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Gutlord Grom
26-11-2006, 07:06
What exactly happenend in the way back when that was the war between the Old Ones and C'tan? What ended it?
When did you humans get involved? The Old Ones did something that made them, I think.
Any information for this time period would be helpful.

LordXaras
26-11-2006, 10:02
Go read the Codex: Necrons? Seriously, what you're asking for is basically 80% of the fluff from that.

The humans were never involved. The Old Ones has just seeded Earth to produce life, and sometime later in the war the C'tan planted the Pariah gene in us (possibly triggering parts of our evolution as well). Humans did not evolve until millions and millions of years later.

Mechanicus
26-11-2006, 10:51
What exactly happenend in the way back when that was the war between the Old Ones and C'tan? What ended it?
When did you humans get involved? The Old Ones did something that made them, I think.
Any information for this time period would be helpful.
There seem to be two wars in heaven - the Necrontyr one and the Eldar one, the Eldar one having two starts, a Necron start and an Eldar start.


Necrontyr War in Heaven: The Necrontyr attack the Old Ones, but their technologies are no match for the Old Ones’s use of the webway, and are pushed back to the Halo stars. The Necrontyr find the Yngir, and once they had given them bodies, they were given metal bodies.

Eldar War in Heaven (Necron start): Yngir and Necrons attack Old Ones, Eldar (and their gods), Krork, Jokaero, etc.

Khaine attacks Eldar, and maybe other races, due to Lileath’s prophecy that he will be torn into a hundred pieces by a great mortal army.

Eldar gods cut off from the Eldar by the wishes of Asuryan. Isha and Kurnous contact and help the Eldar against the wishes of Asuryan, and Vaul agreed to help them in any way he could.

Khaine overheard Isha and told Asuryan, and was told he was free to do with them as he wanted. Khaine imprisoned Isha and Kurnous.

In return for their release, Vaul agreed to forge 100 swords in a year to fight against the Yngir. At the end of a year, Vaul had forged 99 swords. He slipped in a normal sword, and rushed to get Isha and Kurnous out of their prison and escaped.

Khaine and 99 Eldar fought Kaelis Ra and his minions with the swords, and as one was normal, and not living, the defence was broken and Khaelis Ra came upon them. Khaine attacked Kaelis Ra and destroyed his necrodermis, and Kaelis Ra was forced to return to a tomb for a new necrodermis. Khaine was tainted with the aspect of the reaper. All the Eldar were tainted with the fear of the grave.

Kaelis Ra reached into the minds of the young races and gave them the fear of death, with the Krork being the only exception.

2nd War (Eldar start): Khaine came back and attacked Vaul. Gods fought each other, making and breaking pacts and agreements with each other and the Yngir, but always were Vaul and Khaine on different sides; all except Asuryan, who refused to take sides.

The plague of Enslavers from the warp caused mass destruction among the Yngirs crop, and so the Yngir began to descend into stasis.

Kurnous leads Outsider into trap? Cegorach drove the Outsider insane by making it believe that Cegorach was one of it’s fellow Yngir. It ate the Yngir who Cegorach impersonated, but the voices drove it insane. It drove itself into exile by collapsing into a ball, where it remained.

Vaul created ‘Iron knights’ and soul constructs to attack the armies of the Void Dragon, to buy him time to create the Talismans of Vaul. These Talismans used Morai-heg’s ‘Eye of the witch’ to transport a miniscule amount of the immaterium into the materium as a beam. They were sent out to attack the Void Dragon, who was preparing a large attack in person. (Unknown how the conflict resolves. For what it's worth, I think that Vaul's Talismans slightly drained the Void Dragon, but he escaped before he could be killed.)

Kaelis Ra descends into stasis on Pavonis after attack by Cegorach, but Deceiver lets the Old Ones know where he is and a fleet destroys the ship supplying him with energy.

Vaul reforged the final blade, and called it Anaris, or dawnlight.

The Void Dragon descended onto Mars and slept.

Deceiver descends to sleep an Naogeddon after placing Pariah gene. Lileath killed?

Vaul fought with Khaine, and did much damage to him, but was toppled from heaven and was left crippled and chained to his forge by Khaine. Anaris taken by Khaine

Eldanesh fought Khaine. Falcon retrieved Anaris, and Eldanesh used it in his battle. Khaine kills Eldanesh. Eldanesh's descendants take Anaris, and it is eventually lost in the Sea of Broken Tears.

I think that's it.

LordXaras
26-11-2006, 11:04
I have tried to produce an explanation for the duality of the War in Heaven (Ctan vs Old Ones / Khaine's faction vs Vaul's faction), and the best one (and the one I find most fitting) is that the Eldar are not locked in the mindset that a war has to be between two factions alone and that a human mind can't do the War in Heaven justice. (Yes, I know this can be seen as a lazy solution.)

Sekhmet
26-11-2006, 18:26
What exactly happenend in the way back when that was the war between the Old Ones and C'tan?

The Necrons were angsty and jealous, they gathered C'tan, who took over.


