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Tate
26-11-2006, 04:05
With the new empire book on the way I want to open a discussion about my personal favorite part of the new book-- improved warrior priests. They are much better than before, but I still dont know if they are competitive.

Examining the Hero Choices:

-A level 2 battle wizard gets 2 PD, 1 DD, and two spells for 100 pts. He cannot fight worth his weight in sand.
-A Warrior Priest gets a L4 bound prayer that helps combat in one way or another (unbreakable, rerolls, ward save, healing, harming enemies in btb), 1 DD, and 2 WS4/S4 attacks for 90 pts. He also gives his unit hatred and allows a third unit of flagellants.
-A Captain gets 3 WS5/S4 attacks for only 50 pts and has access to full plate.

If you want to take warrior priests, you had better back them up with a (some) battle wizard(s) so that your spells and prayers actually go off. This further limits your fighty heroes. So basically, is two attacks at lower WS with less armor fighty enough so that you dont need captains? The other problem is that warrior priest prayers are best/only used in combat. This makes them only useful in the later turns of the game.

Examining Lord Choices:

Empire needs leadership, so I dont think a wizard lord is worth it since he is only LD 8.

General- only 3 attacks, but only 80 pts, very nice.

Arch Lector- 2 prayers, 2 DD, same combat stats as the hero with only 2 WS4 attacks, 125 pts. [can we confirm that he is LD 9 as well??]

Again, same problem as before. Not too fighty and magic thats only good in combat. My thought is that if your oponent saves his scrolls for that key round of combat and you lose and get run down you are toast with no magic offense or defense and you spend extra points on the characters.


I think empire needs to be a hoard. Detachment rules are the same, which is pretty good, but you need lots of troops to make effective use of them. Taking more expensive characters limits the amount of troops you can field, but taking these combat casters makes your units tougher (especially if you get the prayers off).

Anyone have some opinions on empire hero selection regarding warrior priests/lectors?

Harry
26-11-2006, 08:58
All the Empire Heroes are Leadership 8 (I think?) Including Ludwig Schwarhelm the Empires battle standard bearer himself and Luther Huss!

The ability to give a unit of Emire troops (say its a big unit ...30 men) and two detatchments (60 men total) the same leadership as greatswords or Inner circle knights is no small thing. And this is an ability that niether the Wizard or the Engineer have.

The ability to bring a unit of Leadership 10, unbreakable nutters as a core choice.....freeing up Rare slots for a Hellblaster or two or a Steam tank is no small thing. And this is an ability that none of the other hero choices have.
This flexibility for the price of one hero is a nice option to have.

As far as having to take a Battle wizard...how often would you pick a 2000 point army and not include a magic user of some kind so as not to gift the magic phase to your opponent.

It seems to me that having taken your Battle Wizard, and a Captain who's Leadership and extra combat ability is an irresistable bargain for 50 points....Your choice comes down to whether you think the package that comes with the engineer to help protect and support the artillery is going to be more valuable to you than the package that comes with the Warrior Priest (as discussed).

My choice comes down to whether I want to field on of those really cool new warrior priests or have the **** taken out of me and Terminator jokes throughout the battle because I fielded the new engineer onn his mechanical horse:D

Zodiac
26-11-2006, 09:25
My choice comes down to whether I want to field on of those really cool new warrior priests or have the **** taken out of me and Terminator jokes throughout the battle because I fielded the new engineer onn his mechanical horse:D

I heard they had a magic item like the new orcs and goblins that the character bearing it, becomes scout and it doesnt varify which.. So an engineer on a clockwork horse with a good gun in your enemy's lines is kinda hard :D Or a warrior priest.. I guess if that is the case, I'll have to remove his head though.. I really dont like the engineer's head..

BTW
What about metal engineers on foot, and battle wizards? They arent expecting us to use the old ones right? They arent really cool.. and the new one in the set doesnt really show us that they're good at sculpting them..

Griefbringer
26-11-2006, 10:05
I think empire needs to be a hoard.

Like in consisting of gold coins, locked in a chest and buried in a deserted island?

Couldn't resist. ;)

BlazeXI
26-11-2006, 11:48
I have always fancied the idea of Warrior priests accompaning troops in battle. In 6th edition the rules made them waste of points. Now the are tempting. I'm planing to put together an empire army out of 6th edition models bought on e-bay cheap and complimented by characters from Mordheim. So I'll use Sisters of Sigmar instead of the new Warrior Priest minis. Though, they are not half bad!

