wyches would be nice if they look good enough ie the same standard as the WHFB Witch Elves. If not, I'll take metal, please.

Melchiah
26-11-2006, 23:50
But GW are going after the Cash-cows at the moment and I just don't think they would see Dark Elder as being that.

This is ture, but look what happened once the woodelves got that face lift. SM, Choas, Tau, Orcs, Nids, And eldar being some of the brand names now, their might just take a gamble with the DE and just give it go....wait what am i taking about this is GW after all.

Brothergrimm
27-11-2006, 04:21
"eldar in Chaos armour"

You mean they aren't already in it??

nightgash
27-11-2006, 06:01
Um Slaanesh wants to eat their souls so why would they want to be in Chaos armour?

Maybe he meant that the armour will look like the current chaos marine armour with runes and inscriptions etc

Acolyte of Bli'l'ab
27-11-2006, 06:06
Um Slaanesh wants to eat their souls so why would they want to be in Chaos armour?

I think he was being sarcastic, because to some of us they just look like Chaos Eldar.

muskrat
27-11-2006, 08:34
*shakes head* I don't get DE fans...

You hate the current armor, yet say changing it to more of a chaos look (imo, less sleek, more bulk, same spikes) isn't anything...

how do you want it then? They are evil, and have to be seperated somehow from the actual nice guy elv- eldar.

Then again, this is coming from someone who thinks the DE should either give in to chaos, or be taken behind the shed and introduced to old yeller...

Sildani
27-11-2006, 12:48
Hum, hum. It's a tough thing. I myself would be satisfied with a twisted take on the Craftworld Eldar, kinda like how the Dark Elves are a twisted version of the High Elves.

Oh, and in my opinion, the Raider and Reaver kits have gotta be overhauled. Way too much "greek galley/Jabba's Sail Barge" for me.

Atherakhia
27-11-2006, 13:03
you know what, what's wrong with Dark Eldar Warriors looking like Craftworld Eldar Guardians, but without the soulstones, and maybe with a few extra spikes. Oh, and a Shuriken Cannon :D

Also what i'd like to see is Dark Eldar heavy support platforms (like maybe a Dark Lance on a support platform), and also a Dark Eldar variant of the Nightspinner (i think that was a very Dark Eldar weapon to use).

Another thing that needs re-doing is their apparent "anti-psyker" capability. Surely they'd be able to come up with something that negates psychic powers or something.

It'll be interesting to see which way they go, seeing as how GW has handed the title of "Collectors Of Souls" to the Necrons.... Slaanesh isn't going to be happy....

malika
27-11-2006, 13:11
*shakes head* I don't get DE fans...

You hate the current armor, yet say changing it to more of a chaos look (imo, less sleek, more bulk, same spikes) isn't anything...

how do you want it then? They are evil, and have to be seperated somehow from the actual nice guy elv- eldar.



Look at this discussion (http://anargo-sector.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=348) for the armour. The Dark Eldar are decadent and selfish, the term "evil" is just...well an oversimplification, its oh you must either be human (and thus nice) or evil muahhaaha. The Dark Eldar are more like the pre fall Eldar and the Craftworlders are the seperatists who fled from the madness.

I like the idea of the Dark Eldar being the Dark Eldar and not simply Chaos Eldar! But please GW...make them more than merely S&M Eldar!

RampagingRavener
27-11-2006, 13:19
I've said it before, and I'm saying it again. Dark Eldar are NOT Chaos Eldar, and if GW decide to turn the DE into Chaos-worshippers then I'm quitting the army, taking my old DE models, and playing Craftworlders with them using the existing Dark Eldar fluff.

I can see individual Dark Eldar falling to chaos secrety. I can see Kabals entering into pacts with lesser, undivided Daemons for mutual, short-term benefits. But the whole culture does not follow Chaos in any way, shape, or form.

For the record, I quite like the current armour. All it needs is less huge spikes (I leave the optional ones you get in the kits off) and more subtle barbs and details.

Varath- Lord Impaler
27-11-2006, 13:26
Damn right!

Make the armour sleeker, not spikes, but perhaps long thin blades on places such as the forarms.

I'd say make the weapons sound a tad more imposing. Splinter rifle really just dosnt have a kick

"OUCH! what the hell was that?!"

Just make everything sleekand curvy and then taper into blades. NOT SPIKES. Blades.

Lots of knives on the bodies of the warriors.

Mandrakes look more ninja-ey and less frankensteins monster-ey

Wytches are alright, make some of them look less mannish though.

Give reaver jetbikes trailing chains!

I dont mind the vehicles much, just the weapons need an overhaul.

malika
27-11-2006, 13:35
I like the Mandrakes as crude/primitive/savage creatures infected by the warp. And more background material would be great too!

Ozendorph
27-11-2006, 16:12
I think of the Dark Eldar as the bastard children of Ultra-Suave vampires and the Reavers from "Firefly".

Yep, more blades and sleek, overlapping plates. They should have similar base bodysuits to the CW eldar. Just say "no" to spikes and giant cone-helmets.

Personally I dig the splinter rifles/cannons. It's easier to drag the victims aboard the slave-ships when they're in blinding agony.

I hope the Raiders stay, or at least don't change much. Nothing says "I'm not particularly concerned with safety" quite like leaping off of a bare-metal airframe, rocketing along 20' over the battlefield.

sodapopinski
27-11-2006, 16:24
I imagine them wearing armor like CW eldar with "batman-like" detalis: little spikes in the forearm and stuff like that (not the pointi bat-ears)

Ozendorph
27-11-2006, 16:44
Sinister utility belts?