What ended it?

The C'tan-led Necrons beat down the Old Ones to near-extinction. Then the enslavers came and finished them off, as well as most sentient races, and basically had the Necrons and C'tan go into stasis since all their food was dying.



When did you humans get involved?

Humans hadn't evolved yet.



Any information for this time period would be helpful.
Read Necron Codex.

Sarge
26-11-2006, 18:37
So this Dawnlight blade is what many people beleive the be the Dawn Blade of Shas'o Viro'la Shovah Kaius Mont'yr?

FlashGordon
26-11-2006, 18:43
No. Never heard about anyone believing that, sorry. I would think its a Necron artefact.

Sarge
26-11-2006, 18:48
Think about it, does it sound like a necron weapon? It's a basically an evisorater that doesn't strike last.

Reinnon
26-11-2006, 19:11
reading the liber chaotica strongly suggests that the sword of khaine from warhammer was one of the swords made by vaul to fight the necrons

Studd_Beefpile
29-11-2006, 22:52
I have tried to produce an explanation for the duality of the War in Heaven (Ctan vs Old Ones / Khaine's faction vs Vaul's faction), and the best one (and the one I find most fitting) is that the Eldar are not locked in the mindset that a war has to be between two factions alone and that a human mind can't do the War in Heaven justice. (Yes, I know this can be seen as a lazy solution.)

The best way to have it all make sense is to assume that the eldar gods were originally a combination of warp entities, and old ones, and maybe even a C'tan. Before the fall, they were all, of course, warp entities, created from the belief of billions of eldar over the millions of years since the war in heaven.

IJW
29-11-2006, 23:51
By definition, the Eldar gods cannot have ever been C'Tan as C'Tan cannot exist in the warp.

Voodoo Boyz
30-11-2006, 00:00
Where can I read more about the eldar war in the heavens? I don't have the new Eldar Dex yet, and haven't had a chance to read the fluff in it. Is it in there or is there an online source I could check out?

Commander Ozae
30-11-2006, 00:04
Yes, the sword of Khaine from fantasy is implied to be one of the Blade-Wraiths, but i severly doubt that Commander Farsight's Dawnblade is Anaris, it wouldn't make any sense especially because it is the most powerful weapon except the Talismans of Vaul themselves and if the eldar knew about it they would sure try to get it back.

Sarge
30-11-2006, 00:36
Doesn't have to make sense to create speculation, and speculation sells, as GWS knows all too well.

Hellebore
30-11-2006, 02:01
The only similarity the weapon has is its name.

Its design looks nothing like an eldar weapon, it was found on an extinct 'artifact' world called Arthas Moloch, in the middle of a mysterious attack by unknown assailants that killed all the ethereals.

And it certainly doesn't exhibit the power ascribed to the most powerful weapon ever created bar the talismen themselves.
S5 ignores armour and 2d6 armour penetraction? Piffle! The fire axe carried by Fuegan does exactly the same thing, and it certainly is no god weapon.

Hellebore

Sekhmet
30-11-2006, 02:12
It actually kind of resembles an oversized warscythe minus the gauss blaster.

Zzarchov
30-11-2006, 02:37
By definition, the Eldar gods cannot have ever been C'Tan as C'Tan cannot exist in the warp.

Sure they can, anything the eldar worship can be an eldar god, by definition. You don't need to be in the warp to be a god..only worshipped. Which was the point of the poster on the matter.

DantesInferno
30-11-2006, 05:26
Its design looks nothing like an eldar weapon...
Would you expect a weapon designed by an Eldar God to look like the weapons the Eldar create 60 million years later, anyway? The Talismans of Vaul/Blackstone Fortresses are of the same era, and they don't look anything like modern Eldar design to me.


And it certainly doesn't exhibit the power ascribed to the most powerful weapon ever created bar the talismen themselves.
S5 ignores armour and 2d6 armour penetraction? Piffle! The fire axe carried by Fuegan does exactly the same thing, and it certainly is no god weapon.


Would you expect such a weapon to be anywhere near its full potential in the hands of a Tau, particularly considering their weak psychic presence?

Hellebore
30-11-2006, 06:10
Would you expect a weapon designed by an Eldar God to look like the weapons the Eldar create 60 million years later, anyway? The Talismans of Vaul/Blackstone Fortresses are of the same era, and they don't look anything like modern Eldar design to me.


Considering the eldar have there own design asthetic, and the personality of a god is based on that specific aspect of the race that formed it, then YES, it should.
The eldar fight in aspects of Khaine, they design in aspects of Vaul. You can't possibly be claiming that an eldar god of craft formed of eldar souls and personified by eldar emotion would design things completely differently to the race that formed it.

That's like followers of khorne using psychic powers to kill instead of their hands, because the way Khorne fullfills its function is different to how his worshippers do it.



Would you expect such a weapon to be anywhere near its full potential in the hands of a Tau, particularly considering their weak psychic presence?