RoXxOrS
26-11-2006, 13:30
it completely depends on what your looking for in your army
1 captains are the best fighting choices and are cheap ,but have no special rules and do not benefit your troops other tahn having ld8 and 3 ws 5 attacks
2 wizards are there to be scroll caddys or to be offensive but with a human army you are limited as to your magical power .if want to be magically uber dont use them in that way,they have no other benefits

3.warrior priests have the same ld as captains,2ws4 s4 attacks 1 dd hatred a spell taht cannot miscast ,they are the best all rounders and best for your units as they still benefit from fighting power (from a wizarsd)magic defense equal to a wizard they have good ld AND maKE YOUR UNITS RE ROLL missed hits
to me its a no brainer warrior priest everytime and they add bags of character to your army

alextroy
26-11-2006, 19:22
For me, one Warrior Priest is a good investment. With the rumored improved rules, he serves several different roles for a not unreasonable amount of points. Think about what he can do in a less then 2000 point game:

1) General: His leadership is the same as a Captain, which means you can take a BSB and still have a third hero choice to use as you wish.

2) Pseduo Wizard: He has a "spell" that never fails or miscast and he provides the same spell defence as a Battle Wizard, in a model that is much more likely to survive any attack directed at it.

3) Infantry Enhancer: The Unit he joints gains Hatred of the enemy. Rerolling misses is good, especially with a Hammer unit.

4) Slot Modifier: Changing one Flaggelent unit from Rare to Core effectively adds a Rare selection while reducing your Core requirement!

What's not to like here?

Tate
27-11-2006, 04:37
I agree that the new WPs are great, glad I'm not crazy here.

So for a typical horde ( ;) ) army list what character selections would you take?

Im thinking about:

Warrior Priest on a barded steed with sword of might, shield, doomfire ring, hvy armor
L2 Wizard with 2 scrolls
BSB on a barded steed with full plate
Arch Lector with meteoric iron, icon of magnus, great weapon

This is assuming the Lectors is LD9 (which I forgot to look at when I saw the book). It gives reasonable magic offense (4 L4 bounds and 4 PD, good defense (6 dice and 2 scrolls), and a BSB who doubles as adding some combat power to a unit with 3 S4 attacks. I'm thinking about giving the BSB a sword (sigismund for 3 S5 strike first attacks) but I fear it may get too expensive. This layout is about 580 pts already, a bit herohammer for my tastes.

Thoughts?

Akhenaton
27-11-2006, 08:50
I used to combine my WP with the speculum. Suddenly having a mediocre stat line is wonderful when you're swopping stats.

He was the terror of Chaos Lords every where.

Odin
27-11-2006, 10:28
Warrior Priests have always been viable. One of my regular opponents always fields at least one, and they're always a pain in the ****.

HeraldOfTheFree
27-11-2006, 15:41
Arch-Lectors are Ld 9. Read book yesterday.
If its already been said ignore this, but the prayer that affects units in base contact does D6 Strength 4 hits on ANYTHING and D6 Strength 5 hits on Forest Spirits, Daemons and Undead.

Odieman
27-11-2006, 16:22
Sweet! Now I am definatively going to but a warrior priest or 3 :D .

Tate
27-11-2006, 17:30
Yes the prayers are great now, the new prayer makes the WPs unit unbreakable. Talk about amazing.

I have to go back and look at the duration of this one though, if it is only for the Empire turn and not your opponent's turn it isnt as good since it will only work if you charge or are in the second round of being charged (which means you either held or won the first round in which case you shouldnt be too worried about losing this time either).

About the speculum, it could end up hurting you if your challenge is accepted by a unit champ. I would rather put it on a wizard, although this does put him in harms way. I really just dont like the speculum, its way too situational. Besides, if you play tournaments you often must show your list to your opponent. This guarantees that either the WP will not be given the opportunity to challenge a big character or your opponent will just be sure to feed him a unit champ while the big character destroyes the rest of your unit and runs you down. I'm not convinced its a great use of 25 pts.

Edit: I also noticed that Burning Head can be cast in combat since it isnt a magic missile. Combine the Doomfire Ring with the damage dealing prayer and you have d6+4 or 5 S4 attacks before you even fight the combat (however no panic check for them since they are engaged). What a great way to even the playing field a bit to get rid of enemy ranks or outnumber bonus. Or after your opponent stops these two L4 bounds your other casters could be free to get off more crucial prayers/spells.

samw
27-11-2006, 17:59
Yes the prayers are great now, the new prayer makes the WPs unit unbreakable. Talk about amazing.

I have to go back and look at the duration of this one though, if it is only for the Empire turn and not your opponent's turn it isnt as good since it will only work if you charge or are in the second round of being charged (which means you either held or won the first round in which case you shouldnt be too worried about losing this time either).