;)

Captain Stuart
27-11-2006, 17:08
I started DE when 3rd edition came out so here's my thoughts.

1. With the exception of a very few models, the entire DE mini line looks like drek.
2. Enough with the spikes motif. And while I'm at it, please, please, please get rid of top knots in at least 1 army! Spikes have made my army difficult to transport, allows models to cling to my clothing as I move them, and in general are too fragile for a table top game.
3. The DE is the best expression of my play style - aggressive, reliant on mobility, and heavy on the troops. I never used half the units because of the models' appearance. I also got the impression that while there are 2 main themes in the DE list - haemies and lords and their assorted minions, the Codex doesn't really lend itself to theming anything other than an all raider list.

To be honest, I wouldn't mind the DE disappearing all together. I think GW could do something with them, but here just seems to be no effort on GW's part. I don't think the DE ever won a battle report in WD. The DE have almost no background, relying a lot on "The Torturer's Tale". What background is available is even more 1 dimensional than the bulk of the already Imperial-centric PoV. It doesn't help marketing the list when they are all seen as masochist raiders intent on slavery. Can you imagine little Timmy trying to explain to his mom why he wants to buy an army that sucks souls and takes slaves for no noble purpose?

It won't surprise me if DE are the last 4th edition codex. With all the forces the 40K developers have to work on and their release schedule, I think the game would benefit as a whole if there were less things to work on. With the dearth of attention to DE shown fro mthe company, I'd rather they drop DE altogether than having essentially 1 codex for 10 years.

Yes, I'm sour on the DE when I think about what they could have been.

Acolyte of Bli'l'ab
27-11-2006, 17:41
interesting views Captain Stuart. In my brutally honest opinion; I think they should be replaced by a more original alien race, but keeping the same play-style as dark eldar (but improved obviously). Hrud or something would be nice.

giner
27-11-2006, 18:14
By Eldar in Chaos Armour do you mean like CSMs compared to normal SMs if you do I will be very pleased. Like most people on this thread I would also like a sleeker look.

Jon_Irenicus
27-11-2006, 18:21
I think that the Dark Eldar have enough personality as is. Replacing them with another alien race for the exact same fate would be a cruel joke to Dark Eldar players, and serving no purpose at all.

What should Dark Eldar armour be like? Well... yeah, cut the spikes. Blades are more like it. As for the shape of the suit itself, why not something along the lines of the Red Armour that Dracula was wearing in the early scenes of the Bram Stoker movie?

winterman
27-11-2006, 19:56
The color painting of a dark eldar in the rulebook looks good. It has spikes but not 2 foot long ones. He looks sinister without being goofy. Not having a helmet that is as bigger then his body helps as well.

I sure hope they do redo the wyches. Those models are even more ***** then the warriors. If they don't then I guess they are counting on the fantasy witch sales.

Only the incubi are nice models, the rest of the range is crap.

Captain Stuart
27-11-2006, 20:02
interesting views Captain Stuart. In my brutally honest opinion; I think they should be replaced by a more original alien race, but keeping the same play-style as dark eldar (but improved obviously). Hrud or something would be nice.

The thing is 40K itself seems to be moving to a more mobile, fast moving unit game. I moved to Tau and returned to Eldar as those armies rely on combined arms and tend to be more mobile. I don't think the Dark Eldar style is very unique any more. The main thing that differentiates them from the other two armies I mentioned lies in their open top vehicles IMHO.

If GW were releasing 4 codexes a year, I'd want a revision, but as it stands now, there are too many things needing attention and a shortage of resources from GW.

Thanks for reading!

Ozendorph
27-11-2006, 21:09
I don't think the Dark Eldar style is very unique any more. The main thing that differentiates them from the other two armies I mentioned lies in their open top vehicles IMHO.

I don't think that's necessarily true. Beyond having skimming vehicles, lancing weapons and similar statlines, I don't think the DE have much in common with they're CW cousins (in play-style terms).

At their very base, the Dark Eldar are far more willing to take chances with their own safety if it means a quicker path to success. They are ambitious to a fault, and it shows on the table. The open-topped transports for faster assaults, the combat drugs, the guys in speedos riding flying surfboards. Not a concealing warlock or a shimmershield (worst name ever) to be found. Field saves don't put souls on the table any faster, it seems.

Also, I think the DE are worlds apart from the Tau. Those guys aren't exactly a bunch of "by the seat of their pants" risk-takers.

luchog
27-11-2006, 21:11
You hate the current armor, yet say changing it to more of a chaos look (imo, less sleek, more bulk, same spikes) isn't anything...

how do you want it then? They are evil, and have to be seperated somehow from the actual nice guy elv- eldar.

Simple. Less GWAR, more Clive Barker. Think Hellraiser and Lost Souls.

The Emperor
27-11-2006, 21:41
To be honest, I wouldn't mind the DE disappearing all together. I think GW could do something with them, but here just seems to be no effort on GW's part. I don't think the DE ever won a battle report in WD. The DE have almost no background, relying a lot on "The Torturer's Tale". What background is available is even more 1 dimensional than the bulk of the already Imperial-centric PoV. It doesn't help marketing the list when they are all seen as masochist raiders intent on slavery. Can you imagine little Timmy trying to explain to his mom why he wants to buy an army that sucks souls and takes slaves for no noble purpose?