It depends on what attributes the weapon had. Is it completely reliant on the presence of a soul to work properly, or is it a 'bound' weapon, like Drach'nyen - its power contained within it independent of the weilder?

This question seems to be cyclic, there was a thread here only couple of months ago asking the same thing.

Inquisitor Engel, who was (according to himself) a playtester for GW, has also stated previously that the Studio have said it is definitely not Anaris, nor is it a necron weapon.

How true this is I don't know, but there is no evidence apart from its name that it is in ANY way even related to Anaris.

The logic that its name being similar some how makes it the same weapon is flawed to begin with.

The eldar have chainswords, the imperium has chainswords, it does not mean that an imperial chainsword is an eldar one.

And this is the problem, people latch onto similarities in names and use it as evidence. Who named O'Shovah's sword anyway? Did he give it the name himself?

Does that mean any other similarly named weapons are also Anaris?

There is an imperial space ship called the Retribution class, there is also an imperial tank called a Retributor. The similarity in name is directly analogous to Anaris and the Dawnblade, yet no one is claiming the retributor is a space ship in disguise.

A bit ridiculous, but I find the argument surrounding the Dawnblade based on its frickin' NAME just as stupid.

Hellebore

Studd_Beefpile
30-11-2006, 07:38
Sure they can, anything the eldar worship can be an eldar god, by definition. You don't need to be in the warp to be a god..only worshipped. Which was the point of the poster on the matter.

Right. By the time of the Fall, obviously, all the eldar gods existed as warp entities, because of millions of years of Eldar belief. However, in the begining, it might have been a "mortal" entity of great power that told the eldar he was a god, but was in truth a c'tan, or an old one, or my cousin willy.

DantesInferno
30-11-2006, 11:52
Considering the eldar have there own design asthetic, and the personality of a god is based on that specific aspect of the race that formed it, then YES, it should.
The eldar fight in aspects of Khaine, they design in aspects of Vaul. You can't possibly be claiming that an eldar god of craft formed of eldar souls and personified by eldar emotion would design things completely differently to the race that formed it.

My point was that Eldar 60 million years ago would surely have a different design aesthetic to those of the post-Fall climate. It could even be vastly different. I refer again to the Blackstone Fortresses, they look wildly different to modern Eldar design. And yet they were made by the same Eldar god.




It depends on what attributes the weapon had. Is it completely reliant on the presence of a soul to work properly, or is it a 'bound' weapon, like Drach'nyen - its power contained within it independent of the weilder?

Quite. We simply don't know. So you can't rule out the possibility that the Dawnblade is Anaris merely because its damage in the hands of a Tau isn't as high as you would expect.


A bit ridiculous, but I find the argument surrounding the Dawnblade based on its frickin' NAME just as stupid.


Yes, of course. The name-link is very tenuous indeed. However, there isn't enough evidence to definitively rule out the possibility that it is the Eldar sword of legend. I don't think anyone out there is saying that Farsight's sword is definitely Anaris (they're wrong if they are saying that), merely that the sword could be Anaris.

Forbiddenknowledge
30-11-2006, 12:18
The only reason I hold that O'shovah's blade is Anaris, is because of the cool factor. It would just be cool if it was.

And considering the Eldar's use of psychic tech, its entirely feasible that Anaris in the hands of a blunt would be pretty weak, it probably needs the connection with a psychic to fully awaken it.

Commander Ozae
30-11-2006, 20:42
Probably, but then why would he find it on a dead world which seems to indicate the necrons.

Brizzle
30-11-2006, 21:29
The Talismans of Vaul look much more Eldar than you think. The outer docking bays and weapon structures were added later. When viewed from above, the Blackstone Fortresses have the shape of the Chaos star. It's original shape is more pyramidal (however, pyramids are kind of a Necron thing). Does anyone know if the Blackstone Fortress model pre-dates Codex: Necrons?

Personally, judging by the Avatar being a daemon, I believe the Eldar gods to be Warp-entities to some degree. Afterall, the Eldar did create Slaanesh with their unintended psychic might.

As to the two wars in heaven, it seems that the C'tan-Old Ones war would probably predate the Khaine-Vaul one. Maybe the latter is a misremembrance (is that even a real word?) of the former.

ImmortalPariah
21-12-2006, 22:32
the humans did exist during the war with the old ones and the ctan. that is why Nightbringer is known to the humans as the Grim Reaper, and Deciever as Satan. plus, its the fault of the space marines that the Nightbringer is even back in the first place. they opened his tomb, and then his stasis coffin. end of story for that.

Norminator
10-02-2007, 19:18
Um... no, humans were not around. The WoH occured around 65 million years ago + - infact I recall fluff mentioning that the Nightbringer hurling asteroids around killed off the dinosaurs.

The reason we see the Nightbringer as the Grim Reaper is a 'genetic memory' that was allegedly planted onto the forebearers of humanity (presumably rodents and the like).

Kandarin
11-02-2007, 03:55
Probably, but then why would he find it on a dead world which seems to indicate the necrons.

The overwhelming majority of worlds in the galaxy are dead worlds.