About the speculum, it could end up hurting you if your challenge is accepted by a unit champ. I would rather put it on a wizard, although this does put him in harms way. I really just dont like the speculum, its way too situational. Besides, if you play tournaments you often must show your list to your opponent. This guarantees that either the WP will not be given the opportunity to challenge a big character or your opponent will just be sure to feed him a unit champ while the big character destroyes the rest of your unit and runs you down. I'm not convinced its a great use of 25 pts.

Edit: I also noticed that Burning Head can be cast in combat since it isnt a magic missile. Combine the Doomfire Ring with the damage dealing prayer and you have d6+4 or 5 S4 attacks before you even fight the combat (however no panic check for them since they are engaged). What a great way to even the playing field a bit to get rid of enemy ranks or outnumber bonus. Or after your opponent stops these two L4 bounds your other casters could be free to get off more crucial prayers/spells.

You know, you don't have to swap stats in a challenge, you just get the option.

Akhenaton
29-11-2006, 09:13
You know, you don't have to swap stats in a challenge, you just get the option.

Exactly.

I use a WP on a barded steed with GW / VHS.

Combine iwth IC Knights for a great hammer unit. Also when you charge a Chaos Lord on a Dragon / Chariot he can't excatly send out the Champion can he?

Lieutenant Frederic Henry
29-11-2006, 23:32
I think Warrior Priests are less viable if you put too much faith in them. I plan on taking one, personally. In a 2k point army, I always take one anyway, even without the new book. Since they gain universal hatred now, they're even more viable.
I intend to still run a setup similar to this one:

Fighty Count/Empire General (I just can't resist that new plastic kit. Plus, I play an infantry heavy army and find a Grand Master unfluffy)
Battle Standard Bearer-Captain (because, hey, new kit. Plus LD Re-rolls within 12 inches)
Warrior Priest (For the DDice, plus some fighty spells. Put 'im with GreatSwords or Knights now, thanks to Hatred)
Dispell Caddy Wizard (because, sometimes, you just need those darn scrolls)

I think the best use for a Warrior priest is to augment one of your already powerful units. Make your knights that much nastier on the charge, or allow your Greatswords to hit back that much more effectively. Does anyone know if Hatred applies to detatchments? Because if so... :-D
Cheers.

Edit: Just thought of this. WP can replace a grandmaster, in effect. Hatred on your Knights, plus two S5 attacks, is better than 4 strength 6 attacks, and much cheaper. This means you can still keep a leadership 9 Count near the BSB in your main infantry lines (assuming you play a balanced force) to bolster the anvil units. And, no, I don't think that putting both the GM and the WP together in the knights is cost effective, since your GM won't be affected by Hatred. Characters are unaffected by unit pyschology that they don't come standard with. Just as your General doesn't become stubborn when with Greatswords (if they test off of his LD), so your GM isn't affected by the WP's Hatred ability. I could be wrong, I don't remember the actual wording of the rules in 7th Ed. yet.

kaldour
30-11-2006, 02:47
Exactly.
Also when you charge a Chaos Lord on a Dragon / Chariot he can't excatly send out the Champion can he?

True... but VHS isn't gonna help you against that dragon...

Mephistofeles
30-11-2006, 18:00
I'm thinking of using the following line-up:

Arch Lector (with as much armour as possible)
Captain-BSB with Imperial Banner
Level 2 Wizard with 1 scroll.

I'm thinking that the level 2 wizard might actually work towards exhausting my enemies dispel-power, and then the Arch Lector might actually get some of his prayers through. Hopefully. If not, he can still fight, and still give the cool bonuses like Hatred and LD9.

By the way, if you haven't seen 'em, the prayers seem to be the following:

Armour of Contempt- The warrior priest gets a 4+ ward save.

Soulfire- Daemons, Undead and Forest spirits in base contact with the priest suffer D6 Strength 5 hits with no saves allowed.

Hammer of Sigmar- Allows the priest to re-roll all failed to hit and to wound rolls.

Cant Remember what it is called- Makes the priest and unit the priest has joined unbreakable.

Can't remember what it is called- Allows the priest to heal his wounds back to its starting value

Lieutenant Frederic Henry
30-11-2006, 18:28
I think the prayers are still pretty underpowered. I don't take him for spell casting power, just the dispell dice and two attacks. An Archlector is not viable in my opinion. 2 Attacks and crappy powers, and only one more DD? No thanks. I'd rather have an EC and a lvl one wizard for the points. Plus if someone kills my fighty count, my wizard is still alive. I intend to take one WP to give a hard hitting unit Hatred. That's all I really want him for.

UltimateNagash
30-11-2006, 18:40
What about the Warl Altar? A Bound Light spell every turn is good (in my opinion).