It won't surprise me if DE are the last 4th edition codex. With all the forces the 40K developers have to work on and their release schedule, I think the game would benefit as a whole if there were less things to work on. With the dearth of attention to DE shown fro mthe company, I'd rather they drop DE altogether than having essentially 1 codex for 10 years.

Yes, I'm sour on the DE when I think about what they could have been.

Yeah, the problem with Dark Eldar is that they were the second release of 3rd edition, when GW was intent on releasing Codex's with as little fluff and background information as possible. So they released this brand new army and... who they hell are they? The Codex should answer that question, but you barely get anything out of it. You gotta go get a White Dwarf issue to find out what their deal is. And even then, it's just the ONE story. Had Dark Eldar been released at the tail end of 3rd edition, when Daemonhunters, Necrons, and such came out, then they likely would've been fine. But being released right at the outset of 3rd edition is what crippled them. A shame, really, as I like what I've seen of them so far.

Though personally, I'd prefer they not quit on them. I like the Dark Eldar, despite the poor start they received from GW. I think a really good job could be done on them if GW were to put even half the effort they put into the Eldar Codex into a new Dark Eldar Codex. Though I gotta say, I don't want to see them become Chaos Eldar. I'd love to see Chaos Eldar, but IN ADDITION to Dark Eldar. I don't want to see Chaos Eldar replace Dark Eldar.

Captain Stuart
27-11-2006, 21:56
I don't think that's necessarily true. Beyond having skimming vehicles, lancing weapons and similar statlines, I don't think the DE have much in common with they're CW cousins (in play-style terms).

At their very base, the Dark Eldar are far more willing to take chances with their own safety if it means a quicker path to success. They are ambitious to a fault, and it shows on the table. The open-topped transports for faster assaults, the combat drugs, the guys in speedos riding flying surfboards. Not a concealing warlock or a shimmershield (worst name ever) to be found. Field saves don't put souls on the table any faster, it seems.

Also, I think the DE are worlds apart from the Tau. Those guys aren't exactly a bunch of "by the seat of their pants" risk-takers.

Those are good points. I find the Tau and Eldar to be relatively fragile compared to other armies like MEqs and Guard just like the Dark Eldar. It is the movement that usually is needed to combine the right units strengths at the right time. The Dark Eldar saves tend to be roughly the same as their Craftworld cousins (minus the fields of course).

I'm drifitn goff topic so I'll stop here. If GW does the Dark Eldar they can be good, but without continued support the line will revert to a has-been in terms of financial success.

Ozendorph
27-11-2006, 22:09
I'm drifitn goff topic so I'll stop here. If GW does the Dark Eldar they can be good, but without continued support the line will revert to a has-been in terms of financial success.

On that, we can definitely agree. I feel the Dark Eldar are a great addition to the 40k universe, but they'll only translate to $$ for GW if they really put in the work and give them the full treatment in the new Codex.

Bregalad
27-11-2006, 23:17
Reminds me of the Fantasy Wood Elves, for a long time the most neglected army by GW.

The Dude
27-11-2006, 23:40
What should Dark Eldar armour be like? Well... yeah, cut the spikes. Blades are more like it. As for the shape of the suit itself, why not something along the lines of the Red Armour that Dracula was wearing in the early scenes of the Bram Stoker movie?

Because Mephiston has dibs on that ;)

I see it being like Craftworld Eldar, but a bit more, I don't know, Reptilian? To match their cold, cold hearts :)

Jon_Irenicus
28-11-2006, 00:26
Bah. Mephiston should steer clear of that "blad zacking wampire", as should the rest of the Blood Angels. Beautiful sculpt, though ^^

But I don´t dislike the current warriors, except the helmets being too big, the spikes too plain, and generally the feet too big. The static poses also don´t amount to much, but to a decent modeler they´re more than enough, IMO.

I recently bought a box and I realised the age of these miniatures. Yes, they could be better, but I want better to be along these lines; better legs, crispier detail (some skulls, barbed wire and such like). If anyone has a copy of Inquis Exterminatus, near the end there are some of Jes Goodwyn´s concept art for the Dark Eldar, and they look gorgeous.

(crosses fingers and hopes/prays for Jes to be remodelling the entire DE, and thinking of new and prettier wyches that steer away from *Sean Connery* Zardoc-like gladiators and more into a mix of an Eversor and Lelith)

bigred
28-11-2006, 01:31
Um you guys realize that GW gave away what the new "look" for DE warriors was a while ago.

Remember about six months before 4th came out, there were a flurry of rumours fromt he studio about the new look for DE. They were described as having "Cardassian style" armour, which got a few folks scratching their heads.

Then out comes the 4th rulebook with that nice DE warrior painting and everyone goes...."Ohhhh, that's what they meant."

Now i'm sure not a single mini has been sculpted, but that is supposed to be the look, much more angular, with a massive de-blading policy in effect. Its kind of the same overall theme chaos went through between their last two codices, when they decided to make them look more baroque and less spiky.

If they can capture even half of the menacing badass-ness of that painting the DE will look great. That warrior looks like he means business and could actually kick some butt in HtH in his getup, unlike the current circus carney warriors we have been afflicted with.

-bigred

Jon_Irenicus
28-11-2006, 01:49
I just hope he doesn´t have a face like that. Looked kind of Nurglesque to me (as in, "He´s gonna puke!").

One of the things I disliked about the image was a ´rusty´ look all over him. If these are supposed to be pre-fall Eldar, the least they could do was make them look as technologically advanced as CE (though that could be because of the colours, although I disliked the weapon, too).

The Dude
28-11-2006, 02:08
Remember about six months before 4th came out, there were a flurry of rumours fromt he studio about the new look for DE. They were described as having "Cardassian style" armour, which got a few folks scratching their heads.

Yes, this is the piece of artwork I was thinking of when I made my previous comment (although I have no idea what a Cardassian is). Like Craftworld armour, but with more plates that overlap, sort of like scales. Possibly even with a bit of the Green Goblin from the Spiderman Movie in the mix (I'm thinking particularly the arms).


I just hope he doesn´t have a face like that. Looked kind of Nurglesque to me (as in, "He´s gonna puke!").

One of the things I disliked about the image was a ´rusty´ look all over him. If these are supposed to be pre-fall Eldar, the least they could do was make them look as technologically advanced as CE (though that could be because of the colours, although I disliked the weapon, too).

Yep, I think it is all colour on that one. I know the Dark Eldar were described as having some strange skin tones including pale green, but I don't think it suits.

I think the problem with the gun was it was too thin, at least compared to what we had seen before on the minis.

NakedFisherman
28-11-2006, 02:22
The range is being reworked by the guys that did the wood elf and eldar models

It's possible. Steve Saleh and Martin Footitt are done with their High Elves projects, I think.

bigred
28-11-2006, 04:42
Not heard of Cardassians! Dear Lord!

http://www.kontinuum.cz/databaze/epizody/DS9_77_5.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Damar.jpg

I can definately see how these could have been the seed for the image we see in the BGB.

-bigred

The Dude
28-11-2006, 04:54
Right, well that explains it. I'm quite firmly a "Wars" person, so that one slipped me by.

Thanks for the clarification :D

Jon_Irenicus
28-11-2006, 11:57
Not heard of Cardassians! Dear Lord!
-bigred

God. I definitly wish I never heard about them, now.

Old School
28-11-2006, 13:36
I too wish that GW move the DE away from the post-fall, raiding pirate jet-bikers, and more towards a pre-fall, Eldar at their most extreme, kind of theme.

Remember it's these guys, and gals, that caused the creation of Slaanesh. They took every emotion and feeling to an extreme, whether it was music, taste, sex, pain, visual stimulation etc.. So how that is translated into a 1500 point army list is tough one. Since not all of them would be homicidal maniacs, but when called upon, they could do some nasty things.

I would like to see them have their own kind of 'aspects' or 'paths'. Eldar follow certain paths as a form of discipline, to stop them straying and taking dodgy things to excess. But the DE just follow their whims, and surely some would divulge in one path or another to an excess. Say... one cult would mutilate their own eyes and blind themselves and then would regularly play in a multi piece orchestra, making some of the most amazing music ever played, whilst using the stretch intestines of still living captives as their instruments.

But how you get all this kind of interesting, and sickening, fluff into a decent and unique army list is another thing. I only hope too that Jes Goodwin is the sculptor.

McBain
28-11-2006, 13:42
Like other here I have collected Dark Eldar since they were released and I have led them to many many victories against a wide range of foes. A well kitted out DE force being used by one who knows there strengths can beat any opponent. The present rules for them while lacking in any fluff or detail are by their very nature easy to learn and remember. They have some truly great opportunities for background development, First off you have the fact that they Harlequins have and do perform there dances for the members of the kabals, you have the Dark father the leader of the incubi hinted at being the lost phoenix of the scorpions, you have vects role in the final days of the eldar and his near avatar experience, The relationship between the Wyches and the Kabals. The DE has many places to go in terms of stories for them. The Torturers Tale is an excellent piece of background superbly written also the faint mentions in the novel Night Bringer, which while being not official is still entertaining. Recently we had the index zenos article which was superbly done and shows I believe that the Gw does not intend to let the DE die or to even kill them off the way the s***ts went.

In terms of models I think the main problem is that the warriors were the first box of plastics released after 40k was launched, (ok the marines were first but you can hardly mess up them) They were the first of any eldar models to be redone so they didn’t have the guardians for inspiration nor did they anything to go on these were a completely new idea for them the weren’t CW and they weren’t Harq’s they were something much worse.
The range itself is pretty good; the incubi are stunning I believe possibly my favorite model in my 18-year’s gaming. The warriors they are simply to thin and weedy a set more akin to the guardians would be good, I am in actual fact considering converting CW guardians into DE. The wyches are pretty good and I even like the hellions, the vehicles are sound but the reaver riders are terrible. The models that I think require the mot work are the Warp Beasts and grotesques.

In terms of killing them off I feel that would be a bad way for the Gw to proceed some here have said scrap them and launch the Hrud… why? Then in 5 years time we will have exactly the same problem the first version of an army still being used on the following version of the game, The dark elder were unfortunately released BC this was the point in the last edition where the devs started to claw there way back to how the background used to be al codex’s after that contained a better selection of fluff and ideas.

I have no doubt the GW will re launch them like the WE or CW and I wait that day until then I have just begun to re use my army as there are many out there who do not know the power of a DE army tooled for combat

Acolyte of Bli'l'ab
28-11-2006, 15:35
You mean me ? im just one person :) and honestly im not much of a player so my perspective is probably different to most, and I said replace them ONLY if they cant do anything interesting or unique with them. I just dont see the point of eldar that look like chaos sorry and would rather see some fresh original new races. At the moment the Dark Eldar remind me too much of this to take seriously :
http://www.ruthlessreviews.com/reviews.cfm/id/976/page/_the_other__top____most_ridiculous_black_metal_pic s_of_all_time.html

Kellindel
28-11-2006, 15:50
Chaos Armor??? On an Eldar?!?!?