Mephistofeles
30-11-2006, 20:09
The War Altar is just so incredible it hurts my mind just to think about it. The "rumours" about it just can't be true, it's way to good! God damn it, I might actually cry just thinking about it.

S5,T5,W5, 4+ ward save, light-spell every turn, d6 impact hits. On top of that, an Arch Lector in it, who can actually fight, cast prayers and rock my fortress. God damn it.

Lieutenant Frederic Henry
30-11-2006, 22:26
Isn't that awfully expensive for what you get? Bound spells can still be dispelled. 35 points for an extra level on a wizard is much cheaper, in my opinion. And how do you exactly fit a chariot into your empire army composition?
Cheers.

Mike3791
30-11-2006, 22:36
i think the problem is that priests, heroes or lords, rely on wizards to exhast the enemy's dispel dice, or having one wizard casting spells and an opponent may get cocky when rolling and use one dice to dispell a prayer. Remember, on 1d6 there is a 50%chance of failing to dispell a prayer.

Tate
01-12-2006, 00:15
Dont forget that the alter has MR2. . .

However, as a chariot it is still popped against S7. 100pts for something that can be instakilled that is also carrying my general on it for another 125 pts naked is just not that good. Sure the light spell is Level 5, which is nice and definatly adds some cool abilities with dazzling brightness and such, but I dont really like paying 100 pts for another spell. THe 4+ ward isnt enough assurance for me. Although I will try the thing out in friendly play just because.

I think in 2500+ pts games it might be worth it, but at the lower/average level scene I think its too many eggs in a basket that can be popped by a cannon/dwarven BT/lizzie hero/VC hero/chaos hero/direct stonethrower hit/ ogre character/TK lord/Orc lord/ . . .the list goes on. . .

One more thing, the arch lector riding it is still only 2 attacks (unless its the special character, but even then I dont know). So I hardly think he can fight well (at least he breaks ranks).

On the topic of how wussy WPs are in combat how do you plan on equipping them? My thoughts are either the sword of might/shield (possibly enchanted) for one who needed a bit more armor, xhw or gw for one on foot who had the armor of meteoric iron, or if I was feeling really brave the sword of power/sigismund for an arch lector who I wanted to give a shield too and felt like spending lots of pts to boost those two measly attacks. If the speculum is taken I think either sigismund/might/gw is required to boost strength to a satasfactory level (although I wouldnt take sigismund/vhs on a lector since its my general and I dont want to risk it).

Mephistofeles
01-12-2006, 16:45
I think that your oppinions of chariots are a bit coloured by playing empire. "normal" armies pay 80-90 points just for a normal chariot which does the same thing as our new one, just that our new casts spells, has ward-save and magic resistance. Remember that the general does not get hurt if his chariot is destroyed too.

And the arch lector fights "OK" with 2 attacks, if you give him something like a great weapon or something he can dish out some damage at least, combined with the impacts from the chariot, that's good.

*edit* all the above was of course just IMHO...

Tate
02-12-2006, 00:41
Great call Mephistofeles, I didnt look up that the character doesnt get hit when the chariot is destroyed in this edition. That makes the alter a great addition. . . hmmm. . . I am writing up a war alter list right now actually. Check it out in the army list forum, It seems like it would work.

Keep in mind that the alter gives both the lector and the alter a 4+ ward, MR 2 and unbreakable, its not just the alter. Anyone know the speed on it, I'm guessing 7" for barded steeds??

Lieutenant Frederic Henry
02-12-2006, 21:49
I just don't see how you fit the darn thing in tactically. I use my characters to give my units some Combat Punch. Even with all that good stuff priests have, you need some other characters with more attacks (Captains come to mind) and WS better than 4 to see your average troopers through tight spots. I think 1 WP fits about right in my armies, as it stands. In a nice big block of Great Swords, with the BSB with griffon banner. All those nice armor saves, high strength attacks, hatred, stubborness, three challenge accepting characters (Champion first round so your WP still gives hatred and a prayer, WP second round to protect the BSB), break test re-rolls, etc. will make the best darn anvil unit I can think of. It'll be a tarpit like flagellants, only it won't suck. And will kill lots of things.
And best yet, it don't need no stinkin' chariot.
Cheers.

Neknoh
02-12-2006, 22:51
A Warrior Priest, a unit of Free Company, a unit of Flaggellants and a unit of Pistolers and I've got my 500 pts witch hunter warband sorted methinks (and I will try and model it in a true witchhunter style)

Mephistofeles
03-12-2006, 13:19
Tate: Yeah I'll check it out! The war-altar actually seems to be darn good, and did you spot the fact that the amulet thing that makes you ignore the first suffered wound seems to apply to the altar to, making it imune to its first auto-death for instance?