God I hope they stay as far away from "Chaos Eldar" as possible.

Everyone seems to forget that the Eldar created Slanneesh and that Slann baby loves to eat Eldar souls. So how can one "work" for someone that would rather EAT them since Slan has scores of creatures to do it's beck and call.

The DE take slaves to do lowly tasks, torture, eat, and .... or yeah, suck out their souls to feed off Slan-baby so they can in effect hide/keep/whatever their own.

Maybe in a way that makes them serve Chaos in an indirect way but it doesn't make them CHAOS.

I wish GW just stopped making everything that is Evil into Chaos. It's just said that the mentality appears to be "You're Evil?!?!? So which Chaos Lord do you admire!?!?!?"

The DE kill things cause they LIKE to. Not because they venerate something that might just as well eat them on a whim ... and WILL eat them on a whim.

As for the army and it's "flavor".... most of it is gone. All bikes can now race forward just like the Reavers used to.

The Splinter Gun not having any kick?!?!? 24" Rapid Fire Str3 with an AP5 has kick .... more than a IG Lasgun. And it can kill other things too.

When the list came out, and I hate to say it, it was the most BALANCED and Fluff inspired list. Unfortunately the codexes that followed failed to follow the formula because of one of two things:

1.) Refused to take the time to learn of to use a list that has weaknesses
2.) GW made each list more and more powerful in order to make sure it sells.

Most likely it's the second one and you can't really do anything about it becuase they want to make their money.

The "new" codex that the DE got was really just the codex they should have gotten. Most of it was the vehicle options which they should have gotten in the first place.

If the army comes out next year, cool. If they redo most of the range, that sucks but cool. If they manage to not make them Chaos Eldar, AWESOME!!!

But I don't think it will happen next year. Though I thought that GW had mentioned last year that they would working on both the Eldar and DE rules at the same time, just DE were going to have to wait because they needed to rework the entire line.

gorgon
28-11-2006, 17:40
Maybe in a way that makes them serve Chaos in an indirect way but it doesn't make them CHAOS.

I wish GW just stopped making everything that is Evil into Chaos. It's just said that the mentality appears to be "You're Evil?!?!? So which Chaos Lord do you admire!?!?!?"

The DE kill things cause they LIKE to. Not because they venerate something that might just as well eat them on a whim ... and WILL eat them on a whim.

The problem is that while they don't worship Slaanesh as far as kneeling and lighting candles, etc., their actions and interests clearly feed Slaanesh. So the line is actually pretty fuzzy. And this is part of the fluff problem for GW regarding DE. Unlike most armies, it's hard to sum them up in a few words. DE are the "aliens who are into pain and pleasure, but don't worship the god of pain and pleasure...so although their actions feed the god and they look almost exactly how worshippers would look, they're technically not." :eyebrows:

Such nuance is fine for veterans, but try explaining that to a newbie.


As for the army and it's "flavor".... most of it is gone. All bikes can now race forward just like the Reavers used to.

I disagree with this quite a bit. I think DE, especially the WWP variety, play almost exactly how you'd expect them to. They come screaming out of the Webway on a lot of fast, fragile skimmers, shoot up some stuff and assault the rest.


When the list came out, and I hate to say it, it was the most BALANCED and Fluff inspired list. Unfortunately the codexes that followed failed to follow the formula because of one of two things:

1.) Refused to take the time to learn of to use a list that has weaknesses
2.) GW made each list more and more powerful in order to make sure it sells.


I think the original DE codex was quite bad from day one. I agree that the units were designed with fluff in mind, but as a designer you have to consider whether the units will actually work and behave the way you envision. Too many units just didn't work. That doesn't mean balance, that means weakness.

And (getting on my personal soapbox) "codex creep" is a myth that will never die. If it was a reality, it doesn't explain why all the 4th edition codicies following the SM codex are weaker. Or how the 3rd edition BA codex was one of the first released but is still one of the most powerful. Or how the strongest 2nd edition codicies, SW and Eldar, were among the first released. GW gets codex balance wrong, but it's not a unidirectional thing.

Acolyte of Bli'l'ab
28-11-2006, 17:49
The problem is that while they don't worship Slaanesh as far as kneeling and lighting candles, etc., their actions and interests clearly feed Slaanesh. So the line is actually pretty fuzzy. And this is part of the fluff problem for GW regarding DE. Unlike most armies, it's hard to sum them up in a few words. DE are the "aliens who are into pain and pleasure, but don't worship the god of pain and pleasure...so although their actions feed the god and they look almost exactly how worshippers would look, they're technically not." :eyebrows:

Exactly, that articulates far better what I was trying in vain to say but failed at.:rolleyes:

also, what is "Codex creep" ? , sorry if this is a stupid question...

LarryS
28-11-2006, 18:09
The problem is that while they don't worship Slaanesh as far as kneeling and lighting candles, etc., their actions and interests clearly feed Slaanesh. So the line is actually pretty fuzzy. And this is part of the fluff problem for GW regarding DE. Unlike most armies, it's hard to sum them up in a few words. DE are the "aliens who are into pain and pleasure, but don't worship the god of pain and pleasure...so although their actions feed the god and they look almost exactly how worshippers would look, they're technically not." :eyebrows:


Exactly! From the background I've seen lately, the DE don't worship Slaanesh as much as they offer offer up sacrifices (kinda - not sure about the exact mechanics...:eyebrows: ) to keep her away. Not sure if they sacrifice/consume the souls of others to extend their lives or just to appease Slaanesh or both...

Kayim
28-11-2006, 18:21
All bikes can now race forward just like the Reavers used to.



Dark Eldar bikes still have the advantage that their invulnerable save continues through into your opponents CC phase, unlike other bikers, making them slightly differant.

As for the rest of this thread, i've played Dark Eldar (Wytch Cult) for some time, and found them to be an incredibly powerful force. My only problem with them is the lack of miniatures, and the lack of decent fluff about how they operate. The codex, like many from its time, contained too little to really get a feel for the army, which is a shame. That being said, if all of a sudden the Dark Eldar become 'Chaos Eldar' or something equally ridiculous that would kill the army for me.

The Emperor
28-11-2006, 19:04
Everyone seems to forget that the Eldar created Slanneesh and that Slann baby loves to eat Eldar souls. So how can one "work" for someone that would rather EAT them since Slan has scores of creatures to do it's beck and call.

Check out page 54 of the current Codex: Eldar in "The Crone Worlds" box. Then check out the entry for Karandras, the Shadow Hunter, on page 56. To quote the relevant passages...


According to tradition the crone worlds still preserve some of the Eldar's greatest treasures despite the changes that Chaos has wrought upon them. It is said that there are worlds where the Eldar still live.


He is not the oldest of the Exarchs of the Striking Scorpions, for that honour belongs to Arhra the Father of Scorpions, the Fallen Phoenix who burns with the dark light of Chaos.

There are Chaos Eldar. Yeah, Slaanesh can eat their souls, but if Slaanesh can get them to work her before eating them, then why not? After all, Slaanesh doesn't JUST feed on souls. Slaanesh also feeds on emotions, and she was born from the emotions created by living Eldar. So I can see Slaanesh keeping some Eldar around as worshippers.

That being said, Dark Eldar should NOT be morphed into Chaos Eldar. Like Craftworld and Exodite Eldar, they're another Eldar group who's found a way to escape the predations of Slaanesh. Nevermind that Chaos Eldar live on the Crone Worlds, while the Dark Eldar live in the Webway. If Chaos Eldar do make an appearance, then they should be a wholly separate army list (Maybe part of a more general Chaos army list? I'd love to see a generic Codex: Chaos, with rules for Chaos Cultists, daemon armies, and so on).

popisdead
28-11-2006, 19:59
I believe Gav Thorp stated the line would be fully revamped like as per the Wood Elf line. I would be surprised not to see a whole new model line.

Bregalad
28-11-2006, 21:02
Exactly! From the background I've seen lately, the DE don't worship Slaanesh as much as they offer offer up sacrifices (kinda - not sure about the exact mechanics...:eyebrows: ) to keep her away. Not sure if they sacrifice/consume the souls of others to extend their lives or just to appease Slaanesh or both...

According to C.S.Goto, some Dark Eldar including Lelith Hesperax worship Slaanesh. But according to him, every second Eldar Farseer including Eldrad either worships or cooperates with Slaanesh :rolleyes:

Jon_Irenicus
28-11-2006, 21:15
The problem is that while they don't worship Slaanesh as far as kneeling and lighting candles, etc., their actions and interests clearly feed Slaanesh.

Well, the bottom line is they don´t do it for Slaanesh, they do it for themselves. Although this is a tad more complicated to explain to little children, that doesn´t mean they won´t understand it eventually.
In fact, the Dark Eldar ´dex should sport on the side a big fat "They´re evil. They´re depraved. And they don´t need no *******´ Chaos Gods!" mantra. And before opening the ´dex, new players have to say it out loud at least ten times.

Seriously now, I think it´s quite explicit that the thing they abhor the most is Slaanesh. Though they must keep it at bay, and what better way to do so than replenishing their anima with the souls of others? They´re not evil, at least, no more than the CE. Just pragmatic and murderous. And it serves their interests quite well!

Ozendorph
28-11-2006, 21:17
"codex creep" is a myth that will never die.

The one place I really noticed the creep was back in 2nd edition with the special characters. Each codex featured its own "unparalleled death-machine". However, to make sure he was the top of his class, he had to have a better statline than the previous Big Cheese. Ever increasing Weapon Skills, more Attacks, crazier rules, and Weapons of Mass Destruction followed.

malika
28-11-2006, 21:21
According to C.S.Goto, some Dark Eldar including Lelith Hesperax worship Slaanesh. But according to him, every second Eldar Farseer including Eldrad either worships or cooperates with Slaanesh :rolleyes:

That is truly horrible! The Dark Eldar hate Slaanesh, while I believe there might be some fatalists out there who have given up the fight and try to sacrifice themselves and others with them to Slaanesh these would be a minority, but wouldnt be exclusively Dark Eldar, other races join in there too!

Doctor Thunder
28-11-2006, 22:04
Well, the bottom line is they don´t do it for Slaanesh, they do it for themselves. Although this is a tad more complicated to explain to little children, that doesn´t mean they won´t understand it eventually.
Seriously now, I think it´s quite explicit that the thing they abhor the most is Slaanesh. Though they must keep it at bay, and what better way to do so than replenishing their anima with the souls of others?

I think it's a problem that everyone has, including the GW's writers.
The problem is that Slaanesh is the embodiment of the unfettered eldar mind. Dark Eldar represent the kind of Eldar that existed prior to the fall, the very beings whose minds and actions created Slaanesh.

So, as far as GW fluff goes, Slaanesh and the Dark Eldar are reflections of one another, and a worshipper of Slaanesh would be nearly identical to a Dark Eldar in almost every way.

So, fluff-wise, it's a problem for Dark Eldar to be basically indistinguishable from chaos worshippers but not actually be chaos worshippers. It is a problem that needs to be addressed in a serious way, because in it's current state, it makes no sense and causes needless confusion. If Dark Eldar have the exact same mindset as a worshipper of Slaanesh, there should be no reason for them to oppose Slaanesh worship, they would embrace it fully.

It would be necessary for Dark Eldar to have the potential for other types of actions that are incompatable with Slaanesh worship. Perhaps emphasizing the seemingly random nature of Eldar to humans, and make it more extreme then craftworld eldar, giving the Dark Eldar the potential for unfettered slaughter, and unparralelled acts of generosity, either action perfectly acceptable and completely dependant of the whim of the Archon. It would make Dark Eldar signifignatly different then their current state, but at least it would make sense. As the fluff currently stands, there is no real reason for Dark Eldar to be opposed to Slaanesh Worship.

Added to the problem is the fact that GW was going through a 'mini-dex' phase at the time the dark eldar were introduced, so the Dark Eldar Codexes contain almost no fluff whatsoever for us to work with.

Jon_Irenicus
28-11-2006, 22:15
Well, gotta hand it to you. That´s pretty much the nail on the door, but I would disagree not on a particular point, but rather with the idea that, while Eldar inadvertly created Slaanesh, it was because they were, as a whole, gave in to excess in pure, raw form; even "current day" Dark Eldar do not base their conduit on the worship of a god, but rather their whims (as you stated). However, saying that they do so for Slaanesh would be the same as saying that Space Marines worship Khorne because they kill a lot and have a martial code. Does it sound far-fetched enough? Good, ´cause that´s the kind of thing that should make it into the ´dex if what we little we had to read about the DE is to make sense.

Hellebore
28-11-2006, 22:36
Well, see this comes back to intent versus action.

Pre Fall eldar did not necessarily INTEND for the formation of a god, and thus would not actively accept worship when it was formed.

I suppose it is skirting semantics, but it is similar to a soldier vs a 'murderer' - one commits acts of killing, the other intends to commit murder.

They both do it the same way, but their psychological intent is not necessarily the same.

So, the dark eldar, having realised what has happened, refuse to abandon their way of life, and so continue to do so, despite the existence of Slannesh. They don't conciously worship Slannesh, but still perform the same actions.

Look at a space marine - they are full of martial pride, and kill constantly. Very Khornate to me, and yet they don't worship Khorne. Because it all comes down to intent.

Hellebore

Bregalad
28-11-2006, 23:52
Are you serious?
This joker Goto's claiming Eldrad himself is a chaos worshiper, and a Slaanesh worshiper at that? :wtf:

Well, Eldrad himself is not a worshipper, but made up an old scheme, that cooperates with Slaanesh (to provide her with Space Marine souls). But his pupil and leader of the Ulthwé seer council communicates with a Slaanesh demon thingy and provides it with Eldar souls (among them Farseers and a Shining Spear Near-Exarch).

But the next Eldar novel by him seems to play on a craftworld dominated by a Slaanesh worshipping seer council (as featured already in a short story).

ghost21
29-11-2006, 07:06
tbh i would hate dark eldar to fall comletely into chaos eldar

i could see that slanesh has an effect on de eg certian cults worship him and gain abilities that way (sutch as an aspect warrior sect )

the dark pheonix i think was hinted at bieng the farther of the incubi if he is doesnt he if not all worship slaanesh?

and wheres all the dark eldar psykers (yes im ware most are killed) but surely some would servive those powers would be usefull (but also get you noticed my mr slaanesh)

prehaps they do exist just in very short numbers prehaps this could be another sect?

i think most eldar achnowlege slaneshes existance and if they would saye 1 eldar soul by feeding him 50 humans i could see them doing that

i realy hope the warriors are redone those spikes always snap off on mine
some of the wyches are ok some are naff

tbh ive they do give em an overhall great; but i hope we dont have to wait as long as we did for wood elves

Dranthar
29-11-2006, 07:45
It'll be interesting to see which way they go, seeing as how GW has handed the title of "Collectors Of Souls" to the Necrons.... Slaanesh isn't going to be happy....

Necrons have never been the "Collecters of Souls". C'Tan, aka Stargods feed on energy. Intitially they lived off of the energy generated by Stars (which you should note, do not have souls), but when they became more self aware and redefined themselves as C'Tan they chose to start feeding on the electromagnetic energy generated by living organisms since it is apparently much 'tastier'.
It's all in the Necron Codex. :rolleyes:


The Dark Eldar as an army was doomed from the start. Not only did GW release their codex in "pamphlet" form but they also DELIBERATELY avoided explaining their background in WD.
For some unfathomable reason, someone in GW decided that it would be a good idea to keep the Dark Eldar as 'mysterious' as possible. The net result is that you now have to do some serious research to work out the DE background, meaning that alot of people seem to have totally the wrong idea about them.

If you read Gav Thorpes introduction for the Dark Eldar back when their codex came out, he gives out almost NO information on what they are about. I think after about 6-7 WDs you can find a handful of paragraphs explaining various minor facets. It's not until "A Torturers Tale" some time after that it becomes semi-clear as to where they came from and their motivations.

The fact that the Eye of Terror Campaign was a complete farce for Dark Eldar players only made things worse, although I do have to admit that I quite enjoyed the background generated by the Medusa V campaign (even if we didn't get a new model, like almost every other race :mad: ).


I certainly hope GW intends to do the Dark Eldar justice, as I've always felt that there was some massive potential, in background, aesthetics, play style and dare I say it, Profit in updating the Dark Eldar.

McBain
29-11-2006, 11:20
the dark pheonix i think was hinted at bieng the farther of the incubi if he is doesnt he if not all worship slaanesh?



The incubi believe and strive to atain martial prowess, they seem to be seperate from the normal society i cannot see these proud warriors being depraved "sex pests" I see them more as the last rements of the Aspect warriors from times of old. They represent the last vestige of the warrior code in the Dark Eldar. There fluff for what its worth always mentions them as being seperate. There is a peice of fluff somewhere about a Striking Scorpian Exarch attacking the incubi delibereatly, seeking them out as it were and reffering to them as the fallen... The bcakground of the incubi is one of the least explored areas of DE fluff as they have little mention anywhere.

One day i will write about the incubi...

gorgon
29-11-2006, 12:27
The incubi believe and strive to atain martial prowess, they seem to be seperate from the normal society i cannot see these proud warriors being depraved "sex pests".

Well, for what it's worth, GW specifically mention Arhra in the new Eldar codex and recycled the old line about him "burning with the dark light of Chaos."

So given that all signs point the father of the Incubi, clearly there's some taint there.

4tonmantis
29-11-2006, 12:48
How is this a discussion about Dark Eldar Rumors in any way shape or form?

GWvsJohn2
29-11-2006, 12:50
I think one of the main themes of the 40k universe is that mortals cannot help but strengthen the chaos gods with their thoughts and actions. Even the Emperor himself strengthened Khorne when he draws his balde of Tzeentch when he invokes his psychich abilities. The Dark Eldar are no different. Their actions and lifestyle strengthen Slaanesh, such a life of excess could do nothing else. However, they do not actively worship Slaanesh, their lifestyle acts as a sort of path, avoiding the easy pitfall of Slaanesh worship. It would be far too easy for a Dark Eldar to say, "Look Slaanesh, I'm taking slaves and giving into excess, give me some power in return," but the Dark Eldar focus completely on their wanton actions, gaining their own power and not stooping to begging their mortal enemy for power.

gorgon
29-11-2006, 12:54
It would be necessary for Dark Eldar to have the potential for other types of actions that are incompatable with Slaanesh worship. Perhaps emphasizing the seemingly random nature of Eldar to humans, and make it more extreme then craftworld eldar, giving the Dark Eldar the potential for unfettered slaughter, and unparralelled acts of generosity, either action perfectly acceptable and completely dependant of the whim of the Archon. It would make Dark Eldar signifignatly different then their current state, but at least it would make sense. As the fluff currently stands, there is no real reason for Dark Eldar to be opposed to Slaanesh Worship.

Yep...good summation. I like the idea of creating a differentiator. What separates SMs from Khorne worshippers is that although they're born killers, there are plenty of times they show up and save a populace from certain death. In other words, there's more going on there than just random destruction. The same thing could work for DE.

Maybe DE aren't "Chaotic", but "chaotic." They're schizophrenic, prone to extreme behavior (in either direction) and just kinda crazy. What makes them scary to deal with (in combat and otherwise) is that you have absolutely no idea what those crazy muthers will do.

Here's a very important question that I haven't seen conclusively answered...do the DE and Craftworlders hate each other ala WFB? Or do the CWers see the DE as their "lost" brethren, with the DE viewing the CWers as their uptight cousins? I was disappointed to see the new Eldar codex steer clear of this issue, but perhaps they're saving the explanation for the new DE codex.

Souleater
29-11-2006, 13:03
I get the impression that they intensly dislike each other - remember that DE use captured Wraithbone for a number of wargear items.

However I love the idea that the two factions will fight side by side against She Who Thirsts when the Harlies ask them to.

Edit: Even if Ahara did venerate She Who Thirsts, it is quite possible that his own followers rose up and killed him (or imprisioned him and/or his suit) after he he taught them.

Edit 2: At Dhranzar: It wasn't that GW wanted to keep DE 'mysterious' that made them go for the 'pamphlet' codex. They did the same with SM, if you recall.

They got the idea that people didn't like 'all the background' material in the 2nd Ed codexes. Where they got this idea from, I have no idea. What was a pain in the 2nd Ed codexes was

a) repetition of stats with two seperate entries - one in the 'background' and one in the 'army list' and b) the spreading of rules between those two entries which made the codexes a real pain to use.

More background would help DE an awful lot. Just don't make them minions of She Who Thirsts.

Edit 3 (yes, I should have just read the thread, sue me): @ McBain - Maybe they changed the fluff at some point, but I always thought the Eldar Paths (and thus the Aspects) came about *after* the Fall, so that aspect warriors didn't exist until the Craftworlders fled?

So maybe Scorpion Dude got tainted, fled to Comorrough, taught the Incubi (to save his skin by being useful) but then finally Fell and was killed by the Incubi?

Souleater
29-11-2006, 13:22
How is this a discussion about Dark Eldar Rumors in any way shape or form?

Well, since the Dark Eldar are the poor, unloved red-headed stepchild of 40K and nobody wants to see them going the way of the Squats, the mods are fairly generous when it comes to us talking about them.

Maybe it is pity, maybe like me they hope GW will see this intrest in the True Eldar and make them some shiney new models. *shrugs*

Brimstone
29-11-2006, 13:23
This thread is horribly off topic and the further discussions on this nature should be taken to 40K background as this thread is now closed.

The Warseer Inquisition